What was Jesus accused of that people wanted to punish him for?

**cs80918** · 11-14-2011

What was the reason or reasons Jesus was tried?

**Crystal** · 12-09-2011

Originally Posted by Amigo

To reverse/undo the trespasses of Adam made when he was tried.

That is one of the biggest things that turned me away from Christianity - the idea that Adam & Eves sin is still with us today. I like the way in Islam no one is held responsible for other peoples sins - it makes more sense. It shows God is Just.

**MustafaMc** · 12-09-2011

Does the concept of original sin come from none other than Paul, the self-acclaimed Prophet to the Gentiles?

**Predator** · 12-09-2011

Originally Posted by Crystal

That is one of the biggest things that turned me away from Christianity - the idea that Adam & Eves sin is still with us today. I like the way in Islam no one is held responsible for other peoples sins - it makes more sense. It shows God is Just.

Christianity also says the same thing that no soul is responsible for others sins

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The problem is that christians want to make things easy for themselves so they can do whatever they like ,thats why they contradict this verse with another one and passed the buck onto Jesus and asking everyone to believe that Christ died for sins inorder to get "salvation

We Muslims are the true Christians as we are following whatever Jesus taught and did .

**Crystal** · 12-09-2011

Originally Posted by Airforce

Christianity also says the same thing that no soul is responsible for others sins

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The problem is that christians want to make things easy for themselves so they can do whatever they like ,thats why they contradict this verse with another one and passed the buck onto Jesus and asking everyone to believe that Christ died for sins inorder to get "salvation

That is true Airforce, but they will often come back with the illogical argument that Ezkiel is part of the Old Testament and the New Testament is more relevant which makes one wonder why they include the Old Testament in their various versions of the bible....

It seems harsh to criticise people who I was once like - I can only hope God opens their eyes to these contradictions too - I don't wish for anyone to believe in something that's false. May God guide us all.

**Grace Seeker** · 12-10-2011

Originally Posted by cs80918

What was the reason or reasons Jesus was tried?

From the Roman perspective, inciting insurrection because he allowed others to call him a king.

From the Jewish perspective, blasphemy because he made himself equal to God.

From the Christian understand of what God was doing, to reconcile the world to himself.

**Grace Seeker** · 12-10-2011

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Does the concept of original sin come from none other than Paul, the self-acclaimed Prophet to the Gentiles?

No. Paul might be the most well known advocate of that concept, but it did not originate with him. It was a part of the understanding of many within Judaism at that time. And even Paul's understanding of it has been colored by Martin Luther so that most people today read Paul through Luther's eyes and end up with him saying more than I believe Paul actually intended to say on that subject.

**MustafaMc** · 12-10-2011

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

It was a part of the understanding of many within Judaism at that time.

Do you have OT verses to support the concept of everyone bearing the guilt of Adam's sin?

**Ramadhan** · 12-10-2011

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

From the Jewish perspective, blasphemy because he made himself equal to God.

Actually, Jesus (pbuh) never made himself equal to God.
It was the deceit by those rabbis and scribes who didn't want to lose control over jewish population because Jesus (pbuh) corrected many of their incorrect teachings and Jesus (pbuh) tried to bring back the lost sheep of Israel to the true message brought by previous prophets (pbut) and direct worship and relationships to God (swt)

The deceits is actually pretty similar to what church leaders are now doing. Christians go through myriads of popes, priests, nuns, pastors, ministers, etc to in order to worship another man.

**Ramadhan** · 12-10-2011

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

From the Christian understand of what God was doing, to reconcile the world to himself.

Did you borrow this from Amigo's gobbledy-gook riddles book?

Does this mean that christians believe that people punished God because God wanted to take over the world?

If you like, you can clarify, but that is my understanding from what you wrote above.

**Ali_008** · 12-10-2011

**MustafaMc** · 12-10-2011

Is there another verse in the Bible that even hints at 'original sin' other than Romans 5:12-17, "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!"?

This book was written by Paul. Is there a verse written by anyone else that elucidates the doctrine of original sin that makes it clear everyone bears the guilt of Adam's sin and must go to Hell because of it unless he accepts Jesus as God and the sacrifice he supposedly made on the cross?

Notice also that the Quran compares the man Adam to the man Jesus in 3:59 "Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is."

**Insaanah** · 12-10-2011

In terms of core tenets of belief, I find the Qur'an to be the clearest and most unequivocal scripture. Anyone, Muslim or not, can pick up a translation, read it, and come away, knowing that Islamic beliefs are:

Allah is One, without any associates whatsover in His Exclusive Divinity.
He alone is worthy of being worshipped.
He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, siblings, parents, cousins, nor relatives of any sort.
He is eternal and does not die.
There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, the Creator of the Universe.
He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, no intermediaries, and no denying of God's existence either.
There are no sharers or associates whatsoever in His Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

Jesus is one of the highly esteemed messengers sent by God, to guide and warn humanity, and all the Messengers of God must be believed in. They were all human, and not divine in any way, and neither did they ever claim to be.

Each person is responsible for his/her own sins, and will be accountable for them on the Day of Judgement.

God can forgive at will all those who repent sincerely and ask for forgiveness.

The Qur'an is clear on what Jesus (peace be upon him) was, and what he was not:

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (5:75)

Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together. (4:172)

And they say: The Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but (those whom they call sons) are honored slaves. (21:26)

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (5:72)

They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. (5:17)

.....And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. (9:31 part)

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (4:171)

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. (5:116-117)

And they say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heaven and the earth is His. All are subservient unto Him. (2:116)

And say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence. (17:111)

And (we believe) that He--exalted be the glory of our Lord!--hath taken neither wife nor son. (72:3)

The truth is always clear, and not obscured by inconsistencies and contradictions. No convention of councils is needed to work out the core creed.

Originally Posted by Amigo

When you avoid truth, you also avoid evidence

You have summed yourself up concisely.

Peace.

**Salahudeen** · 12-10-2011

Originally Posted by Amigo

The crucifiction would not have happened if Man had not sinned. So God did not plan it anymore than He planned for Man to sin.
A simple parallel: You dont' plan to lift up your friend when he fell down unless you are planning to make him to fall down and the whole thing is a game for you. But when he fells, you lift him up if you can.

The reason for his death: Sin.
Sin is a murder of the Word of God. The physical/visible cruxifixion is just a culmination anf full manifestation of the relationship between God and Man.

So God created us thinking we would never sin and we would be like angels?

Why didn't he just make us into angels then if he expected us to never sin

or make a creation that was incapable of sinning if that's what he wanted.

**MustafaMc** · 12-10-2011

Originally Posted by Crystal

It seems harsh to criticise people who I was once like - I can only hope God opens their eyes to these contradictions too - I don't wish for anyone to believe in something that's false. May God guide us all.

I agree with you, Crystal. I hope that you are among those guided to the truth of Islam. Perhaps, I sometimes seem harsh as well, but it is a delicate balance between speaking what one believes is true and doing so in an unoffensive way. I think it best to not mince one's words, but rather speak straight forward what one believes is true with references to support those beliefs.

**Predator** · 12-10-2011

Originally Posted by Ali_008

lol that was hilarious , Thanks for the laugh

**جوري** · 12-10-2011

lol.. that's indeed hilarious

**MustafaMc** · 12-11-2011

That guy reminded me of John Lennon. Surely, he is a comedian and the video was a parody making fun of Christians and perhaps even of the Muslim who was taking him 'seriously'. Honestly, though I was embarrassed to watch someone being made the fool.

**MustafaMc** · 12-11-2011

If you look up Steven Chilton (co-host of 'Jesus Chatline') on FaceBook, he made a lengthy post on Nov 15 where he says, "We'll be able to say whatever we want in the chat without giving away the joke."

We've been had, guys.

**جوري** · 12-11-2011

I don't think the muslim chap was taking him seriously at all I think it was all in good fun and he seemed like he was having great fun with it! I haven't found a Christian yet to date to offer better than that .. Without exception there's either drivel, logorrhea or some kind of incomprehensible padded nonsense .. I refer you to our dear friend amigo and his predecessors Hugo and grace et. al ..they don't do better in realtime either and were it not for our political correctness we'd have a guffaw everyday!

**MustafaMc** · 12-11-2011

Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

were it not for our political correctness we'd have a guffaw everyday!

I try to be patient with Christians and other non-Muslims to the extent that they do not attack Islam and what we hold as precious. I do not see that it is appropriate for me to laugh at or ridicule others when I know that no one else in my family (except my wife) is a Muslim and except for the grace of Allah so also go I. I know first hand what it means to be a Christian and the sincerity they must feel, but I also know the joy of being shown the Truth and of being led out of the darkness of shirk. How can I laugh at those whom Allah has not yet willed to receive guidance?