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    David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions (OP)


    Salaam

    Thought provoking discussion.


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    Re: David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    Islaam is justified. We believe in the Quraan because it is a miracle on its own. how it is revealed by an illiterate person, the style how it is written, how flawless it is...that modern science cannot point a flaw in it...
    There is no logical explanation how such a book can be produced in such circumstances, so it is divine....and if it is divine, then it is true...and therefore we believe in it.
    Besides, Islaam is in total harmony with science. they are each others extensions...no other religion has this.

    Science is just an approximation of the truth...one observes some strange phenomonon, believes that it may be causes by this or that, developes a theory, developes tests to examine this theory, depending on the outcome, the theory gets corrected and stands untill a more accurate test is performed to prove, disprove or correct the original theory.

    So, it is possible that science can be a little off from the truth on some subjects.

    Quraan however, is Gods word, and is therefore always the truth...If God created everything...even the laws of nature...why would He then teach us something different in the Quraan?
    That would not make sense, would it?

    So muslims support science as well, because it is a human method to understand the habitat we all live in.

    Finally, according to science it is impossible that the whole universe came into existence on its own. The development of Earth took 14 billion years. seeing what circumstances was needed to form a single DNA molecule...there is no way that it can form just by coincidence in 14 billion years.
    Besides, from Chaos does not come order. Glass is actually just molten SiO2 which is basically molten sand, deserts are full of it...yet you will never find an empty perfectly formed marmelade jar in the desert totally formed on its own...you will not find any piece of glass with the inscription "made on its own"...you will never find perfect, anatomically correct full stone statues of anything, totally made on its own....but the material is already there, for billions of years...so the world, moon, and other celestial bodies should be full with some sort of statues, yet nothing.

    From chaos does not come order. That just does not make sense...it is not logical. So there must be some other explanation for it...which is the Quraan.
    It is given information to us...So it is wise to at least investigate it.

    But despite of that small chance of happening...even if a complete full functioning cell has been formed by chance...it still is dead material.
    There is no possible explanation how dead material can come to life...evolusionist theorists speak about early enzymes that were hardly alive found each other and formed the first DNA molecule, but still the step between dead and hardly alive is infinitely huge.

    So there must be some other explanation for it...which is God.

    So to say "we do not know" is false, because we still have this given information, the Quraan. This is extra information for us to guide us, to give us directions.
    It is up to you if you walk in that pointed direction or you just dwell in the dark and try to find your own way.

    That is why we believe...and it is solid, explainable and totally logical.
    Ümit,

    Brilliant reply as usual. I always appreciate your thoughts, whether I agree with him or not.

    Dan

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    Re: David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by DanEdge View Post
    Ümit,

    Brilliant reply as usual. I always appreciate your thoughts, whether I agree with him or not.

    Dan
    Thanks Dan,

    But despite of that, I never managed to convince you...and that makes me sad.
    You seem like a perfectly reasonable guy but somehow you keep hesitating.
    I do not know how to make your hesitation go away.

    I'll keep praying for you that one day you may find the answers you seek and that the puzzle pieces will fall into place.

    Greetings,

    Ümit
    | Likes DanEdge liked this post

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    Re: David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    Islaam is justified. We believe in the Quraan because it is a miracle on its own. how it is revealed by an illiterate person, the style how it is written, how flawless it is...that modern science cannot point a flaw in it...
    There is no logical explanation how such a book can be produced in such circumstances, so it is divine....and if it is divine, then it is true...and therefore we believe in it.
    Besides, Islaam is in total harmony with science. they are each others extensions...no other religion has this.

    Science is just an approximation of the truth...one observes some strange phenomonon, believes that it may be causes by this or that, developes a theory, developes tests to examine this theory, depending on the outcome, the theory gets corrected and stands untill a more accurate test is performed to prove, disprove or correct the original theory.

    So, it is possible that science can be a little off from the truth on some subjects.

    Quraan however, is Gods word, and is therefore always the truth...If God created everything...even the laws of nature...why would He then teach us something different in the Quraan?
    That would not make sense, would it?

    So muslims support science as well, because it is a human method to understand the habitat we all live in.

    Finally, according to science it is impossible that the whole universe came into existence on its own. The development of Earth took 14 billion years. seeing what circumstances was needed to form a single DNA molecule...there is no way that it can form just by coincidence in 14 billion years.
    Besides, from Chaos does not come order. Glass is actually just molten SiO2 which is basically molten sand, deserts are full of it...yet you will never find an empty perfectly formed marmelade jar in the desert totally formed on its own...you will not find any piece of glass with the inscription "made on its own"...you will never find perfect, anatomically correct full stone statues of anything, totally made on its own....but the material is already there, for billions of years...so the world, moon, and other celestial bodies should be full with some sort of statues, yet nothing.

    From chaos does not come order. That just does not make sense...it is not logical. So there must be some other explanation for it...which is the Quraan.
    It is given information to us...So it is wise to at least investigate it.

    But despite of that small chance of happening...even if a complete full functioning cell has been formed by chance...it still is dead material.
    There is no possible explanation how dead material can come to life...evolusionist theorists speak about early enzymes that were hardly alive found each other and formed the first DNA molecule, but still the step between dead and hardly alive is infinitely huge.

    So there must be some other explanation for it...which is God.

    So to say "we do not know" is false, because we still have this given information, the Quraan. This is extra information for us to guide us, to give us directions.
    It is up to you if you walk in that pointed direction or you just dwell in the dark and try to find your own way.

    That is why we believe...and it is solid, explainable and totally logical.
    Exactly ,,, you believe
    Just like Christians believe
    Jews believe
    Hindus believe
    The Greeks and Romans believed
    The Mayan’s , Incas, Aztecs
    The ancient Egyptians , the Norse

    They all believed their gods were real,
    And If you asked them

    They would sound just like you.

    You just listed your religious beliefs , I understand you have religious beliefs.

    That’s all it is , your religious beliefs.

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    Re: David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Exactly ,,, you believe
    Just like Christians believe
    Jews believe
    Hindus believe
    The Greeks and Romans believed
    The Mayan’s , Incas, Aztecs
    The ancient Egyptians , the Norse

    They all believed their gods were real,
    And If you asked them

    They would sound just like you.

    You just listed your religious beliefs , I understand you have religious beliefs.

    That’s all it is , your religious beliefs.

    “ it was revealed by an illiterate person”
    Can you prove that claim is true ?

    If you can’t demonstrate that it’s true , I have no reason to believe it’s true.
    Am I to take it in faith ?
    Faith is not a reliable path to truth.

    If there is one thing I have learned from my time on this forum , is that Christians and Muslims both tear their holy book the same way.

    You scour the book and try to find verses that if your interpret in a certain way ,you can kind of make it fit a scientific funding
    “ this must mean that syndrome”

    If you really want to impress me ,

    Quote me a future scientific discovery from the Quran.

    Don’t wait for science to make a discovery , then search the book to find a passage that you can then point to and say ...Ah see,this meant that.

    Give me a future scientific discovery

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    Re: David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Exactly ,,, you believe
    Just like Christians believe
    Jews believe
    Hindus believe
    The Greeks and Romans believed
    The Mayan’s , Incas, Aztecs
    The ancient Egyptians , the Norse

    They all believed their gods were real,
    And If you asked them

    They would sound just like you.

    You just listed your religious beliefs , I understand you have religious beliefs.

    That’s all it is , your religious beliefs.
    NO, I explained to you why I believe. Why it is logical to believe. I gave you solid arguments for believing.

    Instead of ignoring those arguments and try to change the subject, why don't you try to provide counter arguments for them?

    You've been reacting on multiple threads. I explained them all and provided solid answers.

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    David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    NO, I explained to you why I believe. Why it is logical to believe. I gave you solid arguments for believing.

    Instead of ignoring those arguments and try to change the subject, why don't you try to provide counter arguments for them?

    You've been reacting on multiple threads. I explained them all and provided solid answers.
    You haven’t given solid arguments
    You’ve given the exact same arguments Christians, jews, and Hindus use.

    That’s all you have , philosophical arguments , assertions , and appeals to your holy book .

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    Re: David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    “ it was revealed by an illiterate person”
    Can you prove that claim is true ?

    If you can’t demonstrate that it’s true , I have no reason to believe it’s true.
    Am I to take it in faith ?
    Faith is not a reliable path to truth.
    again...yes there is enough material to point out that he actually was illiterate...so yes I could demonstrate...
    But then...just google it and find it on your own...it is clear you just came here to argue...so do your homework yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post

    If there is one thing I have learned from my time on this forum , is that Christians and Muslims both tear their holy book the same way.

    You scour the book and try to find verses that if your interpret in a certain way ,you can kind of make it fit a scientific funding
    “ this must mean that syndrome”.
    that is not true. we do not have multiple interpretations of the Quraan. The gray areas are just the product of translation errors. You must master Arabic and study history in order to fully understand what is written.

    to help the common man, we have the Tafsirs to do that job. A Tafsir is a book that gives additional information about each verse, when, where and why it was revealed, what was happening in the world at that moment, to what it refers to and how it should be interpreted.

    So just find yourself a tafsir and you will find the translation and how you should interpret it.

    Tafsir ibn Kathir is a widely accepted one and its free.
    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post

    If you really want to impress me ,

    Quote me a future scientific discovery from the Quran.

    Don’t wait for science to make a discovery , then search the book to find a passage that you can then point to and say ...Ah see,this meant that.

    Give me a future scientific discovery
    You do realize that this is just silly right?
    First, why would I want to impress you?
    Second, You want me to look into the future and tell you what discoveries science will make?
    Even if that were possible, would you believe that, and would that really impress you?

    Just an example:
    it's the year 1900. here on Islamicboard I claim that mankind would land on the moon one day according to Quraan.
    would you believe that or would you think that is a silly claim?
    Be honest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    You haven’t given solid arguments
    You’ve given the exact same arguments Christians, jews, and Hindus use.

    That’s all you have , philosophical arguments , assertions , and appeals to your holy book .
    Then provide counter arguments to the ones which you think are not solid instead of just claiming that and trying to ignore.
    | Likes HabibUrrehman, Junon, loneseeker liked this post

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    David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

    I think I’ve heard enough.

    I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
    I came on here hoping to hear something different.

    The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
    The way of thinking , the same
    The false confidence , the same.

    I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
    That was never my intention.

    I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

    I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
    Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

    Good luck for the future
    All the best .

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    Re: David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    I think I’ve heard enough.

    I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
    I came on here hoping to hear something different.

    The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
    The way of thinking , the same
    The false confidence , the same.

    I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
    That was never my intention.

    I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

    I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
    Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

    Good luck for the future
    All the best .
    Let me translate:
    You've been terrorizing people of other faiths for years. you developed some cunning arguments / questions in such a way that you can drive them in the corner easily.
    Because their religion is not flawless and therefore, they cannot answer all of your questions.
    So you came here hoping to find the same...but you bumped into hard rock unfortunately.

    The arguments are nothing like the same. If they were similar arguments, you would go into it with counter arguments...but you just ignored them all.
    You didn't offend any of us, yet you tried but was unable to.

    You do not want to be convinced God is real...that was never your intention.

    Good luck in the afterlife
    All the best
    | Likes Eric H, Junon, loneseeker, keiv liked this post

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    Re: David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

    Salaam

    Always wondered why atheists come to this forum to deconvert? This article provides some insight.



    Last edited by Junon; 08-13-2019 at 10:57 PM.

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    Re: David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

    In essence, you have explained the miracle of the Quran! It does not speak to humankind in isolation, nor was it meant for a fixed time. What you call interpretation we Muslims believe to be enlightenment. Yes, you’re absolutely right! Muslims do turn to the Quran for verification.
    The Quran is not meant to be read as merely a reference. Every verse is a clarification over the verses that come before it or after it. It is meant to be appreciated in its entirety.
    If you only read the verses in isolation you will not truly appreciate the message. When you read the Quran it becomes evident that Allah has already presupposed the Questions/Criticisms that are
    posed, by atheists and people of other faiths. Now if you believe that the Holy Quran was written by a single author, or as if oftentimes posited by the likes of sceptical historians like Tom Holland, then surely you would find many discrepancies, there would be no logical flow (that is one verse elaborating an earlier verse or making reference to what has been revealed before). The Quran I own is over a thousand pages long!)

    Surely, if you were to write a religious text you could not presuppose every single refutation. Even if you did, I think it would take more than a lifetime of dedication. Why would you?
    The first Surah (chapter) revealed to Prophet Muhammed (
    pbuh) is Surah Al-Alaq and it reads:

    Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),
    Has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood).
    Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous,
    Who has taught (the writing) by the pen [the first person to write was Prophet Idrees (Enoch)],
    Has taught man that which he knew not.
    Nay! Verily, man does transgress all bounds (in disbelief and evil deed, etc.).
    Because he considers himself self-sufficient.
    Surely! Unto your Lord is the return.
    Have you (O Muhammad) seen him who prevents,
    A slave (Muhammad) when he prays?
    Tell me, if he (Muhammad) is on the guidance (of Allah)?
    Or enjoins piety?
    Tell me if he (the disbeliever) denies (the truth, i.e. this Qur'an), and turns away?
    Knows he not that Allah does see (what he does)?
    Nay! If he ceases not, We will catch him by the forelock,
    A lying, sinful forelock!
    Then, let him call upon his council (of helpers),
    We will call the guards of Hell (to deal with him)!
    Nay! (O Muhammad)! Do not obey him. Fall prostrate and draw near to Allah!

    The first revelation begins with a challenge to anyone who disputes the word of Allah. I can’t think of any text, religious or otherwise, that is revealed in such
    a way. You would not be actively encouraging people to go away and read and seek knowledge. Yet Allah does, because he knows all.

    Moreover, Allah reveals in the Quran that you do not have to believe. Your disbelief is not in any way affecting him. Again, if you were to write out a religious text you would be actively encouraging people to follow your religion. You see, I don’t mind when people mock Islam, because I know that whatever they’re thinking or saying has already been answered or countered with a worthier question from Allah!

    In
    turn Allah also as whoever is reading the Quran to reveal a single surah like that which is in the Quran. Surely, you would not offer such a challenge, if only it is revealed by anyone else but Allah.

    ‘Or they
    say : He hath invented it! Say: then bring a surah like it unto it, and call on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.’ (Surah Yunus 10:38)
    Allah continues to challenge the reader:

    ‘Or do they say, "He invented it"? Say, "Then bring ten surahs like it that have been invented and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful.’ (Surah Hud 13-14)

    All the refutations you can ever conceive of is answered by single verses, whole Surahs and the entirety of the Quran, that is why it is the ultimate miracle from Allah!

    The Quran speaks to us, challenges us. Every turn of the page reinforces what came before it. Open any textbook, Reference book, journal, article and you are bound to find something that invites further discussion, raises discrepancies in the
    authors ideas, they are admitting to their own fallibility, they’re saying ‘Hey I cant think of everything’. Sooner or later someone comes along and finds an error. Allah challenges you to do so. When you think you have? He has later revealed further clear proofs and signs that the Quran is his word alone. That is how the glorious Quran continues throughout: that is a sublime miracle indeed!

    Now, let me turn to the matter of Science. You ask why the Quran has not revealed future scientific discoveries. Because we as humans haven’t discovered them yet!

    You can’t observe Scientific experimentation/Results/Proofs retrospectively; it’s paradoxical. Science itself is a synthesis of ideas. Previous experimentation often reveals an unintended consequence, such as the discovery of Penicillin. The Quran is fully intended. It presages everything.

    Here are a few verses from the Quran (although there are many more) that allude to Science:

    ‘And of
    everything we created a pair. That perhaps you may remember (Surah 51 verse 49)

    Traits often occur in pairs. The capacity for producing these traits is carried on Chromosomes which also occur in pairs.
    The human contains body cells which have 23 pairs of chromosomes in the nucleus. Twenty-two pairs control most of the characteristics. Pair 23 are the sex chromosomes. They carry genes that determine an embryo's sex - whether offspring are male or female: males have two different sex chromosomes, XY. females have two X chromosomes, XX.

    Atoms contain an electron pair or a Lewis pair consisting of two electrons that occupy the same molecular orbit.

    ‘He is the Knower of the unseen. Not an Atoms weight or less than that or greater, escapeth
    him in the heavens or in the earth, but it is in a clear record (Surah Saba 34:3)
    This verse clearly, irrefutably refers to
    sub atomic particles (as the Greek posited the existence of Atoms through rumination, however Democritus did not refer to the sub atomic world, as far as we know!)

    ‘There is clear record…’ the Universe is a mathematical construct with a clear mathematical order.

    ‘Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then
    we parted them? And we made from water every living thing. Will they not believe?’ (Surah Al-Anbiya verse 30)

    The above verse clearly describes the Big Bang/Singularity. And what are living organisms made of? Water! Notice also the challenge at the end of the verse.











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