David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

My atheism is not dependent on either theory.

...

Oops sorry I liked your post by mistake: Don't want people to get wrong impression now that I'm supporting athiesm.

If it is not ev3n based on the evolution theory then this is even more foolhardy my friend, because it's one thing to be fooled and duped by lying scientists and another to deny the basic logic and common sense of our intellect that tells us this magnificent creation had to have a Creator. So what excuse will you have before God if He asks you why you d3nied Him?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed.

Oops sorry I liked your post by mistake: Don't want people to get wrong impression now that I'm supporting athiesm.

If it is not ev3n based on the evolution theory then this is even more foolhardy my friend, because it's one thing to be fooled and duped by lying scientists and another to deny the basic logic and common sense of our intellect that tells us this magnificent creation had to have a Creator. So what excuse will you have before God if He asks you why you d3nied Him?

I was an atheist before I heard of the theory of evolution , or the Big Bang.

I’m an atheist because when people first started telling me about there being a god ,I didn’t believe them , I didn’t believe the stories surrounding the god, and as I got older I realised cultures all over the world , for the entire recorded history of mankind , people have been making up these kinds of stories.
There have always been people convinced these stories are true.

What’s the difference between you being convinced your god is real
&
An ancient Grecian being convinced Zeus is real
Or
A Hindu being convinced Vishnu is real
Or a Christian being convinced Jesus was god.

Being convinced something is true , does not make it true.
Considering mans propensity for inventing gods and religions , I would be very dubious of believing any ...or claiming that you know it’s true for a fact

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

I was an atheist before I heard of the theory of evolution , or the Big Bang.

I’m an atheist because when people first started telling me about there being a god ,I didn’t believe them , I didn’t believe the stories surrounding the god, and as I got older I realised cultures all over the world , for the entire recorded history of mankind , people have been making up these kinds of stories.
There have always been people convinced these stories are true.

What’s the difference between you being convinced your god is real
&
An ancient Grecian being convinced Zeus is real
Or
A Hindu being convinced Vishnu is real
Or a Christian being convinced Jesus was god.

Being convinced something is true , does not make it true.
Considering mans propensity for inventing gods and religions , I would be very dubious of believing any ...or claiming that you know it’s true for a fact

( you may not support atheism , but I hope at least you understand it a little more)

format_quote Originally Posted by Junon

Salaam

Good talk, like to share

Blurb

Are we seeing the end of the new atheism associated with the likes of Richard Dawkins? If so, what will that mean for our conception of ourselves, and could it lead to progress in science and human knowledge.

Rebellious scientist Rupert Sheldrake has been a thorn in the side of the materialist scientific worldview for decades, and has seen a shift over the last few years.

Atheism is the second fastest growing demographic in America and Europe , after Islam ... which is good for us , but bad for you .

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

Atheism is the second fastest growing demographic in America and Europe , after Islam ... which is good for us , but bad for you .

How so?

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

Atheism is the second fastest growing demographic in America and Europe , after Islam ... which is good for us , but bad for you .

I have not looked into statistics for your claim but you may be right. If you are then it is because most people in West are born Christians and when they grow up, they start seeing many contradictions in Bible. As a result many are leaving Christianity and becoming agnostic or atheist.

Western media portraits islam as evil and I know for a fact that if anyone is looking for the truth, they look into Islam as the last resort. This is why currently we may have more atheists in the West but Islam will eventually be the largest religion. It is not because I am wish that to be, it is because Islam is simple and very close to human nature. If despite all hate, Islam is the fastest growing religion then one should take it seriously.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

My morality is based on rational thought , I’m s secular humanist , I would imagine we share much of the same morality
I think it’s wrong to steal , cheat, lie, murder, etc
I think it’s wrong because I recognise the harm it’s does to other people , and to my own self esteem.

Do you think it’s wrong because it has been decreed by a god ?

What if that god had said those things were not wrong ... would you then rob, cheat , murder ?
Like it or not , you decide what is moral and what is not .

So will you please define for us the terms "good" and "bad"? Using your rationality. How will you separate "instincts" from "rationality? And of course please do tell us what is morality? is it something absolute or is it relative as well?

format_quote Originally Posted by Saira Khan

So will you please define for us the terms "good" and "bad"? Using your rationality. How will you separate "instincts" from "rationality? And of course please do tell us what is morality? is it something absolute or is it relative as well?

Good are those things that are beneficial to groups or individuals or the whole
Bad are things that are detrimental to groups or individuals, or the whole.
The balancing act is to be the tide that raises the most boats.

Morality is the recognition that your actions have consequences that affect other people.
And the responsibility to do as little harm and as much good as possible.

There is a notable book by author Sam Harris about the question of morality ,
He would say there is objective morality , if we can agree the human well-being is a common goal we can share.
If we accept this , then we can make objective moral decisions.

In my own opinion , I do not think there is objective morality , we decide what is moral and what is not, not only as individuals but as groups , and cultures.

For example
Some countries , cultures, groups think that the death penalty is morally acceptable , others do not.

There are things that we tend to agree are immoral , lying , stealing , murder for example .... I’m not sure about you , but I don’t need to be told murdering people is wrong.

If all religions and gods were somehow proved wrong tomorrow .... would you go around murdering people ?

I’m sure you would agree you do not need to believe a god is real to behave morally.

format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman

I have not looked into statistics for your claim but you may be right. If you are then it is because most people in West are born Christians and when they grow up, they start seeing many contradictions in Bible. As a result many are leaving Christianity and becoming agnostic or atheist.

Western media portraits islam as evil and I know for a fact that if anyone is looking for the truth, they look into Islam as the last resort. This is why currently we may have more atheists in the West but Islam will eventually be the largest religion. It is not because I am wish that to be, it is because Islam is simple and very close to human nature. If despite all hate, Islam is the fastest growing religion then one should take it seriously.

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.
Islam is a tiny fraction of the people that hold religious beliefs.

What do you think happens when a religion gains in popularity and gets a large influx of converts ?
It dilutes the number of true believers , it starts to fragment , it creates tensions within the religion as people start turning it to their own ends.
You only have to look at how other religions developed to see this.
If you look at Christianity now , that is how Islam will end up, just give it another 3-4 hundred years.

Islam isn’t evil , Islam is just a collection of claims and ideas.
What people do based on these claims or ideas could be called immoral, or evil.
You may say that they are not following the doctrine correctly , it does not make the action any less evil.

format_quote Originally Posted by keiv

How so?

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.
Islam is a tiny fraction of the people that hold religious beliefs.

What do you think happens when a religion gains in popularity and gets a large influx of converts ?
It dilutes the number of true believers , it starts to fragment , it creates tensions within the religion as people start turning it to their own ends.
You only have to look at how other religions developed to see this.
If you look at Christianity now , that is how Islam will end up, just give it another 3-4 hundred years.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

Christianity and Islam are rising faster then any other religion (universally) - Atheism universally is going to have a smaller share much smaller



ps - the religiously unaffiliated doesn't mean atheists only.
source
https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...t-happens-next

I agree that non affiliated does not mean atheist.
I did acknowledge that Islam is the fastest growing demographic.
You are right , non affiliated , does not mean atheist.
But the trend is clear , especially in western Europe and North America.

If you care about Islam , you should not hope for it to become really popular , it will attract converts that are not true believers.
It will dilute the number of true believers , you will end up with Islam lite.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.
Islam is a tiny fraction of the people that hold religious beliefs.

What do you think happens when a religion gains in popularity and gets a large influx of converts ?
It dilutes the number of true believers , it starts to fragment , it creates tensions within the religion as people start turning it to their own ends.
You only have to look at how other religions developed to see this.
If you look at Christianity now , that is how Islam will end up, just give it another 3-4 hundred years.

Islam isn’t evil , Islam is just a collection of claims and ideas.
What people do based on these claims or ideas could be called immoral, or evil.
You may say that they are not following the doctrine correctly , it does not make the action any less evil.

You are right that once a religion attracts more people then true believers do get diluted but you can’t compare this to Christianity. Christianity has a very fundamental problem. They have mixed up lot of things with Divine message and has corrupted the message so much that it is clear to any sincere person that Bible has been changed just by looking at so many contradictions.

Quran is preserved by Allah Himself because it is the final message for entire humanity until day of judgement. Muhammad PBUH is the last messenger and no guidance is going to come after Quran. As long as we have true source for guidance, we can always turn to it to find the right path. This is not the case with Christianity.

Muslims believe that one day all people will become Muslims ( after Jesus will come back to fight the anti-Christ) and Islam will be the only religion. After Jesus PBUH’s death, people will again start following Satan and a day will come when there will be not a single believer on earth. That’s when trumpet will be blown and everyone will die to be raised again for the Day of Judgement.

Muslims don’t care about number game. If you think that we are spending our time and energy to convert you to Islam just to increase Muslims in the world then you are mistaken. What benefit I would gain if you become Muslim? Nothing I can gain in this world if you accept Islam.

Since no prophet is going to come after prophet Muhammad PBUH, it is duty of every Muslim to share the message with every non Muslim to save them and ourselves from the hell fire. This life is temporary and is a test. How we do in this test, determines our fate on the day of judgement. That’s the only reason we are spending our time and energy is debating with you and other non Muslims. We care about you and want to share the knowledge which is given to us by God Almighty. You have free will to accept this message or reject it but I would hope that you will read Quran and do your research before you reject it or accept it. You admit that you don’t know if God exist. We are giving you the resources which can help you find that answer. If you just reject without looking into those resources then that would be a dishonest effort on your part.

format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman

You are right that once a religion attracts more people then true believers do get diluted but you can’t compare this to Christianity. Christianity has a very fundamental problem. They have mixed up lot of things with Divine message and has corrupted the message so much that it is clear to any sincere person that Bible has been changed just by looking at so many contradictions.

Quran is preserved by Allah Himself because it is the final message for entire humanity until day of judgement. Muhammad PBUH is the last messenger and no guidance is going to come after Quran. As long as we have true source for guidance, we can always turn to it to find the right path. This is not the case with Christianity.

Muslims believe that one day all people will become Muslims ( after Jesus will come back to fight the anti-Christ) and Islam will be the only religion. After Jesus PBUH’s death, people will again start following Satan and a day will come when there will be not a single believer on earth. That’s when trumpet will be blown and everyone will die to be raised again for the Day of Judgement.

Muslims don’t care about number game. If you think that we are spending our time and energy to convert you to Islam just to increase Muslims in the world then you are mistaken. What benefit I would gain if you become Muslim? Nothing I can gain in this world if you accept Islam.

Since no prophet is going to come after prophet Muhammad PBUH, it is duty of every Muslim to share the message with every non Muslim to save them and ourselves from the hell fire. This life is temporary and is a test. How we do in this test, determines our fate on the day of judgement. That’s the only reason we are spending our time and energy is debating with you and other non Muslims. We care about you and want to share the knowledge which is given to us by God Almighty. You have free will to accept this message or reject it but I would hope that you will read Quran and do your research before you reject it or accept it. You admit that you don’t know if God exist. We are giving you the resources which can help you find that answer. If you just reject without looking into those resources then that would be a dishonest effort on your part.

I don’t believe Satan exists either.

It’s not just Christianity , it’s any large movement political or religious.

Once true believers are out numbered by the wishy washy believers , people who join for the wrong reasons , then the true believers start to lose control of the movement.

Has Islam not already split into a few different branches, there are different types of Muslims .

When you say that you believe that all people will be Muslims ,,, do you mean they will convert after they die ?
When you say “ all” people , do you mean “ all” people ... so someone like ... George bush , or peadophilles, rapists ,,murderers will all be Muslims?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.

i wouldnt say that, basically the degree of personal choice diminishes with increasing group size.. but only for those in positions of responsibility.

so it very much depends on what you are responsible for and those things in your care.


basically we can establish that control is inherent, it is needed simply because.. and get this..


some life choices are detrimental to the people, the government, the country, the communities, the families.

and these ways of life are unacceptable and in the end.. un-maintainable.

what we should aim for is systems of control that increase reward for compliance.

and in itself serves to be productive for the whole.


but that would require a level of observation that "big brother" can only hope to match.

You could still question such a system for being corruptible morally and unfair for large parts of the population..

But a real system would incorporate these groups to have a function of their own.. as part the larger system.

Which is still morally ambiguous.. but more cleverly efficient.

I agree that religion is a system to control people , and the thought of a cosmic over watcher may encourage some people to behave ,
But
If you look at the world around us , religious people of all hues are just as likely to act immorally as those who do not believe in cosmic justice , so it’s not a successful system by any stretch of the imagination.

Couple this with the fact that there are so many religions claiming to be the one true religion it just confuses the matter more.

A better way to improve society would be to encourage people to think about their actions and how they impact others, that they have rights , but the right to swing their arm ends at the tip of my nose.
There are cases which the very belief in a god causes people to behave in ways I would call immoral ... Jews circumcision of children for example.


I think if your acting in a certain way because your afraid of what will happen if you don’t ... isn’t really acting morally , at least not as moral as doing the right thing because it’s the right thing to do