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    Ya'akov's Avatar
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    Clear Evidence of Zionism in the Qu'ran

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    Salam;

    In the name of the Most Forgiving, Often Forgiving One,

    I'd like to see any Muslim or non-Muslim here try to debate the proof I provided below and provide evidence to the contrary, if any, so that the truth can be established.

    Here is the website with a full copy of Quran, with each verse being rendered in at least 3 traditional English translations (by Yusufali, Picktal and Shakir):
    http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp

    Sura 017.104
    YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
    PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.
    SHAKIR: And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.


    Muslims will say that this particular verse talks about how the Jews refused to enter the Holy Land when they came out of Egypt, out of fear of the Philistines living there, and that Allah is talking here about them wandering in desert 40 years and then entering the Holy Land.

    But CAREFUL analysis of this verse, and 2 other verses, reveals that it CANNOT LOGICALLY be God talking about that event which happened 3000 years ago.

    Firstly, the verse says "out of various nations". The only time Jews were gathered out of various nations back to Israel is the 20th century. That already tells us that the verse couldn't be talking about Jews re-entering Holy Land after 40 years of desert wandering, since back then they were still one group, and not taken out of various nations.

    Secondly, the verse says "after the second warning comes to pass", and in another translation, "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass". What exactly does that mean?

    For that, we have to look at a few other earlier ayahs (verses) in the same Sura (chapter) - Sura 17...none of them are taken out of context, I made sure:

    017.004
    YUSUFALI: And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!
    PICKTHAL: And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.
    SHAKIR: And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence.


    KEYWORD: TWICE!

    Next ayah:

    017.005
    YUSUFALI: When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
    PICKTHAL: So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.
    SHAKIR: So when the promise for the first of the two came, We sent over you Our servants, of mighty prowess, so they went to and fro among the houses, and it was a promise to be accomplished.


    THIS VERSE TALKS ABOUT THE BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY, NOT the destruction of the Northern Kingdom of Israel by Assyrians. How do we know that? Because it says in the next verse....

    017.006
    YUSUFALI: Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
    PICKTHAL: Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery.
    SHAKIR: Then We gave you back the turn to prevail against them, and aided you with wealth and children and made you a numerous band.


    Obviously, this could only be talking about Babylonian Captivity, because the 10 Lost Tribes of Israel were taken captive by Assyria, never returned, and are still lost.

    Now, here is the key verse that solves the whole riddle of what exactly the verse 17:104 is talking about...

    017.007
    YUSUFALI: If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.
    PICKTHAL: (Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). So, when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting.
    SHAKIR: If you do good, you will do good for your own souls, and if you do evil, it shall be for them. So when the second promise came (We raised another people) that they may bring you to grief and that they may enter the mosque as they entered it the first time, and that they might destroy whatever they gained ascendancy over with utter destruction.


    KEYWROD: SECOND WARNINGS

    IT OBVIOUSLY TALKS ABOUT THE ROMAN DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND THE RESULTING SCATTERING OF JEWS. It could not be talking about any other event, because the next verse shows us that logically this verse could only be talking about the LAST destruction of Jerusalem.

    Next verse:

    017.008
    YUSUFALI: It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).
    PICKTHAL: It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.
    SHAKIR: It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you again return (to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.


    Since in that chapter, there are no more verses that talk about destructive events surrounding Judah, it is obvious that the second (and last) warning was the Roman destruction of Judah.

    How does this all prove that in verse 104, Allah was talking about the future gathering of Jews into Israel, and not a past event that happened right after the 40 year desert wandering?

    Very logically.

    1. Jews weren't gathered as a "mingled group" or "out of various nations" when they entered Holy Land after wandering 40 years in the desert. So Muslims trying to use that argument are in a dead-end.
    2. Allah is clearly giving us a clue in the other verses, regarding what exactly the phrase "after the second warnings come to pass" or "when the final promise comes to pass" in verse 104, means. FIRST warning was Babylonian Captivity. SECOND warning was Roman captivity.
    3. Allah has made it clear to a discerning reader of the Quran, that the Second Warning was Roman destruction, and that the Second Warning CONTINUED UP UNTIL the gathering of Jews back to Israel almost 2000 years later.

    So the Second Warning, was in effect beginning from the Roman destruction of Israel, enduring up until the establishment of Israel in the 20th century, which Allah revealed to Muhammad in the verse 104:

    017.104
    YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
    PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.
    SHAKIR: And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.


    Note that due to the complexities of the Old Arabic language, there are differences in translation of that complex prophetic verse. We could only deduce which translation is right by:

    1) history, which is undeniable, and which shows the return of Jews as a "mingled group", "out of various nations" back to Holy Land, and which shows Israel withstanding and defeating a multitude of Arabic nations several times in its short history, which could only be by the decree of God;

    2) logic, looking at the other verses and then at this one, it could only make sense if it was prophesying the future return of Jews back to Israel.

    3) confirmation in both the Old, and the New, Testaments. Both the Hebrew Bible and the Gospels prophesy a future return of Jews back to Israel. Since Quran claims to only confirm what has been previously revealed, and to correct supposed "man-made corruptions" in the previous two revelations, it makes sense that Quran would confirm what is agreed between both Judaism and Christianity (a rare circumstance).

    Shalom!

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    anatolian's Avatar
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    Re: Clear Evidence of Zionism in the Qu'ran

    Jews were gathered from several nations before the 20th century as well. From Asyria and Babel. This is from the OT. And if the Ayah refers to this gathering that took place in the 20th century still it doesnt mean anything about Zionism. As far as I understand the Ayah doesnt say Allah would do it for Jews as a favour.
    Last edited by anatolian; 1 Week Ago at 08:13 AM.
    Clear Evidence of Zionism in the Qu'ran

    “Either seem as you are or be as you seem” Rumi

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    Futuwwa's Avatar
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    Re: Clear Evidence of Zionism in the Qu'ran

    Since 17:104 is the linchpin of your argument, let's look at its context:

    YUSUF ALI
    [017:101] To Moses We did give Nine Clear Sings: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!
    [017:102] Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"
    [017:103] So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him.
    [017:104] And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.

    PICKTHALL

    [017:101] And verily We gave unto Moses nine tokens, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty). Do but ask the Children of Israel how he came unto them, then Pharaoh said unto him: Lo! I deem thee one bewitched, O Moses.
    [017:102] He said: In truth thou knowest that none sent down these (portents) save the Lord of the heavens and the earth as proofs, and lo! (for my part) I deem thee lost, O Pharaoh.
    [017:103] And he wished to scare them from the land, but We drowned him and those with him, all together.
    [017:104] And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.

    SHAKIR

    [017:101] And certainly We gave Musa nine clear signs; so ask the children of Israel. When he came to them, Firon said to him: Most surely I deem you, O Musa, to be a man deprived of reason.
    [017:102] He said: Truly you know that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has sent down these as clear proof and most surely I believe you, O Firon, to be given over to perdition.
    [017:103] So he desired to destroy them out of the earth, but We drowned him and those with him all together;
    [017:104] And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.

    This is directly after the interaction between Moses and Pharaoh, so God telling the Jews to go dwell in the land clearly refers to the initial migration from Egypt to Palestine. As for the last part, if Yusuf Ali is right and it's past tense, that outright rules out the possibility of it referring to a future event. Pickthall and Shakir, on the other hand, talk about a future gathering-together, but specifically so in the context of the Day of Judgment. It doesn't say when, where, or whether it will be an actual human migration, let alone anything about statehood. The verse is arguably consistent with the creation of modern Israel, but it could just as well refer to a future event that has not yet happened.

    There is nothing miraculous about the creation of modern Israel that requires divine intervention to explain. Countries have been created through migration and invasion throughout history. Nor is there anything about Israel's military victories that can't be explained by plain mundane military science. Military history is full of cases where a side that has been far more outmatched on paper has won nevertheless. Including the victories by the Prophet Muhammed and the early Islamic community against Pagan Arabs, Persians and Byzantines alike.


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