Can the English translation of the Quran be trusted?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

What are Christians doing different now than they did before Constantinople, and who is Rasulullah? the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh

they were trying to decide whether Jesus, pbuh, was god or human when he was human, whether or not Mary, pbuh, was literally the mother of a god. once Christianity became "official;" Bishops and monks ran things on a local basis. Antioch, Ephesus and Alexandria were as strong, if not stronger than Rome. the power of Ephesus declined with the Bishopric of Constantinople. Emperors and Bishops spent the next 300+ years mapping out Christianity. Christianity was quite diverse before Constantine. NO ONE KNOWS exactly how diverse, much of it was simply Paganism wrapped in a new name.
sources:

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Wars-Pat.../dp/0061768944

http://www.amazon.com/D-381-Heretics...ref=pd_sim_b_2

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

My question was not answered ; instead, you appear to get on the defensive by showing concern where I got my information. My question is wouldn't it have been better to tell the husbands not to beat their wives at all to avoid any risk of abuse? Believe me I have seen and heard the abuse some Muslim woman are going through. Plz just answer my question.

Your question was perfectly answered. It is just that you do not wish to see sense. I showed concern because it is clear you are not being truthful about where you got such information from. No Muslim would say such a thing. Much of what you state regarding Islam seems to come from anti Islamic websites. You should at least be honest about these things as it would show that you have some sincerety.

The answer to your question is that no it would not have been better at all. If the wife committs indecency or becomes rebellious against her husband then only in exceptional circumstances and as a last resort when all else has failed is it is permissable for the husband to lightly strike her but it is forbidden to cause her any injury, similar to the proper disciplining of a child. It is never lawful for him to strike her face or cause her any bruise or injury. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) said regarding this:

"So beware of Allah regarding women for you have taken them as a trust from Allah and you have made their bodies lawful with the word of Allah. You have the right over them that they should not allow anyone on your furnishings who you dislike. If they do that, hit them in a way which causes no injury. And, they have the right over you to provision and clothing according to custom." (Bukhari & Muslim)

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

A tap with a toothpick type twig. I am sorry, but this makes no sense to me. How is that worse than witholding the marriage bed especially for the man. The man has more to lose if he has one wife. He is punishing himself more for what the wife did wrong. What if the man is wrong in the marriage relationship? What does the man get beaten with? My question was simple, and it didn't get answered. The Bible teaches not to beat your wife in any fashion or form; in fact, it states that we shouild love our wives like Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. We are taught to lay down our lives for our wives! This really helps prevent abuse.

"Hitting" is the very last option after everything has been tried. So if a person has gone about the matter in the proper manner then they would never need to resort to the last option. The Ptophet Muhammad (Pbuh) never hit nor shouted at any of his wives. But every situation is different. But even then hitting is subject to the condition that it should not be harsh or cause injury. Al-Hasan al-Basri said: this means that it should not cause pain.

‘Ata’(Ra) said: I said to Ibn ‘Abbaas, what is the kind of hitting that is not harsh? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like. [A siwaak is a small stick or twig used for cleaning the teeth - Translator]

The purpose behind this is not to hurt or humiliate the woman, rather it is intended to make her realize that she has transgressed against her husband’s rights, and that her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her.

Also one must keep in mind that hitting the wife is ONLY if she is doing something very wrong and you have already tried to speak to her about it, and that has failed, AND you have abandoned her bed and that has failed, ONLY then is it permissible to hit her lightly, as a last resort.

In no way does Islam allow men to hit out at their wives in a moment of anger, to take out their frustration on them or simply because he felt like it, as some people wrongly claim. As Muslims we must protect the sanctity of our religion and also it is upon us to protect women from abusive husbands - we therefore must be very assertive in establishing the fact that NO, Islam does not in anyway way allow a man to abuse his wife!

As I have already mentioned the last resort can only be used in the correct manner (not to inflict injury) & in rare and exceptional circumstances when all else has failed as long as he has done everything in the correct manner and taken all necessery steps to correct her.

I do agree that some people do twist the rules to suit themselves but that can be applied to many rules and regulations which are twisted by people who use it to their advantage to someone elses disadvantage. That is obviously unjust and wrong and such people will be punished by God for every soul shall get their recompanse from every atom of injustice they have experienced in their lives in this world.

It is a fact that our beloved Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) never hit nor did he even ever shout at any of his wives or servants. He was the best towards his wives and was the perfect example for mankind. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) stated:

"The best among you is the one who is the best towards his wife" (Hadith - Muslim, #3466)

So a Muslim must be the best towards his wife and must never hurt nor injure her whether mentally nor physically.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

they were trying to decide whether Jesus, pbuh, was god or human when he was human, whether or not Mary, pbuh, was literally the mother of a god. once Christianity became "official;" Bishops and monks ran things on a local basis. Antioch, Ephesus and Alexandria were as strong, if not stronger than Rome. the power of Ephesus declined with the Bishopric of Constantinople. Emperors and Bishops spent the next 300+ years mapping out Christianity. Christianity was quite diverse before Constantine. NO ONE KNOWS exactly how diverse, much of it was simply Paganism wrapped in a new name.
sources:

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Wars-Pat.../dp/0061768944

http://www.amazon.com/D-381-Heretics...ref=pd_sim_b_2

So you are saying today Christians are trying to decided if Jesus is God and if Mary is the mother of God, but back then before Constantine they knew Mary was not the mother of God and so on. Well my world view tells me that there is a convoulted mixiture here. Biblical Christians today belief what they believed back then. They believe that Mary is NOT the mother of God; they believe that Jesus is NOT God the Father, and they believe the Holy Spirit is God, and they believe that Jesus is definitely the son of God of the living God who died for sin and rose again from the dead who is coming back to judge the living and the dead.

They believe that God judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the son so that the son would be honored the same as the father who sent Him. For if we honor not the son the same as the father, we don't honor the Father. Now this belief is what the early Biblical Christians believed before the time of Constantine and Muhammad; morever, it is exactly what Bibical Christian believe today. Are there any Christians on this forum that disagree. Maybe a Catholic might about Mary, but I will tell the Catholic that Mary was created by God and that she is the mother of Jesus but not God. Christians will tell you back then and exactly the same today that Jesus is the Son of God, and man does that tick off Satan?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

How do you know Jesus death on the cross was a myth? pfft

Psalm 91:

1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]

2 I will say [b] of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."

3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,

6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.

8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.

9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the LORD, who is my refuge-

10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. (If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would've struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him).

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."


Isaiah 52:13

See, my servant will act wisely ; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. - This is clearly in accordance with the Qur'an that he will be lifted and saved from such a punishment.


Therefore there is NO doubt that according to Psalms God Almighty will hear his cries and cover him with his protection. That he will have no fear in him and he will observe the punishment of the crucified ones. That Christs call will be heard and that he will be delivered and honoured. According to the verses from Psalms and Isaiah above GOD Almighty will send down the Angels to protect him and lift him. This is perfectly in accordance with the Islamic belief regarding Christ. If Christ was crucified then none of these verses would be valid.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah

The answer to your question is that no it would not have been better at all. If the wife committs indecency or becomes rebellious against her husband then only in exceptional circumstances and as a last resort when all else has failed is it is permissable for the husband to lightly strike her but it is forbidden to cause her any injury, similar to the proper disciplining of a child. It is never lawful for him to strike her face or cause her any bruise or injury. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) said regarding this:

"So beware of Allah regarding women for you have taken them as a trust from Allah and you have made their bodies lawful with the word of Allah. You have the right over them that they should not allow anyone on your furnishings who you dislike. If they do that, hit them in a way which causes no injury. And, they have the right over you to provision and clothing according to custom." (Bukhari & Muslim)




"Hitting" is the very last option after everything has been tried. So if a person has gone about the matter in the proper manner then they would never need to resort to the last option. The Ptophet Muhammad (Pbuh) never hit nor shouted at any of his wives. But every situation is different. But even then hitting is subject to the condition that it should not be harsh or cause injury. Al-Hasan al-Basri said: this means that it should not cause pain.

‘Ata’(Ra) said: I said to Ibn ‘Abbaas, what is the kind of hitting that is not harsh? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like. [A siwaak is a small stick or twig used for cleaning the teeth - Translator]

The purpose behind this is not to hurt or humiliate the woman, rather it is intended to make her realize that she has transgressed against her husband’s rights, and that her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her.

Also one must keep in mind that hitting the wife is ONLY if she is doing something very wrong and you have already tried to speak to her about it, and that has failed, AND you have abandoned her bed and that has failed, ONLY then is it permissible to hit her lightly, as a last resort.

In no way does Islam allow men to hit out at their wives in a moment of anger, to take out their frustration on them or simply because he felt like it, as some people wrongly claim. As Muslims we must protect the sanctity of our religion and also it is upon us to protect women from abusive husbands - we therefore must be very assertive in establishing the fact that NO, Islam does not in anyway way allow a man to abuse his wife!

As I have already mentioned the last resort can only be used in the correct manner (not to inflict injury) & in rare and exceptional circumstances when all else has failed as long as he has done everything in the correct manner and taken all necessery steps to correct her.

I do agree that some people do twist the rules to suit themselves but that can be applied to many rules and regulations which are twisted by people who use it to their advantage to someone elses disadvantage. That is obviously unjust and wrong and such people will be punished by God for every soul shall get their recompanse from every atom of injustice they have experienced in their lives in this world.

It is a fact that our beloved Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) never hit nor did he even ever shout at any of his wives or servants. He was the best towards his wives and was the perfect example for mankind. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) stated:

"The best among you is the one who is the best towards his wife" (Hadith - Muslim, #3466)

So a Muslim must be the best towards his wife and must never hurt nor injure her whether mentally nor physically.

Now you answered it to a point. You said "No it wouldn't be better." IMO, being hit with a twig the size of a toothpick that causes no pain or harm should be the first option for correction, but being held from the marriage bed, the latter, because that is or can be emotionally painful and can be a form of emotional abuse when prolonged.

The wife can or might feel that maybe her husband doesn't love her anymore. The Bible says that we should never with hold ourselves from our wives unless it is with mutual consent for just a time so that Satan will not come to tempt us. Well, thank you for answering my question.

It makes more sense to me and I agree more with the Bible that says that the man should lay down his life for his wife and not withhold himself from her and definitely not beat her lightly or harshly with any object. Besides, what is the point of correcting with a small twig like toothpick that causes no pain? If children are disciplined like that, they will never learn the lesson of correction. It makes no sense, and seems like an attempt to cover the embarrasment of beaten your wife when you know you shouldn't. My question was not fully answered really. I also asked about what the woman can do to the men who are more likely to misbehave?

Lets be honest like you expect from me and call a spade a spade: If a Muslim must be the best towards his wife and must never hurt nor injure her whether mentally nor physically, will will not beat his wife in any form and not with hold himself from her period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Biblical Christians today belief what they believed back then. They believe that Mary is NOT the mother of God; they believe that Jesus is NOT God the Father, and they believe the Holy Spirit is God, and they believe that Jesus is definitely the son of God of the living God who died for sin and rose again from the dead who is coming back to judge the living and the dead.

Yes they believed that God was one and had no "literal" son. After Constantine Christians began worship God as the father and God as the son and God as the holy spirit. So they worshipped worship 3 different entities. You also admnitted that in your supplications you call upon God the father and God the son seperately. Therefore no matter how much you try and decieve yourself you are in fact worshipping 3 different entities.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Maybe a Catholic might about Mary, but I will tell the Catholic that Mary was created by God and that she is the mother of Jesus but not God. Christians will tell you back then and exactly the same today that Jesus is the Son of God,

But if Jesus is Gods word made flesh, then Mary is the mother of Gods word made flesh so she has to be the mother of God himself. She cannot be taken out of this equation no matter how hard you try to disregard her. She had God in her stomach for 9 months. She gave birth to God. She suckled God. She stopped God crying. She fed God. She taught God what he did not know when he was a child. She looked after God and raised him. She is the mother of God.

God the father is the father and the son is the son and the mother is the mother and the holy spirit is also God. Thats a lot of Gods.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

and man does that tick off Satan?

Nop it makes him very happy indeed. NOTHING makes satan happier than for mankind to worship other than God. That is his biggest achievement.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah

Originally Posted by Burninglight
How do you know Jesus death on the cross was a myth? pfft
Psalm 91:

1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]

2 I will say [b] of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."

3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,

6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.

8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.

9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the LORD, who is my refuge-

10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. (If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would've struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him).

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."


Isaiah 52:13

See, my servant will act wisely ; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. - This is clearly in accordance with the Qur'an that he will be lifted and saved from such a punishment.


Therefore there is NO doubt that according to Psalms God Almighty will hear his cries and cover him with his protection. That he will have no fear in him and he will observe the punishment of the crucified ones. That Christs call will be heard and that he will be delivered and honoured. According to the verses from Psalms and Isaiah above GOD Almighty will send down the Angels to protect him and lift him. This is perfectly in accordance with the Islamic belief regarding Christ. If Christ was crucified then none of these verses would be valid.

How about these fufilled prophecies:
PSALMS
19-22:16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Isaiah 53:
Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
⁵ But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
⁶ All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
⁷ He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.

^{Mat 28:2} And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it.³ His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow.⁴ And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.⁵ But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.⁶ He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he^[a] lay.⁷ Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you.”⁸ So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples.

How about when Jesus predicted His death three times in the Bible. How do you know that what calls this a myth isn't one?

Jesus' death and resurrection a myth? pfft, try telling that to 2.5 billion Christians in the world today!

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Now you answered it to a point. You said no it wouldn't be better. IMO, being hit with a twig the size of a toothpick that causes no pain or harm should be the first option for correction, but being held from the marriage bed, the latter, because that is emotionally painful and can be a form of emotional abuse when prolonged.

You missed out the first step which is to talk. Communication is the best way to resolve any matter. It may also include getting others to talk to her etc. Most cases will be resolved in the first step. So if in rare cases the matter is still not resolved and the wife is still being disobedient to the husband then he would have no other choice if communication has failed but to abandon the bed until she has corrected her behaviour. Is her disobedience not already painful to her husband and the marital relationship? If she cares so much about her husband and her relationship then this step would definately sort the matter out and make her realise of her wrong doings towards her husband. So the purpose of this step is to make her realise the impact her behaviour is having on her husband and relationship.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

The wife can or might feel that maybe her husband doesn't love her anymore. The Bible says that we should never withold ourselves from our wives unless it is with mutually agree for just a tims so that Satan will not come to tempt us. Well, thank you for answering my question. It makes more sense to me and I agree more with the Bible that says that the man should lay down his life for his wife and not withhold himself from her and definitely not beat her lightly or harshly with any object.

You are now twisting things out of context. As i have already mentioned to you this would only happen in the rare cases that the first step did not work. So obviously if the first step dids not work then the only other option must be for the husband to withold the marital bed to make his wife realise of her wrong doings. Who said anything about beatig her harshly with an object?

At least the Qur'an does not consider women as filth that defiles men:

Revelation 14:4 "Those are those (men) who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb."


The Qur'an honours women like thy should be honoured, but the Bible allows a man to cut the woman's hands if she defends her husband in the wrong way:

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "And in case men struggle together (in a fight) with one another, and the wife of the one has come near to deliver her husband out of the striking one (to save her husband), and she has thrust out her hand and grabbed hold of his private (the other man's groin), she must then get both her hands cut off, and the eyes of the men must feel no sorrow."

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Besides, what is the point of correcting with a small twig like toothpick that causes no pain? If children are disciplined like that, they will never learn the lesson of correction. It makes no sense, and seems like an attempt to cover the embarrasment of beaten your wife when you know you shouldn't. My question was not fully answered really. I also asked about what the woman can do to the men who are more likely to misbehave?

There is a clear distinction between disciplining a child and disciplining ones wife. As Muslims we do not view our wives as children for they are our life and soul partners and they must NOT be treated like children like how you are suggesting.

Men and women have different natures. If the husband misbehaves then the wife must be firm in that he treats her in the right manner. So she must do everything to communicate with him how much his behaviour is affecting her. If he still does not behave towards her then she should get a third party involved to resolve the matter. If things are still the same then she can terminate the marriage through a shariah court or Muslim council/scholars etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Lets be honest like you expect from me and call a spade a spade: If a Muslim must be the best towards his wife and must never hurt nor injure her whether mentally nor physically, will will not beat his wife in any form and not withold himself from her period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He is only with holding himself from her to make her realise how much he is hurting him and affecting their marital relationship. Beating ones wife is totally forbidden in Islam. Whether it is allowed in the Bible is another matter. The Prophet (Pbuh) says regarding the treatment of women:

"So beware of Allah regarding women for you have taken them as a trust from Allah and you have made their bodies lawful with the word of Allah. You have the right over them that they should not allow anyone on your furnishings who you dislike. If they do that, hit them in a way which causes no injury. And, they have the right over you to provision and clothing according to custom." (Bukhari & Muslim)

But the Bible allows the daughter to be sold by her father to slavery:

Exodus 21:7-8 "And in case a man should sell his daughter as a slave girl, she will not go out in the way that the slave men go out. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master so that he doesn't designate her as a concubine but causes her to be redeemed, he will not be entitled to sell her to a foreign people in his treacherously dealing with her."

So Islam CLEARLY forbids wife beating whereas the Bible promotes it:

Hosea 3
1 The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes."

This verse is clearly referring to the Israelites who were severely punished by God everytime they got out of line. So in the case that ones wife gets out of line like the Israelites did with God then this verse is permitting one to treat her as GOD treated the Israelites - to punish her! And GOD Almighty annhialated the Israelites when He, the Almighty, decided to go against them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

How about these fufilled prophecies:
PSALMS
19-22:16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Isaiah 53:
Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
⁵ But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
⁶ All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
⁷ He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.

^{Mat 28:2} And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it.³ His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow.⁴ And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.⁵ But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.⁶ He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he^[a] lay.⁷ Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you.”⁸ So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples.

How about when Jesus predicted His death three times in the Bible. How do you know that what calls this a myth isn't one?

Jesus' death and resurrection a myth? pfft, try telling that to 2.5 billion Christians in the world today!

These verses are NOT talking about a literal death at all. The verses i quoted CLEARLY state that God will save Christ from the hands of the evil doers. Unless you are saying that there are clear contradictions in the verses of the Bible.

2.5 billion? You must be joking. If you really think that most of the UK and the US and most of the west for that matter are actually practising Christians then you were only born yesterday. MOST of the people who are counted as Christians like in the west are CLEARLY ATHIESTS and agnostics. There is NO WAY there are 2.5 billion people who truly believe in Christianity. You and i both know that.

Whereas Islam is the most believed in and most practised religion in the world today and is increasing RAPIDLY!

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Yes, you are right. Sorry, I forgot the communication that is the best choice; then, the second should be the toothpick not he marriage bed. That was my point.

Witholding the marital bed should make the wife realise how much she has hurt her husband through her disobedience and so is a very effective method if all else has failed.

The verses you share in the OT is supposedly a part of Islam. When you cut it down, you are disrespecting Islam, because in the OT are the truth about the prophets starting with Adam - Jesus. Islam respects the prophets in the Bible and Muhammad never said anything about the OT being corrupted, but he contradicts the NT even though he doesn't outright say it is corrupted but he does to me by contradicting it by never the OT. So you beef regarding those verse is not with me; it is with the recorded prophets of God.

As Muslims we would only accept the original OT not the present day one whch is not immune from the corrupters of the word and teachings of God. When you do not have the original then you leave things open for corruption and exploitation. The OT has not escaped being tampered with and changed. But the NT is not divine nor is it revelation but the compilation of random books from random unknown men written at an unknown time in history. For you follow Paulanity not Christianity.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Okay, about the 2.5 billlon, they are not practicing Christians, but I didn't say they were. I just said try telling them that Jesus wasn't crucified! Islam may be the fastest growing and believed, but that doesn't mean truth; it just means it is the fastest growing and most believed!

What i mean is not that they are not practising Christians but they are NOT Christians full stop. Most of them are athiest and agnostic. You cannot deny that if you are here living in the west as most of us here are. The true number of Christians although they may not be practising but i am talking about "believing" Christians would only fall into a few hundred of million worldwide. Certainly no where near a billion.

Most reverts to Islam worldwide were either previously from Christian backgrounds and most are women.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight

Okay, about the 2.5 billlon, they are not practicing Christians, but I didn't say they were.

So they are true christians, but they are not practicing?

few weeks ago you said they are not true christians.

so which one is right?