I grew up atheist and later studied various religious texts and the Old Testament is my favorite. I have nothing against the Quran, but the Old Testament is simply my favorite and so I follow it.
I would like to join an existing religion. The reason is that I find modern culture to be evil and hostile, and I would like to associate with people who share at least some of my values. So let me consider the options.
Most people believe that Jews follow the Old Testament, but this is simply wrong. Today's Jews follow the Talmud which twists the Old Testament beyond recognition. A simple example is the prohibition of mixing meat and milk which can't be found in the Old Testament anywhere. But worse is the racism of Judaism which has no basis in the Old Testament. The religion of modern Judaism not only isn't based on the Old Testament but strongly conflicts with it, making it unworkable for me.
Some traditional Christian groups like the Puritans followed the moral ideas of the Old Testament. But most modern Christians reject the whole idea of moral law, which is horrifying to me. In my opinion, Christianity violates the Old Testament idea of "God is one" by making Jesus into a god. The basic principle of Christianity is accepting Jesus as a god, and this is something I could never do.
I know that the Old Testament is not part of Islam, but what little I know about Islam seems to be based on the same moral principles that the Old Testament stands for. When considering the Shahada "There is no god but God and that Muhammad is His messenger" I see 2 parts. The first part is the same as "God is one" in the Old Testament, so that certainly works for me. And for the second part, though I cannot judge the Quran myself, I also cannot deny that Muhammad has had a huge impact on the world and introduced God to many people, and I consider this to be good enough evidence that Muhammad is God's messenger. So I would have no problem saying the Shahada.
But even if I said the Shahada, my primary dedication would be to the Old Testament which I love. What would change is that I would consider muslims to be my people and I would give charity to them. And I would follow islamic rules within reason, especially in public. But I would still follow the Ten Commandments and keep the sabbath and study the Old Testament, not the Quran. So my question simply is, would this work?
I want to give this a serious response. Another sect of Judaism sure won't work, I can't even post to a jewish form without being banned. (And I am ethnically jewish.) Another sect of Islam is not going thrill members of mainstream Islam, and I have enough enemies.
To my original question "Can I follow the Old Testament in Islam?" the answer is no. But what about to the question: Can one follow the Old Testament AND Islam? In other words, follow both without associating the Old Testament with Islam. Why would anyone do this? Because while Islam may help with the afterlife or on the day of judgement, Islam currently is doing a fairly poor job at delivering immediate value in this life. (Islam did deliver in this area at the beginning, but something changed, and now it fails.) The Old Testament is focused on this life, not the afterlife. By studying the Old Testament, I have greatly improved my life here on earth. The Old Testament teaches one to accept reality and respond appropriately (not passively). It teaches how to organize strong communities that can work together to beat the world.
Most people don't know this, but the reason the Christianity conquered the world is because it began following the Old Testament. In particular, the English Puritans took the Old Testament very seriously and began following the principles of the Old Testament. The result was the British Empire. But things change, and over time Western Christianity changed and stopped following the Old Testament, and this is when the West began to go into decline. Of course I agree with Islam that Christian beliefs are misguided. But the point is that the Old Testament is a guide for how to succeed in this world, and anyone follows it, regardless of their beliefs, will succeed in this world.
I challenge any Muslim to find a conflict between the Old Testament and the Quran in required behavior (not in fact). There isn't any. This means that there is no conflict in following both at the same time. Follow the Quran for the afterlife, and follow the Old Testament to succeed in this life. Why not?
And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah (i.e. this Qur'an), and be not divided among yourselves,and remember Allah's Favour on you, for you were enemies one to another but He joined your hearts together, sothat, by His Grace, you became brethren (in Islamic Faith), and you were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus Allah makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that you may be guided.
you can do da'wah call people towards islam...as Islam is the correct..Quran is in original form...bible have got fabrications ...because Allah is all knowing and trickful too....to test us....you can do dawah...take all good from everything without contradicting quran or hadith...make people understand that it is time to follow islam...keeping quran idle at home doesnt mean anything...read amd understand the miracle....look the verse above quoted...Allah knows everything...thats why...Allah is guiding us through quran...for those who take effort...our effort should be to understsnd quran...dont label it as only afterlife...it is Allah final revelation...so lots of unknown miracles facts science lies in it...
And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah (i.e. this Qur'an), and be not divided among yourselves,and remember Allah's Favour on you, for you were enemies one to another but He joined your hearts together, sothat, by His Grace, you became brethren (in Islamic Faith), and you were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus Allah makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that you may be guided.
How does my suggestion conflict with this? Yes, if I followed Karl's suggestion and started another sect, then this would conflict. But I am not suggesting this. What I am saying is to remain in mainstream Islam and fully continue to follow the Quran, but at the same time also follow the principles of the Old Testament. Where is the conflict?
Allah is the best knower...i need some clarification...as i dont really dont know its principles...most important principles in every revelation is to worship Allah and so to assossciate no partners with Allah...and live for good..with good deeds...since last messenger came...it was advised for every person to upgrade to quran...which has everything clear...so if you love old testament you sure love quran...also it is very necessarily important to make other people who follow old revelations to upgrade to quran...so you should read Qur'an ...
Last edited by Shamnadanu; 02-04-2017 at 05:58 AM.
you can do da'wah call people towards islam...as Islam is the correct..Quran is in original form...bible have got fabrications ...because Allah is all knowing and trickful too....to test us....you can do dawah...take all good from everything without contradicting quran or hadith...make people understand that it is time to follow islam...keeping quran idle at home doesnt mean anything...read amd understand the miracle....look the verse above quoted...Allah knows everything...thats why...Allah is guiding us through quran...for those who take effort...our effort should be to understsnd quran...dont label it as only afterlife...it is Allah final revelation...so lots of unknown miracles facts science lies in it...
Again I don't see any conflict. It is clear that the Quran worked in this life at the beginning. But it seems that some understanding of the Quran has been lost in Islam because Islam isn't nearly as successful today as it was in the beginning. This loss can be compensated for by studying the Old Testament. And I am not saying to study the Old Testament at the expense of the Quran. One can study both. I am doing this now.
I also agree that the Old Testament isn't perfect. But one doesn't need perfection to improve oneself. All that is required is for the Old Testament to retain enough of God's wisdom to help us become more successful in life.
i think the purpose of old testament or other old revelations are over or expired.morover it is fabricated it is not real TORAH given to moses ....if a medicine is expired even it is uselful as seems ..it is not prescribed by anyone to use it...in exchange you got a whole brand new medicine with no side effect...we should follow muhammed pbuh teachings and needs to be his ummah to reach paradise...in old centuries...one could be rishis or munis or do tapass in himalayan mountains as worship to God but in islam..it is compulsary to do salah
...what is use of creating a group of new sect...if it is for Allah... Allah needs it through islam only...Allah look at intention...do dawah...do salah..do fasting..etc
لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله
Last edited by Shamnadanu; 02-04-2017 at 06:15 AM.
Allah is the best knower...i need some clarification...as i dont really dont know its principles...most important principles in every revelation is to worship Allah and so to assossciate no partners with Allah...and live for good..with good deeds...since last messenger came...it was advised for every person to upgrade to quran...which has everything clear...so if you love old testament you sure love quran...also it is very necessarily important to make other people who follow old revelations to upgrade to quran...so you should read Qur'an ...
As I am sure you know, the Quran contains a few inconsistent statements, and the last one is taken to be correct. But why did this happen? Did God make a mistake and correct it later? Of course not. What happened is that conditions changed, so at any given time, God gave the appropriate advice for the current conditions. The Quran was 100% perfect for the conditions of the time when it was given. But exactly the same is true of the Torah. It also was 100% perfect for the conditions of the time when it was given. Different conditions require different responses. The Quran works very well in a society where there is enlightened Muslim leadership. But where does this exist today? Nowhere. But it did exist in early Islam. The Torah gives advice that is less dependent on the quality of leadership. For example, the sabbath is needed when there is poor leadership for 2 reasons. One is to guarantee that workers aren't abused and have time for rest. And second, because everyone needs time to reflect on things when they live in a chaotic society. There is much less need for the sabbath in a society with good government, which is why it wasn't emphasized in the Quran. But I would say that the sabbath is needed today. This is one example, but I can provide you with many more if you want.
Brother conditions is what Allah gives... Muhammed pbuh the leader of our ummah faced so much hardships...today it is lesser....our duty is to do dawah and improve our conditions...this is what we got to achieve...we need to suffer the pain which Allah put on us....Its not Allah got mistake...its us we are mistaken...Allah created this programming...we are some sort of dynamic commands in it....Allah test us with everything that can spoil our faith....at the time one with sabr(patience) wins .if you understand more of it...mufti menk or ahmed deedat lectures would be benficial...we cannot make this world peace...
Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wasallam) said: “The world is a prison for a believer and Paradise for a non-believer.” [Muslim]
Don't limit quran you can ask of any help from authentic hadiths and quran.....on here or ummah.com or forums or Alims nearby
even though i am not an Alim...i dont limit quran as ineffective on current society...quran is very effective thats why its the last revelation.....we need eeman actually win this life...so i know whatever you need for there is answer from quran or guidance from hadiths........
Last edited by Shamnadanu; 02-04-2017 at 06:41 AM.
How does my suggestion conflict with this? Yes, if I followed Karl's suggestion and started another sect, then this would conflict. But I am not suggesting this. What I am saying is to remain in mainstream Islam and fully continue to follow the Quran, but at the same time also follow the principles of the Old Testament. Where is the conflict?
No, not at all. A Muslim will have to follow the Quran and sunnah... What you like, nobody cares..
dear schmidt...its okay ..i understand you...there is a group called tableegh jamaat you can contact such people...or any other community near you...i know you meant its not another sect...you meant to guide existing fellow jews and Christian s who follow old testament and correct their belief and invite to quran and sunnah on mainstream...its really nice to hear...only struggle is not to take anything which contradict with anything else...i think so....
Jazakallah khair...May Allah purify our intentions ...guide us correct path and to jannah ...give us courage to do da'wah....Ya Allah its only for you....
What I am saying is to remain in mainstream Islam and fully continue to follow the Quran, but at the same time also follow the principles of the Old Testament. Where is the conflict?
In principle, there is none.
In practice - there would be.
Schmidt, can you define for me, what it is you refer to exactly when you say "follow the principles of the Old Testament"???
Brother conditions is what Allah gives... Muhammed pbuh the leader of our ummah faced so much hardships...today it is lesser....our duty is to do dawah and improve our conditions...this is what we got to achieve...we need to suffer the pain which Allah put on us....Its not Allah got mistake...its us we are mistaken...Allah created this programming...we are some sort of dynamic commands in it....Allah test us with everything that can spoil our faith....at the time one with sabr(patience) wins .if you understand more of it...mufti menk or ahmed deedat lectures would be benficial...we cannot make this world peace...
Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wasallam) said: “The world is a prison for a believer and Paradise for a non-believer.” [Muslim]
When I read this, I see implied passivity. The Old Testament is strongly against passivity. Muhammad is a good example of how a person should behave. He was active, not passive. He improved his own conditions and the conditions of his followers. He made the most of life instead of just waiting for death.
format_quote Originally Posted by Shamnadanu
you meant to guide existing fellow jews and Christian s who follow old testament and correct their belief and invite to quran and sunnah on mainstream
Actually Jews and Christians don't follow the Old Testament at all. This may surprise you, but I think Muslims are closer to the spirit of the Old Testament than Jews and (modern) Christians are. And that is one reason why I am here.
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
What you like, nobody cares..
True, unfortunately. Almost nobody cares about the Old Testament. But you can't blame me for trying to find others who share my enthusiasm.
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Schmidt, can you define for me, what it is you refer to exactly when you say "follow the principles of the Old Testament"???
I gave the sabbath as one example. There is a small group of us who read the Old Testament together online and discuss applying the principles to life. Today we discussed the topic of practical compromise. Both Abraham and David were very practical people who compromised when necessary to achieve their goals. The idea of resigning to one's "fate" is very much contrary to the Old Testament. Life is supposed to be a struggle, and if you understand God's will, then you have a good chance of winning. We also discussed the Tower of Babel and the danger of giant cultural empires. Diversity is needed. Anyone who wants to understand our thinking is welcome to join one of our Old Testament readings.
I want to give this a serious response. Another sect of Judaism sure won't work, I can't even post to a jewish form without being banned. (And I am ethnically jewish.) Another sect of Islam is not going thrill members of mainstream Islam, and I have enough enemies.
To my original question "Can I follow the Old Testament in Islam?" the answer is no. But what about to the question: Can one follow the Old Testament AND Islam? In other words, follow both without associating the Old Testament with Islam. Why would anyone do this? Because while Islam may help with the afterlife or on the day of judgement, Islam currently is doing a fairly poor job at delivering immediate value in this life. (Islam did deliver in this area at the beginning, but something changed, and now it fails.) The Old Testament is focused on this life, not the afterlife. By studying the Old Testament, I have greatly improved my life here on earth. The Old Testament teaches one to accept reality and respond appropriately (not passively). It teaches how to organize strong communities that can work together to beat the world.
Most people don't know this, but the reason the Christianity conquered the world is because it began following the Old Testament. In particular, the English Puritans took the Old Testament very seriously and began following the principles of the Old Testament. The result was the British Empire. But things change, and over time Western Christianity changed and stopped following the Old Testament, and this is when the West began to go into decline. Of course I agree with Islam that Christian beliefs are misguided. But the point is that the Old Testament is a guide for how to succeed in this world, and anyone follows it, regardless of their beliefs, will succeed in this world.
I challenge any Muslim to find a conflict between the Old Testament and the Quran in required behavior (not in fact). There isn't any. This means that there is no conflict in following both at the same time. Follow the Quran for the afterlife, and follow the Old Testament to succeed in this life. Why not?
Well just be Jewish following the Old Testament. I thought the Torah was the Old Testament and if it is, just be an authentic Jew instead of all these modern heretics that call themselves Jewish. But if you need friends just convert to Islam. It is a combination of the Old Testament and New Testament and more.
The reason the English and other European Christians ruled is because they were really heathens with a Christian label. They were a pack of brigands that never really followed Christianity and still are. They are Legion.
There is a small group of us who read the Old Testament together online and discuss applying the principles to life. Today we discussed the topic of practical compromise. Both Abraham and David were very practical people who compromised when necessary to achieve their goals. The idea of resigning to one's "fate" is very much contrary to the Old Testament. Life is supposed to be a struggle, and if you understand God's will, then you have a good chance of winning. We also discussed the Tower of Babel and the danger of giant cultural empires. Diversity is needed. Anyone who wants to understand our thinking is welcome to join one of our Old Testament readings.
Sounds a bit like the old 'wake up project' but with Qur'an and Hadeeth and 24/7 lol
One thing about the Old Testament, it is very Jewish supremacist so it wouldn't go down well with other races.
Not true. The word "jew" doesn't even appear in the Torah. The Old Testament is about the Israelites which was a nation based on religion, not ethnicity. Israel was essentially the same idea as the Ummah of Islam. And the Old Testament is explicitly and repeatedly against racism. Moses had to wives, one a Midianite (presumably arab), and the other Ethiopian (black). When Aaron complained about Moses's second wife, God cursed Aaron for this. And in the story of Ruth, Ruth was welcomed into Israel even though she was a Moabite which was one of the greatest enemies of the Israelites.
Judaism really had to twist the Old Testament in the Talmud to justify its racism. The result is quite absurd. For example, when I asked a rabbi about Moses's second wife, he denied that this story was literal and insisted that it was somehow figurative in way that is consistent with Talmudic racism.
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