islam is extremely straightforward. So much of it has to w/ intentions.... and the information is so easy to find online.
I agree.. christianity was anything but.
Serena
Ironically Christianity and their their scriptures, The Bible, are too very different things.
Christianity usually includes the belief in original sin, that Jesus was sacrificed to save mankind from its sins, and the trinity, including the idea of the manhood of God/Godhood of a man in the form of Jesus.
The concept of the Trinity and Jesus being God are concepts that weren't yet around for the earliest Christians, whose belief was still inherently Judaic and unitarian therefore they aren't found in the Bible. The notions of original sin and Jesus being sacraficed to save mankind from its sin come from the the Epistles by Paul of Tarsis, concepts/teachings which aren't found in the rest of the Bible (The Old Testament and the Gospels). Therefore, though one would expect reading The Bible would teach one a lot about Christianity, it doesn't because the majority of scriptures aren't ingrained with the kind of concepts that are later became embedded in Christianity.
You almost have it figured but there are some hits and misses there. The early Christians have the same theology, Paul just made it crystal clear. If you look as far back as Isaiah 53 it prophecies concern why Jesus was to come and die for our sin and how we all have gone astray turning everyone to his own way and how none are right. John 3:16 speaks of how God loves us and gave us His son to save us from sin. I can agree with dropping the term Christianity and follow the Bible if you want to live for God. But the Bible will show you that Christ is its message even without Paul, but Paul galvanized the message. Luke work with Paul. Read Luke 1, and see how carefully you get the full message from Luke.
Last edited by Burninglight; 02-08-2012 at 03:17 AM.
i suggest this books (available online )
The True Message of Jesus Christ
JESUS : A PROPHET, NOT A SON, OF GOD
He is a prophet yes, but more than one. Then why did God say, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please listen to Him?" If God called Him son, who are we to say different than what God spoke an an audible voice in front of witnesses recorded in the Bible?
Paul was the one who created the whole "god came down to earth and died because that is the only way god can redeem humans sins, and yet sins remain". This concept is never in the OT nor in the four canonical gospels and nor in any other hundreds gospels that were burned down and destroyed by nicea council and constantine.
He is a prophet yes, but more than one. Then why did God say, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please listen to Him?" If God called Him son, who are we to say different than what God spoke an an audible voice in front of witnesses recorded in the Bible?
According to bible, Jesus is not the only son of God:
Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.
Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.
Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12. "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7. "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6. "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4. "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2
As we can see, the use of the term "son of God" when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus' people.
Well then, was Jesus the only begotten son of God? Read Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.".
According to bible, Jesus is not the only son of God:
True, but Jesus was unique in that God spoke saying Jesus is His "Beloved Son in whom (He) I AM is well pleased hear ye Him." he never said that about the other prophets. He told us to listen to Jesus.
Last post for now, good night
True, but Jesus was unique in that God spoke saying Jesus is His "Beloved Son in whom (He) I AM is well pleased hear ye Him." he never said that about the other prophets. He told us to listen to Jesus.
Last post for now, good night
Try watching some debates on youtube to get a clearer picture of all the criticisms being laid out. Also, don't be afraid to use your intellect when thinking about these things. Does it really make sense to YOU that an almighty God would have a son (who was also somehow Himself), and then send that son to die a painful death for one of his creations? Does vicarious redemption even sound remotely just to you? Also remember that the Bible may not be as well preserved or free of error as you might have been told...
True, but Jesus was unique in that God spoke saying Jesus is His "Beloved Son in whom (He) I AM is well pleased hear ye Him." he never said that about the other prophets.
You keep shifting your stance and argument. Before this, you said that Jesus was special because he is God's son. And I have shown you from bible that God's sons is not only Jesus (pbuh). You call yourself "true biblical christian" and why is it that you are reluctant in obeying and listening to the bible verses that we showed you?
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
He told us to listen to Jesus.
And Jesus never told you to worship him, and yet christians worship him.
Does christians listen to Jesus(pbuh)?
You keep shifting your stance and argument. Before this, you said that Jesus was special because he is God's son. And I have shown you from bible that God's sons is not only Jesus (pbuh). You call yourself "true biblical christian" and why is it that you are reluctant in obeying and listening to the bible verses that we showed you?
I didn't shift my stance. I am simply elaborating on why he is special for being the son of God.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
And Jesus never told you to worship him, and yet christians worship him.
Does christians listen to Jesus(pbuh)?
That is true, but he never told me not to,. and he didn't stop others from worshipping him. Angels have stopped people from worshipping them, and the apostles have stopped people from trying to worship them, because of the miracles they did in the name of Jesus.
Try watching some debates on youtube to get a clearer picture of all the criticisms being laid out. Also, don't be afraid to use your intellect when thinking about these things. Does it really make sense to YOU that an almighty God would have a son (who was also somehow Himself), and then send that son to die a painful death for one of his creations? Does vicarious redemption even sound remotely just to you? Also remember that the Bible may not be as well preserved or free of error as you might have been told...
I do use my intellect, and I can say honestly it doesn't make sense; it is not reasonable, and I think and wonder why God could not just have given all forgivness without the death of Jesus. However, it is not logical that God always was having no beginning or end. It is not logical that God can see the past, present and future all at the same time. It is not logical that God can speak the worlds into existence and create life from nothing.
Don't forget the OT shadow representation of the Passover and of the sacraficed lambs for the sin of the people; Jesus is considered the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world for those that meet God on His terms. He fufills the shadow of the OT practice of shedding blood for atonement. The blood on the door post spared death to the first born from the death angel. Without the blood of Christ sprinkled on our hearts the death angel claims for hell.
So, if I throw out God's message of redemption through and only through Christ, how shall I escape the judgment as the Scriptures say of God if I neglect so great a salvation? If I don't believe and meet God on His terms, I might as well eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow I die.
It is written "God's ways are not our ways and as high as the heavens are from the earth are His ways from ours." So in all my intellect I don't care to lean to my own understanding, but I rather trust the word of God over man. For it is written: "There is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to death" It is written: "He that has the son has life; he that has not the son has not life, but the wrath of God abides on him" my intellect tells me I don't want the wrath of God hanging over my head. Do you?
I can see why your mood is stressed
Last edited by Burninglight; 02-08-2012 at 06:55 PM.
I didn't shift my stance. I am simply elaborating on why he is special for being the son of God.
Ephraim is also special for being the son of God, as he was the Firstborn.
so, are you going to worship him as well?
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
That is true, but he never told me not to,. and he didn't stop others from worshipping him.
Please show me the verses where he didn't stop others from worshipping him, the way christians are worshipping Jesus (pbuh) now.
Just because people fell at his feet does not mean they worshipped him, let alone worshipped him as God.
i can show you biblical verses where people "worshipped" other prophets such as David and Solomon (pbut).
Ephraim is also special for being the son of God, as he was the Firstborn.
so, are you going to worship him as well?
God didn't say of Ephraim "This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well please hear Him" Ephraim didn't give his life on the cross for the sin of the world; Ephraim wasn't without sin and the list can go on and on. Ephraim wasn't prophecied to be the Messiah and Everlasting father & Mighty God etc etc etc- Jesus was
Last edited by Burninglight; 02-09-2012 at 07:04 AM.
I think and wonder why God could not just have given all forgivness without the death of Jesus.
What about Matthew 6:12 in the Lord's Prayer And forgive us our debts (Luke 11:4 says 'forgive us our sins'),as we also have forgiven our debtors. What debt could we owe to God except that of sin? In verse 14 Jesus is quoted as saying For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father (God) will also forgive you. He did not say, "If you believe that I am God in the flesh and that I will die on the cross for your sins, then your heavenly Father will forgive you your sins."
A very similar passage follows Jesus apparently cursing a fig tree in Mark 11:24-25 Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you. Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.
Not that I believe Jesus said this, but he is quoted as saying 'uour sins are forgiven in Matthew 9:2 and Mark 2:5 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” There is no indication that the man even repented of his sins, but he was forgiven before Jesus' supposed death. If Jesus could forgive sins (I don't believe he can), then surely the Father could forgive sins per the Lord's Prayer.
Surely every Christian knows that 'blasphemy against the Spirit' will not be forgiven, but do they also know that every other sin shall be forgiven, presumably with repentance? Matthew 12:31 Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Note that blasphemy is an impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things. The Quran says in 19:88-92 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
Luke 7:46-47 gives another instance of forgiveness You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”
Not that I believe Jesus was crucified, but he is quoted as saying on the cross, But Jesus was saying, “ Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. Luke 23:34.
So, if I throw out God's message of redemption through and only through Christ, how shall I escape the judgment as the Scriptures say of God if I neglect so great a salvation?
Where besides the letters of Paul is the doctrine of 'redemption through Christ' taught? Surely not on the lips of Jesus!
Forgive my ignorance, but what was different? I thought that during Paul's life time is all early Christianity all the way until the time of Constantine. So what is specifically different before and after?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Paul was the one who created the whole "god came down to earth and died because that is the only way god can redeem humans sins, and yet sins remain". This concept is never in the OT nor in the four canonical gospels and nor in any other hundreds gospels that were burned down and destroyed by nicea council and constantine.
Paul got all his information from the Scriptures Look at Isaiah 53 and look at 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Is 53 : Who has believed what he has heard from us?[a]
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected[b] by men;
a man of sorrows,[c] and acquainted with[d] grief;[e]
and as one from whom men hide their faces[f]
he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;[g]
when his soul makes[h] an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see[i] and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,[j]
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,[k]
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.
Last edited by Burninglight; 02-13-2012 at 11:22 PM.
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