I've seen a lot of things written here about atheism and atheists. The more charitable items suggest that we're mentally or emotionally disturbed, and/or are suffering from some other form of dementia.
Personally, I never really considered the possibility that you religious folk were somehow demented (with some specific exceptions), just mistaken. Why can't you return the favor?
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. -- Thomas Jefferson
True wisdom is never incomprehensible. Wisdom that is incomprehensible is, by definition, meaningless.
It is exactly the other way around. The less effort it takes to understand, the lower the value of the understanding, and the less you will be able to do with it.
If it takes 5 minutes of focus to understand, it already cuts out 75% of the population. They will simply not listen for 5 minutes in a row. Therefore, there is not one idea in their heads that takes a full 5 minutes to explain. These are also the people who like Donald Trump so much. He never takes more than 30 seconds to come to the point. These people don't care that Trump just tells them half-truths. If it took Donald Trump 5 full minutes to explain anything, they would simply not vote for him. So, Trump limits the idea to something that can be explained in 30 seconds. That is the most straightforward way to become president of the USA.
But then again, that is certainly not how you create something like Google Search, or something else that will snowball into half a trillion dollars in value. Thompson's construction algorithm is a very simple, basic way of doing what Google Search does, and you won't create half a trillion dollars in value if you understand just that. Still, my gut feeling says that 99.99% of the world population will never have the willpower or courage to read it and try to understand it. That is one reason why there are so few billionaires like Sergei Brinn and Larry Page, the founders of Google.
There is only one way to become a billionaire, if you do not like to dig through complicated stuff: fooling other people, in large numbers.
Theist: I'm sorry she died, but she's in heaven now.
Me: Thank you for your kind thoughts, but she was an atheist, as am I.
[Sometimes it is left there. But often the following happens.]
Theist: Why do you reject God?
Me: I don't reject God. I'm an atheist. I don't believe God exists.
Theist: Read the holy book!
Me: I have. I found it to be full of hate and intolerance and bad ideas.
Theist: They are not bad ideas! It is the word of God! Who are you to question them? Who are you to question God?
Me: I don't question God. God does not exist to question.
Theist: So you think you know better than God what is right and wrong?
Me: I don't believe there is any God.
Theist: Why do you hate God?!
Me: I don't believe there is any God.
Theist: Who are you to judge God?
Me: I don't judge God. God does not exist to judge.
Theist: So you think I'm delusional?!
Me: You believe in something I don't believe exists. I think you are wrong. You think I am wrong too, no?
Theist: Why are you afraid to admit to and face your maker? Coward.
Me: I'm not afraid of things that don't exist.
Theist: You don't believe in God? Really?
Me: Yeah. Really. I don't believe in God.
Theist: Why do you choose to not believe?
Me: It isn't a choice. Can you choose to believe in something you don't believe in? Can you choose to believe that an apple in your hand is really a submarine?
Theist: It isn't too late. Repent and obey God.
Me: I don't believe that your god exists.
Theist: Yes you do! My holy text says everybody does. Admit it!
Me: Sorry. I really don't believe your God exists.
Theist: Why are you being so hateful, dismissive and disrespectful of my beliefs?!
Me: .....
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 09-22-2016 at 05:57 PM.
Theist: Why do you reject God?
Me: I don't reject God. I'm an atheist. I don't believe God exists.
Theist: Read the holy book!
That is not really how it works. This is how it works:
Theist: This is natural law. It cannot and should not be changed.
You: Not true. I am an atheist. I just voted for a political idiot who will replace natural law. He will just invent new laws on the fly.
Theist: Ok, but then your new invention only applies to you.
You: Not true. Our political imbecile's new laws will also restrict your freedom.
Theist: No, only God can restrict my freedom.
You: Not true. Any imbecile can change the law. All they need to do, is to sit in a parliament, and voilà, now your freedom is also gone.
Theist: No, and you are actually making people angry, because these people really like their freedom.
You: We will bomb them with our fighter jets.
Theist: What will you do, if they bomb you back?
You: We will deal with that when it happens.
Theist: I'm sorry she died, but she's in heaven now.
Me: Thank you for your kind thoughts, but she was an atheist, as am I.
[Sometimes it is left there. But often the following happens.]
Theist: Why do you reject God?
Me: I don't reject God. I'm an atheist. I don't believe God exists.
Theist: Read the holy book!
Me: I have. I found it to be full of hate and intolerance and bad ideas.
Theist: They are not bad ideas! They are holy ideas. Who are you to question them? Who are you to question God?
Me: I don't question God. I don't believe that any God exists to question.
Theist: Who are you to judge God?
Me: I don't judge God. God does not exist to judge.
Theist: So you think I'm delusional?!
Me: You believe in something I don't believe exists. I think you are wrong. You think I am wrong too, no?
Theist: Why are you afraid to admit to and face your maker? Coward.
Me: I'm not afraid of things that don't exist.
Theist: You don't believe in God? Really?
Me: Yeah. Really. I don't believe in God.
Theist: Why do you choose to not believe?
Me: It isn't a choice. Can you choose to believe in something you don't believe in? Can you choose to believe that an apple in your hand is really a submarine?
Theist: It isn't too late. Repent and obey my God.
Me: I don't believe that your god exists.
Theist: Yes you do! My holy text says everybody does. Admit it!
Me: Sorry. I really don't believe your God exists.
Theist: Why are you being so hateful, dismissive and disrespectful of my beliefs?!
Me: .....
I haven't had a conversation that went like that. Usually, they will say something that prompts me to say I'm an atheist, and they immediately change the subject.
As I said, though, way up in the OP, I believe the Faithful are merely wrong, not delusional, not stupid, not mentally ill, nor anything other than wrong. For the most part, what I see as their error harms no one.
What I do not like is confrontational or aggressive proselytizing. Where this routinely takes place is at my front door, when "missionaries" show up and pretend that they can't read all of my "Go Away" signs. So far this has only been Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, but we've only been at this address for three years; I expect others will be not too far behind.
I'm sure Muslims don't like this, either:
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. -- Thomas Jefferson
I haven't had a conversation that went like that. Usually, they will say something that prompts me to say I'm an atheist, and they immediately change the subject.
The atheist proposal is always like this:
Stop believing in God! It is not God who makes the law. No, it is a bunch of imbeciles, sitting in a parliament, who will suck you dry and tell you what to do. Why don't you stop believing in God, and believe in our political idiots instead?
Yeah! Good question. Why on earth do we prefer Divine Law? Aren't Donald Trump's new laws a much better plan?
Stop believing in God! It is not God who makes the law. No, it is a bunch of imbeciles, sitting in a parliament, who will suck you dry and tell you what to do. Why don't you stop believing in God, and believe in our political idiots instead?
Yeah! Good question. Why on earth do we prefer Divine Law? Aren't Donald Trump's new laws a much better plan?
That is not my proposal, as I believe I have made clear. It appears to be you who injects politics into every thread regardless of topic.
I haven't had a conversation that went like that. Usually, they will say something that prompts me to say I'm an atheist, and they immediately change the subject.
As I said, though, way up in the OP, I believe the Faithful are merely wrong, not delusional, not stupid, not mentally ill, nor anything other than wrong. For the most part, what I see as their error harms no one.
Whereas I see plenty of harm and plenty wrong with religion, though I separate that from the individuals who believe in it. We can agree to disagree on that. We can acknowledge that we think each other is wrong, which is kind of the point of this thread eh?
The point of the above exchange that I typed out is to demonstrate how it feels for an atheist to constantly hear these questions and comments from theists which clearly demonstrate that they either can't understand that we don't believe in God, can't accept that we don't believe in God, or insist that we must be lying about it. I am surprised if you haven't encountered that. I see it frequently. And I can promise you that you'll see it on here over and over if you stick around as long as I did before hanging it up.
I pass the baton to you good sir I came to this board a decade ago for the same reasons that you did; because I saw a group of people being attacked and maligned by my fellows and I wanted to see what they were all about. I wanted to dispel some myths for myself. In my case it was shortly after 9/11, and there was a lot of anti-muslim hate being slung around; most of which was completely unwarranted. In your case it is in the era of Daesh etc and not a whole lot has changed about this.
I learned, as you have or are or will, that Muslims are a vastly diverse group of people, including some who are liberal, some who are kind and gentle, and others who are quite the opposite. I dispelled for myself many myths that I heard anti-muslims say that I knew couldn't be true, and confirmed some others that I thought wouldn't be true. I spent about a decade looking into it, and my presence here was just a small part of that. I formed my own ideas and conclusions about it and though I always keep an open mind, my thoughts on it have now settled to the point that I have moved on (mostly to trying to understand the regressive left, who as a classical liberal totally perplex me).
I still occasionally lurk here, but won't be posting much anymore, and I hand off the baton of one of the more frequently posting resident atheists to you my good sir.
Just to say, I don't think atheists are insane or delusional, just mistaken and maybe a little stubborn. I think that feeling is mutual tho.
This has all reminded me, I live in a small town, not even many Muslims around, and I had never met an atheist until I was around 13. I remember sitting outside an exam hall for a religious studies exam, waiting to be let in, discussing with two other girls, and then our conversation kind of steered to a point where one of the girls said 'I'm an atheist.'
And I remember we stared at her in shock like she was insane, . (In my defence, it sounded so strange to me then).
Funnily enough, I've never actually met another atheist since then. No idea if they're just not around or they like to keep a low profile.
I haven't had a conversation that went like that. Usually, they will say something that prompts me to say I'm an atheist, and they immediately change the subject.
As I said, though, way up in the OP, I believe the Faithful are merely wrong, not delusional, not stupid, not mentally ill, nor anything other than wrong. For the most part, what I see as their error harms no one.
What I do not like is confrontational or aggressive proselytizing. Where this routinely takes place is at my front door, when "missionaries" show up and pretend that they can't read all of my "Go Away" signs. So far this has only been Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, but we've only been at this address for three years; I expect others will be not too far behind.
I'm sure Muslims don't like this, either:
lol to be entirely honest, the sunday morning, or these days, saturday morning preachers can be quite annoying although every now and then I dont mind a conversation with them
I do understand, I do not like the confrontational type, either.
As Muslims we believe and know Islam is true, therefore, logically, we know atheism IS wrong.
Lets just tolerate our differences, right? As long as you do not attack me for my faith, I won't attack you either. (violence rarely solves anything, except in certain situations where Justice justifies it, ya know....)
I dislike violence and stuff like that, lets just tolerate each other and respect eachother's differences. We can talk about theological topics, etc. in a respectful manner.
may Allah guide all sincere good hearts to the Truth, Al-Islam. Ameen.
And Allah knows best.
Last edited by Serinity; 09-22-2016 at 09:14 PM.
Meaning of Shirk according to The Qur'an
" Worshipping anyone or anything besides Allah " or " distributing anything exclusive to Allah, to anyone or anything else "
Meaning of Tawheed according to The Qur'an Worshipping none but Allah. Affirming whatever is exclusive to Him, Him alone.
Whereas I see plenty of harm and plenty wrong with religion, though I separate that from the individuals who believe in it. We can agree to disagree on that. We can acknowledge that we think each other is wrong, which is kind of the point of this thread eh?
My own private theory is that Religion was the first science, the first attempt to explain the world. For a time it worked, in that it could be adapted to explain varying circumstances. For some people it still works, to varying degrees.
The danger arises from those for whom religion works all the time for everything, the ones who prefer prayers to antibiotics, for example. Even that is fine by me, so long as it is not forced on others. If you want prayers rather than antibiotics for your infection, not my problem; if you want prayers instead of antibiotics for a child's infection, even your own child, I'll make it my problem. And so on.
point of the above exchange that I typed out is to demonstrate how it feels for an atheist to constantly hear these questions and comments from theists which clearly demonstrate that they either can't understand that we don't believe in God, can't accept that we don't believe in God, or insist that we must be lying about it. I am surprised if you haven't encountered that. I see it frequently.
I'm retired and live rather quietly, and I can afford to be picky about who I talk to. Also, I learned a long time ago not to involve my ego in online conversations; I'll walk away from a jerk at a moment's notice. I'm too old and have gone through too much to waste my time on stupid.
But about that exchange of yours, why not have a little fun with it? Your responses should repeat your correspondent's statements and questions, but substitute their god for the god of your choice. Me, I'd use the Flying Spaghetti Monster, since I'm ordained in his Holy Noodliness' faith.
Or, simply explain that not having faith in their god is exctly like their lack of faith in, oh, Freya.
I pass the baton to you good sir I came to this board a decade ago for the same reasons that you did; because I saw a group of people being attacked and maligned by my fellows and I wanted to see what they were all about. I wanted to dispel some myths for myself. In my case it was shortly after 9/11, and there was a lot of anti-muslim hate being slung around; most of which was completely unwarranted. In your case it is in the era of Daesh etc and not a whole lot has changed about this.
I learned, as you have or are or will, that Muslims are a vastly diverse group of people, including some who are liberal, some who are kind and gentle, and others who are quite the opposite. I dispelled for myself many myths that I heard anti-muslims say that I knew couldn't be true, and confirmed some others that I thought wouldn't be true. I spent about a decade looking into it, and my presence here was just a small part of that. I formed my own ideas and conclusions about it and though I always keep an open mind, my thoughts on it have now settled to the point that I have moved on (mostly to trying to understand the regressive left, who as a classical liberal totally perplex me).
If the baton is worth anything, I may sell it, or use it to stir my oatmeal.
As I said elsewhere on IB, I've learned that Muslims are just like everyone else, they just dress funny, and some of them have some strange ideas; I'm still getting my head wrapped around the one who is disgusted with Mickey Mouse's sex life.
Anyway, I plan on hanging around here for a while. Most of the folk here are pretty friendly, and they're far more interesting to talk to than the denizens of the two atheist boards I belong to.
What I do not like is when athiests bundle up religions as somewhat "the same" far from it.
For example:
In Islam, one shouldn't, if one is infected, and has the medicine, just pray and do nothing about it.
That is like the one who prays to Allah and does not tie his camel (puts in his efforts/takes the medicine.)
The One who simply prays, doesn't truly understand Qadr (AFAIK)
and believing in Truth isn't like believing in Falsehood.
Any scholar can confirm.......
Last edited by Serinity; 09-22-2016 at 09:23 PM.
Meaning of Shirk according to The Qur'an
" Worshipping anyone or anything besides Allah " or " distributing anything exclusive to Allah, to anyone or anything else "
Meaning of Tawheed according to The Qur'an Worshipping none but Allah. Affirming whatever is exclusive to Him, Him alone.
What I do not like is when athiests bundle up religions as somewhat "the same" far from it.
For example:
In Islam, one shouldn't, if one is infected, and has the medicine, just pray and do nothing about it.
That is like the one who prays to Allah and does not tie his camel (puts in his efforts/takes the medicine.)
The One who simply prays, doesn't truly understand Qadr (AFAIK)
Any scholar can confirm.......
great point!
Personally, Islam is vastly different to every other religion in many major facets that sometimes I facepalm when I hear atheists lumping religions together in one large pile. Namely famous atheists such as Dawkins or Krauss.
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Array
czgibson liked this post
(In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)
. (In my defence, it sounded so strange to me then).
guide all sincere good hearts to the Truth, Al-Islam. Ameen.
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Posting Permissions
Quote
Bookmarks