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A verse adressing the people of the book
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    eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    A verse adressing the people of the book

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    O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

    Quran 4 171
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    A verse adressing the people of the book

    "Go easy on yourself, for the outcome of all affairs is determined by God's decree. If something is meant to go elsewhere, it will never come your way, but if it is your by destiny, from you it cannot flee."

    Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (RA)

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    talibilm's Avatar
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    Re: A verse adressing the people of the book

    A near Similar thread is already under preparation from me for a week or so . But this is an important subject , a duty on Muslims. hope to post it soon inshallah.

    - - - Updated - - -

    BUYING LOSS INSTEAD OF GAIN

    174. Verily, those who conceal what Allâh has sent down of the Book, and purchase a small gain therewith (of worldly things), they eat into their bellies nothing but fire. Allâh will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor purify them, and theirs will be a painful torment.

    175. Those are they who have purchased error at the price of Guidance, and torment at the price of Forgiveness. So how bold they are (for evil deeds which will push them) to the Fire.


    176. That is because Allâh has sent down the Book (the Qur'ân) in truth. And verily, those who disputed as regards the Book are far away in opposition.
    Last edited by talibilm; 11-08-2017 at 03:21 PM.
    A verse adressing the people of the book

    My Sect : No Sect

    My Aqeedha : Aqeedha of Sahabas as in http://legacy.quran.com/112

    Just a Muslim with Glorious Quran and (hadith) sunnah as my guide as in verse 41:33 '' And who is better in speech than one who invites to Allah and does righteousness and says, "Indeed, I am of the Muslims."

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    Thekafir's Avatar
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    Re: A verse adressing the people of the book

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

    Quran 4 171
    I made a video about this verse on my facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/EricThekafi...8248865008377/

    The same video might be on my youtube channel too... not sure.

    The thesis of this video deals with the "And do not say, "Three";"... no Christians EVER worshiped three different Gods. Father / Son / Mary.... which the verse implies. This is written on the inner and outer ambulatories on the Dome of the Rock... and are the earliest inscriptions we find from the Quran.

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    Bushwackk's Avatar
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    Re: A verse adressing the people of the book

    Quote Originally Posted by Thekafir View Post
    I made a video about this verse on my facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/EricThekafi...8248865008377/

    The same video might be on my youtube channel too... not sure.

    The thesis of this video deals with the "And do not say, "Three";"... no Christians EVER worshiped three different Gods. Father / Son / Mary.... which the verse implies. This is written on the inner and outer ambulatories on the Dome of the Rock... and are the earliest inscriptions we find from the Quran.
    A bit presumptious of you to say "no Christian ever"... when I know better
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    A verse adressing the people of the book


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    Thekafir's Avatar
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    Re: A verse adressing the people of the book

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    A bit presumptious of you to say "no Christian ever"... when I know better
    you are prolly right on that --- there are some really stupid Christians out there... but there are some really smart ones too. I once had a Muslim try to tell me that Saint Augustine believed there were three Gods... *SIGH*... misconceptions are often times very hard to correct!

    The point is though... here you would say that Allah --- speaking on an authoritative divine knowledge of what Christians believe (they believe that there are three gods - not a Triune nature of God) got it wrong. If God were to describe what Christians believe --- why would he not understand the difference between a trinitarian understanding of God verses three separate and distinct Gods?

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    Grandad's Avatar
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    Re: A verse adressing the people of the book

    Quote Originally Posted by Thekafir View Post
    "... no Christians EVER worshiped three different Gods. Father / Son / Mary.... which the verse implies.
    'People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about Allāh except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of Allāh, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So, believe in Allāh and His messengers and do not speak of a three - stop (this), that is better for you - Allāh is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. The Messiah would never disdain to be a servant of Allāh, nor would the angels who are close to Him.' (Al-Nisa:171-172).

    The 'word' directed to Mary (radi Allahu 'anha) was 'Be' ('kun'). This is the word by which Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) creates all things: '….. He is the All Knowing Creator: when He wills something to be, His way is to say, ''Be'' – and it is! So glory be to Him in whose Hand lies control over all things. It is to Him that you will all be brought back.' (Ya Sin: 81-83).

    The words: 'a spirit from Him' refer to Yeshua's created spirit (soul); one that was pure; free from any taint of sin or corruption – as all souls are at the moment of conception.

    Al-Nisa:171-172 make it clear that Yeshua (radi Allahu 'anhu) is not divine. There is nothing in these verses to suggest that Mary is part of a trinity.

    Perhaps you are confusing Al-Nisa:171-172 with these verses:

    'When Allāh says: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people, ''Take me and my mother as two gods alongside God''?' he will say: ''May You be exalted! I would never say what I had no right to say - if I had said such a thing You would have known it: You know all that is within me, though I do not know what is within You, You alone have full knowledge of things unseen - I told them only what You commanded me to: ''Worship Allāh, my Lord and your Lord.'' I was a witness over them during my time among them. Ever since You took my soul, You alone have been the watcher over them: You are witness to all things and if You punish them, they are Your servants; if You forgive them, You are the Almighty, the Wise.''' (Al-Ma'ida: 16-118).

    These verses are prophetic. The conversation between the Exalted and Yeshua takes place on the Day of Judgement; when the prophets – in common with everyone else – are asked give an account of their lives.

    Yeshua is asked to account for the fact that certain Christians have exaggerated his spiritual station, and attributed divinity to him. Yeshua denies ever giving permission for this.

    Seyyed Hossein Nasr writes:

    'Jesus indicates that he bears no responsibility for such exaggerations of his or his mother's status, but rather than directly denying that he commanded his followers to take him and his mother as gods apart from God, he demonstrates an attitude of proper comportment before God by offering a response of perfect humility, saying he had no right to utter such a thing.' ('The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary').

    Referring to Mary, Nasr writes:

    'Although traditional Christian doctrine does not view Mary as a member of the Trinity, the Quran may here be referring to certain Orthodox and Roman Catholic doctrines regarding Mary, for example, her identification as Theotokos, or ''Mother of God,'' which is a doctrinal extension of the Christian belief in Christ’s divinity....the Quran may be criticizing not Christian doctrinal formulations concerning Mary, but rather popular Christian exaggerations of Mary's status that approach divinization.'

    Geoffrey Parrinder writes:

    'In Arabia there were in the early centuries some (called Antidicomarianites) who protested against the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary. But there were cults, some semi-pagan, which exalted Mary in unseemly fashion. The Collyridians, an Arabian female sect of the fourth century, offered to Mary cakes of bread (collyrida), as they had done to the great earth mother in pagan times.

    'Epiphanius, who opposed this heresy, said that the Trinity must be worshipped, but Mary must not be worshipped. The Qur'ān may well be directed against this heresy. It gives its support against Mariolatry, while at the same time it recognizes the importance of Mary as the vessel chosen by God for the birth of his Christ.' ('Jesus in the Qur'an - Makers of the Muslim World').

    Louay Fatoohi writes:

    'I should stress another important point. A common mistake in studying the Qur’an’s discussion of Christian beliefs, including the doctrine of the Trinity, is to suggest that the Qur'an talks about the New Testament only, or simply misunderstands it. The Qur'an rejects particular Christian beliefs, regardless of whether they are found in the New Testament or not. For instance, the Qur'an rejects the worship of Mary, even though Mariolatry is not a New Testament doctrine. The New Testament does not have any special scriptural value outside mainstream Christianity, which was itself defined in the first few centuries after Jesus. The Qur'an is interested in clarifying its positions on doctrines that Christians hold, regardless of the origin of those doctrines. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger before whom similar messengers passed away, and his mother was a saintly woman.' ('Jesus The Muslim Prophet: History Speaks of a Human Messiah Not a Divine Christ').

    Concerning the Oneness of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla):

    Geoffrey Parrinder writes: 'The Qur’ān denies Christian heresies of Adoption, Patripassianism, and Mariolatry. But it affirms the Unity, which is at the basis of trinitarian doctrine.' ('Jesus in the Qur'an - Makers of the Muslim World').

    Pinder is correct to say that the Qur'an denies notions of Adoption, Patripassianism, and Mariolatry; but he is quite wrong to suggest that it: 'affirms the Unity, which is at the basis of trinitarian doctrine.' It most certainly does not.

    Louay Fatoohi writes: 'Under pressure to reconcile contradictory statements in the New Testament, Christian theologians work hard to stress that the concepts of divine oneness and unity are one and the same. The Qur'an rejects this equation, as logic does. The God of the Qur'an is one, not united." ('Jesus The Muslim Prophet: History Speaks of a Human Messiah Not a Divine Christ').

    This from the Gospel of Mark:

    'And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.' (12: 28-29; KJV).

    'Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Eḥad'. One Lord. One God. This is tawḥīd.

    'Lā ʾilāha ʾillā llāh' (There is no god but God). One Lord. One God. This, too, is tawḥīd.

    The entirety of Islamic teaching rests on the principle of tawḥīd, meaning 'oneness'. This is Islam's most fundament concept: Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) is One (Al-'Aḥad) and Single (Al-Wāḥid).

    The word 'trinity' is just another way of saying 'tri-unity'; the unity of three persons that is said to exist within the Godhead. In the Trinitarian Godhead there is not one Lord, but three. We can see this very clearly in the following song:

    'God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit, three in one. God the Father loves me so, Gave His Word so I would know. God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit three in one.

    'Three in one and one in three, God the Son, He died for me. For my sins His blood He gave, then He rose up from the grave. Three in one and one in three, God the Son He died for me.

    'Three in one and one and one in three, God the Spirit lives in me. Day by day and hour by hour- Helps me witness by His power. Three in one and one in three, God the Spirit lives in me.' (Produced for the teaching of Christian children by the CEF Press).

    Search all you like, you will find nothing in the Qur'an, and nothing in the 'aḥādīth, to support the notion that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) is a trinity (three in one and one in three).

    Have a nice day.
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    A verse adressing the people of the book

    'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.' (Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)

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    Bushwackk's Avatar
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    Re: A verse adressing the people of the book

    Quote Originally Posted by Thekafir View Post
    you are prolly right on that --- there are some really stupid Christians out there... but there are some really smart ones too. I once had a Muslim try to tell me that Saint Augustine believed there were three Gods... *SIGH*... misconceptions are often times very hard to correct!
    St Augustines theological gymnastics made him a circus act, akin to the clown! What is the point you are making?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thekafir View Post
    The point is though... here you would say that Allah --- speaking on an authoritative divine knowledge of what Christians believe (they believe that there are three gods - not a Triune nature of God) got it wrong. If God were to describe what Christians believe --- why would he not understand the difference between a trinitarian understanding of God verses three separate and distinct Gods?
    Clearly, Christians do not understand the nature of polytheism, and oft contradict their own scriptures in the most basic sense - take for example - how Christians wear a cross, or make images of Jesus, which look nothing like him (not like they had cameras is it?). Always contradicting the very idea of thou shalt not take idols before me, and thou shalt not cast graven images etc. Theologically speaking, these things (idolatry and image making) are essentially polytheism, so when you attempt to claim you know something of theology, by attempting your question, I have to sit and facepalm for you, simply because the point went over your head!

    Calling God the Father is a theological bastadisation of monotheism, meanwhile Jesus is apparently the second head of the trinity and the Son (capital S even though the Hebrew Aramaic has not capitalisations lol), the third being the holy ghost according to your belief - yet I find two Christians on VigilantCitizen arguing and both claiming they have this holy ghost - lol, you guys are hecka emotional cupcakes, admit it.

    Your collective zealotry is embarrassing and has seen more Christians stop attending the Churches on Sundays and the buildings get bought out by Muslims so they can be converted into mosques... and where planning permission has been denied, they turn them into nightclubs where the devil has his way, like they did in Brixton and a few other places I can mention.

    You have to realise, theologically, Christianity is more compromised than hinduism because Christianity claims to be monotheist which hinduism doesn't. Christianity is Polytheistic in its very essence and the theology of competing sects within the folded banner titled Christianity also has competing theologies, which begs the question "is God the author of confusion?" - the answer is, Mankind is, and Jeremiah 8:8 clearly spells that out for ya,

    If you truly like, I can debate you using only the OT and the NT (of your choice, NIV/KJV/RSV etc) and prove to you wrong on any point on theology, all without claiming I have some sort of holy spirit guiding me you game?
    Last edited by Bushwackk; 11-18-2017 at 06:43 PM.
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