I believe that there is no verifiable scientific proof that Allah (swt) exists. By this I mean that no one has ever seen, smelled or touched Him. Moses conversed with Him through the burning bush, but we don't have a tape recording of the conversation. No one has measured or defined His nature other than what He has revealed in the Quran. Belief in Allah (swt) is the most fundamental belief that we Muslims and other theists have. Why do you believe in His existence?
My belief in Allah (swt) centers around the requirement I see for a Creator. This perceived need of a Creator is derived from my scientific knowledge (PhD in genetics and molecular biology, mash'Allah) and through the use of my mind to know that the universe and all life (as my friend Eric noted) did not arise by chance, but rather was created by a Higher Power that I know as Allah (swt). It is my choice to believe in Allah (swt) as it is the choice of others to disbelieve.
I will use an analogy that I have stated elsewhere. If I were to walk upon a beach and came upon three bricks (_ _ _) that were stacked on top of each other perfectly aligned like:
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I would conclude that someone came before me and stacked them up in that matter. The fact that there were no footprints left in the sand would not be proof that I was wrong and that the bricks instead became stacked by the random crashing of the waves on the shoreline. Rather I would conclude that these waves erased the footprints of the person who stacked the bricks while leaving the bricks standing. How much more intricate is the design of life systems that are evidence of a Creator?
There's nothing worse than Jaddal- you'll end up like bani Israel with Moses.. what's a cow, what kind of cow, what color is the cow, then even upon slaughter of the cow they ask which part of the cow.. just let it go Oh Muslims!
I fully agree. The point of this thread was regarding observable evidence of Allah's (swt) existence and with the lack of this evidence, then why do people believe. Certain members have taken a different route and used the thread to try to prove through their own thinking ability from a strictly human perspective the non-existence of Allah (swt). All subsequent posts to this effect will be more closely moderated.
Our duty is merely to relay the message, InshaAllah sincerely to the best of our ability. May this thread be of benefit to anyone with the prerequisites of a learner.
Our duty is merely to relay the message, InshaAllah sincerely to the best of our ability. May this thread be of benefit to anyone with the prerequisites of a learner.
akhi,
we've already done that- we've provided evidence from Quran we discussed reason and nature. It is like beating a dead horse.. there's an adage in Arabic even if astghfor Allah we put the Quran aside that states: ''Khyer al'kalaam ma qal wa dall'' I believe Ali Ibn Abu talib said it, the best of words are usually few & concise!
After a while we're not discussing anything of substance, we're discussing how an atheist feels and then building on his feelings and that's not logical argument nor is it the message we're meant to send, especially when they get insolent about how chooses to run the affairs of the universe!
we've already done that- we've provided evidence from Quran we discussed reason and nature. It is like beating a dead horse.. there's an adage in Arabic even if astghfor Allah we put the Quran aside that states: ''Khyer al'kalaam ma qal wa dall'' I believe Ali Ibn Abu talib said it, the best of words are usually few & concise!
After a while we're not discussing anything of substance, we're discussing how an atheist feels and then building on his feelings and that's not logical argument nor is it the message we're meant to send, especially when they get insolent about how chooses to run the affairs of the universe!
Wa alaykumsalam
نعم I fully agree with you ukhti, I think the horse died a few page back but mashaAllah there are those who have more patience than me. I am very much reminded some of the ayahs of سورة البقرة. Syukran for the reminder
I ask those who believe in Allah, "Why do you believe in His existence?" We Muslims believe the Qur'an is the revealed word of Allah (swt) which declares, "Say, 'He is Allah [who is] One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born. Nor is there to Him any equivalent.' " We also accept Muhammad (saaws) as the Messenger of Allah, but doesn't that presume a prior belief in Allah? For me, I cannot ever remember not believing in God; however, my concept and understanding of God changed irrevocably 31 years ago after reading the Qur'an. At the time of this 'paradigm shift' I did not know fully who Muhammad (saaws) was and I believed the Bible was the Word of God. I have no understanding of why the change in my basic beliefs about God and Jesus came after only a few weeks of reading the Qur'an while other non-Muslims have read the Qur'an and yet remain unmoved by its words. Is my belief in God a result of a choice I made or is it an innate part of my being?
I ask those who believe in Allah, "Why do you believe in His existence?" We Muslims believe the Qur'an is the revealed word of Allah (swt) which declares, "Say, 'He is Allah [who is] One, Allah, the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born. Nor is there to Him any equivalent.' " We also accept Muhammad (saaws) as the Messenger of Allah, but doesn't that presume a prior belief in Allah? For me, I cannot ever remember not believing in God; however, my concept and understanding of God changed irrevocably 31 years ago after reading the Qur'an. At the time of this 'paradigm shift' I did not know fully who Muhammad (saaws) was and I believed the Bible was the Word of God. I have no understanding of why the change in my basic beliefs about God and Jesus came after only a few weeks of reading the Qur'an while other non-Muslims have read the Qur'an and yet remain unmoved by its words. Is my belief in God a result of a choice I made or is it an innate part of my being?
That is the question I seek. Why you have read the Quar'an, embraced its teachings as the Truth, while I who read it see only deception from reality.
It is quite remarkable.
I have found that even the wise are fundamentally wrong in their foundational arguments. They mistake ignorance with certainty. Logical constructs with illusions.
How can you accept the most ****able rules based on such flimsy, nee' non-existent, evidence?
Is it a choice? No, I don't think so. It seems reasonable to your brain, so you believe it. You have looked over the evidence of reality and come to the conclusion based on your thought processes that god exists.
Now if you were to believe that it is not possible, but you still believe in it, that would be choice.
Why you have read the Quar'an, embraced its teachings as the Truth, while I who read it see only deception from reality.
It is quite remarkable.
Yes, indeed it is most remarkable and by analogy the same applies to the universe and all that exists as signs and evidences to the believer of the existence of its Creator and to the unbeliever who sees the same, but does not see any necessity for a Creator, apparently content that all that exists does so merely by random chance. Why does one see and another not see? Why does one believe and another not believe? The Qur'an also makes this connection with 45:4 "And in the creation of yourselves and what He disperses of moving creatures are signs for people who are certain [in faith]." There is an apparent oxymoron in this ayat - FAITH with CERTAINTY. One may ask, "Is not faith merely a belief about something for which there is no physical evidence and therefore held with uncertainty?" To the unbeliever, a person of faith has belief in something that to the unbeliever exists only in the mind of the believer - a mere myth! Yet the believer holds on to what he believes with absolute certainty and can not be convinced of the non-existence of his Creator.
I see the 4 nucleic acids that comprise DNA as letters in the alphabet of life with an amazing consistency across all living species. Arranged in groups of three nucleic acids, the DNA of each species codes for specific sequences of amino acids that miraculously come together to form specific proteins in very precise and specific places and times. Outside of that particular space and time this assemblage is absolutely worthless and does not result in the intended function, but within it the protein is essential to the development of a living individual of a specific species. The DNA of each species contains immense information that can be equated to volumes and volumes of encyclopedias. There are subtle differences that determine whether one zygote becomes a horse and another a donkey, one becomes a human and another becomes a chimpanzee, one becomes a cotton plant and another a hibiscus, etc. I see the genetic code as direct and irrefutable evidence of a Creator. To believe otherwise is to assume that Tolstoy's "War and Peace" could have been assembled by a naturalistic process over an exceedingly long period of time from the building blocks of letters. For someone to deny that this universe was created is analogous to someone denying that a person or persons wrote this novel. The Qur'an 46:26 comes to mind, "And We had certainly established them in such as We have not established you, and We made for them hearing and vision and hearts [i.e., intellect]. But their hearing and vision and hearts availed them not from anything [of the punishment] when they were [continually] rejecting the signs of Allah; and they were enveloped by what they used to ridicule."
I'd like it if atheists would make a small attempt at cutting the crap and the padding!
What you've written is much ado about nothing, which is almost always what atheists dish out. Just nonsense about their feelings, and logic and the delusions of everyone else!
best,
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
It isn't merely that he knows someone will commit an act. He knew they would do so before he created them, and then he went ahead and created them.
Both are responsible. Just because the created beings are responsible doesn't mean the creator who set it all up isn't responsible as well, especially if the creator knows what the creation is going to do if he creates particular creatures a particular way, and then goes ahead and creates them anyway. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this at this point since we're going around in circles now.
Okay I'll stop. It was nice having a discussion with you.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Yes, indeed it is most remarkable and by analogy the same applies to the universe and all that exists as signs and evidences to the believer of the existence of its Creator and to the unbeliever who sees the same, but does not see any necessity for a Creator, apparently content that all that exists does so merely by random chance. Why does one see and another not see?
I agree. It is remarkable. In this very thread we had somebody ask if there is evidence of Allah's existence. We had some muslims present some readings from their holy book as proof, which of course non-muslims see as merely a book and therefore proof of nothing. We some some people observe as you have here, that the universe itself is wonderous and is itself evidence of Allah. We saw me say the opposite, that the universe and problem of evil is evidence against an all knowing all benevolent all powerful God.
We see the same things and see very differently. It it genetic? Is it culture and upbringing? If you were born and raised by my parents and had my life experiences would you be atheist? If I was born to your parents and had your life experiences would I be muslim? I think it is a bit of both. There has actually been some interesting research that may show a big part of it to be inborn. I've seen research on authoritarianism, individualism vs collectivism, suggestibility / openness to religious experience, and tendency to believe in the supernatural things (be they ghosts or Gods) all of which I think plays a role here. With I had links handy but I don't
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 06-09-2013 at 11:50 PM.
Perhaps we could address ideas, beliefs, and perceptions, instead of talking about the people who post them? We won't always agree with each other's views, and may even find some of those views offensive but that is no reason to attack those who hold them.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 06-10-2013 at 12:36 AM.
Why do some believe in the unseen and why do others not believe?
Why do you assume that the belief is in an 'unseen'?
As Abu Bakr As'siddique said, '' I have never seen anything without seeing God before it [Abu Bakr].
everyone is given the exact same opportunities. Some people see it as that an opportunity and others rebuff it aside and go about their day. It has nothing to do with circumstance or upbringing etc. Everyone ponders why they're here, their purpose, what it all means. These are life's tough questions.
As to the conclusion they derive, it is based on their 'ma3dan' we're made of the earth, some of it good and some of it rotten. And we don't actually get to know what we're made out of until the very end.
I don't remember which of the four imams was on his death bed and people were congratulating him for avoiding the devil all his life and he'd go in and out of consciousness saying 'not yet, not yet' i.e he's not actually safe until his soul departs from the body on the straight path.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Assalamu alaikum, sister, matters of faith are by definition unseen. I don't understand the point of your comment.
Except our faith isn't based purely on what is unseen. asks us and repeatedly to ponder the universe, the creation, ourselves and that it is all signs to people of reason. We're given ample miracles in the Quran but even if we don't subscribe to it and just do as all people who have come before us and took time to reflect the answer would be obvious. I think people draw the same conclusions at the end and then convince themselves of some act of substitution.
Ibn Uthymeen once said: كلما ترفه الجسم تعقدت الروح
the more people work on worldly pleasures the more complicated things become for the soul We're part dirt and part soul and the happiness of the soul differs from the happiness of the body. So quite simply those who come across the same signs you do and see them in a different fashion than you, have simply substituted the earth bound portion of themselves to the elevated one and the more and more they cave into the desires of the body the more they forget about the soul so it becomes natural to them that they don't need to think of that other part it becomes less and less relevant.
When you commit sin it is the same way, first time you feel bad the more you do it the less bad it feels.. why do you think that is?
Hope that makes better sense to you now ?
I just want to add a portion for those always seeking supernatural things that early Muslims like Ali said of such things as in if the sky split and he say paradise, it wouldn't change his iman rather cement the yaqeen .. we should strive to layer ourselves to reach that level..
It is all just stratification of where we are as human beings and not the other stuff that others think factors in here.
Except our faith isn't based purely on what is unseen. asks us and repeatedly to ponder the universe, the creation, ourselves and that it is all signs to people of reason.
Yes, that part does make sense and is consistent with what I have been saying. What comes to mind is Qur'an 10:99-101, {And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed – all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers? And it is not for a soul [i.e., anyone] to believe except by permission of Allah, and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason. Say, "Observe what is in the heavens and the earth." But of no avail will be signs or warners to a people who do not believe.}
I have stated before in many different ways that I look at the intricacies of molecular biology and I can't conceive of it coming into existence except by a Creator while another does not make this connection. So, yes, in a way this universe is direct evidence of the existence of Allah (swt) to those who have eyes to see, minds to reason and hearts to believe. Yet there is no compulsion in religion as stated above. The guidance of Allah (swt) of some to the Straight Way and the leaving to stray of others is a puzzlement to me. I take my own example of becoming a believer after reading portions of the Qur'an while others see it as merely incoherent words on paper. I am humbled by my conversion and know that, "Except for the grace of God, so also go I - the wandering way of the disbeliever."
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akhi,
chooses to run the affairs of the universe!
but mashaAllah there are those who have more patience than me. I am very much reminded some of the ayahs of سورة البقرة. Syukran for the reminder 
?
said of such things as in if the sky split and he say paradise, it wouldn't change his iman rather cement the yaqeen .. we should strive to layer ourselves to reach that level..
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