The Muslim Concept of Jesus: Discussion Between Mufti Abdur Rahman & Dr Brendan Devit

Thanks for offering this video. It helps me to understands better what the Islamic view of Jesus is.

I'll offer below what the Bible says, showing how Christianity and Islam contradict each other in regards to Jesus.

Because Islam denies that Jesus died on the cross for our sin, this makes Islam ANTI-CHRIST, as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible. This shows that Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin and rose again. This Mufti claims that Adam's creation was miraculous therefore the birth of Jesus is no more special, thus claiming that Jesus was not begotten of God. Sadly this Mufti fails to understand the difference.Consider the difference between the first man Adam, and the last Adam (who is Jesus Christ).1Corinthians 15:45"Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."And note the following verse showing that first comes the physical, and later comes the spiritual.1Corinthians 15:46"But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual."Thus we see that the first Adam symbolizes the physical man, which dies in sin, whilst the last Adam (Jesus Christ) is SPIRITUAL.Jesus said in John 3:6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."This life we all live now is a battle about whether we choose to remain in the flesh (like the first Adam who died in sin) OR the spirit (being baptized into Christ, who is the last Adam, being spiritual). Being born of God is to be born of the Spirit. Christians are born of God, as defined in 1John 5:1."Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

I'll repost my previous post as being new to this forum I seem to have done something to wrong which resulted in losing the paragraph spacing I originally had.


Thanks for offering this video. It helps me to understands better what the Islamic view of Jesus is.

I'll offer below what the Bible says, showing how Christianity and Islam contradict each other in regards to Jesus.

Because Islam denies that Jesus died on the cross for our sin, this makes Islam ANTI-CHRIST, as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible.
This shows that Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin and rose again.


This Mufti claims that Adam's creation was miraculous therefore the birth of Jesus is no more special, thus claiming that Jesus was not begotten of God. Sadly this Mufti fails to understand the difference.

Consider the difference between the first man Adam, and the last Adam (who is Jesus Christ).

1Corinthians 15:45"Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."


And note the following verse showing that first comes the physical, and later comes the spiritual.

1Corinthians 15:46
"But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual."Thus we see that the first Adam symbolizes the physical man, which dies in sin, whilst the last Adam (Jesus Christ) is SPIRITUAL.

Jesus said in John 3:6

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."


This life we all live now is a battle about whether we choose to remain in the flesh (like the first Adam who died in sin) OR the spirit (being baptized into Christ, who is the last Adam, being spiritual).


Being born of God is to be born of the Spirit.

Christians are born of God, as defined in 1John 5:1.

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

Hi Eric H, and thanks for the welcome.

I did indeed find the video informative.
As for making judgments against each other, I disagree with your claim as in the video the Mufti did exactly that against those of the book who do not turn to Islam. I likewise shared what God says in the Bible about those who reject Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin.

Both that Mufti and I respectfully shared what Islam and Christianity teaches through scripture. It's important that we not conceal God's truth on such an important issue as everlasting life.

BTW, I'm an ex-Catholic so I know where you're coming from.
However I'm now a non-denominational Christian.

Hi Eric,

Quoting scripture such as 1Corinthians 15:45, etc, shows to Muslims God's truth on issues that that Mufti spoke on and misunderstood.
But ultimately it is the gospel of God's kingdom that we Christians preach, that is if you believe on Jesus, the Son of God who died for the sin of the world, then you shall have everlasting life.

God's will is that we believe on Jesus (John 6:40).
Jesus even tells us in John 16:9 that unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of. We see this also in Revelations 20:12 about judgement day. Christians should not withhold God's gospel from Muslims or anybody else.


You are correct, there is only one Christian denomination (1Corinthians 1:13), and that is the body of Christ, made up of Christians from various church labels. Having been a former Catholic I understand how it feels being in a church that is considered to have compromised so much on God's word. But I've since learned that God is not restricted to man's divisive labeling, hence why I'm non-denominational.

However, the gospel of God's kingdom should be shared, using even interfaith dialogue to attain this.

@Holy branch

Greetings and peace be with you Holy branch.

Difference will not become a problem if we do not regard it as problem. But it will become a big trouble if we start thinking that the others have to agree with us.

Some of my maternal relatives are Protestant Christians, few of my friends are Christians, and I studied in Catholic elementary school. Yes, there is faith difference between me and those Christians. But we never regard this difference as problem. So, my relationship with them is always good.

As Muslim, of course, my belief on Jesus (pbuh) is different than yours as Christian. But is it a problem for us?.

Hi ardianto,

Like you said differences "will become a big trouble if we start thinking that the others have to agree with us"

In any forum debate, etc, there will be those who respectfully disagree, and there will be those who take offence if you do not agree with them. I'm of the group that can respectfully disagree.

I see you are from Indonesia, and I have found that most Indonesians are respectful, friendly people.

An Indonesian Muslim friend told me that middle east Muslims are "crazy". I tend to agree with her as the middle eastern culture is a very volatile one. It's such extreme attitudes that has created the likes of Saudi Arabia, ISIS, HAMAS, UAE, etc.

I, like you, prefer honest debate and respectful disagreement.

format_quote Originally Posted by Holy branch

Hi ardianto,

Like you said differences "will become a big trouble if we start thinking that the others have to agree with us"

In any forum debate, etc, there will be those who respectfully disagree, and there will be those who take offence if you do not agree with them. I'm of the group that can respectfully disagree.

I see you are from Indonesia, and I have found that most Indonesians are respectful, friendly people.

An Indonesian Muslim friend told me that middle east Muslims are "crazy". I tend to agree with her as the middle eastern culture is a very volatile one. It's such extreme attitudes that has created the likes of Saudi Arabia, ISIS, HAMAS, UAE, etc.

I, like you, prefer honest debate and respectful disagreement.

So you've gone from talking about respect to disrespecting an entire region, its people, religion and culture. Oh and you clearly have very little understanding of the organisations you just mentioned. ISIS has about as much to do with muslims and middle eastern people as I do with the pope

format_quote Originally Posted by Holy branch

[/COLOR][/I]UAE

Really? UAE? what's wrong with UAE? it's currently the best Arab country (as voted by a lot people) the culture is very interesting,it's people are cool,and they are a young and small country but big by its history and impact on the Middle East,I see no problem with that country.

Hi,

I respectfully disagree with you, as does my Indonesian Muslim friend who told me that middle east Muslims are crazy.

The evidence clearly contradicts your claims.

As for Saudi Arabia, HAMAS, etc, it's clear there are many similarities they share with ISIS.

Death for apostasy, death for adultery, death for homosexuality, discrimination against non-muslim religions, etc are all Islamic principles that are practiced by Muslims in the middle east well beyond ISIS. Thus we see that claims that ISIS are not Muslims is clearly false as proven by the practices of states like Saudi Arabia, etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

Doesn't that, by default - exclude you - from the fold of Christianity?
How do you "interpret" the bible?
Which "version" do you follow?
And how did you decide to paint each and every denomination of Christianity as "unworthy" of your interest? And from that, did you not once sit to think - I'm now a renegade Christian who stands alone, with no church?
How do you worship God? By prostrating? Or by putting hands together like a Hindu?

Hi Scimi,

Being non denominational does not exclude one from Christianity. In fact when you read 1Corinthians 1:13 you'll see that being non denominational is required as implied in 1Corinthians 1:11-13 which speaks against divisions.

1Corinthians 1:11-13
For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

As for how Christians interpret God's word, that is by spiritual revelation.

1Corinthians 2:13-14
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Jesus is the only teacher for Christians.
Matthew 23:8
But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,and you are all brethren.

1John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us) which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.


Christians worship God in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-24
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

Sure, painting an entire region of the earths inhabitants as crazy is justified just becuase your Indonesian "friend" told you so lol...

Actually my Indonesian Muslim friend made that comment about the middle east based on it's well known reputation for violence and strict adherence to Islamic practices.

Europe in particular has seen this by middle eastern rape culture by has been brought through the Muslim immigration.

I see likewise secular Muslims like Tarek Fatah of the Muslim Canadian Congress who called upon the Canadian senate to consider banning Muslim immigration from Muslim countries (such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc) known for fundamentalism.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

Apostacy followed by Treason is punishable by death - at least in Islam we have one more requirement than the rest of the worlds nations for treason - being one must also leave the faith.

Whereas in the west, religous or nay - you commit treason and get caught - you die. Simple.

Clearly you share some of the same beliefs as ISIS, thus proving my point.

But I've seen such justifications before of Islam's death for apostasy law.
It describes a god who relies upon followers to enforce death penalties on his behalf.

Regarding the tactic of threatening death for apostasy, it's interesting to note that one of the world's most respected Sunni scholars, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, admitted in 2012 that if Muslims had "GOTTEN RID OF THE APOSTASY PUNISHMENT, ISLAM WOULDN'T EXIST TODAY".

But the one true God in Christianity is all powerful and it is He who separates believers from non believers on judgement day. Vengeance is mine says the Lord, Hebrews 10:29-31.
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

Not just this, but apostates in Judaism, and Christianity are to be put to death too, or was you willfully ignorant of this?

Deuteronomy, Chapter 13
KJV

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

You actually have no leg to stand on.

Actually you fail to understand the Old Testament.
The Law of Moses was given to show to mankind (through the physical Jews) that we are unable to keep the principles of God, and thus we needed a savior.

Galatians 3:23,24
But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

Oh, one last thing, the Holy Branch (your username) is the Olive Branch - which is a sign of peace and good will... irony is that you came here to argue and paint.
Scimi

Actually my choice of nickname, the Holy Branch, is to do with Christians being holy as we have been grafted into the olive tree, which is Jesus Christ (who is holy, thus making Christians holy, Romans 11:16).

And it is Christ Jesus who brought peace between mankind and God.

BTW, apart from your support for death for apostasy, do you also support death for adultery, insulting Mohammed, homosexuality?

format_quote Originally Posted by Holy branch

Thanks for offering this video. It helps me to understands better what the Islamic view of Jesus is.

I'll offer below what the Bible says, showing how Christianity and Islam contradict each other in regards to Jesus.

Because Islam denies that Jesus died on the cross for our sin, this makes Islam ANTI-CHRIST, as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible. This shows that Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin and rose again. This Mufti claims that Adam's creation was miraculous therefore the birth of Jesus is no more special, thus claiming that Jesus was not begotten of God. Sadly this Mufti fails to understand the difference.Consider the difference between the first man Adam, and the last Adam (who is Jesus Christ).1Corinthians 15:45"Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."And note the following verse showing that first comes the physical, and later comes the spiritual.1Corinthians 15:46"But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual."Thus we see that the first Adam symbolizes the physical man, which dies in sin, whilst the last Adam (Jesus Christ) is SPIRITUAL.Jesus said in John 3:6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."This life we all live now is a battle about whether we choose to remain in the flesh (like the first Adam who died in sin) OR the spirit (being baptized into Christ, who is the last Adam, being spiritual). Being born of God is to be born of the Spirit. Christians are born of God, as defined in 1John 5:1."Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

Islam is not anti christ. In fact we love christ and respect him as a prophet. We do not see him as the son of God or as equal to god or god himself. I want to ask you how can god be born and die? Secondly, what would have stopped Allah from destroying jesus? Lastly, if humans were unworthy of forgiveness(which is why christians think jesus was sacrificed) then why would Allah not destroy us? Do you really think Allah needs a third party?Is he incapable of forgiving us on his own? Also,I would encourage you to look up the discrepancies in the Bible, because there are many.The Bible has been changed countless times over the centuries and I dont just mean how it is worded. The actual stories have been changed. One great example of this is JamesUssher,Archbishop of Armagh (primate of all Ireland). In the mid 1600s he was a respected scholar of the bible. He constructed a chronology of human and Earth existence in which he estimated that the Earth was created in 4004 B.C and was only a few thousand years old. This was taken as fact even though he has no evidence to back his claims up and was soon printed in the margins of the bible. Which is why some Christians falsely believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old (trust me I have met these people).
Another example is the old testament which is largely ignored by many christians. The image of Isa (Jesus) is completely altered because only after the new testament was Isa thought of as being equal to Allah or as Allah himself. However, Isa never claimed to be God. Look at a bible from the 1300's I promise you it would be completely different.

Islam is not anti christ. In fact we love christ and respect him as a prophet. We do not see him as the son of God or as equal to god or god himself. I want to ask you how can god be born and die?

Why do you claim that God is not all powerful and thus unable to manifest Himself as a physical man and die physically?

Islam is anti Christ as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible.
That is because Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God who died for our sins and thus saving us.

Because of Christ's sacrifice Christians cannot be charged with sin (Romans 8:33, 1John 3:9). On judgement day Christians are seen as righteous, holy, perfect and sinless, and this is because of Christ's sacrifice.

But those who reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died for our sin, sadly they still remain in sin and thus on judgement day they will be condemned to Hell for their sin.

Secondly, what would have stopped Allah from destroying jesus?

I really don't know what your point is with this question.

Lastly, if humans were unworthy of forgiveness(which is why christians think jesus was sacrificed) then why would Allah not destroy us? Do you really think Allah needs a third party? Is he incapable of forgiving us on his own?

You fail to understand that the penalty for sin is death.
That's why Jesus died for our sin. And those who believe on him are baptized into his death on the cross (Romans 6:3) which means that our death penalty for sin has been paid when we believe on Jesus.

Only those who are perfect, righteous, holy and sinless may enter into God's kingdom.
And Christians have this covering of perfection (Hebrews 10:14), righteousness (Romans 4:5), holiness (Romans 11:16), sinlessness (1John 3:9) as we are one in Christ.

Also,I would encourage you to look up the discrepancies in the Bible, because there are many.The Bible has been changed countless times over the centuries and I dont just mean how it is worded. The actual stories have been changed. One great example of this is JamesUssher,Archbishop of Armagh (primate of all Ireland). In the mid 1600s he was a respected scholar of the bible. He constructed a chronology of human and Earth existence in which he estimated that the Earth was created in 4004 B.C and was only a few thousand years old. This was taken as fact even though he has no evidence to back his claims up and was soon printed in the margins of the bible. Which is why some Christians falsely believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old (trust me I have met these people).

I've seen these allegations before, just as with the claims about the many inaccuracies of the Quran, the destruction of the first Quran (Hasfah Codex) by later rival Muslim leaders, etc, etc. Such debates are go nowhere. I suggest you just keep to comparing the essential message of salvation.

Another example is the old testament which is largely ignored by many christians. The image of Isa (Jesus) is completely altered because only after the new testament was Isa thought of as being equal to Allah or as Allah himself. However, Isa never claimed to be God. Look at a bible from the 1300's I promise you it would be completely different.

God has various names in the Bible.


God called Himself “I AM”.
Exodus 3:14 in Old Testament.
“And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.”

Jesus called himself “I AM”, and the Jews sought to stone him to death for saying this.
John 8:58 in New Testament.
“Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Other Bible scriptures telling us that Jesus is God.


Isaiah 9:6 in Old Testament
For unto us a Child (Jesus Christ) is born,
Unto us a Son (Jesus Christ) is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED
Wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD,
EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace.

BTW, these Bible verses stating that Jesus is God are also found in the John Wycliffe Bible translation from the 1300's