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  1. #1
    Array Enochian's Avatar
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    Exclamation Did Jesus Exist? (OP)


    Remember the Gospels and Acts were composed AFTER Paul's letters.
    Gerd Lüdemann says:
    "Not once does Paul refer to Jesus as a teacher, to his words as teaching, or to [any] Christians as disciples."
    and
    "Moreover, when Paul himself summarizes the content of his missionary preaching in Corinth (1 Cor. 2.1-2; 15.3-5), there is no hint that a narration of Jesus’ earthly life or a report of his earthly teachings was an essential part of it. . . . In the letter to the Romans, which cannot presuppose the apostle’s missionary preaching and in which he attempts to summarize its main points, we find not a single direct citation of Jesus’ teaching."
    According to Richard Carrier, Paul's letters indicate that Cephas etc. only knew Jesus from DREAMS, based on the Old Testament scriptures.
    1 Cor. 15.:
    "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."
    The Scriptures Paul is referring to here are:
    Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 gives the Greek name of Jesus, describing him as confronting Satan, being crowned king in heaven, called "the man named 'Rising'" who is said to rise from his place below, building up God’s house, given supreme authority over God’s domain and ending all sins in a single day.
    Daniel 9 describes a messiah dying before the end of the world.
    Isaiah 53 describes the cleansing of the world's sins by the death of a servant.
    The concept of crucifixion is from Psalm 22.16, Isaiah 53:5 and Zechariah 12:10.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Jesus is the same Rising Jesus from the LXX version of Zechariah.

    Paul only ever indicates 2 sources of Jesus info, Scripture (the LXX) and dream teachings.

    Paul never indicates Cephas or anyone else was a disciple of Jesus. Apostle doesn't mean disciple.

    Philo independently confirms Jesus is the same Jesus from the LXX version of Zechariah:
    https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13541

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enochian View Post
    If Islam doesn't understand the Gospels are fiction, thats a huge red flag to me.
    again...the gospels as we know today is corrupt and cannot be trusted. to which degree it is false we do not know and honestly....we do not care because the Quraan replaced it.
    to say that all of the Gospels are fiction would therefore be wrong.
    if that is a red flag to you...then maybe you should fgure out why your red flag got triggered in the first place...because İ still dont know what you try to achieve with this thread.

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Implausible theory even from atheistic point of view. He was describing recent events, with many living witnesses around. Why would anyone take him serious and copy some fiction book which was quite expensive at the time.
    What I found in wikipedia: In the beginning Paul was persecuting early disciples of Jesus. Certainly there were something going out there. Whatever were reasons of his conversion, but perhaps his background influenced him.

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Greetings,

    Since this is in the clarifications about Islam section and you are asking us whether we believe that Jesus, peace be upon him existed, the answer to that is a simple yes.

    It is an article of faith to believe in and respect Jesus, peace be upon him. We believe in him as he was; one of the most noble and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. Allah gave him a scripture called the Injeel. We do not reject him (as Jews do), nor do we deify him (as Christians do). Neither he, nor any other messenger, was divine, ever claimed divinity, or to be God's son. We believe he was born miraculously of the noble virgin Mary (peace be on her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified. He will return to earth near the end of time.
    Did Jesus Exist?


    Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa
    Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").


    This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)


    Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)

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    Enochian's Avatar
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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    again...the gospels as we know today is corrupt and cannot be trusted. to which degree it is false we do not know and honestly....we do not care because the Quraan replaced it.
    to say that all of the Gospels are fiction would therefore be wrong.
    if that is a red flag to you...then maybe you should fgure out why your red flag got triggered in the first place...because İ still dont know what you try to achieve with this thread.
    It's interesting you cannot admit the Gospels are fiction.

    Because that would undermine Islam as well.

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
    Implausible theory even from atheistic point of view. He was describing recent events, with many living witnesses around. Why would anyone take him serious and copy some fiction book which was quite expensive at the time.
    What I found in wikipedia: In the beginning Paul was persecuting early disciples of Jesus. Certainly there were something going out there. Whatever were reasons of his conversion, but perhaps his background influenced him.

    Jesus is the same Rising Jesus from the LXX version of Zechariah.

    Paul only ever indicates 2 sources of Jesus info, Scripture (the LXX) and dream teachings.

    Paul never indicates Cephas or anyone else was a disciple of Jesus. Apostle doesn't mean disciple.

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enochian View Post
    It's interesting you cannot admit the Gospels are fiction.

    Because that would undermine Islam as well.
    right...that would totally ruin İslam...İ don't know...based on what...but still it would totally destroy İslam...

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    right...that would totally ruin İslam...İ don't know...based on what...but still it would totally destroy İslam...
    I disagree.
    Even if there will be 100% proof that Paul made a fiction book: It doesn't prove that there were no prophet Isa at that or another time.

    Even if there will appear 100% proof that there were no any remotely similar events, it will only make reconsider purpose of that part of Quran. I really don't care about exact events of the past.
    Quran is not some mere chronicle or dumb instruction.
    It is a Guidance, it says what has to be said.
    Even if something understood wrong by some people, it was designed so.
    Allah knows best.

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    eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    right...that would totally ruin İslam...İ don't know...based on what...but still it would totally destroy İslam...
    Perhaps you should be more clear you are being sarcastic
    | Likes Physicist, Ümit liked this post
    Did Jesus Exist?

    The sunnah is like the ark of Noah, whoever embarks upon it reaches salvation and whoever refuses is drowned.~ Imam Malik (may Allah have mercy on him)

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    @Enochian let us conclude this thread now, by answering my one simple question on your side.
    Do you believe that Bible is word by word correct and authentic as to be Divine (Paul, Mathew, John etc)? OR do you believe that some of it is correct and some of it is being corrupted by later priests etc? Or do you believe that only Paul is correct as compared to Mathew and John etc ? I will wait for your answer. Based on your answer in any case, I will logically invite you to accept Islam for your salvation (in this world and hereafter).

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    Perhaps you should be more clear you are being sarcastic
    yes İ'm sorry

    @Physicist
    İ was being sarcastic

    i mean...İ thought you guys knew me well enough to understand İ was being sarcastic. i've been around for a while here on islamicboard. And İ am a big defender of islam and science. So i didn't think that you would interpret my post any other way than being than being sarcastic
    Last edited by Ümit; 06-18-2019 at 10:01 PM.

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    right...that would totally ruin İslam...İ don't know...based on what...but still it would totally destroy İslam...

    Islam claims the Gospels were originally true.

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    yes İ'm sorry

    @Physicist
    İ was being sarcastic

    i mean...İ thought you guys knew me well enough to understand İ was being sarcastic. i've been around for a while here on islamicboard. And İ am a big defender of islam and science. So i didn't think that you would interpret my post any other way than being than being sarcastic
    I understood bro but enochian might not have

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Enochian View Post
    Islam claims the Gospels were originally true.
    No. Islam teaches the gospel that was revealed to jesus alayhis Salam is true

    Is the 4 gospels in the modern day bible the gospel of jesus no. They may have some remnants of the message revealed to jesus but have undergone so many alterations and distortions that what jesus alayhis Salam taught is barely recognizable

    Islam is a call to return to the worship of Allah (which is the Arabic name for God) alone without partners which is what jesus taught. The teachings of Paul where a prophet is deified and the law of the prophet's abandoned we reject this
    Did Jesus Exist?

    The sunnah is like the ark of Noah, whoever embarks upon it reaches salvation and whoever refuses is drowned.~ Imam Malik (may Allah have mercy on him)

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    yes İ'm sorry

    @Physicist
    İ was being sarcastic

    i mean...İ thought you guys knew me well enough to understand İ was being sarcastic. i've been around for a while here on islamicboard. And İ am a big defender of islam and science. So i didn't think that you would interpret my post any other way than being than being sarcastic
    It just reminded me reaction of one muslim-born friend, when I told him my idea how we will be resurrected.
    He exclaimed: "But that would mean that Allah doesn't exist!"

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    @Enochian here is a short spoken word on the Islamic concept of jesus. inshaAllah (God willing) you'll find it beneficial

    Did Jesus Exist?

    The sunnah is like the ark of Noah, whoever embarks upon it reaches salvation and whoever refuses is drowned.~ Imam Malik (may Allah have mercy on him)

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    Enochian's Avatar
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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    No. Islam teaches the gospel that was revealed to jesus alayhis Salam is true

    Is the 4 gospels in the modern day bible the gospel of jesus no. They may have some remnants of the message revealed to jesus but have undergone so many alterations and distortions that what jesus alayhis Salam taught is barely recognizable

    Islam is a call to return to the worship of Allah (which is the Arabic name for God) alone without partners which is what jesus taught. The teachings of Paul where a prophet is deified and the law of the prophet's abandoned we reject this

    Islam claims Jesus performed miracles.

    Islam claims Jesus had a mother called Mary.

    These things are from the Gospels.

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enochian View Post
    Islam claims Jesus performed miracles.

    Islam claims Jesus had a mother called Mary.

    These things are from the Gospels.
    Islam is an Arabic word meaning submission to the will of Allah. A Muslim is one who submits.
    All the true prophets taught Islam to worship Allah alone and follow the messengers

    As jesus alayhis Salam was a true prophet of Allah he taught Islam to worship Allah alone and to obey the messengers and even though his teachings have become so distorted by the Jews and Christians you can still see remnants of his message for example in the bible he is alleged to have said hear oh Israel the lord you God is one

    Let me ask you a question if Allah sent jesus alayhis Salam as a prophet and subsequently generations took him falsely as an idol contradicting the very core of his message there is no God but Allah. Would not Allah send another prophet to clarify for mankind what his religion is

    Prophet Muhammad sallaho alayhi wa sallam is that prophet. He couldn't read or write and the bible hadn't even been translated into Arabic at his time so dont claim Islam copied the gospels

    Basically for a Muslim the teachings of the bible fall into three main categories

    1. That which we know is true because it conforms to the revelation revealed to prophet Muhammad sallaho alayhi wa sallam. The miracles of jesus is one example
    2. That which we know to be false because we have been taught in the Quran or sunnah that its false. The attribution of deification to jesus is an example of this
    3. The third category is things we dont know if they are true or false as nothing has been mentioned in the Quran and the sunnah of prophet Muhammad sallaho alayhi wa sallam. These things we neither confirm nor deny

    A Muslim believes in the miracles of jesus not because of what was mentioned in the bible but because what we have been taught by prophet Muhammad sallaho alayhi wa sallam
    | Likes Ümit, Grandad liked this post
    Did Jesus Exist?

    The sunnah is like the ark of Noah, whoever embarks upon it reaches salvation and whoever refuses is drowned.~ Imam Malik (may Allah have mercy on him)

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    Enochian's Avatar
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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    As jesus alayhis Salam was a true prophet of Allah he taught Islam to worship Allah alone and to obey the messengers and even though his teachings have become so distorted by the Jews and Christians you can still see remnants of his message for example in the bible he is alleged to have said hear oh Israel the lord you God is one

    This is not a teaching of Jesus.

    Like everything else in the Gospels, this is plagiarized from the LXX.

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    You write:

    ‘Paul never indicates Cephas or anyone else was a disciple of Jesus. Apostle doesn't mean disciple.’

    Indeed, it does not.

    ‘Disciple’ is a Biblical term meaning learner or pupil. The word ‘apostle’ defines one who has been given a specific mission or purpose (that – in Greek – is the literal meaning of the word ‘apostle’) .

    Paul does not refer to Cephas, and the others, as ‘disciples’ for the simple reason that by the time he met them they were no longer pupils, but leaders – teachers.

    ‘Then God, who had specially chosen me while I was still in my mother's womb, called me through his grace and chose to reveal his Son in me, so that I might preach the Good News about him to the pagans. I did not stop to discuss this with any human being, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were already apostles before me, but I went off to Arabia at once and later went straight back from there to Damascus. Even when after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him for fifteen days, I did not see any of the other apostles; I only saw James, the brother of the Lord.’ (Galatians 1: 15-19).

    You will see that Paul refers to several ‘apostles’ of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām); naming both Cephas (Peter) and James, the ‘brother of the Lord’.

    He goes on:

    ‘I was so determined to safeguard for you the true meaning of the Good News, that I refused even out of deference to yield to such people for one moment. As a result, these people who are acknowledged leaders - not that their importance matters to me, since God has no favorites - these leaders, as I say, had nothing to add to the Good News as I preach it. On the contrary, they recognized that I had been commissioned to preach the Good News to the uncircumcised just as Peter had been commissioned to preach it to the circumcised. The same person whose action had made Peter the apostle of the circumcised had given me a similar mission to the pagans. So, James, Cephas and John, these leaders, these pillars, shook hands with Barnabas and me as a sign of partnership: we were to go to the pagans and them to the circumcised.’ (Galatians 2: 5-9).

    In these verses Paul reaffirms Peter as an apostle and (by virtue of his status as apostle) names him as one of the leaders of the community in Jerusalem. A ‘disciple’ (‘pupil’) no longer.

    Paul also refers to James and John as ‘leaders’ (and, by implication, as fellow apostles).

    Paul writes: ‘The same person whose action had made Peter the apostle of the circumcised had given me a similar mission to the pagans.’ This person, of course, is Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām).

    It is quite clear that Paul recognises the historical existence of Yeshua; and the fact that he (Yeshua) was the one who had commissioned the apostles to convey his message to others; who had given them a specific mission.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You write that the Shema is ‘not a teaching of Jesus (but) ‘plagiarized from the LXX.’

    ‘Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Eḥad’ – ‘Hear, O Israel: the LORD is our God, the LORD is One.’

    This is the central creed of Judaism; found in the Taurat; the Holy Book given to Moses by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). It pre-dates the Septuagint, and would have been recited by Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) every day of his life. He was, after all, a devout Jew.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You write: ‘ Islam claims Jesus performed miracles. Islam claims Jesus had a mother called Mary. These things are from the Gospels.’

    These things are also from the Qur’an; a confirmation of that which is stated in the Gospels. The Qur’an does not – after all – teach that everything in the Gospels is false.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You write: 'Islam claims that the Gospels were originally true'.

    It does not.

    The Arabic word ‘ʾInjīl’ is translated ‘Gospel’ by those writing in English. However, in the Qur’an the word is always in the singular, and is never used to describe the four Gospels of the New Testament.

    There is no doubt that the New Testament Gospels were written after the lifetime of Yeshua. Therefore they cannot be the ‘ʾInjīl’ mentioned in the Qur’an. The Exalted says: ‘We sent Yeshua, son of Mary, in their footsteps, to confirm the Torah that had been sent before him: We gave him the Gospel (ʾInjīl) with guidance, light, and confirmation of the Torah already revealed - a guide and lesson for those who take heed of Allāh.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 46).

    It is quite clear from this verse that Yeshua was given the ʾInjīl (Gospel) complete; how else could it have been ‘a guidance, light and confirmation of the Torah’?

    First example of Gospel falsehood:

    The King James Bible (including the American Version); the King James 2000 Bible; the Jubilee Bible 2000; the Douay-Rheims Bible; the Webster’s Bible Translation; and the Young’s Literal Translation contain what is known as the ‘Comma Ioanneum’. This is shown below in capitals:

    ‘For there are three that bear record IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. AND THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR WITNESS IN EARTH, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.’

    Anthony and Richard Hanson write: ‘It (the ‘Comma Ioanneum’) was added by some enterprising person or persons in the ancient Church who felt that the New Testament was sadly deficient in direct witness to the kind of doctrine of the Trinity which he favoured and who determined to remedy that defect . . . It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament.’ (‘Reasonable Belief: A Survey of the Christian Faith; page 171).

    The ‘Comma Ioanneum’ is spurious, and yet for centuries the Church insisted it be included in 1 John 5: 7-8; on the grounds that it had become official Church teaching.

    In 1927, the Holy Office (Guardian of Catholic orthodoxy; and once named the ‘Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition’) declared: ‘After careful examination of the whole circumstances that its genuineness could be denied’ (Ludwig Ott: ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma’, page 56).

    This is why one of my Bibles (the Jerusalem Bible - a Catholic version) reads: ‘So there are three witnesses, the Spirit, water and blood; and the three of them coincide.’ Another Catholic version of mine – the Douay-Rheims – does contain the ‘Comma Ioanneum’. So which of these two is the uncorrupted: the former or the latter?

    Second example:

    The story of the woman caught in adultery (found in John 7) has been a source of much controversy for decades. Is it authentic; or is in a later insertion into the text?

    The King James Version (based on the Textus Receptus) includes the ‘pericope adulterae’ as an original part of the Gospel. On the other hand, more modern translations – such and as the ESV, NIV, RV; NRVS; and GNB – include the ‘pericope adulterae’, but bracket it as not original; while others print it in a smaller font (TNIV), or place it at the end of the gospel (REB), all with notes of explanation. This is because the story is not found in the earliest Greek manuscripts.

    It certainly seems as if, somewhere along the way, a scribe added this story into John’s Gospel in a place he thought it would fit well. Most likely, the story had been circulating for a long time – as an oral tradition – and a scribe (or scribes) felt that, since it was already accepted as truth by consensus, it was appropriate to include it in the text of Scripture. The problem is that truth is not determined by consensus (witness the ‘Comma Ioanneum’ debacle).

    The omission of the ‘pericope adulterae’ from the early manuscripts has been explained as an attempt by early church leaders to prevent scandal; to prevent the impression that adultery is acceptable (for Yeshua is said to have forgiven the woman). Concerned for the moral welfare of their flock these leaders are said to have ordered the story’s removal. If this is true, then they tampered with the Gospel!

    The fact remains that the ‘pericope adulterae’ is not supported by early manuscript evidence (and some might say, the best manuscript evidence); there is, therefore, serious doubt as to whether it should be included in the Bible at all.

    Third example:

    Mark 16: 9-20: ‘Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. She went and told those who had been with him, as they mourned and wept. But when they heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they would not believe it. After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country. And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them. Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.” So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.’

    Some manuscripts end the book with 16:8; others include verses 9-20 immediately after verse 8. At least one manuscript inserts additional material after verse 14; some manuscripts include, after verse 8, the following: ‘But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this, Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.’ These manuscripts then continue with verses 9-20.

    Conclusion:

    An acknowledged spurious text – justifying the belief in a Trinitarian deity – and still present in at least six current versions of the Bible; the insertion of the ‘pericope adulterae’; and the changes to Mark.

    Perhaps now you can understand why scholars (both Christian and Muslim) speak of a corrupted New Testament!
    Last edited by Grandad; 06-19-2019 at 09:26 PM.
    Did Jesus Exist?

    'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.' (Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)

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    Enochian's Avatar
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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Paul never indicates anyone ever met Jesus.


    And again, the Gospels are fiction.


    It doesn't matter if they are corrupted.

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    Re: Did Jesus Exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enochian View Post
    Paul never indicates anyone ever met Jesus.
    Jesus pbuh definitely existed, Paul isnt the only one who writes about him - Josephus does as well and the Talmud. There are also other roman sources. Him being God/part of a trinity isnt exactly a historical undertaking, its also a big difference between Islam and Christianity. Not the historicity of Jesus pbuh.


    Quote Originally Posted by Enochian View Post
    And again, the Gospels are fiction.
    The Gospels are not fiction, instead they are written about a man that inspired the followers in Roman Palestine.
    Did Jesus Exist?

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim


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