About Sikhism through islam

@yandex :

I'm a freethinker from mixed background

chaotic thinking...!

As for new rasools, why not Guru Nanak or Bahau'ullah or others be one? They have a Book

No.
E.g. What is gurugranth sahib..?
It contains poems only. What is wrong if someone begins to believe in Shakespeare, wordswoth, browning,iqbal tagore or tulsidas as prophet...?

In every street you can see a new prophet if he knows poetry..?

Prophethood is nothing but a joke for you.

Btw, I can write poems in Urdu....????

Quran says no more Nabi but the hadith says Umar could be one!!

You couldn't understand it. Now see it again:

Hz Muhammad s.a.w clearly said ''there is NO nabi after me but if it were any nabi after me, it would be umar''. It doesn't mean umar to be the next nabi...

Understand...?

does not make sense if it is not at the end of the Quran

what you say doesn't make sense

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

I understand that the mushaf is not in chronological order of revelation.Al- Maidah is now chapter 5 in the mushaf.
According to scholars including Ibn Abbas the cousin of prophet Muhammad, Al Maidah is chapter 112 of 114. in order of revelation by Allah. My point is that verse 3 that says "Islam has been perfected & Allah has completed his favor on prophet Muhammad on this day" does not make sense if it is not at the end of the Quran and according to Muslim scholar themselves the last verses revealed is not this but in An Nasr!

http://tanzil.net/docs/revelation_order

If you read the list carefully, its says at the right column ("Notes"): "Except 3, revealed at Arafat on Last Hajj".
Then, regardless of whether it is succeeded by Surat Al-Nasr or not, the meaning stays the same. Because Surat Al-Nasr, which consists of three verses, does not contain any rule (hukm) and there is no change (naskh) in the shariah afterwards; so the religion is completed. Din may very well be used interchangeably with shariah. If the din is completed -and there is only one din before Allah-, it means there is no Rasul after this completion, because the Rasuls of Allah arrive with a new shariah. Just like Bahaullah pretended to do so.

As per hadith there were about 310 Rasuls or Messengers and 124000 Nabis or Prophets , All messengers or Rasuls were Prophets but All Prophets were not Rasul.

Rasul normally meant to higher Calibre among Prophets who had mostly to face AGAINST with their Rulers or The Nation of their times Normally with a new Sharia and commandments.


For example though both Yahya AS and Eesa AS were contemporaries and relatives but still were not of the same calibre. Yahya AS was a Nabi or a Prophet, so he tried to remind , make people Allah conscious but did not come with a new law against anybody in Particular or against a Nation but Isa AS was a Nabi and a Rasul so he came against the banI Israeel with the new law Injeel.

Similarly Musa AS and Shuaib As ie his father in Law were both Prophets but Musa As had an extra degree of becoming The Rasul or Messenger only after his departure from his Father in Law's place at the sacred valley of Thuwa, https://legacy.quran.com/20/12 when he went to pick up a fire to warm themselves Where Allah's call Intercepted him and spoke to him directly and made him a Rasul Assigning him to go to Firaun with a mission ( now he Becomes a Rasul or a Messenger ),before this juncture he was only a Nabi or Prophet who believed Allah and was spreading the Haq of eemaan and righteousness on the Land as a Nabi or Prophet . So when there is seal ( Closure) of Nabi or Prophethood Itself and there is nothing more to talk about the possibility of the coming of a Rasul since a Rasul has to be a Nabi first before being promoted as a Rasul.


So when Allah says Seal of Nabis or Prophets . its very clear that when a Nabi or Prophet will not come it means and implies that Rasul or Messenger can not come at all , which is higher grade than a Nabi or Prophet. All Rasuls or Messengers of Allah like Ibrahim AS, Musa, Eesa, Muhammad saws ( peace be upon them all) were sent with strong message to the tyrants or rulers or nations opposing them while Nabis or Prophets like Yacub As, Yusuf ,as Yahya as were born to Create Allah consciousness in people and lead them with the older Scripture or the older law.

So wondering why this thread is being dragged when Quran and its info are clear cut with '' wakhātama l-nabiyīna ''

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.j...er=33&verse=40

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

It doesn't make sense to say "this day Islam is perfected & all favor to prophet Muhammad is completed" when the Quran is mid way of revelation. Unless Ibn Abbas' chronological order is wrong.

the Quran is not in chronological order. Its not meant to be.

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

I have shown Muslims do sometimes supersede the hadith over Quran, read my previous posts.

Nope Quran more established then Hadith because its mass transmitted (tawattur).

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

Sabians are people with knowledge of Allah & Last day & Allah will reward them along Muslims, Christians & Jews. How can they if Allah did not give them a book/prophet?

Not the same as people of the book - people who believe in God and the last day are indeed saved.

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

I'm not preaching Sikhism & Bahai religion here, just suggesting they could be possible Rasools for their respective followers. Using the Quran, I'm just making a case that prophet Muhammad could be the last Nabi but may not be the last Rasool and possibly prophet Muhammad was sent to the Arabs only instead of the whole world. Please read all my previous posts.

No because they contradict each other. Furthermore sikhs and Bahai religion lack urgency. One believes in reincarnation - which means you get unlimited tries at life so no need to convert to the religion. Bahai faith believes in the manifestation of God even though the manifestations can contradict each other.

Islam one message all the prophets said - Do Godly things believe in God and the messenger and you going to be called to account in the after life.

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

As for the miracle part, I only commented because other members are the ones who set miracles as criteria for being Nabi/Rasool not me. That's all.

wouldn't mind hearing these other miracles and why one should believe in them? what for?

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

Of course Quran is supposed to be word of God & is superior than hadiths according to Muslims. My contention is sometime Muslims instead put hadith above the Quran when it differs in certain matters. I gave some example earlier & will add more for instance;

The Quran is the word of God. All Muslims by Ijma (consensus) and Tawatur (mass transmitted/corroborated) agree it to be. Furthermore mass transmitted sunnah (prophetic actions) like 5 prayers, fasting, certain ethical and legal principles as they have solid epistemic value.

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

1. Idols are not haram in the Quran (as long its not for worship) but idols are haram in the hadiths. Muslims/Sharia follow hadith

The story of Ibrahim (as) and the story of the breaking the Idols, The Koran's main argument in against shirk and Idol worship. Have you actually read the Quran because this is one of the major themes within the Quran which is repeated countless of times, very hard to miss unless you have never read the Quran.......

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

2. Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. Hadith says kill those leave Islam. Muslims/Shariah follow hadith

Not necessarily as the apostasy law is to do with treason as ones religion and allegiance to the ruler was one and the same in pre modern periods. I'm sure in India they do the same with traitors.

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

3. Mut'ah marriage is allowed in Quran. Mut'ah marriage is haram in hadith. Muslims/Shariah follow hadith

Very strange thing to bring up........ have you actually read the Quran because these are not actually serious Issues. Unless your in to Temporary marriages?

[QUOTE=yandex;2995098]

format_quote Originally Posted by azc

@yandex:


chaotic thinking...!




Yes, the messages of Guru Granth Sahib are in poetic form which contains guidance for people. The form of the message itself doesn't determine truth/false.
Why is it an issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messag...u_Granth_Sahib



In this hadith, prophet Muhammad first said 1.There is NO Nabi after me. Then he said, 2. If there is Any, then it would be Umar.
According to this, it is the prophet himself unsure whether there will be next in line prophet or not. If he was sure, he would have stopped after saying line no.1. He doesn't need to add no.2. Btw, it is also interesting that according to other narrations , Allah often send down revelations upon Umar's wish which seems to be a very special privilege.

Thanks

1: Do you know mystical poems of khuwaja Fared ud deen shakarganj rh are also in gurugranth sahib..? As it comprises the poetry of other saints as well, so each of them should be considered as an independent prophet of this book...?

2: So that if any liar ever claims, will be rejected.

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

In this hadith, prophet Muhammad first said 1.There is NO Nabi after me. Then he said, 2. If there is Any, then it would be Umar.
According to this,it is the prophet himself unsure whether there will be next in line prophet or not. If he was sure, he would have stopped after saying line no.1. He doesn't need to add no.2. Btw, it is also interesting that according to other narrations , Allah often send down revelations upon Umar's wish which seems to be a very special privilege.

Thanks

Yandex the more you write the more you prove that you are either Prejudiced ( such people will never learn ) or babble unreasonable arguments , one is above in your quote out of many here , which am less interested in debating these days

First you do not even understand the meaning of 'IF' at all !! I recommend you watch What If.com series in FB which have many videos with what If which means it did not happen now So , AND ''if '' it happens these will be the consequences as a conditional clause. (to reiterate the discussed ' subject's' genuinity,& to affirm its not possible at all against it) like one of What if.com series which says if the nights are not going to end (something like that) then what could happen to the Earth ?? shows its not going to happen and if it happens the Earth could not exist anymore.

And verse 5:3 did not come in the middle of revelations AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED ABOVE but just near his demise or 3 -4 months before Prophets demise

You say those differences between Prophets and Messengers is just the saying of Scholars. Scholars did not come to a conclusion from the thin air. They are experts in religion as a Doctor in Expert in health. So we can listen to many doctors on the same disease and come to the best conclusion using our own brain and reason who is the most correct. The description in above post #46 is very CLEAR CUT. if You are able to find faults in it bring it up (reasonably not like 'IF' explanation of yours which is absurd and silly) we may discuss it.

For the other Question why did Allah has mentioned as seal or closing of Prophets (not as messengers) has been already profoundly explained in my last post # 46 , It may also be due to the reason because Allah, The All Wise, knows well those who are going to bring up false religions ( or have been assumed by people as a new religion) will not bring anything NEW actively as against a Nation as the great Messengers, Rasuls ( Moses, Isa ,Muhammad etc) NORMALLY did but will resemble like in a Nabi's Normal Mission (passive) like something additional in Religion which is already existing and preached and giving it a new look as in Bahai . Qadhiyani- Ahmadhiya, Sikhism ( Guru Nanak went to Haj and non muslims are not allowed to haj you know implies Guru was a Muslim then) were taken out from the already existing Islam, so That's why Allah THE All Wise, had told clear cut that even Prophet hood is closed or sealed . So there ought to be no modified Islam at all after Muhammad .


I also see that you treat Rasuls of Allah as just a mere postbox where the message was delivered that is wrong too which resembles so called Quranists. Today we believe in the Glorious Quran its also because of the Assadique Al Ameen Prophet and the Eeman is incomplete without accepting the Bringer of this Great Quran. In some hadith NOTE prophet warning Sahabas not to ask much and if he ( Muhammad ) had said Yes it would been made a Fard (as in case of Haj i think for every year) Similarly take in case of Mihraj and 50 fard Salah if Prophet had not bargained it would be left at 50 times IOW The Rasuls of Allah have been vested with special authority (except in Haram & Halal which is Allah Ar Rab's Right only) what was Good and optimum or suitable for his Ummah BUT WITH THE PERMISSION OF ALLAH Al Muizzu. So No wonder Allah has reitterated to follow his Messenger in some verses like this

Noble Quran 3:31 '' Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Noble Quran 33:36 '' It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.''


Noble Quran 24:63 ''.................... And let those who oppose the Messenger's (Muhammad SAW) commandment (i.e. his Sunnah legal ways, orders, acts of worship, statements, etc.) (among the sects) beware, lest some Fitnah (disbelief, trials, afflictions, earthquakes, killing, overpowered by a tyrant, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.''



Learn from the knowledgeable here ( you too know something but incomplete makes you go confused) and talk something thats clear cut and unambiguous and not as you have twisted EVEN the clear meaning of 'IF'. I repeat 'If' means its NOT present now, and So ' If ' its going to be so it would be like this scenario , by which its affirmed that if a Prophet was there after him, it ought to be ONLY Umar RA , so that did not happen means there is no prophet after Muhammad AT ALL and that's it. Islam is Clear Cut in its articles of Faith and Not like Christianity etc whose articles of faith can mean anything 50/50 I and My Father are one.

delete mods

format_quote Originally Posted by umie

Your point is not valid.

The word tamatheel in the text is the plural of timthal, which in Arabic is used for every such thing as is made to resemble a natural thing, whether it is a human being, an animal, a tree, a flower, a river, or some inanimate object. Timthal is the name of every artificial thing which may have been made to resemble something made by God. (Lisan al-Arab). Timthal is every such picture which may have been made to resemble the likeness of something else, whether living or dead.” (The commentary, Al-Kashshaf). On this basis the statement of the Quran does not necessarily imply that the images made for the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) were the pictures or images of human beings and animals. They might have been floral designs or natural landscape or different kinds of decorations with which the Prophet Solomon might have decorated his buildings and works. The misunderstanding has been created by some commentators who have stated that the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) had gotten the pictures of the Prophets and the angels made for himself. They took such things from the Israelite traditions and then explained them saying that in the former Shariahs it was not forbidden to make the pictures. But while accepting and citing these traditions without question, these scholars did not keep in mind the fact that the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) was a follower of the Mosaic law and in that law making of the pictures and images of human beings and animals was also forbidden as it is in the Shariah of Muhammad (peace be upon him). And they also did not remember that because of the enmity which a section of the Israelites bore against the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him), they have accused him of crimes like polytheism, idolatry, sorcery and adultery. Therefore. one should not place reliance on the Israelite traditions and accept anything about this great Prophet, which might contradict any Shariah enjoined by God. Everyone knows that all the Prophets who came after the Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) till the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) among the Israelites were the followers of the Torah, and none of them had brought forth a new law, which might have abrogated the law of the Torah. Now the Torah clearly enjoins repeatedly that making of the pictures and images of human beings and animals is absolutely forbidden.


“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in the heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” (Exod. 20: 4) “Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, nor rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it.” (Levit. 26: 1).
“Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air. The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth.” (Deut. 4: 16-18).
“Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.” (Deut. 27: 15).
In the face of these clear and express injunctions how can it be accepted that the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) might have employed the jinns to make pictures and images of the Prophets and the angels for him? And how can this thing be admitted on the authority of the statements of the Jews who accuse the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) of idolatry due to his love for polytheistic wives?

Excellent answer jazakallah khair. Even some of the Scholars mistook this word i suppose '' tamatheel '' Can You give more proofs or ref on this words inshallah ,that could strengthen this stance

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

@Zafran



I already showed earlier that in the Quran idol is only haram for worship, not haram as art/esthetics (verse 34: 13) but the hadith say its haram even to just posses it. This is clear contradiction & the Muslims/scholar choose hadith over the Quran. This was my point.



Again, death penalty for leaving in Islam is only in hadith not Quran. The only punishment in the Quran is by Allah (in the afterlife). As for the reasoning that leaving ones religion is a treason to justify the killing, are you willing to apply the same logic, thus the pagan Arabs/Quraysh have all the right to kill the prophet then?



Every word in the Quran is supposedly of Allah, so there is no such thing as some words are less important than others.The point is ,I brought this up is to provide more evidence that Muslims/scholars abrogate the Quran by using material from the hadith. It very clear, the Quran allows mu'tah & the hadiths forbid and you accept the later.

There are even more examples, for instance in the Quran homosexuality offense is repent-able & there is no capital punishment where else the hadiths says kill them. The scholars pen a long narration to justify choosing the hadith over the Quran and this becomes Shariah. How come?
@azc





You see , when you talk about the compiled holy book, there are different concepts of it.For Muslims, Quran is 100% word of God, if you look at the Bible its more akin a mix of some "Quran" & some "hadith", for the Granth Sahib I think it consists of revelations, some inspirations & some poems from contemporaries etc. Of course khuwaja Fared ud deen is not their Guru/messenger and they know that. Doesn't all good things belong to God? I quote Sikhism just as an example, not to have Islam vs Sikhism debate. Anyway does Granth Sahib claims ownership of wisdom & calls everyone to convert to it? I don't think so. It has its purpose in North India & especially during the times of their Gurus. (just the way I think of the Quran too in the context of Arabia).

Thanks

I will comment on what i am able to for now although there is so much information here that requires correction - and edit and add a bit later inshaAllah

The book revealed to Musa strictly forbids certain things - yet the Prophets sulaiman and jesus interpreted much and put it in perspective by taking into account word and spirit based on wisdom and obedience to Allah.

What has come to us of the Bible (although it has been interpolated much by people of varying intentions) states that Prophet Sulaiman had decorative images built, there are many historical accounts of these sphynxes and other decorations scattered in writings of locals and travellers.
The Quran confirms that Prophet Sulaiman had images and huge basins etc built by jinns and divers, and that Prophet Sulaiman had been granted wisdom by Allah - and in some cases the correct understanding of matters of judgement above his father David although both were granted wisdom.


فَفَهَّمْنَاهَا سُلَيْمَانَ وَكُلًّا آتَيْنَا حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا وَسَخَّرْنَا مَعَ دَاوُودَ الْجِبَالَ يُسَبِّحْنَ وَالطَّيْرَ وَكُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ (21:79)

for, [though] We made Solomon understand the case [more profoundly] yet We vouchsafed unto both of them sound judgment and knowledge [of right and wrong]. [71] And We caused [72] the mountains to join David in extolling Our limitless glory, and likewise the birds: [73] for We are able to do [all things]. - 21:79 (Asad) -

So there is no wisdom in attempting to create a "fans of the father" and "fans of the son" schism by using incomplete testimony - since Allah the Perfect and Most Wise who knows what is best sent both David and Sulaiman, granted wisdom to both, and made one excel over the other (this can be seen in tree and horse breeding), and both father and son sometimes made mistakes and errors in judgement too since they are after all human.
These strict and non-strict divine commands, wise judgemental interpretations by Prophets sent by Allah, and mistakes by the same Prophets, also carry a statement - in that people must always be busy seeking the truth according to the given situation based on all the lawful and truthful information they have - and more if they can lawfully get it - and should be making wise decisions and appointing wise leaders to make collective decisions for them.
Those who use their good judgement and wisdom will also come to the realization that obedience to Allah and seeking of His goodwill is the only possible way of achieving stable success.
Those who go too far in their own judgement to the extent that they reject and oppose Allah -will fall into the party of Iblees and will be rejected by Allah Himself and will fail when it comes to the weighing with just judgement with the scales on the day of judgement.

It is flawed to claim that a person who
chooses a certain option based on all the knowledge he/she has with wisdom, and with obedience to Allah and the seeking of His face as his/her primary plumbline
- is taking the judgement of the Quran over the judgement of the hadith and is thereby rejecting the Prophet , or is taking the judgement of the ahadith over the judgement of the Quran and thereby rejecting Allah , and the same goes with all information.

This is the reason why people who choose wise leaders who judge from all pools of vast truthful knowledge are the most successful.
And people and leaders who measure whether their decision will fit with Allah's guidance and good pleasure (halaal, lawful, acceptable, tolerable) - a concept that derives from TAQWA - will usually end up making the best and most stable decisions.

Those who claim that the Quran/hadeeth/bible/pythagoras/darwin/newton/enid blyton shouldn't be accepted because it's not "our book" are actually like the blind men who went to the zoo to find out how an elephant possibly looks - and then came back and then killed each other until all of them were dead - because one shouted angrily that it was flat like a banana leaf, another that it was long and thick like a python, another that it was big and stout like a tree trunk - and yet another that it was brittle and sharp like a spear. Whereas if they had gotten together to speak truthfully and to sincerely understand it having left arrogance behind -they would inevitably have ended up unanimously describing an elephant.

We (interviewees) were made to put mr/mrs potato head together at our group assessment for Orange in my college days and they (assessors) took it apart and put it under the table cloth and allowed us each to use only one hand, it came out a bit wonky - but they were actually assessing our team working ability and skills. (I got the job and ended up thieving with credit cards and then ran away after they pressed charges, they were still kind enough to drop the charges though - much respect).

Anyways, the Mother of the Book by which oceans of ink would be exhausted is what contains all information and the Quran is a tiny -though very important and essential- part of it, this is why we have to learn 2+2=4 from mum and dad or whoever they hire to teach us it, and this is why we observe a cat if we want to learn how it wipes it's ar$e.


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Edit:



Here is the Quranic account of the command by Allah to the Prophet to strengthen his heart from slanders by remembering the cases - including strengths and weaknesses, successes and failings, and above all -the turning to Allah - of other Prophets before him:


17. Have patience at what they say, and remember our servant David, the man of strength: for he ever turned (to Allah..
18. It was We that made the hills declare, in unison with him, Our Praises, at eventide and at break of day,
19. And the birds gathered (in assemblies): all with him did turn (to Allah..
20. We strengthened his kingdom, and gave him wisdom and sound judgment in speech and decision.

21. Has the Story of the Disputants reached thee? Behold, they climbed over the wall of the private chamber;
22. When they entered the presence of David, and he was terrified of them, they said: “Fear not: we are two disputants, one of whom has wronged the other: Decide now between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, but guide us to the even Path..
23. “This man is my brother: He has nine and ninety ewes, and I have (but) one: Yet he says, ‘commit her to my care,’ and is (moreover) harsh to me in speech.”
24. (David) said: “He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes: truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other: Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?”…and David gathered that We had tried him: he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).

25. So We forgave him this (lapse): he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return.
26. O David! We did indeed make thee a vicegerent on earth: so judge thou between men in truth (and justice): Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of Allah. for those who wander astray from the Path of Allah, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account.

27. Not without purpose did We create heaven and earth and all between! that were the thought of Unbelievers! but woe to the Unbelievers because of the Fire (of Hell)!
28. Shall We treat those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, the same as those who do mischief on earth? Shall We treat those who guard against evil, the same as those who turn aside from the right?
29. (Here is) a Book which We have sent down unto thee, full of blessings, that they may mediate on its Signs, and that men of understanding may receive admonition.


30. To David We gave Solomon (for a son),- How excellent in Our service! Ever did he turn (to Us)!
31. Behold, there were brought before him, at eventide coursers of the highest breeding, and swift of foot;
32. And he said, “Truly do I love the love of good, with a view to the glory of my Lord,”- until (the sun) was hidden in the veil (of night):
33. “Bring them back to me.” then began he to pass his hand over (their) legs and their necks.

34. And We did try Solomon: We placed on his throne a body (without life); but he did turn (to Us in true devotion):

35. He said, “O my Lord! Forgive me, and grant me a kingdom which, (it may be), suits not another after me: for Thou art the Grantor of Bounties (without measure).
36. Then We subjected the wind to his power, to flow gently to his order, Whithersoever he willed,-
37. As also the evil ones, (including) every kind of builder and diver,-
38. As also others bound together in fetters.
39. “Such are Our Bounties: whether thou bestow them (on others) or withhold them, no account will be asked.”

40. And he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful Place of (Final) Return.

From Quran, Chapter 38.


If we look at the case of idols and like images we find amongst many other examples:

وَلِسُلَيْمَانَ الرِّيحَ غُدُوُّهَا شَهْرٌ وَرَوَاحُهَا شَهْرٌ وَأَسَلْنَا لَهُ عَيْنَ الْقِطْرِ وَمِنَ الْجِنِّ مَن يَعْمَلُ بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِ وَمَن يَزِغْ مِنْهُمْ عَنْ أَمْرِنَا نُذِقْهُ مِنْ عَذَابِ السَّعِيرِ

And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient): Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

يَعْمَلُونَ لَهُ مَا يَشَاءُ مِن مَّحَارِيبَ وَتَمَاثِيلَ وَجِفَانٍ كَالْجَوَابِ وَقُدُورٍ رَّاسِيَاتٍ اعْمَلُوا آلَ دَاوُودَ شُكْرًا وَقَلِيلٌ مِّنْ عِبَادِيَ الشَّكُورُ

They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basins as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places): "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"

Quran 34:12-13





The relaxing of the law given to Musa by Allah through a Prophet subject to Allah proclaiming: "think not that i am come to void the law but to fulfill it"....
.
3:48 And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel.
3:49 And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): “I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe.”

3:50 (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your
Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.




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43:63 When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: “Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.”

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وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ لِأَبِيهِ آزَرَ أَتَتَّخِذُ أَصْنَامًا آلِهَةً إِنِّي أَرَاكَ وَقَوْمَكَ فِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

And when Abraham said to his father Azar: "Do you take images as objects of worship? I see you and your people in clear perversion."

وَكَذَٰلِكَ نُرِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ مَلَكُوتَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَلِيَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُوقِنِينَ

Thus did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he might be of those possessing certainty:

فَلَمَّا جَنَّ عَلَيْهِ اللَّيْلُ رَأَىٰ كَوْكَبًا قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي فَلَمَّا أَفَلَ قَالَ لَا أُحِبُّ الْآفِلِينَ

When the night covered him over, He saw a planet/star: He said: "This is my Lord." But when it set, He said: "I love not those that set."

فَلَمَّا رَأَى الْقَمَرَ بَازِغًا قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي فَلَمَّا أَفَلَ قَالَ لَئِن لَّمْ يَهْدِنِي رَبِّي لَأَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْقَوْمِ الضَّالِّينَ


When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord." But when the moon set, He said: "unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray."

فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِّمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ

When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all)." But when the sun set, he said: "O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.


إِنِّي وَجَّهْتُ وَجْهِيَ لِلَّذِي فَطَرَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا أَنَا مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Indeed I have faced my face towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, as one by logical nature upright, and I am not of those who join others as partners with Allah.


Quran 6:74-79



Narrated Ar-Rubi' bint Mu'awadh:
"The Prophet (ﷺ) sent a messenger to the village of the Ansar in the morning of the day of 'Ashura' (10th of Muharram) to announce: 'Whoever has eaten something should not eat but complete the fast, and whoever is observing the fast should complete it.' "She further said, "Since then we used to fast on that day regularly and also make our boys fast. We used to make toys of wool for the boys and if anyone of them cried (out of hunger for) food, he was given those toys till it was the time of the breaking of the fast."

حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا بِشْرُ بْنُ الْمُفَضَّلِ، حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدُ بْنُ ذَكْوَانَ، عَنِ الرُّبَيِّعِ بِنْتِ مُعَوِّذٍ، قَالَتْ أَرْسَلَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم غَدَاةَ عَاشُورَاءَ إِلَى قُرَى الأَنْصَارِ ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَصْبَحَ مُفْطِرًا فَلْيُتِمَّ بَقِيَّةَ يَوْمِهِ، وَمَنْ أَصْبَحَ صَائِمًا فَلْيَصُمْ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَكُنَّا نَصُومُهُ بَعْدُ، وَنُصَوِّمُ صِبْيَانَنَا، وَنَجْعَلُ لَهُمُ اللُّعْبَةَ مِنَ الْعِهْنِ، فَإِذَا بَكَى أَحَدُهُمْ عَلَى الطَّعَامِ أَعْطَيْنَاهُ ذَاكَ، حَتَّى يَكُونَ عِنْدَ الإِفْطَارِ‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 1960
In-book reference : Book 30, Hadith 67
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 3, Book 31, Hadith 181

(deprecated numbering scheme)


I'm certain those toys weren't long legged barbie dolls which little boys stare at and sometimes uncover to look at...... - but am finding it difficult to imagine what they could most likely have been other than basic toy camels/sheep/dolls.

Anyone who's struggled with the concept of children's cartoons would have an idea of what i'm talking about.
But again, that wouldn't be the same as drawing nude images of strange women or men would it?
Then a line would have to be drawn (excuse the unintended irony) or each case looked into separately - a lot of work for judges - but easy only if the people's hearts have been tuned to obedience of Allah correctly.



What about decorative statues in villages and cities - there's something a bit like it mentioned here:

123. The ‘Ad (people) rejected the apostles.
124. Behold, their brother Hud said to them: “Will ye not fear ((Allah))?
125. “I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust:
126. “So fear Allah and obey me.
127. “No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.
128. “Do ye build a landmark on every high place to amuse yourselves?
129. “And do ye get for yourselves fine buildings in the hope of living therein (for ever)?
130. “And when ye exert your strong hand, do ye do it like men of absolute power?
131. “Now fear Allah, and obey me.
132. “Yea, fear Him Who has bestowed on you freely all that ye know.
133. “Freely has He bestowed on you cattle and sons,-
134. “And Gardens and Springs.
135. “Truly I fear for you the Penalty of a Great Day.”
136. They said: “It is the same to us whether thou admonish us or be not among (our) admonishers!
137. “This is no other than a customary device of the ancients,
138. “And we are not the ones to receive Pains and Penalties!”
139. So they rejected him, and We destroyed them. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.
140. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.

From Quran, Chapter 126


The only idea i can get from it is that if Sulaiman was trapping jinns with the material he had confiscated, he was only using it for Allah's work in obedience to Him

Wa maa kafara Sulaimaan wa laa kinna ash-Shayatueena kafaroo.

And Sulaimaan did not ungratefully reject Allah, but the satans ungratefully rejected Allah.

And if he was making sphynxes as decor for Allah's house - he was only doing it with the intention of pleasing Allah , and this doesn't make the action a ruling - since he may possibly have fallen short in judgement as anybody is prone to do.
It was ultimately a test for him and for the people, just as every ruling, abrogation, success, and failure is -on the path to wisdom until the day of judgement.



When Prophet Muhammad cut down the trees of Banu Nadeer despite the general condemnation of such an act in the Quran - he was doing it in obedience to Allah despite the written word - and then after much talking by the people - the confirmation by Allah proved his judgement to be correct (ch 59).



What remains is for people to take in information and process it well whilst seeking to do what is best in Allah's sight whilst hoping for His mercy and fearing His wrath - simply playing with words will not guard against Allah's wrath if an action displeases Him due to being unjust - nor will foolishly adhering to a written ruling without wisdom despite the legality of an act in Allah's sight.


The Torah stoning rulings and the birth of Jesus should have proven that.


The statements and rulings of the Prophet some of which add to Quranic rulings - and some of which appear to contradict but actually do not contradict Allah - are made as a mercy and not ultimately for confusion - and that is not the end of wisdom.

The multiple "U-turns" and added rulings found in the revealed books and actions of the Prophets are also a mercy and a consolation to leaders who would otherwise be reluctant to change their rulings out of fear of being accused of folly.
And a means of making us realize that each circumstance and level of knowledge is different - and that we should always be prepared to obey Allah inspite of our possible past misunderstandings.


Your Lord said to the angels: “Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape. So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.” (Hicr 15:28-29)

Your Lord said to the angels: “Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust. So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obeisance to him.”(Sad 38:71-72)

(We said) To the angels: “Make obeisance to Adam”, All of them but Iblis did obeisance. He refused, he was proud, and he became one of the unbelievers.(Bakara 2:34)

And certainly We created you, then We gave you your shape, and then We said to the angels: “Make obeisance to Adam”. All except Iblis did obeisance; he was not of those who did obeisance. (Araf 7:11)

We had told the angels: “Prostrate to Adam” All of them except Iblis did prostrate. He said: “Shall I prostrate to him whom You have created of dust?” (Isra 17:61)

The Answer of Iblis

He said: “What hindered you so that you did not make obeisance when I commanded you?” He answered thus: “You have created me of fire, while You created him of dust. I am better than he.” (Araf 7:12)

Allah said: “O Iblis! What hindered you from being with those who make obeisance?
He said: “I am not such that I could make obeisance to a mortal whom You have created of black mud. (Hicr 15:32-33)

Allah said: “O Iblis! What prevented you from doing obeisance to him whom I have created with My power? Are you proud, or are you of the exalted ones?”
Iblis said: “I am better than he; You have created me of fire, while You created him of dust.
Allah said: “Then get out of there; for sure you are one of those who have been driven away. And surely My curse is on you to the day of judgment/religion.”(Sad 38:75-78)


A "U-turn"?

Or a question of obedience to Allah and acceptance of His wisdom above our own?

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

I already showed earlier that in the Quran idol is only haram for worship, not haram as art/esthetics (verse 34: 13) but the hadith say its haram even to just posses it. This is clear contradiction & the Muslims/scholar choose hadith over the Quran. This was my point.

An Idol is what one worships or uses to worship - an aesthetic art form is not an Idol. Idol worship is categorically wrong and shirk in Islam. We know this through the Quran and mass transmitted reports (Tawattur).

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

Again, death penalty for leaving in Islam is only in hadith not Quran. The only punishment in the Quran is by Allah (in the afterlife). As for the reasoning that leaving ones religion is a treason to justify the killing, are you willing to apply the same logic, thus the pagan Arabs/Quraysh have all the right to kill the prophet then?

Nope death penalty is the same as treason in a pre modern context. The prophet didn't have any political power when the pagans persecuted his followers, starved them, killed them and tried to kill the prophet. They also made them leave there home. It was only when the prophet went to Medina that the prophet pbuh fought back from extinction - After the conquest of mecca the prophet forgive his persecutors and they accepted Islam and gave Bayah to the prophet. From there onwards they have an obligation to obey the prophet - Just like you do to your country.

format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

Every word in the Quran is supposedly of Allah, so there is no such thing as some words are less important than others.The point is ,I brought this up is to provide more evidence that Muslims/scholars abrogate the Quran by using material from the hadith. It very clear, the Quran allows mu'tah & the hadiths forbid and you accept the later.

Nope the Quran does not get abrogated by hadiths but by other Quranic ayats. Ramadan, drinking alcohol are other examples. Muta was one of the marriages that the pre pagan Arabs used to with other marriages - many of these were abrogated later.

You also seem to think that the Quran and hadiths are separate things - the Quran orders Muslims to follow the prophet and the hadith science is the method scholars use to figure what the prophet said.

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format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

There are even more examples, for instance in the Quran homosexuality offense is repent-able & there is no capital punishment where else the hadiths says kill them. The scholars pen a long narration to justify choosing the hadith over the Quran and this becomes Shariah. How come?

where does the Quran talk about homosexuality expect the story of Lot? Here is a task for you tell me what muta is using the Quran only? Lets see how far you get without any historical context like hadith, sira, arabic grammer, Usul ul fiqh, logic, the people that witnessed revelation like sahaba (companions) and there students etc? Just the Quran.

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format_quote Originally Posted by yandex

Doesn't all good things belong to God? I quote Sikhism just as an example, not to have Islam vs Sikhism debate. Anyway does Granth Sahib claims ownership of wisdom & calls everyone to convert to it? I don't think so. It has its purpose in North India & especially during the times of their Gurus. (just the way I think of the Quran too in the context of Arabia)

if Sikhism doesn't want anyone to convert to it then why should one even talk about it and take it seriously? if it doesn't have the existential answers to life then why should one bother with it? as I said before it lacks urgency. Unlike Christianity and Islam which are universal religions make urgent claims.

Do all Good things belong? well contradictory things dont.

format_quote Originally Posted by umie

These are not my own words. I do not understand Arabic, but a quick search on the internet reveals the true meanings of the verse.

here's the source I got this from:
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafhe...verse=12&to=13

Surah Saba 34:12-13 - Towards Understanding the Quran - Quran Translation Commentary - Tafheem ul Quran ...

Jazakallah Ukthi, I have gone through this tafsir many many times but do not know how i missed the PROFOUND explanation of this word 'tamatheel'. Anyhow later better than never. Jazakallah khair Ukthi.