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    About Sikhism through islam (OP)


    Quran clearly says that project Muhammad is the last messenger for the whole of humanity , then how come any religion after Islam eg.SIKHISM can come.

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

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    @umie

    The word tamatheel in the text is the plural of timthal, which in Arabic is used for every such thing as is made to resemble a natural thing, whether it is a human being, an animal, a tree, a flower, a river, or some inanimate object. .. Timthal is every such picture which may have been made to resemble the likeness of something else, whether living or dead.” (The commentary, Al-Kashshaf). On this basis the statement of the Quran does not necessarily imply that the images made for the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) were the pictures or images of human beings and animals. They might have been floral designs or natural landscape or different kinds of decorations with which the Prophet Solomon might have decorated his buildings and works.....In the face of these clear and express injunctions how can it be accepted that the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) might have employed the jinns to make pictures and images of the Prophets and the angels for him? ....
    The word used in most of the translations is statue. In British English it is normally used for a replica of a person/being & animal. That's the norm.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statue

    Ok, so the Muslim translators choose the English word statue even though in Arabic, the word tamatheel could also mean replica of other things eg. plant, flower, tree etc. Perhaps that's what they thought it meant. Otherwise, if you think the translators were wrong, then I have nothing to say about it.

    As for quoting the Bible to support the Quran, I find it strange because one either uses his own religious source or a universally accepted document like a historic text etc and not a book which you believe is corrupt. Never mind.

    Btw, I want to know why a bust/picture of a person or animal is haram/shirk but not that of a plant/tree/flower?

    @Abz2000

    The statements and rulings of the Prophet some of which add to Quranic rulings - and some of which appear to contradict but actually do not contradict Allah - are made as a mercy and not ultimately for confusion - and that is not the end of wisdom.

    The multiple "U-turns" and added rulings found in the revealed books and actions of the Prophets are also as a mercy and a consolation to leaders who would be otherwise reluctant to change their rulings out of fear of being accused of folly.
    So, all contradictions/U turns are simply just appearing to be one and even if there is really any, it is merely a mercy from God of your religion? Thanks, now anyone pick this up & make such excuse to cover all problems in their respective religion or even cult.

    Btw, what's Iblis story got to do with U-turns? Also, if Iblis got kicked out of heaven after disobeying Allah, where did he go in exile? Please elaborate.
    @Zafran

    Nope death penalty is the same as treason in a pre modern context. ..
    You didn't get my point. I'm saying that if apostacy is a treason to your co-religionist punishable by death, then pagan Arabs too have every right to execute the prophet for leaving his Quraysh religion & be a threat to their community.

    Muta was one of the marriages that the pre pagan Arabs used to with other marriages - many of these were abrogated later.
    There is no Quranic verse that abrogates the Mut'ah marriage, only hadiths, that's my point.

    where does the Quran talk about homosexuality expect the story of Lot? Here is a task for you tell me what muta is using the Quran only? Lets see how far you get without any historical context like hadith, sira, arabic grammer, Usul ul fiqh, logic, the people that witnessed revelation like sahaba (companions) and there students etc? Just the Quran.
    No where in the Quran it says death to homosexuals as the hadiths do. Thats enough.

    if Sikhism doesn't want anyone to convert to it then why should one even talk about it and take it seriously? if it doesn't have the existential answers to life then why should one bother with it? as I said before it lacks urgency. Unlike Christianity and Islam which are universal religions make urgent claims.
    Do all Good things belong? well contradictory things dont.
    Not every religion is into aggresive proselytising and number game and that doesn't have any correlation with a belief system being closer to the truth etc. Like the Quran says, to me my religion and to you, yours etc. I showed a few examples in the earlier posts why I think the Quran was more for the Arabs in those times and not for all mankind at all times. As for urgency, what you mean by that? Can't wait to enter the Jannah or something? Maybe except for the 7th century Beduins, I don't think lying on the sofa eating chicken & drinking ginger ale is what humans are looking forward in afterlife (if any). That description is more apt for a normal Sunday afternoon here on earth now

    Thanks.

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    @umie
    The word used in most of the translations is statue. In British English it is normally used for a replica of a person/being & animal. That's the norm.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statue

    Ok, so the Muslim translators choose the English word statue even though in Arabic, the word tamatheel could also mean replica of other things eg. plant, flower, tree etc. Perhaps that's what they thought it meant. Otherwise, if you think the translators were wrong, then I have nothing to say about it.

    As for quoting the Bible to support the Quran, I find it strange because one either uses his own religious source or a universally accepted document like a historic text etc and not a book which you believe is corrupt. Never mind.

    Btw, I want to know why a bust/picture of a person or animal is haram/shirk but not that of a plant/tree/flower?
    The shortcomings of the languages or the translators does not change the validity of the Quraan.

    the word Tamatheel is most of the time used as "statue" or "bust" but if you look a little bit detailed, then you find a more general meaning for it like anything that resembles a natural thing.
    I do not know why translators would have chosen the word "statue"...it may be because the lack of a better word. languages usually cannot be translated into each other 1 on 1 without losing any information.

    "statues" just does not cover the word "tamatheel" entirely...and that is where the problems start. Exactly that is the main reason that the Quran may not be translated in a different language...of course you can translate it...but then the translated version is just a book...and it certainly does not have the same status as the Quraan anymore.

    About quotations of the Bible and Thora. I wanted to point out that Jews and Christians also have this rule in their Holy Book. I could use sources out of the Quraan, but since the Jews and Christians do not acknowle the Quraan, it has no use.
    Besides, I have to use an older source than the Quraan to prove my point.
    I did not take the time to search out a universally accepted historical text but I have no doubt that the result is the same.
    Besides, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are basically the same religion...the big difference is that Christians and Jews do not accept Muhammad sas as the last prophet.
    The Bible is as corrupt as it can get, but the Thorah is still pretty pure...it just got totally destroyed at one point in time and then recovered as good as possible from memory of one person.

    nevertheless, the fact that it is stated multiple times in the Thorah that statue making is prohibited, is enough proof that Jews were aware of that rule long before Solomon as was born.

    Some say that rules can change over the years and things that were allowed in the past are haram now or vice versa. the example they give is Alcohol which was halal once, and later on became haraam.
    they then try to explain that statue making might have been halaal during Solomons time but became haraam later on.

    However, this does not make sense to me. because, why would something be haraam during Moses's as time on Earth...then it becomes halaal during Solomon's as periode and then becomes haraam once more?

  5. #63
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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    @yandex:

    You are a hadith rejecter....?

    Then You are a Quran rejecter as well....
    About Sikhism through islam

    Allah (swt) knows best

  6. #64
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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    You didn't get my point. I'm saying that if apostacy is a treason to your co-religionist punishable by death, then pagan Arabs too have every right to execute the prophet for leaving his Quraysh religion & be a threat to their community.
    Who gave them the right to persecute people especially when they desecrated the house of Abraham pbuh and Ishmael who were monotheist in first place. The prophet didnt Go against the Queresh he was telling them to practice the religion that God had told them to follow. The prophet was also a quraysh himself.. Furthermore as the Prophet was part of the Quraysh he was under the protection of Abu Talibs and they couldnt kill him anyway - so they were going against there own tribal rules.


    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    There is no Quranic verse that abrogates the Mut'ah marriage, only hadiths, that's my point.
    what is Muta in the Quran? How do you Know what it is from the Quran?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    No where in the Quran it says death to homosexuals as the hadiths do. Thats enough.
    Your the one that brought up Homosexuality so where does it talk about homosexuality in the Quran and what is the point of bringing it up?

    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    Not every religion is into aggresive proselytising and number game and that doesn't have any correlation with a belief system being closer to the truth etc
    Those religions have little to offer to outsiders - they are either tribal unlike universal religions like Islam and Christianity, which are everywhere and are growing at a faster rate then other religions for an obvious reasons (they are universal).


    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    Like the Quran says, to me my religion and to you, yours etc. I showed a few examples in the earlier posts why I think the Quran was more for the Arabs in those times and not for all mankind at all times.
    Verse 3:19
    Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah, then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account

    There are many verses like this but looking at the world and it has the largest population of Muslims in Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Persia, Turkey and Africa it safe to say it is a universal religion. Its also the fastest growing religion on the planet. So its for all places and times.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    As for urgency, what you mean by that? Can't wait to enter the Jannah or something? Maybe except for the 7th century Beduins, I don't think lying on the sofa eating chicken & drinking ginger ale is what humans are looking forward in afterlife (if any). That description is more apt for a normal Sunday afternoon here on earth now
    LOL there is no urgent reason to accept Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism or any other the Indian religions because they believe in reincarnation - which means you get unlimited tries at life after you die, There is no Urgency to accept these religions on this basis. If I'm coming back here anyway according to them regardless of what I follow.

    Looking at earth with its finite resources it does not seem to be place where people can keep coming back to unlimited times as well.

    Unlike lets say Islam and Christianity which threaten you with Judgment after death and only one shot at life. So you need to take life seriously and make a decision urgently on them.

    There are atheist who believe that nothing exists after life - so its pointless even look into atheist philosophies on the perennial question as they believe that life is just a short pessimistic,nihilistic and ultimately meaningless stay on earth. No point of life what so ever.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    @yandex:

    You are a hadith rejecter....?

    Then You are a Quran rejecter as well....
    He is not a Muslim.............
    Last edited by Zafran; 07-05-2018 at 12:30 AM.
    About Sikhism through islam

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    @ umie

    The shortcomings of the languages or the translators does not change the validity of the Quraan…..it may be because the lack of a better word. languages usually cannot be translated into each other 1 on 1 without losing any information…..Exactly that is the main reason that the Quran may not be translated in a different language...of course you can translate it...but then the translated version is just a book...and it certainly does not have the same status as the Quraan anymore.
    That’s why in my much earlier (post #23), I said it makes sense for God for millennia to continuously send message in different communities in their respective language precisely to ensure they understand it accurately (Quran 14 4). It doesn’t makes sense all this to suddenly stop at Arabia in 7th century and the entire world now have to learn Arabic !! Your response was that translations are sufficient for the rest (post#35), but here even the Muslims scholars according to you, can get it fundamentally wrong!! On the other hand, I also showed that even the Arabs could not understand the Quran except in their own dialect & Allah obliged later in 7 ahrufs.
    https://sunnah.com/muslim/6/334

    On the side note, the hadith of the 7 dialects is also strange and puts Allah in a precarious spot. How come the prophet has to remind Allah that his people only understand their own dialect and sending down only one of them is not enough? Isn’t Allah the All- Knowing and should have done it in the first place?

    The Bible is as corrupt as it can get, but the Torah is still pretty pure...it just got totally destroyed at one point in time and then recovered as good as possible from memory of one person.
    That’s not true. The Quran claims the Torah is corrupted too (Quran 4 46), so it’s very bizarre to use the corrupted Torah to support the Quran.

    @ azc

    You are a hadith rejecter....?
    Then You are a Quran rejecter as well....
    There are many hadiths, even sahih ones that puts the prophet and Allah in a very precarious spot. I can show it to you. It is my opinion that Muslims can do better without some of it. That’s all.

    @ Zafran

    Who gave them the right to persecute people especially when they desecrated the house of Abraham pbuh and Ishmael who were monotheist in first place. The prophet didnt Go against the Queresh he was telling them to practice the religion that God had told them to follow….
    That the Kaabah was built by Ishmael, or that Muhammad was a prophet, all these are not historical facts accepted by the Pre-Islamic Arabs and the rest of the world. These are claims & believes of the early Muslims but the pagans believe otherwise. So it’s one believe vs another believe, not fact vs fiction as you try to put it. If you believe the prophet can execute any Quraysh who leaves Islam then the pagans also had equal right to execute any Quraysh who leaves their native religion. Otherwise it’s double standard.

    what is Muta in the Quran? How do you Know what it is from the Quran?
    Your the one that brought up Homosexuality so where does it talk about homosexuality in the Quran and what is the point of bringing it up?
    Mut’a is in verse 4 24, please read the translations & tafsirs. Some Shi’a Muslims still practise it because they don’t accept the Sunni hadiths that prohibit it. The strange part is even some Sunnis circumvent that and practise Mut’a with a different name i.e Misyar marriage. As for homosexuality, verse 4:16 has interpretations that it includes homosexual couple. My opinion is, if any offence that takes a precious life away as punishment surely must be sanctioned by Allah as He is the life giver and not anyone else. Thus if the Quran do not clearly sanctioned it, no hadiths should override as Quran is supposedly the supreme. That’s all.

    There are many verses like this but looking at the world and it has the largest population of Muslims in Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Persia, Turkey and Africa it safe to say it is a universal religion. Its also the fastest growing religion on the planet. So its for all places and times…… …Those (other) religions have little to offer to outsiders - they are either tribal unlike universal religions like Islam and Christianity, which are everywhere and are growing at a faster rate then other religions for an obvious reasons (they are universal)…… Unlike let’s say Islam and Christianity which threaten you with Judgment after death and only one shot at life. So you need to take life seriously and make a decision urgently on them.
    Currently Islam is growing fast because of population growth & Christianity is growing fast because of conversion of the hungry/poor with sandwiches. Does this prove the universality of both that religions? I think universality has other meanings & it’s not just a number game.
    Just to share, I had a Muslim relative who devoted all his life for his faith, was physically/financially healthy but died without fulfilling his basic pillar/obligation of Islam simply because he never struck the Hajj lottery while waiting all his life. This is the case for millions others around the world. If fulfilling your fundamentals of your faith depends on lucky draw, it’s far from anything universal. On the other hand, the Quran said it was sent for the Meccans & surrounding area (Quran 6 92), and in that case, no one would need a lottery. This only shows Islam was never meant to have this many followers outside of Arabia.

    Thanks

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    @yandex:

    Islam is the ONLY universal religion and Muhammad (s.a.w), sent to all mankind, is the last messenger.

    “Say (0 Muhammad): O mankind, Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all (the messenger of) Him unto whom belongs the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no God save Him. He qives life and He gives death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believes in Allah and in His words and follow him that haply, you may be led aright” (al-A‘raf: 158)

    “Blessed is He who has revealed to His slave the Criterion (of right and wrong), that he may be a warner to all of the peoples” (al-Furqan: 1)

    “And We have not sent you (O Muhammad) save as a bringer of good tidings and a warner to all mankind; but most of mankind knows not” (Saba’: 28)

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    Abz2000's Avatar
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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    Found this after 'Asr and couldn't add it on edit so here yas go:

    Allah's method of protecting - from the plots of the corrupt and from failiure -those who seek, learn, and use wisdom with the book and other lawful knowledge:

    وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَهَمَّت طَّائِفَةٌ مِّنْهُمْ أَن يُضِلُّوكَ وَمَا يُضِلُّونَ إِلَّا أَنفُسَهُمْ وَمَا يَضُرُّونَكَ مِن شَيْءٍ
    وَأَنزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ
    الْكِتَابَ
    وَالْحِكْمَةَ
    وَعَلَّمَكَ مَا لَمْ تَكُن تَعْلَمُ
    وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظِيمًا

    M. M. Pickthall
    But for the grace of Allah upon thee (Muhammad), and His mercy, a party of them had resolved to mislead thee, but they will mislead only themselves and they will hurt thee not at all.
    Allah revealeth unto thee
    the Scripture
    and wisdom,
    and teacheth thee that which thou knewest not.
    The grace of Allah toward thee hath been infinite.


    Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
    But for the Grace of Allah to thee and his Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only Lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least.
    For Allah hath sent down to thee
    the Book
    and wisdom
    and taught thee what thou Knewest not (before):
    And great is the Grace of Allah unto thee.


    Quran 4:113
    Last edited by Abz2000; 07-06-2018 at 12:56 PM.
    About Sikhism through islam













  11. #68
    Zafran's Avatar
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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    That the Kaabah was built by Ishmael, or that Muhammad was a prophet, all these are not historical facts accepted by the Pre-Islamic Arabs and the rest of the world. These are claims & believes of the early Muslims but the pagans believe otherwise. So it’s one believe vs another believe, not fact vs fiction as you try to put it.
    Where is the historical proof for this claim? Its well known that the arabs or descendants of Ishmeal and Abhram pbuh and the children of Israel through Issac pbuh. Both Muslims and non Muslims agree with that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    If you believe the prophet can execute any Quraysh
    No nobody believes that.......

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    Currently Islam is growing fast because of population growth & Christianity is growing fast because of conversion of the hungry/poor with sandwiches. Does this prove the universality of both that religions?
    Islam is growing because people are still having families and children which are the building blocks of any serious Human flourishing. Christianity is growing in china and sub Sahara Africa for the same reasons. As I said these are much more relevant and universal (they are all over the world in nearly every culture) then the other eastern religions. Furthermore India had problems of female infanticide which is way India has a big issues with males and female ratios.


    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    I had a Muslim relative who devoted all his life for his faith, was physically/financially healthy but died without fulfilling his basic pillar/obligation of Islam simply because he never struck the Hajj lottery while waiting all his life. This is the case for millions others around the world. If fulfilling your fundamentals of your faith depends on lucky draw, it’s far from anything universal.
    That is because of India's population - nevertheless he had the right intentions and may God give him the highest station in Jannah - you do Know that if you cant do an obligation like fast or Hajj because of a genuine reason (eg restriction of how many can go on Hajj because over the crazy population in India) then God is merciful and Gracious.

    Islam is universal because from the Turks, Malaysians, Indonesians, Arabs, Persians, Africans and Indians it gives a existential purpose and brotherhood in Faith, A Moral anchor and eschatology. Its nearly in every culture and place - By 2050 India will have the most largest Muslim population by country as well! Truly universal only Christianity is as universal.
    Last edited by Zafran; 07-07-2018 at 01:02 AM.
    About Sikhism through islam

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    azc's Avatar
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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    @yandex:

    the Quran said it was sent for the Meccans & surrounding area (Quran 6 92)
    No, you are wrong.

    I think universality has other meanings & it’s not just a number game.
    what are 'other meanings'?

    As for homosexuality, verse 4:16 has interpretations that it includes homosexual couple
    Do you want that it should be permitted...?

    The strange part is even some Sunnis circumvent that and practise Mut’a with a different name i.e Misyar marriage.
    No, Both are different.
    Mut’a is in verse 4 24
    , No, it's not proven

    There are many hadiths, even sahih ones that puts the prophet and Allah in a very precarious spot. I can show it to you.
    o.k. Show it

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    @Zafran

    Where is the historical proof for this claim? Its well known that the arabs or descendants of Ishmeal and Abhram pbuh and the children of Israel through Issac pbuh. Both Muslims and non Muslims agree with that.
    How can Ishmael be the father of all the Arabs when his father was an Aramaic, mother was an Egyptian and as a child, learned Arabic from an already existing Arab tribe (Jurhum) in Mecca?
    https://sunnah.com/bukhari/60/43

    @ azc

    (yandex said )the Quran said it was sent for the Meccans & surrounding area (Quran 6 92)
    (azc said) No, you are wrong.
    I did show some instances where the Quranic verses were more relevant to the Meccans at that time rather than the whole world/ for all times. Quran 4 34 is another example. This verse may have served its purpose for the Bedouins of that time but how is it relevant now? This verse means what it means, you can beat/ scourge your wife. That’s what all Muslim translators & tafsirs confirm. Please also note that beating here is not like tickling with a toothpick as some would like to suggest. The hadith below make things clear. Here the prophet seems just oblivious to Aisha’s laments and was addressing the nikah halala issue instead.

    Narrated `Ikrima:
    Rifa`a divorced his wife whereupon `AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. `Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came, `Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" ……
    https://sunnah.com/bukhari/77/42

    (yandex said)There are many hadiths, even sahih ones that puts the prophet and Allah in a very precarious spot. I can show it to you.
    (azc said) o.k. Show it
    As an example, tell me why it makes sense to you & nothing amiss here to accept such a hadith (supposedly sahih)? The linked hadith narrates that women are majority in Hell because they are deficient in intelligence & deficient in religion. The deficiency in religion is limitations caused by them having menses!!!
    https://sunnah.com/bukhari/6/9

    @ umie

    Btw, as I asked in a much earlier post, why a bust/picture of a person or animal is haram/shirk but not that of a plant/tree/flower? If you are not sure, perhaps other members can explain instead.

    @ Abz2000

    Can you please teach me the story of the Iblis that you quoted some time back ? I mean what happened to Iblis after Allah kicked him out of heaven for not bowing to Adam? Where was he exiled, earth or another dimension? If you are busy, perhaps other members can explain instead.

    Thanks

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post


    @Abz2000



    So, all contradictions/U turns are simply just appearing to be one and even if there is really any, it is merely a mercy from God of your religion? Thanks, now anyone pick this up & make such excuse to cover all problems in their respective religion or even cult.

    Btw, what's Iblis story got to do with U-turns? Also, if Iblis got kicked out of heaven after disobeying Allah, where did he go in exile? Please elaborate.

    Allah knows the details of the past, the present, and the future - so it is perfectly logical to come to the conclusion that any change in instruction that He made or makes is done purposefully so.
    I shall not delve too far into the secrets of destiny - since there is a limit to how much a human being can encompass of it's knowledge and i do not know more than what Allah makes known - so please do not prod or tempt - what is certain is that Allah knows - and you know this for a fact too - unless you want to prove yourself to be a liar simply seeking contention and not a sincere individual seeking correct understanding.
    Simple logic.



    Regarding iblees - the fact that Allah commanded obeisance to a being of clay into which He had breathed of His Spirit - although making it different to a lifeless piece of stone, wood, clay, glass, (etc), it is still possible to derive from it that there is a requirement to acknowledge the limit to the knowledge and wisdom of all creatures in relation to the Creator of the heavens and the earth - and that it is folly to attempt to argue against His wisdom in opposition to Him, and that His command to not bow to idols, lifeless flags, and defrauding tyrant leaders in opposition to Allah - is a part of the logical process of getting the dupes of iblees to question and probe their own minds when they realise that he -out of revenge- coaxes and steers them to bowing to idols every time he turns any set of people away from sound minded monotheism - and the idols that were later found installed at al ka'bah which was erected in devotion to the One God by the prophet who achieved reknown in youth for his breaking of national idols - - by his descendents who respected him, boasted of lineage to him, and were still following many of his rites - until the coming of the final Prophet (whose predecessor was to follow him later ) - - are a testament to this fact.
    When iblees said: "fa bi - 'izzatika" i.e by use of Your Power and Authority - he is basically stating that he will make wrong fairseeming to his dupes by using pretended assimilation and made to appear in-line tactics - with dark presented as reflectng light just as is done by practitioners of black magic witchcraft and satanic masons who use methods derived from what was revealed at babel to harut and marut - just as they did during Sulaiman 's dominion.



    Where was iblees exiled from?
    From the court of God.

    Where to?
    To the places where he could unwittingly in service to God - test the intelligence and stupidity of people - and lead his followers to falsehood, greed, and crime, and to hell, whilst helping in the work of sifting, separating, distinction, and elevation of those who would excel in all that is fair and just.

    Anton lavey (founder of the church of satan) explains how anything that is Godless, including atheism and idol worship - is simply a part or extension of satanism.


    The one major thing that bothers me logically (possibly like iblees in that regard) is the fact that God knew the future when He created Adam, and that He still allowed him to fall and then begin life on earth, and us descendents to be created in extension, to kill and eat other biological organisms in order to survive, and He knew which of us would go to paradise and which to hell.
    But then, i am forced to resign to and accept the unchangeable reality of our situation - and only achieve resolve from the fact that God's guidance in this unfathomable maze is the only workable and just method of getting through it - this is helped by the observation that those who remove themselves from God, and fall into the lap of iblees, are the most false, hateful, greedy, unsympathetic, savage, and unjust of us - so i really submit to God because i have no other choice considering the fact that i am in a tempestuous ocean - and obedience to God gets me on land, whereas rejection via denial of the truth, and disobedience to Him puts me with the falsehood mongering criminals and gets me to the pit.
    I know that death is inevitable - so I'm a house nigga in respect of the bigger picture since these seventy or so years in servitude is what it takes to fall to the bottom of the pit if i go rogue and fail -whereas if i sell out to Allah and win grace, i get to be with the good guys and girls, and then get a bumper retirement package.






    66. He said, “Nay, throw ye first!” Then behold their ropes and their rods-so it seemed to him on account of their magic – began to be in lively motion!
    67. So Moses conceived in his mind a (sort of) fear.
    68. We said: “Fear not! for thou hast indeed the upper hand:
    69. “Throw that which is in thy right hand: Quickly will it swallow up that which they have faked what they have faked is but a magician’s trick: and the magician thrives not, (no matter) where he goes.”
    70. So the magicians were thrown down to prostration: they said, “We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses”.
    71. (Pharaoh) said: “Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this must be your leader, who has taught you magic! be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees: so shall ye know for certain, which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting punishment!”
    72. They said: “Never shall we regard thee as more than the Clear Signs that have come to us, or than Him Who created us! so decree whatever thou desirest to decree: for thou canst only decree (touching) the life of this world.
    73. “For us, we have believed in our Lord: may He forgive us our faults, and the magic to which thou didst compel us: for Allah is Best and Most Abiding.”
    74. Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgment),- for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live.
    75. But such as come to Him as Believers who have worked righteous deeds,- for them are ranks exalted,-
    76. Gardens of Eternity, beneath which flow rivers: they will dwell therein for aye: such is the reward of those who purify themselves (from evil).

    From Quran, Chapter 20




    13You who are far away, hear what I have done;
    you who are near, acknowledge my power!
    14The sinners in Zion are terrified;
    trembling grips the godless:
    “Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
    Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?”
    15Those who walk righteously
    and speak what is right,
    who reject gain from extortion
    and keep their hands from accepting bribes,
    who stop their ears against plots of murder
    and shut their eyes against contemplating evil—
    16they are the ones who will dwell on the heights,
    whose refuge will be the mountain fortress.
    Their bread will be supplied,
    and water will not fail them.

    From Isaiah 33




    Acceptance of the false reality of the oppressive Rothschild matrix and indulgence in it is a bad trade when one considers the truth and ponders on eternity - especially considering that yesterday is only an electronic pattern saved in our brains - and that - only if we can remember it correctly.






    ----



    36. Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge.
    37. And a Sign for them is the Night: We withdraw therefrom the Day, and behold they are plunged in darkness;
    38. And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
    39. And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.
    40. It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
    41. And a Sign for them is that We bore their race (through the Flood) in the loaded Ark;
    42. And We have created for them similar (vessels) on which they ride.
    43. If it were Our Will, We could drown them: then would there be no helper (to hear their cry), nor could they be delivered,
    44. Except by way of Mercy from Us, and by way of (world) convenience (to serve them) for a time.
    45. When they are told, “Fear ye that which is before you and that which will be after you, in order that ye may receive Mercy,” (they turn back).
    46. Not a Sign comes to them from among the Signs of their Lord, but they turn away therefrom.
    47. And when they are told, “Spend ye of (the bounties) with which Allah has provided you,” the Unbelievers say to those who believe: “Shall we then feed those whom, if Allah had so willed, He would have fed, (Himself)?- Ye are in nothing but manifest error.”
    48. Further, they say, “When will this promise (come to pass), if what ye say is true?”
    49. They will not (have to) wait for aught but a single Horn Blast: it will seize them while they are yet disputing among themselves!
    50. No (chance) will they then have, by will, to dispose (of their affairs), nor to return to their own people!
    51. The trumpet shall be sounded, when behold! They, from the graves will rush forth to their Lord!
    52. They will say: “Ah! Woe unto us! Who hath raised us up from our beds of repose?”… (A voice will say: ) “This is what ((Allah)) Most Gracious had promised. And true was the word of the Messengers!”

    53. It will be no more than a single scream/shout/blast on the horn, when lo! they will all be brought up before Us!
    54. Then, on that Day, not a soul will be wronged in the least, and ye shall but be repaid the meeds of your past Deeds.
    55. Verily the Companions of the Garden shall that Day have joy in all that they do;
    56. They and their associates will be in groves of (cool) shade, reclining on Thrones (of dignity);
    57. (Every) fruit (enjoyment) will be there for them; they shall have whatever they call for;
    58. “Peace!” – a word (of salutation) from a Lord Most Merciful!
    59. “And O ye in sin! Get ye apart this Day!
    60. “Did I not enjoin on you, O ye Children of Adam, that ye should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an enemy avowed?-
    61. “And that ye should worship Me, (for that) this was the Straight Way?
    62. “But he did lead astray a great multitude of you. Did ye not, then, understand?
    63. “This is the Hell of which ye were (repeatedly) warned!
    64. “Embrace ye the (fire) this Day, for that ye (persistently) rejected (Truth).”
    65. That Day shall We set a seal on their mouths. But their hands will speak to us, and their feet bear witness, to all that they did.
    66. If it had been our Will, We could surely have blotted out their eyes; then should they have run about groping for the Path, but how could they have seen?
    67. And if it had been Our Will, We could have transformed them (to remain) in their places; then should they have been unable to move about, nor could they have returned (after error).
    68. If We grant long life to any, We cause him to be reversed in nature: Will they not then understand?
    69. We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur’an making things clear:
    70. That it may give admonition to any (who are) alive, and that the charge may be proved against those who reject (Truth).
    71. See they not that it is We Who have created for them – among the things which Our hands have fashioned – cattle, which are under their dominion?-
    72. And that We have subjected them to their (use)? of them some do carry them and some they eat:
    73. And they have (other) profits from them (besides), and they get (milk) to drink. Will they not then be grateful?
    74. Yet they take (for worship) gods other than Allah, (hoping) that they might be helped!
    75. They have not the power to help them: but they are for them a troop present/prepared.
    76. Let not their speech, then, grieve thee. Verily We know what they hide as well as what they disclose.
    77. Doth not man see that it is We Who created him from sperm? yet behold! he (stands forth) as an open adversary!
    78. And he makes comparisons for Us, and forgets his own (origin and) Creation: He says, “Who can give life to (dry) bones and decomposed ones (at that)?”
    79. Say, “He will give them life Who created them for the first time! for He is Well-versed in every kind of creation!-

    80. “The same Who produces for you fire out of the green tree, when behold! ye kindle therewith (your own fires)!
    81. “Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth able to create the like thereof?” – Yea, indeed! for He is the Creator Supreme, of skill and knowledge (infinite)!
    82. Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, “be”, and it is!
    83. So glory to Him in Whose hands is the dominion of all things: and to Him will ye be all brought back.


    From Quran, Chapter 36
    Last edited by Abz2000; 07-09-2018 at 09:22 PM.
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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    The one major thing that bothers me logically (possibly like iblees in that regard) is the fact that God knew the future when He created Adam, and that He still allowed him to fall and then begin life on earth, and us descendents to be created in extension, to kill and eat other biological organisms in order to survive, and He knew which of us would go to paradise and which to hell.
    But then, i am forced to resign to and accept the unchangeable reality of our situation - and only achieve resolve from the fact that God's guidance in this unfathomable maze is the only workable and just method of getting through it - this is helped by the observation that those who remove themselves from God, and fall into the lap of iblees, are the most false, hateful, greedy, unsympathetic, savage, and unjust of us - so i really submit to God because i have no other choice considering the fact that i am in a tempestuous ocean - and obedience to God gets me on land, whereas rejection via denial of the truth, and disobedience to Him puts me with the falsehood mongering criminals and gets me to the pit.
    I know that death is inevitable - so I'm a house nigga in respect of the bigger picture since these seventy or so years in servitude is what it takes to fall to the bottom of the pit if i go rogue and fail whereas if i sell out to Allah and win grace, i get to be with the good guys and girls, and then get a bumper retirement package.
    Hello Abz2000,

    You are using way too complicated English. I cannot always follow you unfortunately.
    For as good as I could understand you are struggling with the logical part why we are getting to live on this Earth, although Allah already knows which one will go to Heaven and which one will go to hell....am I correct?

    Let me try to help you with that part.

    Adam as did not fall...he did not make a sin. he was destined to be send to Earth. being send to Earth was NOT his punishment. He would be sent to Earth anyway whether he had eaten from that apple or not.
    Second,
    you have to realize why Allah created us.
    Allah is perfectly capable of creating strong, powerfull and fast creatures like angels...yet he chose to create weak, slow, lazy creatures like us...and what exactly gives us a higher rank then the angels?
    important here is that Allah did not create anything out of need...so whether powerfull and fast, or weak and slow does not make any difference for Allah.
    the thing that distuinguishes us from the angels is our free will.
    Angels are programmed to obey...to disobey is not an option...angels cannot do that. Humans however can disobey....but despite of that we CHOOSE to believe in Allah...We CHOOSE to worship Allah...we could choose not to...but we choose out of free will to do so...this gives us our higher rank than the angels.

    so, true free will is inportant here...in order to have a free will...we must have a real choice....without the bad, we cannot choose for the good...there must be a choice to make in order to have free will.
    that is why some of us will make the wrong choice and get thrown in hell. that is the price for having a free will.

    and then...of course he already knows which one of us will make the right choice and which of us will make the wrong choice...he does not need a test for this...but then again, this test is not for him...this test has a complete different purpose. this test is meant only for us...to make us witnesses from our own deeds and choices...so that we can understand it the reason we are placed in heaven or hell.

    how would you react if God just picked you up and threw you into Hell....wouldn't you ask "why God? what did I do to deserve this?" then God would answer something like "I know you better than you know wourself"...but still that answer would not satisfy you...you would not understand....but by coming to the Earth first and being part of your own deeds...you would very much understand the reason.

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    @yandex:

    I did show some instances where the Quranic verses were more relevant to the Meccans at that time rather than the whole world/ for all times.
    and you have been proven wrong.

    See another verse:

    Ar-Rum (The Romans) - 30:22

    And among his wonders is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the diversity of your tongues and colours: for in this, behold, there are messages indeed for all who are possessed of [innate] knowledge!
    msg of Islam is for all regardless of their language or colour.

    lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating)
    The Prophet (pbuh) expressed astonishment at the cruelty of certain men when he said: "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening ?"(Bukhari and Muslim)

    http://www.answering-christianity.co...quran_4_34.htm

    hadith narrates that women are majority in Hell because they are deficient in intelligence & deficient in religion.
    Why do you quote hadith when you don't understand it. ?

    "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Messenger ‏s.a.w‏ ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands.

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    @umie i didn't have a clue it was complicated English - probably more to do with my haphazard use of dashes and commas in an attempt to separate topics, will keep that in mind though :jzk: for your positive feedback - though please bear in mind that i use a phone lying down or leaning on pillows and that makes it impossible to get a full screen preview of my posts.

    you know that still doesn't answer the question as to why He makes us go through it all - other than the fact that He's Boss and does what He wills, but since i have a feeling i wont have that answer unless and until He makes it known on earth - or until i am raised again after death, i'm resigned to wait in patience - and anyways, i'd much rather be a slave to God than to an infidel or hypocrite or even a believer so i'm quite cozy considering the alternatives.
    Questioning it too much feels like overstepping my rank and i know that He knows best so that's sufficient for me - especially after having watched the Yusuf series and seeing an acted out version of how he had to accept slavery to the aziz and get tempted by his lascivious wife (and he had it easy in conparison to others) - i can assure you that slavery to God -who is the obvious truth- is more honourable and easy to deal with - especially given the freedom from servitude to other humans, stability, sanity and the rewards.




    @azc he was most likely referring to a different hadith which generally makes sense to those who compare and research - but creates fitnah and defensiveness when mentioned to the less aware who are loaded on mass secularist media run by the usurers. But again, the above topic about iblees' refusal to accept his God given designation and bow may help to make it easier to accept - we're all in it together lol but i sure as heaven and hell would die fighting that crooked degenerate trump than i would fighting God or even contemplating the latter. British and American soldiers standing on judgement day as honourable martyrs for rothschild, battenberg, and trump makes for good comedy rather than anything worth seriously contemplating.


    Edit: it was actually a part of the same Bukhari hadith - although it appears that you neglected to mention the next part despite it immediately following your text - and even though it is steering very far from the topic or anything even general to comparative religion or fundamental Islamic discussion - almost as if you were waiting for someone to contradict you and steer the posts into an off topic debate about women's rights (a well observed and over-used tactic for scoring points with the ignorant) along with your apparent colleague/friend/partner yandex who also appears to be doing the same - please wisen up since it's getting obvious.

    Here is the complete hadith anyway for references sake (though i believe in this case it applies to you and yandex more than it applies to women) :

    https://sunnah.com/bukhari/6/9

    Please open a thread on it and copy paste if you want to debate issues on women's rights - i only say this because it comes across as disrespectfully belligerent when such attempted point scoring takes place - seeing as the people posting such diversions care little in reality about women's rights and care more about causing confusion and defensiveness when they feel insecure in that they cannot address the topic intellectually and therefore attempt to mirror their insecurity onto others who actually feel quite calm addressing such topics. We all veer on and off topic sometimes - but when it becomes obvious trolling (like: "but what's your view on Aston FC then?" during a discussion on ceiling fans in Birmingham City Center - and then the person "choosing" to be advocate says something half baked or lame such as "but Aston Villa only scored 2 goals in a match 65 seasons ago") - it becomes questionable to say the least.





    ---


    14. When he reached full age, and was firmly established (in life), We bestowed on him wisdom and knowledge: for thus do We reward those who do good.
    15. And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching: and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: “This is a work of Evil (Satan): for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!”
    16. He prayed: “O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!” So ((Allah)) forgave him: for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
    17. He said: “O my Lord! For that You have bestowed Your Grace on me, never shall I be a help to the criminals!”
    18. So he saw the morning in the city, looking about, in a state of fear, when behold, the man who had, the day before, sought his help called aloud for his help (again). Moses said to him: “You are truly, it is clear,a plain misleader!”
    19. Then, when he decided to lay hold of the man who was an enemy to both of them, that man said: “O Moses! Is it your intention to slay me as you slew a man yesterday? Your intention is none other than to become a powerful violent man in the land, and not to be one who sets things right!”

    From Quran, Chapter 28


    @yandex, please do ask questions for which you actually seek answers but please avoid purposefully playing cat and mouse games simply for the sake of contention and strife.
    Also be aware that i am simply attempting to clarify rather than obscure via confusion.

    I look forward to answering your questions about the green shawl and others on a relevant thread.
    Last edited by Abz2000; 07-10-2018 at 05:38 AM.
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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    How can Ishmael be the father of all the Arabs when his father was an Aramaic, mother was an Egyptian and as a child, learned Arabic from an already existing Arab tribe (Jurhum) in Mecca?
    The link proves my point.........actually do some research next time.
    About Sikhism through islam

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    @umie i didn't have a clue it was complicated English - probably more to do with my haphazard use of dashes and commas in an attempt to separate topics, will keep that in mind though :jzk: for your positive feedback - though please bear in mind that i use a phone lying down or leaning on pillows and that makes it impossible to get a full screen preview of my posts.

    you know that still doesn't answer the question as to why He makes us go through it all - other than the fact that He's Boss and does what He wills, but since i have a feeling i wont have that answer unless and until He makes it known on earth - or until i am raised again after death, i'm resigned to wait in patience - and anyways, i'd much rather be a slave to God than to an infidel or hypocrite or even a believer so i'm quite cozy considering the alternatives.
    Questioning it too much feels like overstepping my rank and i know that He knows best so that's sufficient for me - especially after having watched the Yusuf series and seeing an acted out version of how he had to accept slavery to the aziz and get tempted by his lascivious wife (and he had it easy in conparison to others) - i can assure you that slavery to God -who is the obvious truth- is more honourable and easy to deal with - especially given the freedom from servitude to other humans, stability, sanity and the rewards.
    you must not think that way Abz2000. Of course He's Boss and does what he wishes...so you might not get the answer you are looking for...everything OK...and that you are cosy with it also fine...Untill this point I am just like you...Curious about something...but my faith is not dependent on the answer i might or might not find.

    but do not think that you are overstepping your rank if you question it too much...we humans are created this way, it is our nature to question things and look for answers...that's what we do. that's how we learn..and it can be only good...it is not out of doubt that you have this question it is out of curiousity...you just have a question and you wish an answer for it...whether you find an answer to it or not, does not change anything about yout faith and loyality to Allah. So, do not worry to overstep your rank.
    I also have watched this...all 49episodes...pretty interesting. I liked it very much. I wish there were similar series for all of our prophets...it is very educative.

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    @ azc

    The Prophet (pbuh) expressed astonishment at the cruelty of certain men when he said: "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening ?"(Bukhari and Muslim) http://www.answering-christianity.co...quran_4_34.htm
    Please read below the full hadith that you hinted partially above and another one related to it. The prophet did not forbid beating your wife but he is advising not to trash them as hard you would to a camel/slave. The concern on sleeping with her immediately is to remind not to do it unless you have done the Witr prayer. As I showed you in the earlier hadith, it is Aisha who lamented that "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" This summarizes the fate of the Muslims women. If you don’t agree Aisha, then I have nothing to comment further.

    Narrated `Abdullah bin Zam`a:
    The Prophet (ﷺ) forbade laughing at a person who passes wind, and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?" And Hisham said, "As he beats his slave"
    Sahih al-Bukhari 6042 Book of Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab)

    It was narrated that Ash'ath bin Qais said:
    "I was a guest (at the home) of 'Umar one night, and in the middle of the night he went and hit his wife, and I separated them. When he went to bed he said to me: 'O Ash'ath, learn from me something that I heard from the Messenger of Allah" A man should not be asked why he beats his wife, and do not go to sleep until you have prayed the Witr."' And I forgot the third thing."
    English reference : Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1986 Sunan Ibn Majah » The Chapters on Marriage


    Why do you quote hadith when you don't understand it. ?
    "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Messenger ‏s.a.w‏ ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands.
    The reply of the prophet is in between the quote-unquote. Here is the full text https://sunnah.com/bukhari/6/9. You just stopped at the prophet’s first sentence of his reply. I’m not sure why. Even for the first sentence, this blame is not valid anymore. In the 21st century many women & Muslimahs are equal & some are the sole breadwinners of the family & it is their men who laze at home and curse & be ungrateful to their wives.


    @ Abz2000

    please do ask questions for which you actually seek answers but please avoid purposefully playing cat and mouse games simply for the sake of contention and strife. Also be aware that i am simply attempting to clarify rather than obscure via confusion. I look forward to answering your questions about the green shawl and others on a relevant thread.
    I have no interest to have a dedicated discussion on the green shawl /women in hell etc. Anyway I’m a limited member, so I don’t get to start any thread/reply in sections/subsections elsewhere. My point is either these hadiths are falsely attributed to the prophet or they were valid for the harsh 7th century Bedouin only. If you think they are true and valid for all times, please feel free to clarify to fellow Muslimahs. As the Quran says "…Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." (2:111)

    @Zafran

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    The link proves my point.........actually do some research next time.
    Hmm…I read it again and am not sure what I’m missing. Anyway let’s put things (& Ishmael) in perspective:


    1. An Aramaic guy marries an Egyptian women, has a son & settles down near Mecca, meets an Arab tribe (Jurhum), the son learns Arabic from them and marries one of them. Now the son is FATHER of ALL Arabs.
    2. A Japanese guy marries a Kenyan women, has a son & settles down near Kabul, meets a Pasthun tribe (Sarbani), the son learns Pashto from them and marries one of them. Now the son is the FATHER of ALL Pashtuns.

    If No.1 makes sense, then No.2 should too.

    Thanks

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    azc's Avatar
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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    @yandex:

    You just stopped at the prophet’s first sentence of his reply. I’m not sure why
    See, you misunderstood the hadith; and said:
    hadith narrates that women are majority in Hell because they are deficient in intelligence & deficient in religion.
    the reason (which you think) of them being in hell fire isn't deficiency in intelligence and religion, rather they are in hell because of '' (habit of) cursing frequently and ungratefulness to their husbands''

    * this is why I quoted this part of hadith to refute your wrong allegation.

    For other issue, see this link plz
    http://www.answering-christianity.co...quran_4_34.htm

    - - - Updated - - -
    @yandex:

    You just stopped at the prophet’s first sentence of his reply. I’m not sure why
    See, you misunderstood the hadith; and said:
    hadith narrates that women are majority in Hell because they are deficient in intelligence & deficient in religion.
    the reason (which you think) of them being in hell fire isn't deficiency in intelligence and religion, rather they are in hell because of '' (habit of) cursing frequently and ungratefulness to their husbands''

    * this is why I quoted this part of hadith to refute your wrong allegation.

    For other issue, see this link plz
    http://www.answering-christianity.co...quran_4_34.htm

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    An Aramaic guy marries an Egyptian women, has a son & settles down near Mecca, meets an Arab tribe (Jurhum), the son learns Arabic from them and marries one of them. Now the son is FATHER of ALL Arabs.
    How is Abraham pbuh speaking Aramaic or an Aramaic guy? What Arabic were Jurhum speaking? hes known as the father of the Arabs by the account of Genesis and many Arabs consider him the first to speak pure "Arabic" in traditional accounts - what is the point of all this again?
    About Sikhism through islam

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: About Sikhism through islam

    Quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    @ Abz2000



    I have no interest to have a dedicated discussion on the green shawl /women in hell etc. Anyway I’m a limited member, so I don’t get to start any thread/reply in sections/subsections elsewhere. My point is either these hadiths are falsely attributed to the prophet or they were valid for the harsh 7th century Bedouin only. If you think they are true and valid for all times, please feel free to clarify to fellow Muslimahs. As the Quran says "…Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." (2:111)
    Regarding the hadith i linked:
    I cannot say for certain - and don't even have an inkling as to whether these statements are authentic or not so we are therefore left with the answer: "if he said it - then it is true" and can work from the basis that it is possible that he said it if there is no valid reason for dismissing it, chains of narrations can be useful - as can be an experienced hadith scholar's opinion as to whether it seems strange in comparison to his level of intellect and other statements.
    I opine that if he did say it - he possibly gave an opinion as to why more women are in hell - the latter being an assertion of a fact that he had witnessed and not based on opinion.

    Regarding the "green" bruises greener than green shawls - firstly we know that this is an exaggerated analogy - which indicates bias, and therefore requires a defensive response:

    When the guidance of Islam arrives to a people, it gradually, and in some cases immediately, does away with traits of ignorance and social ills such as consumption of intoxicants, adultery and fornication, and burial of female children who appear to be from a different father (sons were assets since they could fight and also bring in money from the wild).

    There was no monopoly on violence (which is often held by usurers today via puppet legislators and soldiery) just as there is no strict monopoly on violence in many systems today (where an act of violence is more liberally looked at for its circumstantial merits (referencing description 2 - particular)
    circumstantial
    səːkəmˈstanʃ(ə)l/
    adjective
    1.
    pointing indirectly towards someone's guilt but not conclusively proving it.
    "the prosecution will have to rely on circumstantial evidence"
    synonyms: indirect, inferred, inferential, deduced, presumed, conjectural; More
    2.
    (of a description) containing full details.
    "the picture was so circumstantial that it began to be convincing"
    synonyms: detailed, particularized, particular, precise, minute, blow-by-blow;
    )
    even if it is coded in the secularist law books.

    So when a dynamic alpha male who holds a natural capability of violence over his family stops taking judgement corrupting intoxicants such as alcohol, stops hanging with loser friends, and stops committing adultery - he is more likely to feel indignant when the female who is more habit inclined, - - - less familiar with overall judgemental decision making in a society where war and heavy manual labour are not the woman's task, and for whom not much has really changed other than the fact that her husband is no longer drunk, sexually promiscuous, and is setting more rules in the household, - - - refuses to assimilate and allows corrupt house-to-house gossiping women, and men in whose hearts is disease who still walk in the shadows to penetrate his fortress and Allah whom he now respects and worships' fortress.


    This is a natural human transaction although it is difficult to understand by people who continue to consume intoxicants and continue to commit sexual promiscuity themselves, and where the bulk of masculine labour is borne by machines and people in poorer countries.

    The Messenger of Allah's method of involving the women who wanted to come to the mosque in Islam by commanding that the female servants of Allah must not be prevented from visiting the house of Allah would have gradually fixed this issue via reprogramming.

    A woman's indignation and a man's indignation are different generally in that the decision of the male is usually out of conviction with no direct pressure - and they will often get together and fight a leadership which is at odds with them, whereas that of the female often includes the perception of imposition by a non-perfect human being that she is bound to.

    The wandering in the wilderness of banee israeel after coming out of slavery to pharaoh had divine wisdom behind it - and of the benefits were: understanding needs and the methods to achieve them; learning teamwork, community structuring, and decision making under nature's imposition and not under the lash of taskmasters working for parasitical leaders; and removal of default psychological disdain and revolt to commands by leadership.

    Women will always face some of these emotions and have to live with them unless they devolve to hermaphrodites - which is why the Prophet advised leniency towards them and referred to them as something that can neither be fully straightened, nor left fully crooked.

    They are a department of the male who is manager of head office in terms of overall running of Allah's corporation on earth.
    That is why satan and dajjal target women and whisper rebellion to them and give them cosmetic executive positions, that is why they are more easily tricked - it is a psychological fact that people can be made to accept the unacceptable if they are desperate, and satan works to make people despair of Allah's mercy, which is why women need to be learned in Islam.


    Now that you have received your answer in a very candid fashion - please address any further questions on the relevant threads for the topics, a simple google search which includes the term islamicboard should present you the correct thread if the search bar on the top right of your screen doesn't.

    Islamic point of view domestic violence

    It is disrespectful to troll.


    In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
    Last edited by Abz2000; 07-12-2018 at 08:50 PM.
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