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The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

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    The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

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    Assalaamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu

    This is brilliant!

    Subboor Ahmad and Gerry Coghland discuss monotheism in Native America. Drawing heavily from the book titled "The Gospel of the Red Man: An Indian Bible an Indian Bible" by Ernest Thompson Seton (Compiler) Gerry expounds upon the remarkable similarities between Islam and the Monotheism of the Native Americans.



    Ramadan Mubarak
    The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    Tawhid means Unification. I don't think this what the Native American believe.
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    format_quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    Tawhid means Unification. I don't think this what the Native American believe.
    Unification of what?
    The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    format_quote Originally Posted by Grandad View Post
    Unification of what?
    I don't know! You tell me!!

    The word Tawhid in Arabic means Unification. Look in dictionary or Google translate. For example, United Arab Emirates is al'imarat alearabiat almutahida.

    Thanks
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    format_quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    I don't know! You tell me!!

    The word Tawhid in Arabic means Unification. Look in dictionary or Google translate. For example, United Arab Emirates is al'imarat alearabiat almutahida.

    Thanks
    In order to understand any given interpretation of the word ‘tawḥīd’ context is everything. We agree – I hope – that the context in this matter is not the political unification of certain Arab states, but rather the nature of God, as understood by Native Americans.

    The root ‘wāw ḥā dāl’, from which ‘tawḥīd’ is derived, occurs sixty-eight times in the Qur’an. In not one of these occurrences can ‘tawḥīd’ be rendered accurately as ‘unity’ or ‘unification’.

    Consider, for example: ‘Your God is the one (wāḥidun) God: there is no god except Him, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy.’ (Al-Baqara 163).

    One Lord. Not three in one, or one in three. Not, in any way, a unity (or unification) of more than one.

    Louay Fatoohi writes: 'Under pressure to reconcile contradictory statements in the New Testament, Christian theologians work hard to stress that the concepts of divine oneness and unity are one and the same. The Qur'an rejects this equation, as logic does. The God of the Qur'an is one, not united.’ ('Jesus The Muslim Prophet: History Speaks of a Human Messiah Not a Divine Christ').

    I have a copy of Ernest Thompson Seton’s ‘The Gospel of the Redman’. In a footnote to Section Two: ‘The Soul of the Redman’ he writes:

    ‘The conception of the Trinity, also the doctrines of Original Sin, of Vicarious Atonement, of Infant Damnation, and of Priestly Mediation, were utterly foreign to all Indian thought and teaching.’

    It is very probable, therefore, that Native Americans in Seton’s day would have understood, and would have agreed with, the Qur’anic doctrine of ‘tawḥīd’.
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    This book is published in the nineteen thirties.
    Way later than our prophet sas came to Earth.
    Yet Subboor is saying that they are 99.9% sure the Native Americans AND Thompson never heard of İslam.
    This is a clear evidence that the native americans who believed in this were Muslims...even despite of them coming to Earth after our prophet sas...yet never had heard about İslam or our Prophet sas.

    My point is this...we still have people in distant places on this Earth living and breathing...but who have no knowledge about İslam...but still be considered as Muslims.
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    @Grandad

    In order to understand any given interpretation of the word ‘tawḥīd’ context is everything. We agree – I hope – that the context in this matter is not the political unification of certain Arab states, but rather the nature of God, as understood by Native Americans.The root ‘wāw ḥā dāl’, from which ‘tawḥīd’ is derived, occurs sixty-eight times in the Qur’an. In not one of these occurrences can ‘tawḥīd’ be rendered accurately as ‘unity’ or ‘unification’. Consider, for example: ‘Your God is the one (wāḥidun) God: there is no god except Him, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy.’ (Al-Baqara 163).
    The word Tawhid does not exist in the Quran. What appeared 68 times in the Quran is the word “Wahid” which is “Single” which means it’s something Undivided/One according to the dictionary. I understand that and so do you. The same Arabic dictionary says that Tawhid means to Unify/Consolidate and union means there must be a more than one of a similar entity eg. Union of a man & women is a family. Tawhid is more appropriate describe the Christian Trinity and not the right word for Muslims to describe Oneness of Allah. It is my opinion that something is amiss here.


    @ umie
    My point is this...we still have people in distant places on this Earth living and breathing...but who have no knowledge about İslam...but still be considered as Muslims.
    What you said is valid if Islam is just about knowledge/oneness of Allah. Unfortunately for the native Indians, without the Shahadah/ proclaiming prophet Muhammad, they are not Muslims. So they may end up in Hell though its not their fault of not knowing prophet Muhammad.

    Thanks.
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    format_quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    @Grandad


    The word Tawhid does not exist in the Quran. What appeared 68 times in the Quran is the word “Wahid” which is “Single” which means it’s something Undivided/One according to the dictionary. I understand that and so do you. The same Arabic dictionary says that Tawhid means to Unify/Consolidate and union means there must be a more than one of a similar entity eg. Union of a man & women is a family. Tawhid is more appropriate describe the Christian Trinity and not the right word for Muslims to describe Oneness of Allah. It is my opinion that something is amiss here.


    @ umie

    What you said is valid if Islam is just about knowledge/oneness of Allah. Unfortunately for the native Indians, without the Shahadah/ proclaiming prophet Muhammad, they are not Muslims. So they may end up in Hell though its not their fault of not knowing prophet Muhammad.

    Thanks.
    Not true. you can jabber all you want, but Allah will never punish you for a sin which is not your fault. So, if they had no chance in getting in contact with Islam or gather information about it...then they cannot be blamed for that. they believe in God and in his oneness...that is enough to call them Muslims. That is how universal Islam is Alhamdulillah.

    It is not so easy to be thrown into hell...if you have faith in your heart by the weight of a mustard seed...that will be enough to send you to heaven eventually.
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    @ umie

    …. but Allah will never punish you for a sin which is not your fault.
    On the contrary, even a pristine infant could go to Hell.

    It was narrated that 'Aishah the Mother of the Believers said:
    "The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was called to the funeral of a child from among the Ansar. I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, glad tidings for him! He is one of the little birds of Paradise, who never did evil or reached the age of doing evil (i.e, the age of accountability).' He said: 'It may not be so, O 'Aishah! For Allah created people for Paradise, He created them for it when they were still in their father's loins, And He has created people for Hell, He created them for it when they were still in their fathers' loins.'"

    Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 82 Sunan Ibn Majah ;The Book of the Sunnah - كتاب
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    format_quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    @ umie



    On the contrary, even a pristine infant could go to Hell.

    It was narrated that 'Aishah the Mother of the Believers said:
    "The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was called to the funeral of a child from among the Ansar. I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, glad tidings for him! He is one of the little birds of Paradise, who never did evil or reached the age of doing evil (i.e, the age of accountability).' He said: 'It may not be so, O 'Aishah! For Allah created people for Paradise, He created them for it when they were still in their father's loins, And He has created people for Hell, He created them for it when they were still in their fathers' loins.'"

    Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 82 Sunan Ibn Majah ;The Book of the Sunnah - كتاب
    What this hadeeth means is this:
    we come to this world to find on our own who our God is...we leave this Earth either as a believer, or a disbeliever. Believers always go to heaven eventually...disbelievers to hell...eventually...
    people who are mentally ill...people with down syndrome...and children untill a certain age, do not have the required mental power to find their creator on their own...so, when they die, they are one of the few people who are still on the edge of believing and disbelieving. when they die and leave this world, they will be asked "who is your Lord?" depending on the answer they will go to heaven or hell.
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    @umie

    people who are mentally ill...people with down syndrome...and children untill a certain age, do not have the required mental power to find their creator on their own...so, when they die, they are one of the few people who are still on the edge of believing and disbelieving. when they die and leave this world, they will be asked "who is your Lord?" depending on the answer they will go to heaven or hell.
    You provided no authentic reference for what you wrote and is exactly opposite of what I showed you. The sahih hadith I quoted is very clear; the prophet admitting that even a sinless pristine baby could end up in Hell as Allah already created them for it while the child is still in their father's loin.

    we come to this world to find on our own who our God is...we leave this Earth either as a believer, or a disbeliever. Believers always go to heaven eventually...disbelievers to hell...eventually....
    That's not true. Now read another sahih hadith below which will dispel all doubts. You can be a sinless baby, you can be a devout believers, you can a disbeliever, you can do good deed, you can do bad deeds, it doesn't matter. What matters is what has been ordained for you. Basically this means there is no real free will. I think that without free will , we are nothing but a programmed zombie.

    Narrated `Abdullah:
    Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), the truthful and truly-inspired, said, "Each one of you collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turns into a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his provision, his age, and whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter). Then the soul is breathed into him. And by Allah, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which Allah has ordered the angel to write) precedes, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing precedes and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it."

    Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6594 Book of Divine Will (Al-Qadar)



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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    format_quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    @umie

    You provided no authentic reference for what you wrote and is exactly opposite of what I showed you. The sahih hadith I quoted is very clear; the prophet admitting that even a sinless pristine baby could end up in Hell as Allah already created them for it while the child is still in their father's loin.

    That's not true. Now read another sahih hadith below which will dispel all doubts. You can be a sinless baby, you can be a devout believers, you can a disbeliever, you can do good deed, you can do bad deeds, it doesn't matter. What matters is what has been ordained for you. Basically this means there is no real free will. I think that without free will , we are nothing but a programmed zombie.

    Narrated `Abdullah:
    Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), the truthful and truly-inspired, said, "Each one of you collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turns into a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his provision, his age, and whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter). Then the soul is breathed into him. And by Allah, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which Allah has ordered the angel to write) precedes, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing precedes and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it."

    Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6594 Book of Divine Will (Al-Qadar)
    somebody please help this woman. I'm getting tired.

    If you do not understand the hadeeth or verses, then you better leave it alone.

    why did Allah create them for it while it was still in their fathers loins? Because He is all knowing.
    During creation He already knows, this person is going to Hell and this person is going to Paradise. that is the direct consequence of being al knowing.

    you can build a toy car, give it a little push and release it and see whether it goes slightly to the left or right...depending how it is build...one tire slightly bigger than the other, or resistance on one side bigger, or not exactly symetrical or its path is not exactly leveled. However, you do not dictate the exact path the car takes, you let the car find his own route...
    but if you were all knowing (astagfirullah) you would already know before you even build the car...this still does not mean that the car is not finding his own route...you just happen to know it before hand.
    Similarly, God already knows which one of us goes to Hell and which one of us is going to Paradise...this however does not affect our own free will...

    here is the hadeeth that your actions and decisions of your whole life are already written beforehand in the womb:
    Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) who is the most truthful (of the human beings) and his being truthful (is a fact) said:
    Verily your creation is on this wise. The constituents of one of you are collected for forty days in his mother's womb in the form of blood, after which it becomes a clot of blood in another period of forty days. Then it becomes a lump of flesh and forty days later Allah sends His angel to it with instructions concerning four things, so the angel writes down his livelihood, his death, his deeds, his fortune and misfortune. By Him, besides Whom there is no god, that one amongst you acts like the people deserving Paradise until between him and Paradise there remains but the distance of a cubit, when suddenly the writing of destiny overcomes him and he begins to act like the denizens of Hell and thus enters Hell, and another one acts in the way of the denizens of Hell, until there remains between him and Hell a distance of a cubit that the writing of destiny overcomes him and then he begins to act like the people of Paradise and enters Paradise.
    Reference : Sahih Muslim 2643 a
    In-book reference : Book 46, Hadith 1
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 33, Hadith 6390

    here's another hadeeth:

    Hudhaifa b. Usaid reported directly from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) that he said:
    When the drop of (semen) remains in the womb for forty or fifty (days) or forty nights, the angel comes and says: My Lord, will he be good or evil? And both these things would be written. Then the angel says: My Lord, would he be male or female? And both these things are written. And his deeds and actions, his death, his livelihood; these are also recorded. Then his document of destiny is rolled and there is no addition to nor subtraction from it.
    Reference : Sahih Muslim 2644
    In-book reference : Book 46, Hadith 3
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 33, Hadith 6392

    'Ali reported that one day Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was sitting with a wood in his hand and he was scratching the ground. He raised his head and said:
    There is not one amongst you who has not been allotted his seat in Paradise or Hell. They said: Allah's Messenger. then, why should we perform good deeds, why not depend upon our destiny? Thereupon he said. No, do perform good deeds, for everyone is facilitated in that for which he has been created; then he recited this verse:" Then, who gives to the needy and guards against evil and accepts the excellent (the truth of Islam and the path of righteousness it prescribes), We shall make easy for him the easy end..." (xcii. 5-10).
    Reference : Sahih Muslim 2647 c
    In-book reference : Book 46, Hadith 11
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 33, Hadith 6400

    Ali reported:
    We were in a funeral in the graveyard of Gharqad when Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came to us and we sat around him. He had a stick with him. He lowered his head and began to scratch the earth with his stick, and then said: There is not one amongst you whom a seat in Paradise or Hell has not been allotted and about whom it has not been written down whether he would be an evil person or a blessed person. A person said: Allah's Messenger, should we not then depend upon our destiny and abandon our deeds? Thereupon he said: Acts of everyone will be facilitated in that which has been created for him so that whoever belongs to the company of the blessed will have good works made easier for him and whoever belongs to the unfortunate ones will have evil acts made easier for him. He then recited this verse (from the Qur'an): "Then, who gives to the needy and guards against evil and accepts the excellent (the truth of Islam and the path of righteousness it prescribes), We shall make easy for him the easy end and who is miserly and considers himself above need, We shall make easy for him the difficult end" (xcii. 5-10).
    Reference : Sahih Muslim 2647 a
    In-book reference : Book 46, Hadith 9
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 33, Hadith 6398

    So, these hadeeth make clear that your deeds, decisions, how long you will live, male or female, how you would look like, whether you would be rich or poor, whether you would die as a believer or disbeliever, All is already written down before you were born.
    So the child in the hadeeth you are referring to forms no exception.

    Then Surah 7:45-49 speaks about people of Al-Araf, a high wall between Heaven and Hell. on this wall will be the people who are saved from Hell, but did not deserve Heaven yet.
    They will ask Allah to grant them heaven...(so, even at that moment they do not know what will happen to them) Allah eventually will let them in Heaven, purely out of mercy
    (I was wrong about the Question "who is your Lord")
    But then again, You cannot say that the people of Al-Araf will go to Heaven beforehand...because they are not granted Heaven yet...they will enter Heaven last.
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    @ umie

    Similarly, God already knows which one of us goes to Hell and which one of us is going to Paradise...this however does not affect our own free will...
    .
    Knowing what will happen is different from ordaining what should happen. Ordainment is an order. Thus you lack free will and its not your fault as the hadith below demonstrate. I cannot phantom a God who may send a soul of a pure infant to Hell for whatever reason.

    Abu Hurairah reported the Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him) as saying :
    Adam and Moses held a disputation. Moses said : Adam you are our father. You deprived us and caused us to come out from Paradise. Adam said : You are Moses Allah chose you for his speech and wrote the Torah for you with his hand. Do you blame me for doing a deed which Allah had decreed that I should do forty year before he created me? So Adam got the better of Moses in argument.
    Ahmad b. Salih said from 'Amr from Tawus who heard Abu Hurairah.

    Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4701 Book of Model Behavior of the Prophet (Kitab Al-Sunnah)
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    format_quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    @ umie



    Knowing what will happen is different from ordaining what should happen. Ordainment is an order. Thus you lack free will and its not your fault as the hadith below demonstrate. I cannot phantom a God who may send a soul of a pure infant to Hell for whatever reason.

    Abu Hurairah reported the Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him) as saying :
    Adam and Moses held a disputation. Moses said : Adam you are our father. You deprived us and caused us to come out from Paradise. Adam said : You are Moses Allah chose you for his speech and wrote the Torah for you with his hand. Do you blame me for doing a deed which Allah had decreed that I should do forty year before he created me? So Adam got the better of Moses in argument.
    Ahmad b. Salih said from 'Amr from Tawus who heard Abu Hurairah.

    Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4701 Book of Model Behavior of the Prophet (Kitab Al-Sunnah)
    sigh...this hadeeth is about Adam as making a mistake and eating that forbidden fruit. Moses as is accusing him of being the fault that all minkind coming to earth. But Adam as says...we come to Earth not because I ate from that fruit...we would come to Earth anyways whether I ate that fruit or not...By the way, Allah already forgave him for that mistake...why would Allah punish him anyways by sending him to the Earth when He already forgave him?

    So again...eating that fruit and being send to Earth has nothing to do with each other.
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    format_quote Originally Posted by yandex View Post
    @Grandad..................

    You write: ‘Tawhid is more appropriate (to) describe the Christian Trinity and not the right word for Muslims to describe Oneness of Allah’.

    All that is required to show that the Qur’an denies this claim absolutely (as well as the doctrine of the Trinity itself) is the ‘Nicene Creed’; the ‘Athanasian Creed’; a section of the ‘Symbol of Faith’ (Creed) of the Eleventh Council of Toledo - said by Dr Ludwig Ott to be: ‘The most complete formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity in a Creed since the times of the Fathers.’ (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma’); and some verses from Surahs ‘Al-Ikhlas’ and ‘Al-Ma’ida.’

    As you know, the ‘Nicene Creed’ declares that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) is the: ‘only-begotten Son of God’. This claim is supported - and clarified - by the Athanasian Creed, which confesses that: ‘The Son is from the Father alone, not made not created but generated.’ (Denzinger 39). This tells us that the word ‘beget’, when applied to the Exalted, refers to a process of generation by act of Divine Will. The First Person (the ‘Father’) generates; and the Second Person (the ‘Son’) is generated.

    In Surah ‘Al-Ikhlas’ we read: 'Say: ''He is Allāh the One, Allāh the eternal. He begot no one nor was He begotten. No one is comparable to Him.''' (Verses 1-4).

    The message is clear: The Exalted does not beget (generate); therefore, He cannot be the First of the three Persons of the Trinity. Neither is He begotten (generated), and therefore cannot be the Second Person. This revelation alone denies the existence of a ‘Trinity’, and therefore your claim that ‘tawḥīd’ is: ‘more appropriate (to) describe (that) Trinity’.

    And now we must see what the Exalted has to say about the Third Person; the Holy Spirit.

    In the ‘Symbol of Toledo’ we read that while the Holy Spirit is truly ‘God, one and equal with God the Father and the Son, of one substance and of one nature’ he is neither ‘unbegotten nor begotten’ but proceeds from both the Father and the Son.’ This process is said to occur by means of a: ‘Single Principle through a Single Spiration.’ (Ott: ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma).

    You will be familiar with the ‘Gloria’; an ancient doxology. The Latin translation of the Gloria is attributed to Hilary of Poiters – a Bishop and Doctor of the Church. It is said that he learned of it while in the East; around 359-360 CE. It is associated with the Vetus Latina – a collection of Latin manuscripts that existed before the Vulgate – and it would have been known to the Christians of Arabia. It is very probable that it formed part of their liturgy or private devotions; as it does in the Church today. Here it is:

    ‘Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will. We praise you, we bless you, we adore you, we glorify you, we give you thanks for your great glory; Lord God, heavenly King; O God, almighty Father.

    ‘Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son, Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us; you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer. You are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us. For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.’

    A delegation of Najran Christians visited the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) - at Medina - in 631CE. The Najrans were Trinitarian, but differed from the Western Church when it came to the nature of the incarnate Christ. It is probable that Muhammad discussed the Trinity with the Najrans - and with other Trinitarians - at Median. He may well have referred to ‘Al-Ikhlas’, and its affirmation that the Exalted is neither the First Person of the Trinity, nor the Second. Any such discussion would surely have led to his being challenged on the status of the Third Person. It may be that the Trinitarians believed (wrongly) that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) considered Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) to be simply the Holy Spirit (in their eyes, the Third of three). This is speculation, of course; but what we know for sure is that certain persons did indeed speak of the Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) in this way, for He tells us: ‘Those people who say that Allāh is the third of three are defying (the truth)…’ (Al-Ma’ida: 73).

    It’s worth noting that ‘Al-Ma’ida’ is a very late Median Surah (apart from its last two verses). It is the 112th to have been revealed (out of 114); perhaps at, or around the time of, the Najran visit to Median; and perhaps in answer to the challenge: ‘What of the Third Person.’ I don’t know. It’s just a thought.

    What is not in question is Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s assurance that He is not ‘God the Father’; not ‘God the Son’; and not ‘God the Holy Spirit’. He is simply God; not three Persons, but one Person.

    ‘Tawḥīd’ - in the context of the Qur’an - is exactly the right word to use when describing the Oneness of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

    Perhaps now you understand why no Muslim is a Trinitarian.


    You write: ‘The word Tawhid does not exist in the Quran……… What appeared 68 times in the Quran is the word “Wahid” which is “Single” which means it’s something Undivided/One according to the dictionary.’

    Do you need to be reminded that Muslims do not base their faith on a dictionary - on any dictionary - no matter how erudite it happens to be?

    In the Qur’an, none of the sixty-eight occurrences of the root ‘wāw ḥā dāl’ (from which the doctrine of ‘tawḥīd’ is derived) permit us to render that word as ‘unity’ or ‘unification’ when speaking of the nature of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). Twenty-two of these occurrences affirm His Oneness; none of the remaining forty-six refer to His nature at all.

    The Qur’an provides more than enough justification for the doctrine of ‘tawḥīd’, as understood by the Muslims.

    Returning to the central theme of this thread:

    Allow me to remind you of Seton’s words: ‘The conception of the Trinity, also the doctrines of Original Sin, of Vicarious Atonement, of Infant Damnation, and of Priestly Mediation, were utterly foreign to all Indian thought and teaching.’ (‘The Gospel of the Redman’).

    Muslims, and the Native Americans of Seton’s day, are firmly unitarian (I might say tawḥīdian). You may not agree with them; but that’s the way it is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    format_quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    What this hadeeth means is this:
    we come to this world to find on our own who our God is...we leave this Earth either as a believer, or a disbeliever. Believers always go to heaven eventually...disbelievers to hell...eventually...
    people who are mentally ill...people with down syndrome...and children untill a certain age, do not have the required mental power to find their creator on their own...so, when they die, they are one of the few people who are still on the edge of believing and disbelieving. when they die and leave this world, they will be asked "who is your Lord?" depending on the answer they will go to heaven or hell.
    As-Salāmu ‘alaykum wa Rahmatullāhi wa Barakātuhu, sister.

    You are perfectly correct to say that certain persons cannot sin:

    'Ali narrated that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “The pen has been raised for three persons (meaning that these will not be held accountable for their actions): one who is sleeping until he gets up; a child until he reaches the age of puberty; and an insane person until he becomes sane.”’ (see: At-Tirmidhi; Volume 3; Chapter 1: ‘What Has Been Related About Those From Whom Punishment Is Not Required; Number 1423). See also Nasa’I (3432); Ibn Majah 2041; and Abu Dawud (4403).

    - - - Updated - - -
    @yandex

    Islam teaches that we are indeed punished for our own sins; but denies that we suffer the consequences of Adam's sin.

    It has been said that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) ‘punished’ Adam by ‘throwing him out of the garden of Eden.’ This is incorrect.

    The Exalted tells us, in Surah ‘Al-Baqara: ‘(Prophet), when your Lord told the angels: “I am putting a successor on earth,” they said: “How can You put someone there who will cause damage and bloodshed, when we celebrate Your praise and proclaim Your holiness?”. But He said: “I know things you do not.” He taught Adam all the names (of things), then He showed them to the angels and said: “Tell me the names of these if you truly (think you can)”. They said: “May You be glorified! We have knowledge only of what You have taught us. You are the All Knowing and All Wise.” Then He said: “Adam, tell them the names of these.” When he told them their names, Allāh said: “Did I not tell you that I know what is hidden in the heavens and the earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you conceal?”

    ‘When We told the angels: “Bow down before Adam,” they all bowed. But not Iblis, who refused and was arrogant: he was one of the disobedient. We said: “Adam, live with your wife in this garden. Both of you eat freely there as you will, but do not go near this tree, or you will both become wrongdoers.” But Iblis made them slip, and removed them from the state they were in. We said: “Get out, all of you! You are each other’s enemy. On earth you will have a place to stay and livelihood for a time.” Then Adam received some words from his Lord and He accepted his repentance: He is the Ever Relenting, the Most Merciful. We said: “Get out, all of you! But when guidance comes from Me, as it certainly will, there will be no fear for those who follow My guidance nor will they grieve - those who disbelieve and deny Our messages shall be the inhabitants of the Fire, and there they will remain.”’ (Verses: 30-39).

    Note the opening words: ‘I am putting a successor on Earth’. This was always Adam’s intended destination.

    Admittedly, Adam left Paradise (the Garden) after having sinned. But note the line: ‘Then Adam received some words from his Lord ……’. These are taken to mean that Adam was taught the meaning of repentance. He did repent, and was forgiven.

    It is the position of the Muslims that where the Bible and the Qur’an agree; there is no problem. That where the Bible contradicts the Qur’an; then the Qur’an takes precedence. That where there is neither agreement nor disagreement; then the matter is open for discussion, and Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) knows best!

    The Bible and the Qur’an agree that the Exalted created both Adam and Eve; but they differ as to what happened next.

    In Genesis, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) prohibits both Adam and Eve from eating the fruits of the forbidden tree. However, the snake seduces Eve, and persuades her to eat from it: 'Now, the snake was the most subtle of all the wild animals that Yahweh God had made. It asked the woman: “Did God really say you were not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?” The woman answered the snake: “We may eat the fruit of the trees in the garden. But of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, ‘You must not eat it, nor touch it, under pain of death.’” Then the snake said to the woman: “No! You will not die! God knows in fact that the day you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, knowing good from evil.”. The woman saw that the tree was good to eat and pleasing to the eye, and that it was enticing for the wisdom that it could give. So she took some of its fruit and ate it.’ (Genesis; 3: 1-6).

    We are then told that Eve, in turn, seduced Adam to eat with her; and that when Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) rebuked Adam for what he did, he put all the blame on Eve: ‘(God asked): “Have you been eating from the tree I forbade you to eat?” The man replied: “It was the woman you put with me; she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”’ (Verses 11-12).

    Consequently, the Exalted said to Eve: ‘I shall give you intense pain in childbearing, you will give birth to your children in pain.’ (Verse 16).

    The Qur’an presents a different account: ‘But you, Adam, and your wife live in the Garden. Both of you eat whatever you like, but do not go near this tree or you will become wrongdoers. Satan whispered to them so as to expose their nakedness, which had been hidden from them. He said: “Your Lord only forbade you this tree to prevent you becoming angels or immortals,” and he swore to them: “I am giving you sincere advice” - he lured them with lies. Their nakedness became exposed to them when they had eaten from the tree: they began to put together leaves from the Garden to cover themselves. Their Lord called to them: “Did I not forbid you to approach that tree? Did I not warn you that Satan was your sworn enemy?” (Al-A‘raf: 19-23).

    You will see that the Qur’an - in contrast to the Bible - places equal blame on both Adam and Eve for their mistake. Nowhere in the Qur’an do we find even the slightest suggestion that Eve tempted Adam to eat from the tree; or even that she had eaten before him. In the Qur’an, Eve is not a temptress; not a seducer; and not a deceiver. Moreover, she is not told that she (and by implication, all women after her) would suffer intense pain in childbearing as a direct result of her actions.

    Adam and Eve committed a sin. That much is clear. It was not Adam alone. When challenged they replied: ‘Our Lord, we have wronged our souls: if You do not forgive us and have mercy, we shall be lost.’ (Al-A‘raf: 23).

    Muslims do not accept that ‘mankind suffers the consequences of Adam and Eve's sin’; and the reason they do not accept this is that the pair were forgiven.

    Islam places great emphasis on the nature of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s forgiveness - not just for Adam and Eve - but for each of us. According to Islamic theology all will stand before Him on the Day of Judgment. Each will be given a record of their lives. Those whose book is placed in their right hand will be admitted to Paradise; and those whose book is placed in their left will not.

    It is a tradition that a record of good deeds is made straight away; but that a record of bad deeds is delayed for some hours, to allow for repentance. Even when a sin is recorded it can be erased by sincere and genuine repentance (tawbah). Not only does tawbah wipe out an evil deed, it transforms that deed into a good one: ‘Those who repent, believe, and do good deeds, Allāh will change the evil deeds of such people into good ones. He is most forgiving, most merciful’ (Al-Furqan: 70).

    Every day of their lives - many times a day - Muslims speak the words: ‘The Lord of Mercy’; ‘The Giver of Mercy’; ‘The Compassionate’; ‘The Merciful’. These are the Beloved‘s Names. We did not give them to Him, He chose them for Himself. Of all His Names these are His favorite. That is why we are asked to speak them so often - so that we do not forget Who it is that loves us; Who it is that binds us to Himself with ties of tenderness, mercy and forgiveness.

    The truth that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) not only forgives sin, but wipes them out is proclaimed in the Bible also: ‘Yahweh is tenderness and pity, slow to anger and rich in faithful love; His indignation does not last for ever, nor His resentment remain for all time; He does not treat us as our sins deserve, nor repay us as befits our offences. As the height of Heaven above earth, so strong is His faithful love for those who fear Him. As the distance of east from west, so far from us does He put our faults. As tenderly as a father treats his children, so Yahweh treats those who fear Him; He knows of what we are made, He remembers that we are dust.’ (Psalm 103: 8-14).

    Christians and Muslims agree that the love, mercy and compassion of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) is the greatest of things, without which none of us could stand, not even for the briefest of moments. A person could spend an eternity of lifetimes in contemplation of this truth and not touch the depth and breadth of it.

    In conclusion:

    Adam and Eve were not ‘thrown out of the Garden’ in punishment, as Christian’s claim. The Qur'an has made it clear that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) accepted their repentance and pardoned them. His command that they leave the Garden for Earth brought to fulfilment the purpose for which they were created in the first place.
    Last edited by Grandad; 07-15-2018 at 07:11 PM.
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    Muslim: "There is only of God - with no partner, no parents, no children, no equals or likenesses, no real rivals".

    Dumbass finger pointer: "He's dividing everyone
    - With his call that God is one"
    Last edited by Abz2000; 07-15-2018 at 07:05 PM.
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    format_quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    somebody please help this woman. I'm getting tired.
    Its because its a troll - googling random hadiths and claiming things that are not even in the Text or have zero bearing on the discussion - its a pointless discourse.
    The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

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    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    Its because its a troll - googling random hadiths and claiming things that are not even in the Text or have zero bearing on the discussion - its a pointless discourse.
    @umie
    @Grandad
    @Zafran

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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    Such clarity of thought
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    Re: The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    @yandex

    Can you stop lying


    In Islam, God (Arabic: الله‎, translit. Allāh, contraction of الْإِلٰه al-ilāh, lit. "the god") is indivisible, the God, the absolute one, the all-powerful and all-knowing ruler of the universe, and the creator of everything in existence within the universe. Islam emphasizes that God is strictly singular (tawḥīd ): unique (wāḥid ), inherently One (aḥad ),[1] also all-merciful and omnipotent.[2] God is neither a material nor a spiritual being.[3] According to Islamic teachings, beyond the Throne[4] and according to the Quran, "No vision can grasp him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."[5][6]"

    Surat Iklass

    Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem
    Qul huwal laahu ahad
    Allah hus-samad
    Lam yalid wa lam yoolad
    Wa lam yakul-lahu kufuwan ahad

    Try to do basic research next time.

    What is the point of you being here?
    Last edited by Zafran; 07-17-2018 at 04:45 AM.
    The Evolution of Belief & Native American Tawheed!

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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