I would like an explanation of the following verse in regards to women covering their heads. It is clear to me that the Bible commands it, yet I never see Christian women following this, other than Amish or Mennonites. Why?
"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.7For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels."
1 Corinthians 11:3, taken from the English Standard Version
Also, for Catholics, it is written in the 1917 Canon Law (1262) that a woman must cover her head. Why is this not followed?
Also, for Catholics, it is written in the 1917 Canon Law (1262) that a woman must cover her head. Why is this not followed?
When the most important of God's commandments (ie. Worship only ONE God, Do not bow down to likeness and idols, do not make ANY images of whats in heaven, earth etc) are not followed, would you expect lesser ones to be followed?
I would like an explanation of the following verse in regards to women covering their heads. It is clear to me that the Bible commands it, yet I never see Christian women following this, other than Amish or Mennonites. Why?
"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. 7For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels."
1 Corinthians 11:3, taken from the English Standard Version
Continue at least until the end of the chapter.
It is a disgrace for women to be uncovered, not so much by clothing, but just covered, God meant it naturally by giving them long hair and making it clear that long hair are appropriate for women.
Women like to talk and to listen. In other words, they are more prone to keep thinging about others and listening to their stories. Their heads should not be so busy with the spirit of gossip. A covered head is a sign of no entry to thoughts or words from outside exept by the one who can move their head covering (their husband). Covering a head should mean that that head is not welcoming gossip (ears covered...).
The point is about honesty in obediance. Is the woman honestly listening to her husband, or she is listening to Oprah, Dr. Phil, or every body. If she is listening to her husband, then covering her head will not be a lie, but a sign to the world that she listen to her husband, no recommandation from other third party for authority to look up to.
But if she listens to other people, but not to her husband, then covering her head will be a lie, and therefore a greater sin.
format_quote Originally Posted by .iman.
Also, for Catholics, it is written in the 1917 Canon Law (1262) that a woman must cover her head. Why is this not followed?
The Church does not pretend this to be a commandement of God. The commandments are for honesty in obediance. Honestly covered women are better than thousands of pharisee women.
Covering heads is a sign and signs must be honest or it is a greater sin to actualy use them.
Many catholics are not practicing their faith, this is a big sin already, add to that an other sin of hypocrisy, that would be worse. But there is a movement of faithful women who are trying to live the truth of head coverings as it used to be. Of course nuns are mostly covered as they are more radical in faithfulness and their lives' settings make it easy to live out the honesty which must go with the sign.
"Happy the nation that knows the cry of praise! They will walk in the light of your presence, Lord,
and rejoice in your name all the day – for you are the splendour of their strength,
and by your good will our standard is held high." Ps.88
It is a disgrace for women to be uncovered, not so much by clothing, but just covered, God meant it naturally by giving them long hair and making it clear that long hair are appropriate for women.
Women like to talk and to listen. In other words, they are more prone to keep thinging about others and listening to their stories. Their heads should not be so busy with the spirit of gossip. A covered head is a sign of no entry to thoughts or words from outside exept by the one who can move their head covering (their husband). Covering a head should mean that that head is not welcoming gossip (ears covered...).
The point is about honesty in obediance. Is the woman honestly listening to her husband, or she is listening to Oprah, Dr. Phil, or every body. If she is listening to her husband, then covering her head will not be a lie, but a sign to the world that she listen to her husband, no recommandation from other third party for authority to look up to.
But if she listens to other people, but not to her husband, then covering her head will be a lie, and therefore a greater sin.
Well this is to be expected.
Whenever there is commandment from God or teaching from prophet Jesus (pbuh) that christians do not agree or do not want to follow, they would write long convoluted words like the above to say that it's all parable, metaphor, or abrogated.
Even to justify adultery, early pagan latin christians invented pericpe adulterae (john7:53 - 8:11) and inserted it into latin vulgate john's gospel when no such passage existed in codex alexandrinus, vaticanus nor sinaiticus.
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
The Church does not pretend this to be a commandement of God. The commandments are for honesty in obediance. Honestly covered women are better than thousands of pharisee women.
No need to pretend that it's not God's commandment.
Even if it's God's most important commandents such as worship ONE god and make NO images/likeness and NO bowing to them, you christians break them anyway.
Continue at least until the end of the chapter.
It is a disgrace for women to be uncovered, not so much by clothing, but just covered, God meant it naturally by giving them long hair and making it clear that long hair are appropriate for women.
Women like to talk and to listen. In other words, they are more prone to keep thinging about others and listening to their stories. Their heads should not be so busy with the spirit of gossip. A covered head is a sign of no entry to thoughts or words from outside exept by the one who can move their head covering (their husband). Covering a head should mean that that head is not welcoming gossip (ears covered...).
The point is about honesty in obediance. Is the woman honestly listening to her husband, or she is listening to Oprah, Dr. Phil, or every body. If she is listening to her husband, then covering her head will not be a lie, but a sign to the world that she listen to her husband, no recommandation from other third party for authority to look up to.
But if she listens to other people, but not to her husband, then covering her head will be a lie, and therefore a greater sin.
I'm not really followingyou here. I understand your explanation is that a head covering isnot a material item (ie: piece of cloth) but it is metaphoricallyspeaking to say that a woman shouldn't let bad thoughts into her mind(like gossip), therefore, she should protect/cover her head fromthose thoughts? I don't agree with that explanation because it isclear that the verse is talking about a physical veil. Look atpictures of women from biblical times, take the Virgin Mary - she iscovered. Catholic Nuns also wear a head covering. What aboutwedding veils? They are supposed to represent purity and chastity,not a symbol to show that they are protecting themselves from evilgossip.
You also mentioned thatGod had given women long hair to cover themselves, but in this verse,it specifically states that if they don't cover themselves, then theymust cut their hair short.
Also, I did some researchmyself regarding the Canon law, and it was left out of the 1983 CanonLaws, therefore, it was abrogated, and replaces the previous code. This means that it is no longer REQUIRED to be followed, but thecustom can't be legislatively prohibited.
How does the Catholicchurch keep changing its rules when the message in the bible hasn'tchanged?
Why would a church make uprules if no one is going to follow them? Even if people don't followthe Canon laws, shouldn't they honor St. Paul's words in the bible?
While it is not universally required, most Orthodox Christian churches expect women to cover their heads. Here is an exemplary Orthodox service in Abkhazia, where you can see that all women have their heads covered:
I do not much like to take the tone of a moralist. But the danger of the baobabs is so little understood, and such considerable risks would be run by anyone who might get lost on an asteroid, that for once I am breaking through my reserve. "Children," I say plainly, "watch out for the baobabs!"
I do not much like to take the tone of a moralist. But the danger of the baobabs is so little understood, and such considerable risks would be run by anyone who might get lost on an asteroid, that for once I am breaking through my reserve. "Children," I say plainly, "watch out for the baobabs!"
Women like to talk and to listen. In other words, they are more prone to keep thinging about others and listening to their stories. Their heads should not be so busy with the spirit of gossip. A covered head is a sign of no entry to thoughts or words from outside exept by the one who can move their head covering (their husband). Covering a head should mean that that head is not welcoming gossip (ears covered...).
format_quote Originally Posted by .iman.
4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head
Considering your explanation, does this part of those verses mean that a man should keep his head open to all kinds of nonsense to honor his head (which here has also been referred to as God). :grumbling
Your explanation gives the picture that a man is allowed to listen to tales of all kinds to show his honor to God which I believe is not considered appropriate in any religion at all. The verses are very clear in demanding women to cover their head physically.
Many people claim to be believers of Christ and thorough Christians but the part of covering the head is highly ignored by most Christian women. Any proper explanation for that?
If Allah helps you, none can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, who is there after Him that can help you? And in Allah (Alone) let believers put their trust.
Surah Ale Imran : 160
It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:
The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) climbed up Uhud, accompanied by Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan, and the mountain shook with them. He struck it with his foot and said: “Stand firm, O Uhud, for there is no one on you but a Prophet or a Siddeeq or two martyrs.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3483)
Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Taala) does not inspire seeking forgiveness in a slave whom he wishes to punish.
I'm not really followingyou here. I understand your explanation is that a head covering isnot a material item (ie: piece of cloth) but it is metaphoricallyspeaking to say that a woman shouldn't let bad thoughts into her mind(like gossip), therefore, she should protect/cover her head fromthose thoughts? I don't agree with that explanation because it isclear that the verse is talking about a physical veil. Look atpictures of women from biblical times, take the Virgin Mary - she iscovered. Catholic Nuns also wear a head covering. What aboutwedding veils? They are supposed to represent purity and chastity,not a symbol to show that they are protecting themselves from evilgossip.
When a chaste woman does have a veil, she uses her hair to do the job the veil does. All head covering are simply and extentions/emphasis of their hair. Women use them instinctively for the same purpose. That's how God meant it. Speech and thoughts are also involved in chastity. So chaste women don't just cover their ears, but also their mouth even eyes when necessary. They protect from anything which may draw their attention from where it is supposed to be.
format_quote Originally Posted by .iman.
You also mentioned thatGod had given women long hair to cover themselves, but in this verse,it specifically states that if they don't cover themselves, then theymust cut their hair short.
As I said before, please read the whole chapter, otherwise, if you pick what you want for what you want it to mean, they will mean what you want it to mean and I for one, I don't interfere with the judgements of God.
format_quote Originally Posted by .iman.
Also, I did some researchmyself regarding the Canon law, and it was left out of the 1983 CanonLaws, therefore, it was abrogated, and replaces the previous code. This means that it is no longer REQUIRED to be followed, but thecustom can't be legislatively prohibited.
How does the Catholicchurch keep changing its rules when the message in the bible hasn'tchanged?
Living things changes as they grow, but their seeds remain the same.
"Happy the nation that knows the cry of praise! They will walk in the light of your presence, Lord,
and rejoice in your name all the day – for you are the splendour of their strength,
and by your good will our standard is held high." Ps.88
Considering your explanation, does this part of those verses mean that a man should keep his head open to all kinds of nonsense to honor his head (which here has also been referred to as God).
It means that they should confront all kinds of evil and not turn away from threats.
Women are fragile, turning away from threats and entrusting themselves to those who should defend them is the wisest way for them and it honors God.
Men are meant to protect women. They are not meant to face away from threats but to confront threats and protect women. This is how men are supposed to honor Christ, for he did not turn away from all evil and nonsense, he faced them head on and destroyed them, even the last ennemy: sin and death.
Last edited by Amigo; 10-18-2011 at 01:53 AM.
"Happy the nation that knows the cry of praise! They will walk in the light of your presence, Lord,
and rejoice in your name all the day – for you are the splendour of their strength,
and by your good will our standard is held high." Ps.88
When a chaste woman does have a veil, she uses her hair to do the job the veil does. All head covering are simply and extentions/emphasis of their hair. Women use them instinctively for the same purpose. That's how God meant it. Speech and thoughts are also involved in chastity. So chaste women don't just cover their ears, but also their mouth even eyes when necessary. They protect from anything which may draw their attention from where it is supposed to be.
As I said before, please read the whole chapter, otherwise, if you pick what you want for what you want it to mean, they will mean what you want it to mean and I for one, I don't interfere with the judgements of God.
Living things changes as they grow, but their seeds remain the same.
Should I hold my breath while waiting for you to furnish us with biblical verses to back up your long winded convoluted sentences above?
Again, Amigo, I am just trying to find a valid answer to my question. What is written in the bible must be followed by Christians, no?
I will continue on with the passage:
"13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God."
It is clearly written that women need to cover their heads. As previously mentioned, the hair of the women is her glory and femininity. But this doesn't mean that her hair is sufficient as the only cover for her- rather you have to reflect upon the previous verses - if a woman won't cover her head, then she must cut her hair, thus stripping her of her glory and femininity. (Verses 4 & 5). So, if you say that a woman's hair is enough to cover, then it completely negates verses 4 & 5.
format_quote Originally Posted by Amigo
Living things changes as they grow, but their seeds remain the same.
Fashions of women’s dress have changed and will continue to change, but Paul in this passage has explained very carefully that the headcovering symbolizes something which does not change. The last verse is saying that those who are contentious (those who want to argue against) then that there is no place for them to do so, because they do not have authority.
Thus, my final point about the Canon laws is that no priest- nor any human for that matter- has any right to overrule or abrogate any of God's laws. This is a contradiction of pure monotheism (which is supposed to be the First Commandment, right? Worship only ONE God). Pay attention to what is bolded, because even though it is referring to associating partners with ALLAH SWT, it can be applied to any other rules/regulations made up by others to suit their own needs. Allah SWT says in the Qur'an
"They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilah (God - Allah) La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)." (9:31 Muhsin Khan translation).
Canons are not absolute like dogmas. Canons should be followed as much as possible but the Church allows for pastoral discretion in modifying or relaxing certain canons. They are not treated as infallible commands in stone but as guidelines for church discipline to be applied by bishops. Ultimately it is up to bishops to decide how a given canon is applied, and often it is considered favorable in certain circumstances to relax a canon. This is called ekonomia in the Greek church.
That said I am speaking as an Orthodox Christian and the Roman Catholic viewpoint might be different. For one thing we have never actually abrogated canons.
Last edited by Iconodule; 10-18-2011 at 06:38 PM.
I do not much like to take the tone of a moralist. But the danger of the baobabs is so little understood, and such considerable risks would be run by anyone who might get lost on an asteroid, that for once I am breaking through my reserve. "Children," I say plainly, "watch out for the baobabs!"
Canons are not absolute like dogmas. Canons should be followed as much as possible but the Church allows for pastoral discretion in modifying or relaxing certain canons. They are not treated as infallible commands in stone but as guidelines for church discipline to be applied by bishops. Ultimately it is up to bishops to decide how a given canon is applied, and often it is considered favorable in certain circumstances to relax a canon. This is called ekonomia in the Greek church.
That said I am speaking as an Orthodox Christian and the Roman Catholic viewpoint might be different. For one thing we have never actually abrogated canons.
Again, Amigo, I am just trying to find a valid answer to my question. What is written in the bible must be followed by Christians, no?
I will continue on with the passage:
"13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God."
It is clearly written that women need to cover their heads. As previously mentioned, the hair of the women is her glory and femininity. But this doesn't mean that her hair is sufficient as the only cover for her- rather you have to reflect upon the previous verses - if a woman won't cover her head, then she must cut her hair, thus stripping her of her glory and femininity. (Verses 4 & 5). So, if you say that a woman's hair is enough to cover, then it completely negates verses 4 & 5.
Bible is not the 'Christian Constitution'
I believe that only God is our judge.
Please read again my previous answers, I have addressed the remaining issues on women and headcovering.
Last edited by Amigo; 10-20-2011 at 08:46 AM.
"Happy the nation that knows the cry of praise! They will walk in the light of your presence, Lord,
and rejoice in your name all the day – for you are the splendour of their strength,
and by your good will our standard is held high." Ps.88
That said I am speaking as an Orthodox Christian and the Roman Catholic viewpoint might be different. For one thing we have never actually abrogated canons.
But you have abrogated the most important of God's laws?
But you have abrogated the most important of God's laws?
One time I abrogated salamander news with deflatable kernel symbology.
I do not much like to take the tone of a moralist. But the danger of the baobabs is so little understood, and such considerable risks would be run by anyone who might get lost on an asteroid, that for once I am breaking through my reserve. "Children," I say plainly, "watch out for the baobabs!"
My grandmothers (catholic) used to wear veils over their hair when they went to church and you can still see some older women still do today but I never see young people do that. As for why people don't do this anymore that is like asking why some muslim women don't wear hijab? I guess it's each persons own decision what they want to do although growing up in a Catholic school I was never taught about covering my hair so I guess its just something they decided to ignore ?
My grandmothers (catholic) used to wear veils over their hair when they went to church and you can still see some older women still do today but I never see young people do that. As for why people don't do this anymore that is like asking why some muslim women don't wear hijab? I guess it's each persons own decision what they want to do although growing up in a Catholic school I was never taught about covering my hair so I guess its just something they decided to ignore ?
The analogy is incorrect.
No muslim scholars would ever say that hijab is not necessary, although the fiqh of hijab might be different, because hijab is commanded in the Qur'an and previous scriptures.
And you will never see a muslim woman perform shalah without hijab.
Meanwhile, the christians church leaders have altogether done away (ie. abrogated) the commandment to wear head covering for women.
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