The original scriptures that were sent by God to the real Prophets were authentic in whatever language they were in.
Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." (al-Imran: 84)
"But those firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you. And the establishers of prayer [especially] and the givers of zakah and the believers in Allah and the Last Day - those We will give a great reward. Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms]. And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech. [We sent] messengers as bringers of good tidings and warners so that mankind will have no argument against Allah after the messengers. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise." (an-Nisa: 162-165)
But this is not what we have today. We do not have those originals in their pristine form. And the ones who were entrusted with God's revelations have proven to be far less than trustworthy.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. The corruptions that came to the bible are due to men.
So your whole claim is based on error through translation? Do you believe one with spiritual discernment wouldn't be able to see the Light and Word of GOD even through "errenous" translation?
Can we not bring up claims against the Bible and compare them to what is actually written? Can we not take what is written and compare it to the Quran?
If we aren't to fear anything but righteous judgement of our LORD, then what harm is there in comparative study?
Last edited by popsthebuilder; 07-15-2018 at 12:44 PM.
So it is beyond the capacity of our GOD to provide man with sacred texts that have been translated? Is the Quran translated into any other language? How many different versions are there per language?
With all respect sir, you are not using logic here.
God being capable has nothing to do with this.
In analogy:
You are filling your fuel tank with water...
I am telling you that your engine would not fire in that state...
you are telling me: is God not capable of letting my engine run with water instead of fuel?
Of course He is perfectly capable of making your engine run on water...but that doesn't mean that He will make that happen.
Of course He is perfectly capable of to provide man with sacred texts in every possible modern language and dialect...but that doesn't mean He will make that happen.
That also does not give us the right to go make changes to sacred text just because we want a certain version to a certain group of people.
who are you to have the guts to change even a letter on a sacred text and call that the absolute truth?
So your whole claim is based on error through translation? Do you believe one with spiritual discernment wouldn't be able to see the Light and Word of GOD even through "errenous" translation?
Sister umie pointed out very well earlier that this is not just an issue of translation but there are multiple versions of the bible in even the same language.
As far as "spiritual discernment" is concerned, by which to see the Light of God, then this is muddled by the darkness of our sins of which we as mankind have plenty. That's why we need a Book that is clear, concise, and certain with no confusion and no alternate versions so that we may be guided out of darknesses into the light by God's permission.
So your whole claim is based on error through translation? Do you believe one with spiritual discernment wouldn't be able to see the Light and Word of GOD even through "errenous" translation?
no, the whole claim is not based only on error through translation...that is just one cause.
one other cause is that people created different versions of the Bible like the king james version or the English standard version, or the new revised standard...
So the original version is not good enough for you, so you create a new version?
A third cause is that the Bible is written by merely humans. It is not Gods words...it is just what people saw and heard and wrote that down in their best ability.
Much like the hadeeth about Muhammed sas life.
Problem here is that you call Jesus "God"...and that automatically makes those ordinairy people "prophets"...so anything those so called "prophets" write down, automatically becomes the absolute truth...and that is the biggest cause of all the errors in the Bible.
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format_quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder
Can we not bring up claims against the Bible and compare them to what is actually written? Can we not take what is written and compare it to the Quran?
If we aren't to fear anything but righteous judgement of our LORD, then what harm is there in comparative study?
you can compare Bible verses with each other,
you can compare Bible verses with facts and logic,
you can compare Bible verses with Quran verses...it does not matter.
Compare them with anything you desire..we are not afraid of the truth.
With all respect sir, you are not using logic here.
God being capable has nothing to do with this.
In analogy:
You are filling your fuel tank with water...
I am telling you that your engine would not fire in that state...
you are telling me: is God not capable of letting my engine run with water instead of fuel?
Of course He is perfectly capable of making your engine run on water...but that doesn't mean that He will make that happen.
Of course He is perfectly capable of to provide man with sacred texts in every possible modern language and dialect...but that doesn't mean He will make that happen.
That also does not give us the right to go make changes to sacred text just because we want a certain version to a certain group of people.
who are you to have the guts to change even a letter on a sacred text and call that the absolute truth?
Thank you friend.
I would never say or believe it is pleasing in the sight of our GOD to alter the meaning of any sacred texts whatsoever.
Do you think it is the will of GOD that all return to HIM? IS GOD both merciful and just? Your analogy seems inaccurate to me as I'm not believing some odd thing such as combustion from water, but that is it plausable that GOD, can guide us using the writings of men inspired by GOD to write? GOD can communicate in any means HE deems fit. I would think that sacred texts would be a way HE may deem fit. Which is why comparative study seems imperative to know if one is claiming a whole book and people as against GOD.
Can we not bring up claims against the Bible and compare them to what is actually written? Can we not take what is written and compare it to the Quran?
If we aren't to fear anything but righteous judgement of our LORD, then what harm is there in comparative study?
I had already sent a link before. You can scroll down to where it says 101 clear contradictions. You don't have to read all of them. The first few should be enough.
I would be open to an explanation showing that there is a wrong interpretation and that the right interpretation is such and such but the problem here is that you have cases of the exact same event mentioned in two different places in the bible but they are both giving two different numbers. Numbers can't really mean anything different other than their numerical value. These are clear contradictions.
Can we not take what is written and compare it to the Quran?
Like I said before, the Quran would be our criteria. Whatever the bible says that is in accordance with the Quran and Sunnah, we affirm. (For example, the truth of Jesus [Peace Be Upon Him] being born of the virgin Mary [Peace Be Upon Her]), whatever contradicts the Quran and Sunnah, we reject (like the crucifixion--We do not believe Jesus was crucified) whatever has neither been confirmed or denied in the Quran or Sunnah we are silent about (God Knows best).
no, the whole claim is not based only on error through translation...that is just one cause.
one other cause is that people created different versions of the Bible like the king james version or the English standard version, or the new revised standard...
So the original version is not good enough for you, so you create a new version?
A third cause is that the Bible is written by merely humans. It is not Gods words...it is just what people saw and heard and wrote that down in their best ability.
Much like the hadeeth about Muhammed sas life.
Problem here is that you call Jesus "God"...and that automatically makes those ordinairy people "prophets"...so anything those so called "prophets" write down, automatically becomes the absolute truth...and that is the biggest cause of all the errors in the Bible.
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you can compare Bible verses with each other,
you can compare Bible verses with facts and logic,
you can compare Bible verses with Quran verses...it does not matter.
Compare them with anything you desire..we are not afraid of the truth.
There are indeed different English translations. Upon actual unbiased study one would find that the all say the same things. Some could be harder for some to understand, and it seems as if some writings were almost translated that one might not understand. Though such a case can do nothing against what our LORD purposes. I would agree that it is best to reference interlinears once one has found a version they can seemingly understand; just to be certain, or double check.
I don't know why you insist the original is not good enough for me. I assure you I reference and interlinear often and study words and roots and origins of words that I might grasp their meaning wholly. I would suggest any sincere and serious do the same.
All written material we have on this Earth was/ is written by man/woman/ creation. Of this make no mistake.
Did not blessed Mohammed hear from an angel of the LORD, and recite to His brother; and His brother actually wrote the words recited to him? Correct me please, if I am wrong. I do not deny that I may be wrong on this issue.
Who are you referencing that calls Jesus GOD almighty? I tell you now that no man is equal to GOD almighty. It is the Spirit and Word that are of GOD almighty; even that is still "of" and as such; cannot be the literal fullness there of.
What ordinary people are you referencing who are made prophets?
I had already sent a link before. You can scroll down to where it says 101 clear contradictions. You don't have to read all of them. The first few should be enough.
I would be open to an explanation showing that there is a wrong interpretation and that the right interpretation is such and such but the problem here is that you have cases of the exact same event mentioned in two different places in the bible but they are both giving two different numbers. Numbers can't really mean anything different other than their numerical value. These are clear contradictions.
Like I said before, the Quran would be our criteria. Whatever the bible says that is in accordance with the Quran and Sunnah, we affirm. (For example, the truth of Jesus [Peace Be Upon Him] being born of the virgin Mary [Peace Be Upon Her]), whatever contradicts the Quran and Sunnah, we reject (like the crucifixion--We do not believe Jesus was crucified) whatever has neither been confirmed or denied in the Quran or Sunnah we are silent about (God Knows best).
I wasn't looking for any link friend.
Some here claim the Bible is both self contradictory and contradictory to the Quran. I say present your own case and point that we might learn the truth together.
I would never say or believe it is pleasing in the sight of our GOD to alter the meaning of any sacred texts whatsoever.
Do you think it is the will of GOD that all return to HIM? IS GOD both merciful and just? Your analogy seems inaccurate to me as I'm not believing some odd thing such as combustion from water, but that is it plausable that GOD, can guide us using the writings of men inspired by GOD to write? GOD can communicate in any means HE deems fit. I would think that sacred texts would be a way HE may deem fit. Which is why comparative study seems imperative to know if one is claiming a whole book and people as against GOD.
No that is really not plausable. writing of men could be a book or encyclopedia or some sort where the verses of the Holy text are translated and explained how to interpret or some sort...that would be acceptable...at least you would know that that book is a tool to understand the Holy text.
humans can not just write out a complete different version of the Bible just because that is more suitable to a certain group of people and call that the absolute word or God and pray to it.
Who are we to alter Gods words? that is arrogance
God can guide us in every possible way...but this is deliberate misguidance by people.
Do you think it is the will of GOD that all return to HIM? IS GOD both merciful and just? Your analogy seems inaccurate to me as I'm not believing some odd thing such as combustion from water, but that is it plausable that GOD, can guide us using the writings of men inspired by GOD to write? GOD can communicate in any means HE deems fit. I would think that sacred texts would be a way HE may deem fit. Which is why comparative study seems imperative to know if one is claiming a whole book and people as against GOD.
What she said before is that God can do anything, but it doesn't mean that He will. God Will NOT inspire anyone with revelation except those whom He has chosen as Prophets. As for everyone else who writes and says that what he has written is from God, then he is receiving an entirely different "inspiration"
"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ,"...(al-Baqarah: 79)
No that is really not plausable. writing of men could be a book or encyclopedia or some sort where the verses of the Holy text are translated and explained how to interpret or some sort...that would be acceptable...at least you would know that that book is a tool to understand the Holy text.
humans can not just write out a complete different version of the Bible just because that is more suitable to a certain group of people and call that the absolute word or God and pray to it.
Who are we to alter Gods words? that is arrogance
God can guide us in every possible way...but this is deliberate misguidance by people.
So you are claiming that English words don't have synonyms? Or that things can't be stated seemingly differently, yet mean the same thing? Such is illogical to me friend.
peace
Last edited by popsthebuilder; 07-15-2018 at 01:48 PM.
What she said before is that God can do anything, but it doesn't mean that He will. God Will NOT inspire anyone with revelation except those whom He has chosen as Prophets. As for everyone else who writes and says that what he has written is from God, then he is receiving an entirely different "inspiration"
"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ,"...(al-Baqarah: 79)
Of course.
The very same is expressed multiple times in the Bible. Not to add to or remove from the sacred texts; and that such is a damnable offence.
There are indeed different English translations. Upon actual unbiased study one would find that the all say the same things. Some could be harder for some to understand, and it seems as if some writings were almost translated that one might not understand. Though such a case can do nothing against what our LORD purposes. I would agree that it is best to reference interlinears once one has found a version they can seemingly understand; just to be certain, or double check.
I understand that there is the need to have different translations for different groups of people...and I do not mind to have different translations...but those are only translations and versions...it is just a book...not the real deal. Christians acting like them as being the absolute word of God and they pray with it in church...that is wrong in my opinion.
format_quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder
I don't know why you insist the original is not good enough for me. I assure you I reference and interlinear often and study words and roots and origins of words that I might grasp their meaning wholly. I would suggest any sincere and serious do the same.
All written material we have on this Earth was/ is written by man/woman/ creation. Of this make no mistake.
Did not blessed Mohammed hear from an angel of the LORD, and recite to His brother; and His brother actually wrote the words recited to him? Correct me please, if I am wrong. I do not deny that I may be wrong on this issue.
Let me please add something to that.
Yes, Muhammad sas got that recited from angel Gabriel. Muhammad sas in turn dictated this to the people...but...he always dictated to multiple people simultaniously...not just one...and immediately the spreading and learning those verses by heart begun...so every verse got preserved untill the last letter perfectly and immediately after our prophet sas spoke them out.
even in prayer when the imaam make a mistake during verse recitation...people behind him were able to correct the imaams mistake.
So, yes...all material on this Earth is written by man...but in the case of the Quran, we can be certain that every character is correct...misplaced words and letters would immediately be noticed.
format_quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder
Who are you referencing that calls Jesus GOD almighty? I tell you now that no man is equal to GOD almighty. It is the Spirit and Word that are of GOD almighty; even that is still "of" and as such; cannot be the literal fullness there of.
What ordinary people are you referencing who are made prophets?
I've already done the comparisons friend.
I look forward to your next reply.
peace
I do not understand what you mean by this exactly. Don't you christians pray to Jesus as as your Lord?
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[QUOTE=popsthebuilder;2995996]
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
So you are claiming that English words don't have synonyms? Or that things can't be stated seemingly differently, yet mean the same thing? Such is illogical to me friend.
peace
I do not know what you exactly mean by this...but sysnonyms can mean the same...but at the same time carry a complete different load...and that is exactly where the danger starts...by using synonyms...why would you transfer Gods words with synonyms if you can use the exact wording?
you can speak out the original verse and after that do the explaining if you like...why would you alter Gods words?
[QUOTE=umie;2995998]I understand that there is the need to have different translations for different groups of people...and I do not mind to have different translations...but those are only translations and versions...it is just a book...not the real deal. Christians acting like them as being the absolute word of God and they pray with it in church...that is wrong in my opinion.
Let me please add something to that.
Yes, Muhammad sas got that recited from angel Gabriel. Muhammad sas in turn dictated this to the people...but...he always dictated to multiple people simultaniously...not just one...and immediately the spreading and learning those verses by heart begun...so every verse got preserved untill the last letter perfectly and immediately after our prophet sas spoke them out.
even in prayer when the imaam make a mistake during verse recitation...people behind him were able to correct the imaams mistake.
So, yes...all material on this Earth is written by man...but in the case of the Quran, we can be certain that every character is correct...misplaced words and letters would immediately be noticed.
I do not understand what you mean by this exactly. Don't you christians pray to Jesus as as your Lord?
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format_quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder
I do not know what you exactly mean by this...but sysnonyms can mean the same...but at the same time carry a complete different load...and that is exactly where the danger starts...by using synonyms...why would you transfer Gods words with synonyms if you can use the exact wording?
you can speak out the original verse and after that do the explaining if you like...why would you alter Gods words?
You wouldn't use the original words because they are Greek and you do not understand Greek, so recitation looses much effect and becomes mere recitation of symbols that have no meaning to the reciter due to them not even knowing what they are reciting.
Our Lord GOD knows the very content of our hearts. How does self know the content of their heart is right with the Word or Spirit or direction of GOD if they do not understand but only recite from practiced habbit?
To be clear friend; not all Christian's conflate the temporal with the Eternal. Jesus died on the cross. The Spirit that filled Him did not.
The Holy Temple of GOD was indeed destroyed; the substance of that Holy blessed vessel was not and cannot ever be destroyed as such is the very Spirit of GOD.
peace
Last edited by popsthebuilder; 07-15-2018 at 02:25 PM.
Some here claim the Bible is both self contradictory and contradictory to the Quran. I say present your own case and point that we might learn the truth together.
peace
The link contained what you were asking for:
Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
(a) God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
(b) Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)
In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?
(a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
(b) One million, one hundred thousand (IChronicles 21:5)
How many fighting men were found in Judah?
(a) Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
(b) Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?
(a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
(b) Three (I Chronicles 21:12)
How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)
How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
(a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)
(b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)
And these are just a few. In all of these (and others) there is the same event mentioned in two different places with two different numbers. Is there a misinterpretation here? Did God "inspire" two different authors with two different facts of the same event?? I seek refuge in Allah from ever believing in such.
So you are claiming that English words don't have synonyms? Or that things can't be stated seemingly differently, yet mean the same thing? Such is illogical to me friend.
There needs to be a clarification here. Do you or do you not believe that the bible is the words of God? If you do, then multiple man-made versions of God's Word are unacceptable.
The very same is expressed multiple times in the Bible. Not to add to or remove from the sacred texts; and that such is a damnable offence.
But that's exactly what happened with the bible. Paul who wrote nearly half of the New Testament was not a prophet of God and was in no way fit for such an undertaking. He was inspired all right, but not from the Creator.
Did not blessed Mohammed hear from an angel of the LORD, and recite to His brother; and His brother actually wrote the words recited to him? Correct me please, if I am wrong. I do not deny that I may be wrong on this issue.
The angel Gabriel (Upon Him Be Peace) came to him with revelation. "Read/Recite in the Name of Your Lord..." (al-Alaq: 1)
What needs to be understood is that the word "Quran" is Arabic for "Recitation". The Prophet Muhammed (Peace Be Upon Him) received revelation from the Angel Gabriel and memorized it verbatim and then taught it to his companions (May Allah Be Pleased with Them All) verbatim. They then passed it on until it came to us unchanged word for word letter for letter. When we pray in the mosque, if the Imam recites a letter wrong by accident, someone behind him will correct him and recite the right thing. The Imam, with no embarrassment will recite it correctly. If anyone were to try and change it, they would be found out immediately. The Quran is the Quran. It is the same everywhere in the world to the letter.
You wouldn't use the original words because they are Greek and you do not understand Greek, so recitation looses much effect and becomes mere recitation of symbols that have no meaning to the reciter due to them not even knowing what they are reciting.
Our Lord GOD knows the very content of our hearts. How does self know the content of their heart is right with the Word or Spirit or direction of GOD if they do not understand but only recite from practiced habbit?
To be clear friend; not all Christian's conflate the temporal with the Eternal. Jesus died on the cross. The Spirit that filled Him did not.
The Holy Temple of GOD was indeed destroyed; the substance of that Holy blessed vessel was not and cannot ever be destroyed as such is the very Spirit of GOD.
peace
Much like the Quran being in Arabic...and most people do not understand Arabic...but despite of that the Imaam still taking the effort to recite the verse in Arabic?
But somehow in Islam this recitation do not lose any effect.
on the contrary...by doing that one assures that both original verse and explanation are easily accessible to people.
About Jesus as...we Muslims have great respect for him...He was a very important prophet. we do believe him as the messanger of God, we do believe that his mother Maria ra was a virgin and that Jesus as was born without a father.
However, we do not believe that Jesus as was the son of God. Jesus as was created without a father, just like Adam as was created without a father and mother.
Jesus as not having a father is one of Gods miracles. this does not automatically make God the father of Jesus as....He was the son of God, yes...but in the way we all are sons and daughters of God. We are Gods creation.
And most certainly, Jesus as did NOT die on the cross. This is also one of the miracles Christians do not see. The person who got punished to death was NOT Jesus as...It was Judas.
I have been on this forum for a few years now, and when any of you guys post something from the Qur'an; I try and learn something from it. I have found it to be an interesting addition to Christian scriptures.
I have heard some Muslims say that not all of the Bible is corrupt, but they don't seem to mention any details. Unless you can discern where any truth or corruption occur, you may be better off just studying the Qur'an.
In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
If you say some of the Bible is authentic, can you say what parts are please?
In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric
Hello Eric...I am sorry to talk like this about your religion...and I do feel bad about this...But still...if we want to discuss about this, then we need to be honoust about it. What Abuasiyah means by this is that at least some of the basic message IS still preserved, even with the corrupted Bible. Jesus as was all about tolerance...and to forgive...even your enemies...no matter what they did to you...and of course lots of other messages like be kind to your neighbour...do not steal or lie...
much of the stories about the life of earlier prophets are pretty much the same as in the Quran...We just cannot rely on which part of the Bible is true and which part not.
I do make dua for you to find the truth eventually Eric.
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