Jesus Loves His Enemies…and Then Kills Them All

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

^^^^ Brother Amigo, don't take out portions of my posts and interpret them out of context. Read the entire thing first and then respond. I have given an example of how love can come in the way of justice in my previous post. Go through it comprehensively.

I am very sensitive about people picking out portions of posts and interpretating them out of context. I would not do that, if I did, please clarify for me. What I picked, was what seems to me to be both a heading and a summary of what you said.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam) was the most kind and gentle human being yet he was also very just. He never stepped back from bringing the culprits to justice. His love for a person did not stand in the way of treating that person's crime fairly. Justice and love aren't exactly compatible. Love can make you blind and make you overlook justice. If a mother ever finds her child guilty of some act then she may choose to cloud justice with her love and not try or punish the child at all.

Love does not make blind, on the contrary, it makes you see clearly.
It is lust that makes blind, and it is lust which is often mistaken for love.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

Justice is about the greater good. About doing the right thing even if it against yourself and against those who you love. If love ever comes in the way of justice then that's tyranny.

The commandment to love ennemis includes 'do good to them that hate you'. As I mentioned above, love is bout 'willing' the good of the other.
I am saying this to complete what I already said in answer to your this comment of yours. I hope you check it out before continuing.

One of the most common claim that Christians shout at is that their God loves everybody, including us Muslims. They most likely say this to try and make us feel good and happy, however so I don’t like the thought of that, that God loves everybody, does he love a rapist?

However so once again this claim that God loves us all as Christians commonly assert is yet another myth they have invented. Christians who have some knowledge of the Bible will know that their God does not love everyone, and saying he does is a lie and an invention in his name.

We now quote the relevant passages from the Bible showing that their God does indeed hate some people:

Psalm 5:1-6

¹ Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.
² Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.
³ My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.
⁴ For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
⁵ The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
⁶ Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Notice the verse says that God HATES workers of inequity, it does not say that God hates the sin or the crime, it explicitly says that God hates the WORKERS of inequity, this basically means God hates the men who commit sins and so on. This is enough to debunk this entire myth, but we shall post another verse to completely crush the myth:

Romans 9:13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Once again we see the God of the Bible hating someone. In fact as Paul wrote in Romans 9:13 as it is written, this means he is quoting the OT, so therefore let us get the direct quote from the OT:
Malachi 1:3: And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

So as you can see, the God of the Bible does not love everyone, this is a Christian propaganda tool that they use to try and fool us and make us convert to Christianity.

At the end of the day this all proves that Christians hardly know anything about their Bible, and all they know is what their lying church has told them, I call on Christians to read their Bible on their own, without a priest or some bishop over them who will simply distort what the Bible says and make things up. Some may object to me saying that Christians hardly know their Bible, well is that claim false? Nearly every single Christian goes around saying God loves all, yet the Bible explicitly says the opposite, this proves that they don’t really know their Bible nor have they bothered to read it.

In fact I call on Christians who have hardly read their Bible to read the Quran instead since it will be much better than them. But the choice is up to you.

The love of God on every man is not a Christian Claim, but a universal fact that only Christians acknowledge.
Everyone can see the sun rising on both good and bad, rain raining on both good and bad and more... Only Christians respect that as the holy will of God not yet tempered by corrupt men. Others seem to suppose that something is wrong and God needs their help to fix it, and come up with their own ideas of justice which are nothing but lusts for powers and dominations. If they had their way, they would stop that. They would change the course of the sun and regulate rain to make it rain on whom they approuve according to their idea of divine justice.

Christians who would propose 'love' in exchange of conversion would be engaging in corruption. Corruption is not motivated by love, but by lust. As I said, this is not 'love', it is lust.

About the Bible verses:

Who wrote or whose language do you find in those verses you quoted according to you?

The Bible is a book of the Chuch, actually, you should not be reading it without the blessing of the Church.
This is how it looks like when the Bible is interpreted without the blessing of a valid bishop.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

Love does not make blind, on the contrary, it makes you see clearly.
It is lust that makes blind, and it is lust which is often mistaken for love.

If so then in the mother-son example given by me, is the mother "lusting" the child? Really???

I feel it is just going off-topic.

God does love. When He loves someone then there's no comparison to that but at the same time God is incredibly strict in punishment as well. How can you talk about justice when the Christian "God" loves believers and sinners alike? How is that fair? It does not matter whether you hold fast to His commands or not because He'll love you regardless. And won't even punish the sinners. Rather just leave them to destroy each other encouraging even more iniquity.

The basic message Muslims keep trying to communicate to the Christian brothers is that they should follow the Bible, not the Church and see for themselves what the truth exactly is.

The Bible is a book of the Chuch, actually, you should not be reading it without the blessing of the Church.

lol at "blessing" ,its actually a curse and noone gives a **** about the so called "blessing" of those bible thumping , child molesting adulterers of the bible

God loving everyone would also mean that He has to love Satan. This Christian states that the Christian God loves Satan. How strange does that sound? This is because the Biblical perception of God shows that God hates people as well. .

Let us look at some verses of the Bible regarding God hating people...
Psalm 5:4-6
⁴ You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil;
with you the wicked cannot dwell.
⁵ The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;
you hate all who do wrong.
⁶ You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men
the LORD abhors.

Psalm 11:5
⁵ The LORD examines the righteous,
but the wicked and those who love violence
his soul hates.

Some Christians would argue back and say that the book of Psalms is a book of poetry and we cannot establish any doctrine related verdicts based on books of poetry. Even though this argument is unconvincing, we will accept it for the sake of argument and show statements from other books in the Bible which aren't poetic where God says that He hates some people.

Leviticus 20:23
²³ You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.
Leviticus 26:30
³⁰ I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.

Some Christians desperately reply back that God is intending to say that He hates the sin and not the sinners. This is clearly playing with the plain reading of the texts. However, there are clear verses that silence this argument...

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Here God is saying that He hated Esau. Esau is a person. Not an action. Esau is not a sin, but a sinner. So God clearly stated that He hated a sinner.
Also God clearly distinguishes between the sin and the sinner when he says that He hates them...

Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

So here we see that God hates false witnesses and people that cause discord between brethren. These appear to be sinners and not sins.
Some Christians try to argue back that the Hebrew words don't mean 'hate', but 'loves less'.
However, this is false.
The Hebrew word used for hate in Psalm 5:5,11:5 and Proverbs 6:16 is sane, which means...

1) to hate, be hateful
a) (Qal) to hate
1) of man
2) of God
3) hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)
b) (Niphal) to be hated
c) (Piel) hater (participle)
1) of persons, nations, God, wisdom

So here we see that none of the Hebrew words used in the passages quoted above mean 'love less'. In certain contexts they do, such as Deuteronomy 21:15. However we know that it means 'love less' in this context because we know that there are other verses in the Bible which state that a man should love his wife and we interpret 'hate' over here to mean 'love less' in order to reconcile between the two. But the passages that I quoted above have contexts that clearly show that the Hebrew words signify actual hatred.
The Hebrew word used for hate in Psalm 5:6 is ta`ab, which means...
1) to abhor, be abominable, do abominably
a) (Niphal) to be abhorred, be detested
1) in the ritual sense
2) in the ethical sense
b) (Piel)
1) to loathe, abhor, regard as an abomination
a) in the ritual sense
b) in the ethical sense
2) to cause to be an abomination
c) (Hiphil) to make abominable, do abominably
1) in the ritual sense
2) in the ethical sense

So here we don't see that the word means 'love less'. Also the context shows that it means absolute hate.
The Hebrew word used for hate in Leviticus 20:23 is quwts, which means...
1) to be grieved, loathe, abhor, feel a loathing or abhorrence or sickening dread
a) (Qal)
1) to feel a loathing at, abhor
2) to feel a sickening dread
b) (Hiphil)
1) to cause sickening dread
2) to cause loathing

So here we don't see that the word means 'love less'. Also, the context shows that the word means absolute hate.
The Hebrew word used for hate in Leviticus 26:30 is ga`al, which means...
1) to abhor, loathe, be vilely cast away, fall
a) (Qal) to abhor, loathe
b) (Niphal) to be defiled
c) (Hiphil) to reject as loathsome, show aversion

So here we see that none of the Hebrew words used in the passages quoted above mean 'love less'. In certain contexts they do, such as Deuteronomy 21:15, however we know that it means 'love less' in this context because we know that there are other verses in the Bible that state that a man should love his wife and we interpret 'hate' over here to mean 'love less' in order to reconcile between the two. But the passages that I quoted above have contexts that clearly show that the Hebrew words signify active hatred.
Some Christians argue that when Jesus used the word 'hate' in Luke 14:26 it meant 'love less' and not actual hate. However, there is evidence to suggest that this is what the word means, for if one reads Matthew 10:37 it will clarify the meaning.
However, the Old Testaments passages are clear that God hates. For example let us read Malachi 1:2-3...

² "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, ³ but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

Here God clearly distinguishes between loving Jacob and Esau. It would not make sense for God to say 'I loved Jacob' but 'Esau I loved less'. He would have said 'I love Jacob much' but 'loved Esau less' if this is what God intended to say. However, God made it clear that He loved Jacob but hated Esau. There is no point in using the word 'hate' to emphasize this. Even the title of the chapter says "Jacob Loved, Esau Hated". Why the differentiation? If Esau was loved less then it means that both Jacob and Esau were loved, not only Jacob.
Some Christians argue back that it was only the God of the Old Testament that hated, but now the God of the New Testament loves and they quote John 3:16. However, John 3:16 could be interpreted to mean that God offered His love to the world, but if people rejected it, then He hates them. Either way this argument makes no sense. For it would basically put forth the proposition that the nature of God changed and that He now loves wicked people. But we know that God's nature doesn't change (Malachi 3:6). Plus, let's say that God could change His nature. Does that mean He was a bad God and then became a good God and started to love everyone?
Also, let's not forget that there is a difference of opinion regarding the interpretation of John 3:16:
The Five-Point Calvinist changes the meaning of the word "world" here and adds to the Word of God by placing immediately behind it two words, "the elect."

Plus we see in Romans 9:13, that Paul quotes the Old Testament passage from Malachi 1:2 that states that God hated Esau. Why would Paul quote that passage to remind us that God hates someone?
Some Christians would argue back that it is possible that God can both love and hate at the same time. God hating someone does not mean that He can't love them as well. I agree with this. I have no objections to that.

However, these Christians will argue that no where in the entire Bible does it show that God does not love anyone. This is where I have to disagree. The Bible does make it clear that God does not love certain people.

Let us look at the following passage:

Hebrews 12:6-8

⁶because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
⁷Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? ⁸If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

Notice that:

- God disciplines those whom He loves.
- There are those who are not disciplined.

The conclusion logically follows and that is:

- There are those whom God does not love.

John Gill in his commentary stated:

All men are not the objects of God's love, only a special people, whom he has chosen in Christ; for whom he has given his Son, when they were sinners and enemies; whom he quickens and calls by his grace, justifies, pardons, and accepts in Christ; and whom he causes to love him; these he loves with an everlasting and unchangeable love, and in a free and sovereign way, without any regard to any motive or condition in them.

Elsewhere in the Bible it states:

Romans 8:38-39

³⁸For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,^[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, ³⁹neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This verse is speaking about how God's saints will never separate from the love of God. The verse makes it clear that the love of God is in "Christ Jesus". It is because those saints take Jesus as their Lord and Savior that they will not be separated from the love of God.

Notice that:

- One will not be separated from God's love if he believes in Christ Jesus as Lord.
- There are those who do not believe in Christ Jesus as Lord.

The conclusion logically follows and that is:

- There are those whom God does not love.

Another passage is:

Deuteronomy 7:12-13

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land-your grain, new wine and oil-the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you.

Notice how God's love is conditional based on whether one would abide by His laws.

Hence, we see that:

- God will only love those who obey His laws.
- There are those who don't obey God's laws.

The conclusion comes logically:

- There are those whom God does not love.

One Christian in a sermon refutes the arguments that other Christians put forth to prove that the Biblical God loves everyone:

16. But . does not the Bible teach that God loved the world?

A. Yes, the Bible teaches that God loved the world in John 3:16.
B. This is the "gospel in a nutshell," many say. They say, "This is all I need and all I want." But it is merely one verse out of 31,173. Every word of God is pure, and helps explain the others.
C. But this oft-quoted, never-understood verse does not say that God loves every single human without exception so very much and so very badly that He had to send His son to try to save them all, with the overall project being a colossal failure in that most are not saved at all.
D. The whole issue with this popular corruption of the verse is the definition of the word "world." But what of 12:19; 14:17; 15:19; 16:20; 17:14?
E. First, if we force world to mean every single descendant without exception or distinction, then we have a serious contradiction with all we have already read and studied in the perfect Bible.
F. Second, if we force world to mean every single descendant without exception or distinction, then we create a whole basket full of absurdities and contradictions elsewhere in the Bible.
G. Jesus is speaking to a ruler of the Jews and laying heavy doctrine on him. He has described the new birth that blew his mind, now he points out a dying Messiah, who would die for Gentiles.
H. Whomever God loved, He gave His Son for them, meaning the elect (Jn 6:39; 10:11; 17:2-3).
I. And true to John's purpose for writing, believers only can know eternal life was purchased for them (John 20:31; I John 5:13).
J. Jesus had already made crystal clear that sovereign regeneration had to precede any belief, which is granted only to the elect (John 1:12-13; 3:3,8).
K. There is a sermon and extensive outline explaining John's own interpretation of John 3:16.


17. But . does not the Bible teach that God is love?

A. Yes, the Bible teaches that God is love in I John 4:8 and I John 4:16.
B. But these words do not prove (1) God is only love, (2) God loves all men, (3) God loves any man, (4) God loves you, (5) how long God loves, or (6) just about any thing else you imagine.
C. It simply and only teaches that one characteristic of God is that He loves, and He does love.
D. But He is also holy and righteous, which John introduced first in this very epistle (I John 1:5).
E. While God is love, God cannot love sin or sinners, as we have clearly proved in other places.

18. But does not the Bible teach that God loves us as sinners?

A. Yes, the Bible teaches that God loved us when we were yet sinners (Romans 5:8).
B. However, in what sense(s) we were still sinners? This is the key, for we were already in Christ.
C. When we read the personal pronouns "us" and "we" in context with God's love and Christ's death, we are not to understand a letter written from heaven to the whole human race!
D. We were still sinners vitally and practically before our regeneration and conversion, when Christ died for us. But we had been loved eternally long before the cross of Calvary.


Thus, we have clearly shown according to the Bible that God does not love certain people.

The purpose of this was not to criticize the God of the Bible for hating and not loving the wicked people, but it is only to show that if Christians want to attack the Quranic perception of God because of this then they are shooting themselves in the foot by attacking the same concept of God found in the Bible.

And it was given unto him (the beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If any man have an ear, let him hear.
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
revelation 13

O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman.
But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord.
After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.
In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding;
that ye may restrain yourselves.

Quran 2:178-179

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

If so then in the mother-son example given by me, is the mother "lusting" the child? Really???

Mothers who don't discipline their childreen in the name of 'love' are not loving, but lusting ofter the love of their childreen. They want to keep 'peace' with their childreen because they lust after this peace...they are blind to the fact that it is not true peace just as their love is not true love. True love seek the good of the other, therefore, it corrrect the others when they are wrong and does not leave them in error unless they themselves persists in it.

When a loved one is sick, and you don't take him to hospital because the doctor's treatment will be too painful, you are not loving as you suppose. Love does not mind the pain as long as greater good is acheived: healing.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

God does love. When He loves someone then there's no comparison to that but at the same time God is incredibly strict in punishment as well. How can you talk about justice when the Christian "God" loves believers and sinners alike? How is that fair? It does not matter whether you hold fast to His commands or not because He'll love you regardless. And won't even punish the sinners. Rather just leave them to destroy each other encouraging even more iniquity.

He is strict in punishment because of his love.
If you knew the love of God and his righteousness, you would realise that iniquity is a punishment already.
Therefore a sinner who have finally discovered that pray God to save him from his iniquity.
A righteous pray God to protect him from sinning because he understands that iniquity is punishment.

Love is the command. One who is not loving is already under judgement for failing to love. Whatever sin they do after is punishment.
As a wise man put it, He punishes us by letting us prosper in our sins, by letting us go addicted to our vices, and when we hit rock-bottom and beg him to save us from our misery, we have seen his salvation.


Brother, you are attributing human sense of justice and faireness to God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

He is strict in punishment because of his love.
If you knew the love of God and his righteousness, you would realise that iniquity is a punishment already.
Therefore a sinner who have finally discovered that pray God to save him from his iniquity.
A righteous pray God to protect him from sinning because he understands that sin is its own punishment.

Brother, you are attributing human sense of justice and faireness to God.

That's the attitude of a believer who is regretful of his past or has kept himself pure from the beginning solely for the sake of God. I repeat, the attitude of a "BELIEVER".

On the other hand, there are remorseless people as well. Those humans who don't have any regret with regards to their sin. They never realize that sinning is bad and keep on with it. It is the disbelieving class. Some of them who don't even believe in God to begin with. For them sin is not a punishment, rather the only way of happiness because they have never tasted the sweetness of faith.

Ultimately with your last post, you just proved it to me that God's love is a punishment for a believer when he sins (not every human, only believers). Indirectly, you agree that God loves only the faithful.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

Love is the command. One who is not loving is already under judgement for failing to love. Whatever sin they do after is punishment.
As a wise man put it, He punishes us by letting us prosper in our sins, by letting us go addicted to our vices, and when we hit rock-bottom and beg him to save us from our misery, we have seen his salvation.

What about those who never hit rock bottom? Who die disbelieving?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

What about those who never hit rock bottom? Who die disbelieving?

Every sinner hit rock bottom, it is the habit of denial which makes it appear that they haven't hit it yet. If they persist in their denial to the end, well, they will believe when they get to the other sin, but it will be too late for them to do something about it. That's part of Hell, they would like to do something but can't. Eternal regret.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

That's the attitude of a believer who is regretful of his past or has kept himself pure from the beginning solely for the sake of God. I repeat, the attitude of a "BELIEVER".

Sorry, I don't get this. If he is pure from the beginning, then what past are you talking about of which he is regretful?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

On the other hand, there are remorseless people as well. Those humans who don't have any regret with regards to their sin. They never realize that sinning is bad and keep on with it. It is the disbelieving class. Some of them who don't even believe in God to begin with. For them sin is not a punishment, rather the only way of happiness because they have never tasted the sweetness of faith.

Well, I trust God's unfailing justice with them. I am sure He is self-sufficient and does not need my help to discipline people.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

Ultimately with your last post, you just proved it to me that God's love is a punishment for a believer when he sins (not every human, only believers). Indirectly, you agree that God loves only the faithful.

Well, you have a right to your assumption!

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

God is love and God does not change.
Hatred and evil can weaken the love of creatures, but not the love that is God.
God is most high, and most powerful, his love can not be conquered by any evil or hatred, nor weakened.

This is heaven for those who love truly, but hell for those who have chosen hatred.

The true heaven in one's heart is when God alone is the object of love and aspiration. True love towards God is to know God for who He is and to describe Him as He has described himself – the one whom none is equal to.

Describing God as love alone is irrational. If God is all love, the devil himself is beloved to Him. The evil committed against Him is beloved to Him and all wrong that he detests and forbids is beloved to Him.

Love means being heartbroken; it means being emotional; it means being blind to the truth if it intensifies – is this God?

format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce

God loving everyone would also mean that He has to love Satan.

God does not change. His love does not change and He loves what He made, for all that He made is good.
What change is his relationship to his creatures.
How does this relationship change? because God changed? No. Because the creature changed.

God is love. By nature, compatible with righteousness, while incompatible with unrighteousness.
When a creature deviates from the way of righteousness and seals itself in it, it sets itself irreversibly against God.


God loves men but not their sins. It is this love which saves those who repent.
No one can repent without the love of God. And those who don't repent can't justify it by saying that God did not love them. They know that God loves them, that's why their unrepentance/pride turture them for when eternal light shine on them, they will have no one else to blame but themselves.

On Last judgement, there will be in so much light that sinners won't even be able to denie or lie about anything, the truth and their guilt will be plain to them. They won't even claim that God hates them, for his love for them will also be plain to their eyes and heart. Therefore, they will have no one else to blame for their wrong but their pride. No one but themselves, and their will do so for all eternity, for they have changed their nature into blaming. They used to accuse saints day and night, now, they will accuse themselves without ceasing. They used to judge others, now, they will judge themselves with the same passion, without ceasing. All this in accordance to what they have made themselves into and sealed themslves in on the moment of their death.

Truth will be plain to all, but it will delight the saints, but condemn the prideful.
Truth hurts.
Eternally speaking, it is Hell.

format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif

Love means being heartbroken; it means being emotional; it means being blind to the truth if it intensifies – is this God?

God is love and God is truth...
In one: God is true love.

What you are describing is a not true love. True love is not blind. It is attentive to everything and nothing escape it.
What's blind is lust.

you seem sincere amigo so i will ask you with the hope that you will look at it carefully, who is this?

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19

Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth....
....But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
Isaiah 63

Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come;
and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
11Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Genesis 49

scroll to 1 min 22 seconds:

Who does it say that it is?
What kind of sword is handled by a mouth?
What's the relationship between wine and blood?

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

Every sinner hit rock bottom, it is the habit of denial which makes it appear that they haven't hit it yet. If they persist in their denial to the end, well, they will believe when they get to the other sin, but it will be too late for them to do something about it. That's part of Hell, they would like to do something but can't. Eternal regret.

Is it the same hell where the sinners are left to destroy each other and are allowed sin openly and freely?

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

Sorry, I don't get this. If he is pure from the beginning, then what past are you talking about of which he is regretful?

Believers are of two kinds, one who is pure from the very beginning, the other who has sinned here and there but is now regretful of his past. I meant both the kinds. Sorry I made it confusing.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

Well, I trust God's unfailing justice with them. I am sure He is self-sufficient and does not need my help to discipline people.

But you said God is not going to discipline them. He'll pool them together and let them wreak havoc and tear each other into pieces.

format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo

Well, you have a right to your assumption!

I assumed so because like you said it is a punishment to be sinning AFTER HAVING REALIZED GOD'S LOVE. The one who realizes Allah's love is called a believer. The sinner can never feel that way. Your theory of the sin itself being the punishment is applicable only to the faithful. Every human is not a believer but every believer is human. I suppose our theories of God's love towards humanity is very similar. The only difference is the Qur'an and the Bible give enough prove to state that God's love is only reserved for the believers and He hates the wrongdoers. While the Church says God loves all (which includes satan, pharaoh, the rapists, george w. bush, adolf hitler, serial killers) and other man-made flawed theories. What we believe is exclusive to the believers, you "CHURCHians" believe it to be the birth right of every human.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

Is it the same hell where the sinners are left to destroy each other and are allowed sin openly and freely?

A sinner is never free.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

Believers are of two kinds, one who is pure from the very beginning, the other who has sinned here and there but is now regretful of his past. I meant both the kinds. Sorry I made it confusing.

Thanks for clarifying.
How does a sinner turn regretful without the help of God, if God helps him, how so since God hates sinners according to you?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

But you said God is not going to discipline them. He'll pool them together and let them wreak havoc and tear each other into pieces.

That may be the appropriate discipline for a specific type of people. I see it at work in the world all the time.