Fight only those who fight you

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

That is exactly what I've been doing in this Forum.
The Quran is the only link Muslims have to God. If the Quran is false then Islam is false.

The Quraan is not our lunk to God...it is our guidance. if the Quraan was not there...we would not lose our link to God...if that was true...then how were the people linked to God long before the Quraan was revealed? doesn't make sense does it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

But the Quran is not the beginning of God communicating to Humans, there have been hundreds if not thousands of so called Gods throughout history.

indeed the Quraan is not the beginning og God communicating to humans. He communicated throughout the time with us all the time. He has send us prophets, books and scriptures to guide us back to the real path everytime we wandered off...and after that prophet delivered his message...we wandered off again...creating our new religion...we did that with Moses as and created Jewism...we did that with Jesus as creating Christianity...so every religion other than Islam is a human made version of the true religion....so no thousands of other God...just one God communicating to us through centuries.
that is also why the prophets and their stories in Islaam Christianity and Jewism are very similar...they are not bad copies from each other...but real events that happened and mentioned differently in these books.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

Today there are only a few who have survived time.
The most popular is the god of the Christians, Jews and Muslims.
Is this god the same God?

yes it is the same God...however the way christians and jews see God is false...only the Islamic description of God is correct.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

Not all agree with this.
The scriptures have similarities but also have huge differences in describing this God.
I find that the Christian God is much closer to people than the Muslim's Allah.
What do I mean by this?
Every Christian who accepts Jesus Christ as their God receives the Holy Spirit in them.

and the people who lived before Jesus were just unlucky right?
in Islaam everyone who has faith in God with the weight of an atom is considered a muslim and his final destiny will be heaven.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

That means that every good Christian has part of God in them.
The Holy Spirit protects you from the sinful nature of man.
And that's as far as I'm going to describe Christianity.

1 define 'good christian'
2 how about bad christians? do they also have part of God in them? why are they not protected from sinful nature of men?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

The point is that I don't see in Islam anything that can get you closer to God while on earth.

It is all blind faith and that makes it harder to find signs that point you in the right direction.
In a few words.
Why should I believe in Islam?
Because is the only religion that makes sense.
Says who?
The Quran and prophet Muhammad.
How do I know Allah is the real God?
How do you think the universe was created?
How do you think man was created?

You see is all a game of logic and logic traps, that seems to be the only way or at least the most popular way to prove god.
I would prefer to get some supernatural signs of the presence of God if that is somehow possible.

you are not getting supernatural signs from God. you have to settle with these signs.

again...you have no reliable source for this...but then a book pops up...with no known human author...the one that delivers it to us is illiterate so he cannot be the author of it. but it is written in high Arabic. at the same time it is very poetic...truely an art piece.
isn't that a clear sign of God?

can you give a reasonal explanation how that book got to us? who could have been written it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

The Quraan is not our link to God...it is our guidance. if the Quraan was not there...we would not lose our link to God...if that was true...then how were the people linked to God long before the Quraan was revealed? doesn't make sense does it?

Let me clarify what I meant. The Quran is the only link Muslims have to Islam and thru Islam to Allah.
If the Quran didn't exist then there would be no Islam and the people would only believe in the God of the new and old testament (jews and Christians). There would be no Muslims.

The people who believed in God before the Quran were not Muslims. Without the Quran they would still believe in God but then we would have no Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

.so every religion other than Islam is a human made version of the true religion....

That is only according to Muslims and not all of them.
You kind of contradict yourself there. You believe in all the prophets before Muhammad but you believe the religions that they started are now considered man made religions according to Muslims?
How ridiculous is that?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

so no thousands of other God...just one God communicating to us through centuries.

Here is a list of Gods thru history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...idered_deities

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

yes it is the same God...however the way christians and jews see God is false...only the Islamic description of God is correct.

That is only according to Islam and Islam is not even the most popular religion.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

1 define 'good christian'
2 how about bad christians? do they also have part of God in them? why are they not protected from sinful nature of men?

A good Christian in my personal opinion is a Christian who follows the religion according to the scriptures.
There are millions of Christians who were born into the religion but they don't practice it.
They are not protected because they don't practice the religion as they should.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

can you give a reasonable explanation how that book got to us? who could have been written it?

I have an explanation but out of respect I prefer to simply say that it was conceived and written by men.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

Let me clarify what I meant. The Quran is the only link Muslims have to Islam and thru Islam to Allah.
If the Quran didn't exist then there would be no Islam and the people would only believe in the God of the new and old testament (jews and Christians). There would be no Muslims.

The people who believed in God before the Quran were not Muslims. Without the Quran they would still believe in God but then we would have no Islam.

that is were you are mistaken buddy...if you ask a muslim since when he is a muslim...the answer you will get is NOT "since birth"...but rather "since the Qalu Bala covenant".
the Qalu Bala covenant took place long before Adam as walked the Earth.
this means that Islaam was always there. it didn't start with the coming of Mohammed as...but it always existed...it was the one and only true religion of all time.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

That is only according to Muslims and not all of them.
You kind of contradict yourself there. You believe in all the prophets before Muhammad but you believe the religions that they started are now considered man made religions according to Muslims?
How ridiculous is that?

yes that is quite ridiculous...however it is not true. as I said Islaam was always there...so every single prophet that was send to Earth came to teach Islaam...every prophet was muslim...the first followers of these prophets also were muslims...later on innovations were added and they started to wander off and voila...a new man made religion was born.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

Here is a list of Gods thru history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...idered_deities


That is only according to Islam and Islam is not even the most popular religion.


A good Christian in my personal opinion is a Christian who follows the religion according to the scriptures.
There are millions of Christians who were born into the religion but they don't practice it.
They are not protected because they don't practice the religion as they should.

so about priests that sexually violate children...do they not practice religion as they should? why are they not protected from sinning? or is sexual violation not considered as sinning in christianity?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

I have an explanation but out of respect I prefer to simply say that it was conceived and written by men.

that is a claim based on nothing. please provide evidences or at least clues to back up your claim...without that backing up this claim is worthless.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

so about priests that sexually violate children...do they not practice religion as they should? why are they not protected from sinning? or is sexual violation not considered as sinning in christianity?

I only have a little time to answer one of your questions today.

Let me explain it to you one more time.Those who follow the religion properly receive the Holy Spirit in them and are protected by god. (God knows when you are ready to receive the Holy Spirit)
You asked:

do they not practice religion as they should?

Short answer: Obviously not.
A priest who rapes children is committing a major sin (not to mention a crime) and therefore is not following the religion properly and therefore doesn't have the Holy Spirit in him and therefore is not protected by God.
Should I repeat this one more time? Is it clear enough now?

Note: As you should know by now I'm an agnostic which means I don't believe in God, Jesus as God, The Holy Spirit, Allah, the white winged horse, angel Gabriel and all the rest that is the product of human imagination.
Unless proven real is all fake to me.
Being an agnostic doesn't mean that I don't know how the Christian world works and what Christians believe since I was one of them once.
So you have to keep in mind that when I talk about Christianity I am never implying I believe what Christians believe.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

I only have a little time to answer one of your questions today.

Let me explain it to you one more time.Those who follow the religion properly receive the Holy Spirit in them and are protected by god. (God knows when you are ready to receive the Holy Spirit)
You asked:
Short answer: Obviously not.
A priest who rapes children is committing a major sin (not to mention a crime) and therefore is not following the religion properly and therefore doesn't have the Holy Spirit in him and therefore is not protected by God.
Should I repeat this one more time? Is it clear enough now?

Note: As you should know by now I'm an agnostic which means I don't believe in God, Jesus as God, The Holy Spirit, Allah, the white winged horse, angel Gabriel and all the rest that is the product of human imagination.
Unless proven real is all fake to me.
Being an agnostic doesn't mean that I don't know how the Christian world works and what Christians believe since I was one of them once.
So you have to keep in mind that when I talk about Christianity I am never implying I believe what Christians believe.

do not lose your patience please...no need to get angry...we are not getting angry at you for asking similar questions...

but ok...that is an answer I can accept...but how about the people that lived before Jesus...have they lived for nothing? what about all the good deeds a good person has done who lived before Jesus?
and could people sin in the time before Jesus?

ow and please do not forget to react on the other points in my last post.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

but ok...that is an answer I can accept...but how about the people that lived before Jesus...have they lived for nothing? what about all the good deeds a good person has done who lived before Jesus?
and could people sin in the time before Jesus?

According to Christian belief Jesus was always part of God and so was the Holy Spirit so nothing really changed in terms of the commandments, the purpose of life and the after life in either heaven or hell.
What changed according to Christian belief is that prior to Jesus coming to earth humans were born sinners because of Adam's disobeying god's instructions. Jesus came to destroy the devil's work that followed Adam's mistake.
But the basic rules have always been pretty much the same, be good and go to heaven be bad and end up in hell.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

if you ask a muslim since when he is a muslim...the answer you will get is NOT "since birth"...but rather "since the Qalu Bala covenant".
the Qalu Bala covenant took place long before Adam as walked the Earth.
this means that Islaam was always there. it didn't start with the coming of Mohammed as...but it always existed...it was the one and only true religion of all time.

In order for us to understand each other we have to agree on certain basic definitions:
Islam = The religion that originated from the revelations received by prophet Muhammad.
Muslim = The people who believe in Islam

https://questionsonislam.com/article...e-been-muslims

Qalu Bala covenant means that Allah created the spirits of all people before He created the world and the human beings in it.

Following your line of thinking we could say that all human beings could trace their beginning at the same Qalu Bala covenant, couldn't we?
But at that point there were only spirits and program to either follow or not god as their lord.
Now all that is getting into virtual reality and not into the real world.
The truth is that Islam began with prophet Muhammad and there is no traceable proof of never existing before that.
There were no Muslims before Muhammad ever.There is no proof the previous prophets had nothing to do with Islam.
Yes, they spread the word of God but that's as far as the similarities go. Yes you can argue that all prophets worship the same god and therefore you can call that god Allah but before Muhammad there was no Islam.
You can say Islam always existed and Muslims always existed but that is just an empty statement with nothing to back up your claims other than scriptures with no historical value.
Prove historically that Islam was always there.I need some solid proof and not just empty claims.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

According to Christian belief Jesus was always part of God and so was the Holy Spirit so nothing really changed in terms of the commandments, the purpose of life and the after life in either heaven or hell.
What changed according to Christian belief is that prior to Jesus coming to earth humans were born sinners because of Adam's disobeying god's instructions. Jesus came to destroy the devil's work that followed Adam's mistake.
But the basic rules have always been pretty much the same, be good and go to heaven be bad and end up in hell.

so, basically everyone prior to Jesus were sinners...so, how can a sinner end up in heaven? I do not get that. and where did the rules come from? what was condered good and what was considered bad? who decided that back then? and how was it communicated with the humans?

Please enlighten us.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

In order for us to understand each other we have to agree on certain basic definitions:
Islam = The religion that originated from the revelations received by prophet Muhammad.
Muslim = The people who believe in Islam

you've got a lot of nerve dude, coming here...giving Islaam a false definition in such a way that is conveniant to you, so that you may argue with us using your wicked claims.
You may want to look up what islaam and muslim means in arabic...I am not going to argue with you based on your own made up definitions.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

https://questionsonislam.com/article...e-been-muslims

Qalu Bala covenant means that Allah created the spirits of all people before He created the world and the human beings in it.

Qalu Bala means "no, you are" in Arabic...it is the answer we gave to the question "Am I not your Lord?"
It means that we all believe that Allah is our God, and from that moment we are muslims. That makes practically everyone a muslim when he is born and remains a muslim until he can distinguish on his own what is good and what is bad....even the children born to christian parents.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

Following your line of thinking we could say that all human beings could trace their beginning at the same Qalu Bala covenant, couldn't we?
But at that point there were only spirits and program to either follow or not god as their lord.
Now all that is getting into virtual reality and not into the real world.

virtual reality according to your wicked definition perhaps...pretty much real world to us...but as it may please you...lets use spiritual world and scientific world

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

The truth is that Islam began with prophet Muhammad and there is no traceable proof of never existing before that.

again, that is what you believe...however, not the truth. what you believe is not even logical...even christianity didn't start with Jesus...think about it...if God send down all the prophets to promote the true religion...prophets like Abraham, and Noah, and David...how come Christianity starts with Jesus? that is stupid.
The true religion always existed...every single prophet came update the prior prophet, but still the same religion. the religions we all know today are all wandered off versionss of the true arch religion which is Islaam.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

There were no Muslims before Muhammad ever.There is no proof the previous prophets had nothing to do with Islam.

here you go acting like that child during his exams again. you have the various verses and hadeeths as your prove...

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

Yes, they spread the word of God but that's as far as the similarities go. Yes you can argue that all prophets worship the same god and therefore you can call that god Allah but before Muhammad there was no Islam.

no, nothing to argue...the Quraan clearly sums up the most known prophets and describes them as true believers. That is enough prove to say they were all muslims.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

You can say Islam always existed and Muslims always existed but that is just an empty statement with nothing to back up your claims other than scriptures with no historical value.
Prove historically that Islam was always there.I need some solid proof and not just empty claims.

how can it be an empty statement when there are hadeeth and verses about it?
It can only be an empty statement if you can somehow prove to me that the Quraan was human made.
prove to us that it is human written and you have a foot to stand on...untill then you are stuck with this mysterious book with unkown origin but highly valuable and at the same time poetic content.

Good luck

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

In order for us to understand each other we have to agree on certain basic definitions:
Islam = The religion that originated from the revelations received by prophet Muhammad.
Muslim = The people who believe in Islam

This is what happens when one learns Islam from ex-Muslims, atheists and google search and never once read Quran in its entirety. If you read Quran you will find that the name of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is mentioned only 4 times. While Quran is full of stories of previous prophets.

• Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) is mentioned 136 times.
• Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) is mentioned 69 times.
• Prophet Nuh (peace be upon him) is mentioned 43 times.
• Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is mentioned 25 times.

Believing in previous Books and Prophets is fundament pillar in Islam and if any Muslims disbelieves in a single Prophet then he is not a Muslim.
Allah says in the Quran:

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."[Quran 2:136]

What does it mean? It means Islam is not a religion which started 1400 years ago. It is the religion of all previous prophets including the very first human being Adam (peace be upon him).

I think we need to go back the fundamental question that why should one believe in God. Once we establish that God does exist then we can take the next step to see which religion is the true religion and why?

With that, let me ask you is true justice being served in this world? If there is no life in hereafter, do you think justice has been served to those who killed millions such as Hitler?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

Every Christian before Jesus was born a sinner but that only meant they need it to revert their situation by becoming closer to god by showing their faith to him. Not many did so before Jesus come to earth.
Jesus really made a huge difference since after him Christianity became the most popular religion of all times and that is still the case today.

So, in other words, according to christianity, God send prophets prior to the earth, each of them starting their own religion...and those different religions were also allowed as long as people could show their faith in him through that religion?
is that correct? And (I know the answer to this, but I want to see what your answer is from Christian perspective, so I'm gonna ask anyway) why would God want to see that? Isn't God Omnipotent? Can he not see the future or does He not just know who we are and what is in oir hearts...so why do we need to show God someting that He already knows?

and being born a sinner was somehow OK then, but something still had to be done about that so Jesus came along right?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

Sorry but you misunderstood. I tried to use the most common definitions of Islam and Muslim but I don't mind if you provide your own definitions.
I’m not interested in the Arabic meanings of the words but what they represent.
Islam = a religion
Muslim = the member of Islam

So, Eddy...you found yourself a rabbit hole that goes deeper than you ever imagined right?

you want to talk about Islaam but you are not interested in the meaning of those words?
Islaam means "submission to the will of God" in Arabic
Muslim means "one who submits to the will of God" in Arabic
Allah is not a name, it is "God" in Arabic.

What word do you think Arabic Christians use to refer to God? they speak about Allah.

As you can see by the meanings of the words Islaam and Muslim, it is a general religion.
So Islaam is not based on some prophet who started his own religion...it is the Arch religion which was always there. It still is valid that if there is someone out there who has legitimately never heard of Muhammad sas, never heard about the Quraan, never had the reasonable chance to learn about Islaam...but still believes in a God...then this person is considered "Muslim". small children and mentally challenged people who cannot distinguish between right and wrong, good or evil...are considered "Muslim".
So it is hard to be not a muslim...you need to know about Muhammad sas and the Quraan and reject that.

Even Wikipedia does not venture into putting such a definition to Islaam...because that is just not true...it is not what we believe.
in fact, you might want to read the Wikipedia version about Islaam...then you might have a better impression about Islaam then you have now.

let me dictate one sentence from wiki:

Muslims believe that Islam is the complete and universal version of a primordial faith that was revealed many times before through prophets, including Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.^[10]

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

It is about being able to communicate. We can have different definitions but we have to make clear how we use these words to avoid misunderstandings.

I understand your intention but you do not achieve that by adopting definitions that are not true just for the sake of argument.

let us agree with each other that from now on we pronounce "2" as "three",
so that we may legitimately argue that 1+1=three
or three+three=4

would that be a useful thing to do?

I guess not

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

That is why we need definitions, Islam was not always there according to what most of the world understands.

You need to understand that what you believe as a Muslim has no value outside Islam.
I can say anybody who doesn’t believe in Jesus is going to hell but as a Muslim or a Jew or a Buddhist that statement has zero value, doesn’t it?
So the phrases everyone is born a Muslim or Islam has always been there are only valid within Islam and they are absolutely meaningless to the rest of the world.

I partially agree. I understand that those phrases have zero value to you because it requires to believe...however...there is this strong source to back it up which is still bugging you about it.
It is literally written in the Quraan...you cannot deny that.
So, unless you can prove to me that the Quraan has a human origin, and explain to me who wrote it and how it got distributed, you continuously have to deal with the Quraan as a legitimate source.

as a scientist, you cannot ignore a useful source, you have to have prove to be able to say "this source is unreliable because..."

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

You see that's where you are wrong. Christianity started exactly during Jesus Christ passage on earth.

no. during Jesus as passage on earth it was Islaam being taught to people through Jesus as himself...after Jesus as left the Earth, the human made religion "christianity" started.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

Without Jesus Christ Christianity would have never taken place, the God would have still be there but now we would have only Judaism and Islam.

true

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

Same thing with Islam, without Muhammad there would be no Islam, the God would still be there so now we would have only Judaism and Christianity.
See what I mean?

Without Muhammad sas, there would be no Quraan...this means that only the original Gospels revealed to Jesus as would be valid as the holy book. and the few people who still believe in the original teachings of Jesus as, who also reject trinity would be considered as Muslims.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

I have only one more request from you:
Could you please show me that Islam existed before prophet Muhammad?
Please don't use the Quran nor the Hadith to answer.
I want you to use an independent source.
Please use only use historical data.
Show me a civilization or tribe of people who followed a religion that looked like Islam who's god is called Allah and its members call themselves Muslims or any other name.
Links please.

again, arabic christians god is called Allah.
about proof of islaam as the premordial religion:
Proof in the way you ask is not available.

But think about it logically.

God created earth
God put humans on earth to find God for themselves
God sends down various prophets throughout history to guide us to Him...and He sends down Books and scriptures.
if you read the original versions of the last books (besides the Quraan, because you do not wish that) you read similar stories about prior prophets and what they have done.

How can you deny that christianity has deeper roots than the time of Jesus as?
How can you deny that Jewism has deeper roots than the time of Moses as?
Do you think it is coincidence that Islaam, Christianity and Jewism share the same stories and prophets?
or are they inspired from each other?

I do not have any historical source for you showing that Islaam existed prior to Muhammad sas...if I had, then there were only muslims here on earth.

format_quote Originally Posted by medico

At first,you claim to be an agnostic, next you defend Christianity. Being an agnostic, Trinity and part of god in a person should not make sense to you. You should rather be speaking for agnosticism and NOT Christianity because you aren't christian anymore.

I didn't offer to speak about Christianity, I was asked to talk about it.
I grew up a Christian and my culture and morals come from Christianity so I have no problem with it.
I am here discussing Islam and maybe later I will go and discuss politics, economy, coronavirus, etc, and I don't see the problem.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

So, in other words, according to christianity, God send prophets prior to the earth, each of them starting their own religion...

That happened with Islam as well, didn't it. There is no evidence of any religion similar to Islam until Muhammad came around.
Those are the facts, your claims that Islam has always existed are just that, "claims" based on scriptures not on any historical facts.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

why would God want to see that? Isn't God Omnipotent? Can he not see the future or does He not just know who we are and what is in oir hearts...so why do we need to show God someting that He already knows?

I'm not going to speak on behalf of god since I don't even believe God exists.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

I understand that those phrases (Islam been always there) have zero value to you because it requires to believe...however...there is this strong source to back it up which is still bugging you about it.
It is literally written in the Quraan...you cannot deny that.

What you called a strong source is actually a very weak source in the mind of an agnostic.
The Quran is the word of Allah.
Allah is a God and therefore an unproven being.
Everything coming from an unproven being is unproven and therefore subjective.
I've been waiting for many years for someone to prove God exists and all I got so far is "have faith and believe".

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

no. during Jesus as passage on earth it was Islaam being taught to people through Jesus as himself...after Jesus as left the Earth, the human made religion "christianity" started.

That is just talk based on unproven scriptures, no proof, no historical facts.
The only historical fact is that Jesus is responsible for the creation of a new religion based on an old religion.
I don't know if that is what Jesus meant to do but that is what he did.
Because of him alone the religion is the most popular in the world today.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

Without Muhammad sas, there would be no Quraan...this means that only the original Gospels revealed to Jesus as would be valid as the holy book. and the few people who still believe in the original teachings of Jesus as, who also reject trinity would be considered as Muslims.

There is no trace nor record nor historical facts about those Muslims you talk about.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

That happened with Islam as well, didn't it.

you are desperately trying to avoid a point here I was trying to make:
according to your story different religions prior to Christianity was allowed...worshipping different gods was allowed, as long as people showed they had faith in some God? and that was enough to earn a place in heaven?


and being born a sinner was somehow OK then, but something still had to be done about that so Jesus came along right?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

There is no evidence of any religion similar to Islam until Muhammad came around.
Those are the facts, your claims that Islam has always existed are just that, "claims" based on scriptures not on any historical facts.

There is your problem exactly Eddy, you're already settled with facts. facts are fallible. Science is per definition fallible. It is just a tool to understand the world we live in. It is an approximation of reality.
you could have the absolute truth...but because you demand facts, you just settle with an approximation of the absolute truth...(with only the understandable part that is).

Of course that is "only a claim of us"....

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

I'm not going to speak on behalf of god since I don't even believe God exists.

this shows that you do not understand religion at all...never gave it a chance to understand...and never tried to understand it...so what are you doing here.

again...God is omnipotent...why would he want to test us if he already knows the outcome of it? think about that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

What you called a strong source is actually a very weak source in the mind of an agnostic.
The Quran is the word of Allah.
Allah is a God and therefore an unproven being.
Everything coming from an unproven being is unproven and therefore subjective.
I've been waiting for many years for someone to prove God exists and all I got so far is "have faith and believe".

then take action.
you always pushed the Quraan aside...never gave it a chance...that shows how biased you are...you are not a real agnostic...you are not a true scientist...you just believe what you are told.

a true researcher explores every single source...no matter the reliability...besides, you need to research a source in order to estimate its reliability...you never did that with the quraan...you just have an empty claim that it is human written...based on absolutely nothing...there is no single page on the whole internet that points to quraan as human written.

So do that first, show us the links to those sites that prove that the quraan is human written, and you can justly cross out the Quraan from your sources list.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

That is just talk based on unproven scriptures, no proof, no historical facts.
The only historical fact is that Jesus is responsible for the creation of a new religion based on an old religion.
I don't know if that is what Jesus meant to do but that is what he did.

that is not what he did, that is what happened. He did just right, but the people themselves were stupid enough to wander off from the right path again.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

Because of him alone the religion is the most popular in the world today.

There is no trace nor record nor historical facts about those Muslims you talk about.

yeah we know...facts...bla bla...

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

you are desperately trying to avoid a point here I was trying to make:
according to your story different religions prior to Christianity was allowed...worshipping different gods was allowed, as long as people showed they had faith in some God? and that was enough to earn a place in heaven?

Judaism and Christianity always believed in one God so I have no idea how you misinterpreted this so bad.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

you always pushed the Quraan aside...never gave it a chance...

So you are not understanding, I'm here to find out if Allah is for real or not.
That simple.
The Quran is the word of Allah, isn't it?
How can I believe everything the Quran says?
That defeats the purpose of my investigation.
I read suspicious Quran passages and question them, ""this doesn't look like something a God would say or do, doesn't it?""
Then I make my own conclusion based on all the responses in the discussion and my own research.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

you are not a real agnostic...you are not a true scientist...you just believe what you are told.

That could be all true except that I don't believe everything I'm told.
I'm very good at making my own conclusions.
I believe that there's a very strong possibility the Quran is 100% conceived and written by men.
That is my own conclusion because as you said there are not many links about people sharing my position.
My reasoning to arrive at this conclusion is all mine so you are wrong, I don't believe everything I'm told.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

a true researcher explores every single source...no matter the reliability...besides, you need to research a source in order to estimate its reliability...you never did that with the quraan...

How do you know?
I know more about Islam that I know about Christianity.
I read the Quran, many Hadith, Tafsir (the few in english)
I read many Christian apologists that like to expose Islam but also many Islamic apologists that help me balance my opinions.
I like to see both sides and at the end make my own opinion.


One last thing that keeps bothering me.
You believe that the Quran has been preserved unchanged since the time it was created, don't you?
That because Muslims preserved every word of it thru time.
Not only that but Muslims maintained their culture thru all this time.
My problem with this:
How come Muslims did such a great job preserving the Quran and their culture after Muhammad but didn't do the same thing after all the other prophets?
You claimed Allah gave the same message to all the other prophets and at each of those times people were initially Muslims.
Mysteriously each time not only people forgot about the islamic message but also about the Islamic culture and instead turned into a more Jewish like culture.
That is hard to explain, isn't it?
The same happened when Jesus came around.
According to your version at the beginning the message to Jesus was similar to the message to Muhammad.
Am I correct?
But again mysteriously the very resilient Muslims forgot about the Islamic teachings and their Islamic culture and instead turned into what today is the very different Christian beliefs and culture.
History remembers the culture of the people after Jesus and Moses and others but history mysteriously forgot all about the existence of some Islamic culture at all those times.
You know what they say:
Too much coincidence might not be coincidence at all.
The more I research about this the more I believe these Islamic teachings before Muhammad never happened.