there was a challenge in another thread to prove the qur'an is not the word of god, but it put the burden of proof on the wrong person. the burden of proof is upon you to prove something, not on someone else to disprove. a defendent doesn't have the burden of proof the prosecuter does. therefore, i challenge you to prove the qur'an is the word of god.
The Word Quran in Arabic Means "a book which is constantly recited"
Now as we have muslims all over the globe they pray
The prayer timings are 5 in the day starting from down and the last prayer at night.
In the prayer we recite the Quran
When it is night in Pakistan - it is day in USA and it is Afternoon in UK
so as time progresses it is always time for the prayer somewhere in the world
thus this book is indeed constantly recited!
A truth about the true book - even from its name.
Furthermore if you want evidences from the Quran you can also have a look at this page and comment on it. Proofs of the Quran
Please also note that if you would like to bring forward claims - please do so by all means but always quote tthe correct references from the Quran otherwise we wont know what you are tlaking about
This question seems to me to come down to the same thing as the question of the existence of god. In both cases it's arguable who has the burden of proof. As an atheist, I think the theist has the burden of proof since god seems to me to be a huge hypothesis with no supporting evidence; a theist might say I have to prove god doesn't exist since bringing god into the discussion (apparently) explains so much that would otherwise be inexplicable, such as the origin of the universe.
Personally, when I read the Qur'an (in English translation since I don't know Arabic), it strikes me with every line as being the work of human hands.
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
I will give you a simple proof to begin with...
The Word Quran in Arabic Means "a book which is constantly recited"
Now as we have muslims all over the globe they pray
The prayer timings are 5 in the day starting from down and the last prayer at night.
In the prayer we recite the Quran
When it is night in Pakistan - it is day in USA and it is Afternoon in UK
so as time progresses it is always time for the prayer somewhere in the world
thus this book is indeed constantly recited!
A truth about the true book - even from its name.
This "proof" has nothing to do with the authorship of the Qur'an.
The word "Bible" comes from the Greek word βιβλια, meaning 'books', and the Bible does indeed contain many books. Does this mean that god wrote the Bible?
The word "Bible" means 'books', and the Bible does indeed contain many books. Does this mean that god wrote the Bible?
Calling a book a book is nothing special.
But calling a book by a name which represents something which is an action undertaken by humans and must constantly be true is indeed a miracle.
Did you know that when the Quran was revealed and the Muslims were only in Arabia at most this property was also true?
The Prophet Mohammed (sa) used to stay up all night praying and still attend his daily life.
It was one of his miracles - he had advised his followers not to try and fast as he fasts (he used to fast for many days in a row) and also not to try and stay up all night as he does because he had been given special strength by Allah.
Ofcourse he also used to sleep sometimes but not for very long. Indeed a miracle in the name "Quran" does exist in my understanding
remember, you can't prove the qur'an by using the qur'an. it is circular reasoning.
please do have a look at the proofs page link i gave you in the 1st post - its from science.
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Personally, when I read the Qur'an (in English translation since I don't know Arabic), it strikes me with every line as being the work of human hands.
can you eloborate how?
I would like to know - not for debate or argument - just for knowhow
But calling a book by a name which represents something which is an action undertaken by humans and must constantly be true is indeed a miracle.
So if I wrote a book called "Gardening forever", would that be a miracle?
can you eloborate how?
I would like to know - not for debate or argument - just for knowhow
Knowhow - for arguing with atheists and other non-believers you mean!
Certainly, although I'm wary of causing offence here. I know I shouldn't, since Muslims are more than capable of withstanding whatever negative opinions I may have of your holy book, but I still get this feeling - you understand.
Basically, I've never seen anything in the Qur'an that I feel must have had some supernatural power in its authorship. I've never seen anything in it that has struck me as being cleverer or more insightful than many other books.
Not knowing Arabic, I can't experience the poetry of the book, although I can admit to being entranced by its music when listening to recitations. However, that's something that can be experienced through the poetry of any language. Even if the poetry were as good (to my ear) as Shakespeare or Milton are in English, that obviously wouldn't convince me it was written by anything other than a human, since those two were humans.
I'm not convinced by the claims for "scientific miracles" in the Qur'an that are often made. I could show you ancient works of poetry or philosophy that contain similarly vague statements which have since been found to be true according to modern science, but does that mean the authors had supernatural intelligence? Of course not.
remember, you can't prove the qur'an by using the qur'an. it is circular reasoning.
Yes you can
God sent mesengers to several nations before. to help these messengers convince their people, he gave them miracles. For example prophet moses PBUH was given a stick that could do magic, this convinced people watching at the time he must have been a true messenger
Prophet Jesus Peace Be Upon Him was given the miracle of eing able to give life to the dead, turn clay into lving birds, speak from during childhood, born without father, so people would see this as miracles and would say he's a messenger and accept him
Now in this day and age i can't tell someone to convert to islam, simply because Prophet Moses PBUH split the sea, or jesus PBUH spoke when he was a child. No one will convert for this reason, they'll say wheres the proof, i didn't see it
You need a universal miracle, that stands for all time
Now since Prophet Muhammed SAW was the last messenger, sent for the rest of time, his miracle requires to be universal and last this whole time and apply to everyone, and believe it or not it does
Hundreds convert everyday because of these miracles
1) Qur'an was revealed at a time when arabs used to compete in poetry. Qur'an surpassed all their poetry, and people would convert simply because of the language, they knew it was from God, a man could not write such beauty, especially a man who was illiterate! God challenged people to produce just one verse like one in the Qur'an, this challenge has remained until today, no one has come forward, because no-one can beat god. Even today millions of christian rabs convert to islam when they hear Qur'an on TV, thy know a man could not have written that
2) Not one verse in Qur'an conflicts with modern science. astonishing fact since it was revealed 1400 years ago when so many incorrect theories were around
3) In fact Qur'an contains many scientific miracles that have only been discovered today. It talks about Buig bang, how at the beginning there was smoke, how space is expanding, how earth isn't stationary, how earth and sun both move, how moon reflects sun's light. It says earth is not flat but in fact round
Also major miracles for me are things like it describes the birth of a baby in great detail, in different stages. And Keith Moore, who has greatest authority in field of medicine, admitted the Qur'an is totally right about it see http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-search.htm and go to scientific miracles, and read section 1H) about what actual scientists say about it
4) Qur'an has so many stories that are so similar with those of the Bible, even though an arabic Bible wasn't around at the time, and Muhammed SAW never came into contacts privately with christian/jews.
Even still, people who still say he copied from the Bible, if he did copy then why would he copy all the stories, but yet not copy all mathematical errors and scientific errors in Bible, and rather create new theories that turns out were all right
5) Qur'an makes some prophecies that at the time seemed so foolish to make by a man, it was like falling for a suicide trap, could easily have backfired, and there weren't any need for any of these prophecies, but yet they were still made and all proved right, i will provide these later inshallah
6) Historical accuracies made by the Qur'an. For example it talks about a city Iram that was discovered later
It also gets right the naming of the rulers in egypt. Prophet Joseph, great grandson of Ibrahim PBUH, at his time in the Bible the rulers are called Pharaoh. same title is given to the ruler at Prophet Moses' time, he's called Pharaoh. Now in Qur'an the ruler at the time of Prophet Joseph is called a King, not Pharaoh. Historians have proven this to be correct, how could this be, if Muhammed had wrote the qur'an surely he would've copied what was in the Bible
7) Muhammed PBUH prophecised on many occasions in Bible and Hindu scriptures. In fact he's prophecised by name in the Hindu scriptures on more than one occasion, and this prophecy is so accurate
According to Bhavishya Purana in the Pratisarag Parv III, Khand 3, Adhyay 3 Shalokas 10 to 27 Maharishi Vyas has prophesied:
“The Malechha have spoiled the well-known land of the Arabs. Arya Dharma is not to be found in the country. Before also there appeared a misguided fiend whom I had killed; he has now again appeared being sent by a powerful enemy. To show these enemies the right path and to give them guidance the well-known Mohamad (Mohammad) who has been given by me, the epithet of Brahma, is busy in bringing the ‘Pishachas’ to the right path. O Raja, you need not go to the land of the foolish Pishachas, you will be purified through my kindness even where you are. At night, he of the angelic disposition, the shrewd man, in the guise of a pischacha said to Raja Bhoj, O Raja! Your Arya Dharma has been made to prevail over all religions, but according to the commandments of Ishwar Parmatama, I shall enforce the strong creed of the meat eaters. My followers will be men circumcised, without a tail (on his head), keeping beard, creating a revolution announcing Adhan (call for prayer) and will be eating all lawful things. He will eat all sorts of animals except swine. They will not seek purification from the holy shrubs, but will be purified through warfare. On account of their fighting the irreligious nations, they will be known as Musalmaans. I shall be the originator of this religion of the meat-eating nation.”
This clearly prophecises Muhammed PBUH
I hope these are sufficient proofs for you inshallah
So if I wrote a book called "Gardening forever", would that be a miracle?
Actually no it wont - gardening is not done all year round at all hours of the day or night
now if you said something like "sleeping forever" yea then it could be used as a counter argument against my point.
I gues I made a weak point to begin with since it was a simple argument - so I stand corrected on that.
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No I dont want to use "knowhow" to argue
like i said i was just curious as to why a person would say every verse felt like the work of man...
I mean if you look at this thing:
In the Quran Allah(swt) describes when our solar system will come to an end and judgment day will begin. The verse is as follows:
Al-Quran, Chapter 55 Ar-Rahman, Verse 37
And when the sky is torn apart and becomes (rosy) red like ointment
1500 years later using the Hubble telescope scientists at NASA discovered how a dying star system looks like (Figure 1).
Figure 1: October 31, 1999
The Cat's Eye Nebula
Credit: J.P. Harrington and K.J. Borkowski (U. Maryland), HST, NASA
Three thousand light-years away, a dying star throws off shells of glowing gas
How could have Mohammed(pbuh) have known about such a fact when such powerful telescopes as the Hubble didn't even exist in those days?
Allah(swt) created the universe and all that it contains and it is he who can best describe such phenomenon with such perfection in his revelation to mankind, yet another proof!
Actually no it wont - gardening is not done all year round at all hours of the day or night
now if you said something like "sleeping forever" yea then it could be used as a counter argument against my point.
I gues I made a weak point to begin with since it was a simple argument - so I stand corrected on that.
-----
No I dont want to use "knowhow" to argue
like i said i was just curious as to why a person would say every verse felt like the work of man...
I mean if you look at this thing:
In the Quran Allah(swt) describes when our solar system will come to an end and judgment day will begin. The verse is as follows:
Al-Quran, Chapter 55 Ar-Rahman, Verse 37
And when the sky is torn apart and becomes (rosy) red like ointment
1500 years later using the Hubble telescope scientists at NASA discovered how a dying star system looks like (Figure 1).
Figure 1: October 31, 1999
The Cat's Eye Nebula
Credit: J.P. Harrington and K.J. Borkowski (U. Maryland), HST, NASA
Three thousand light-years away, a dying star throws off shells of glowing gas
How could have Mohammed(pbuh) have known about such a fact when such powerful telescopes as the Hubble didn't even exist in those days?
Allah(swt) created the universe and all that it contains and it is he who can best describe such phenomenon with such perfection in his revelation to mankind, yet another proof!
Salam
as long as we have people standing up for the Quran the word of Allah, means that the Ummah will never vanish until the day of judgement.
Insh'Allah
therefore, i challenge you to prove the qur'an is the word of god.
When I start a debate on the Qur'an, I always begin by asking others to bring their evidence that it isn't the word of God. The reason I do this is because even a single example contrary to the claim of divine authorship is sufficient to refute the claim, so it is more appropriate to first refute points cited as evidence that the Qur'an is not the word of God. Once the opponent's points are refuted or explained, then we can move on to this part of the debate which you initiated.
First, I would like to present a brief list of some of the qualities the Qur'an posseses that will enable you to understand exactly why Muslims feel it is such a special book. This is what I posted before on the forum:
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I'll try to give you a comprehensive answer as to why the Qur'an is regarded the way it is by so many people.
1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:
-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.
-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.
2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:
-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.
-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.
3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:
-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text (see here for discussion of word repetitions). As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.
-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.
This is just my summary of the miraculous features Muslims find in the Qur'an. For more information, please see section 3c of The First and Final Commandment.
The above examples are just a few of word repetitions in the Qur'an that pose many difficulties to the critic of the Qur'an's divine origin.
The argument I use more frequently is one I raised in a dialogue with czgibson on the existence of God. The argument is reduced to the fact that either Muhammad was a liar, deluded, insane, or he was what he truly claimed to be and the revelation he recieved was truly from God, the last option being the only rational position one can take with his life and with the Qur'anic revelation. While czgibson did not concede my argument, he did admit that his "answers with regard to Prophet Muhamamd pbuh are a little deficient and [that he'd] have to study this area more in order to formulate a rational position".
I hope this helps.
Regards
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
Actually no it wont - gardening is not done all year round at all hours of the day or night
now if you said something like "sleeping forever" yea then it could be used as a counter argument against my point.
I gues I made a weak point to begin with since it was a simple argument - so I stand corrected on that.
I may have used a bad example (although it's debatable - I would guess that somewhere there would actually be somebody gardening at any point in time), but I see that you got the point I was making.
I mean if you look at this thing:
[center]
In the Quran Allah(swt) describes when our solar system will come to an end and judgment day will begin. The verse is as follows:
Al-Quran, Chapter 55 Ar-Rahman, Verse 37
And when the sky is torn apart and becomes (rosy) red like ointment
1500 years later using the Hubble telescope scientists at NASA discovered how a dying star system looks like (Figure 1).
How could have Mohammed(pbuh) have known about such a fact when such powerful telescopes as the Hubble didn't even exist in those days?
Allah(swt) created the universe and all that it contains and it is he who can best describe such phenomenon with such perfection in his revelation to mankind, yet another proof!
OK, now this is exactly the sort of argument I find least convincing. For a start, the ayah from the Qur'an says nothing about the solar system or what a dying star system looks like. The words are not mentioned, because they are scientific labels devised by scientists. The section you've quoted from simply says that the sky will be torn apart and will turn red. Do you think the Qur'an is unique in having made prophecies like this?
The quotation does not imply knowledge about dying star systems on the part of the author, unlike the scientific detail that can be found on the Hubble telescope webpage. What has actually happened here is that a poetic phrase from the Qur'an has been reinterpreted in the light of scientific discovery.
Poetic language, such as that of the Qur'an, can be open to many interpretations, not all of which may be immediately clear. If someone finds a detail of scientific discovery that happens to correspond with an earlier piece of writing, does that mean the earlier writer had divine foreknowledge? Of course not.
The ancient Greek philosopher Democritus (c. 460-370 BCE) proposed that matter is made up of atoms. The fact that he was essentially right about this was not proven until centuries later. How could he have known? Was he divinely inspired?
That's the essence of my view on the "scientific miracles" argument.
The Quran is not always followed as few countries practice the sharia.
While it is true that there is no government today that is implementing the legal and political teachings of the Qur'an completely, my point remains concerning individuals.
As of its universalism i doubt that western countries would accept for example beheadings or cutting of hands.
I just limit my critics to the sharia laws concerning justice.
I must also add that christians use only one Bible and the "many versions of the Bible" is a fad from islamic websites. People attending christian meetings see that the Bibles are all the same.
I'm surprised one would make such a claim when it is very clear that the Bibles differ even in number of books, depending on the church.
The many virtues of the Quran, which cannot be denied, are also to be found in the Bible, whose exegesis has also generated thousands of books over a more than two thousand years span.
How many people have memorized the entire Bible in the original hebrew and greek and can recite it in front of people, cover to cover.
Every year in Ramadan, Muslims stand up and recite the entire Qur'an in arabic, cover to cover.
I noticed you didn't comment on the word repetitions. Please give me your views on that.
Thanks
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
The Quran is not always followed as few countries practice the sharia. The tendency in Muslim justice is more to follow western standards than the Quran.
Same could be said about any religious book.
As of its universalism i doubt that western countries would accept for example beheadings or cutting of hands.
There are advantages and disadvantages of using this method
I must also add that christians use only one Bible and the "many versions of the Bible" is a fad from islamic websites. People attending christian meetings see that the Bibles are all the same.
Ditto with muslims and the Quran.
The many virtues of the Quran, which cannot be denied, are also to be found in the Bible, whose exegesis has also generated thousands of books over a more than two thousand years span.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
There are advantages and disadvantages of using this method
I've probably misunderstood whta you've written here, but are you implying the law of Allah has disadvantages? Correct me if i'm wrong
Make Dua for your Brothers and the Angels will make Dua for You!
Happy moments, Praise Allah
Difficult moments, Seek Allah
Quiet moments, Worship Allah
Painful moments, Trust Allah
Every moment, Thank Allah
If Allah brings you to it, He will bring you through it
I am satisfied to hear the argument of the number of books in the catholic Bible as compared to the protestant Bible, which is an argument of no importance.
What makes you say that? The argument refutes your claim that they have the same book.
Only muslims who are new on a religion forum do not know that the Bible is three or four times larger than the Quran and impossible to learn by heart.
I am well aware that the Bible is several times larger than the Qur'an, yet I maintain my point all the same. Can you show me any holy scripture other than the Qur'an which its followers memorize on a wide scale and can recite completely?
As of word repetitions in the Quran, knowing that nothing is new under the sun, as the saying goes, I see that gematria, the old Jewish kabbalistic lore, has now contaminated Quranic studies.
This is a red-herring. Instead of providing me with a rational response as to how Prophet Muhammad pbuh had a computer in his head such that he could keep track of the exact word repetitions, you have instead merely provide an unsubstantiated allegation of "old Jewish kabbalistic lore" contaminating Qur'anic studies. Word repetitions are simple statistics that are not particular to any one group. What you have left unanswered is the fact that the Qur'an miraculously uses words an exact number of times. Please answer this post: http://www.islamicboard.com/170015-post7.html
I'm challenging you. How are you going to explain that away? Was it mere chance? Then how about this one as well: http://www.islamicboard.com/171261-post12.html
And these ones: http://www.islamicboard.com/172587-post14.html
It simply can't be attributed to mere chance.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
I've probably misunderstood whta you've written here, but are you implying the law of Allah has disadvantages? Correct me if i'm wrong
Ah, i see what your saying. Allow me to explain.
Ok, in non-muslim countries, people would see Cutting off limbs as barbaric - implying that the ruling is disadvantagous. However, as a muslim I know why this punishment is given and similarly I understand why non-muslims wouldn't enforce this as a punishment.
Basically, from a non-muslim's point of view this particular punishment would be considered a disadvantage and so they are less likely to enforce it.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Only muslims who are new on a religion forum do not know that the Bible is three or four times larger than the Quran and impossible to learn by heart.
Somewhat true. Although some Muslims not only memorize the Quran, but also the six books of Ahadith. Some Muslims do also memorize the ten different Qira'at of the Quran.
Regarding the proof you want, well there are numerous. First, you should know that Muhammed (sall'Allaahu aleyhi wa sallam) was prophecied in the Bible (see Ahmed Deedat). Then we have some interesting evidence which I think have got far too little attention. Further, unlike many other, these evidence can't be said to be "miracle of reinterpretation" as they are confirmed by Egyptology.
I decided to follow your instructions and keep our interesting exchange of opinions in this other thread. You said that you have “evidence” of the Quran being the true word of God and I say that you don’t.
You don’t really have any evidence in favor of the Quran being really a work of God. Everything you say are things that are believed only by Muslims! If you want a proof in the scientific sense you need something that could be verified by an impartial observer. Nothing of what you say really qualifies. I can be convinced by anybody of the truth of a mathematical equation because it is something objective. I cannot be convinced by anybody of the truth of your book.
After reading all your links I think that you have essentially two arguments. I will call them the argument of content and the argument of coincidence.
The argument of content is what you use when you say that the Quran is universal, practical, logical, deep, etc. and from that you want to prove that the Quran is true. The problem is that those are obviously characteristics that only Muslims believe in!. I own both a Bible and a Quran and I find the first more universal, more practical, more logical, etc. Those are subjective opinions so they don’t count as arguments. The follower of each religion will find his own scriptures more universal, practical, logical, etc. That is why he is following that religion to begin with!
The argument of coincidence refers to the numerical miracles and the obsession of Muslims with finding embryology and cosmology in their book. I will repeat what I said somewhere else. The best example of this “argument” is that little trick of saying that the proportion between the number of times the word "land" and the word "sea" are mentioned in the Quran is exactly the proportion in which we find land and sea in the world, and implying from it that the Quran must be the true word of God. This doesn't work with anybody who is a little familiar with logic, you see, because it is obvious that you are only using that argument after you have carefully checked that it will work in your favor.
For example, I saw your post about the number of times the words “Adam” and “Eesa” appear in the Quran. You say that they both appear 25 times, and since there is a verse (3:59) that refers to the “likeness” of Adam and “Eesa”, somehow this verse proves that the Quran is the true word of God.
Once again, you are only using it as a proof once you have seen that it will work in your favor. In order to show you what I mean I opened my Quran completely at random and I found 6:115 “And the words of thy Lord are perfect in truth and justice: none can change his words: He is the Hearing, Knowing”
So clearly this verse is saying that God is Hearing and Knowing. So the words “God”, “Hearing” and “Knowing” should appear the same number of times, exactly as the words “Adam” and “Eesa” appear the same number of times. Is that so?
Do you get my point? Why are you allowed to establish the rule first and then check if your book fulfills the rule? Why is it that I cannot suggest a rule and THEN you see if the book satisfies the rule?
So you see, in my opinion you don’t really have any arguments for your book being the true word of God. You have to take Muhammad’s word for it. But when discussing my hypothetical Chinese peasant who claims to be the successor of Buddha and Confucius I said one thing and I will repeat it here. You don’t have proofs but you still have your common sense.
PS: More people are answering my claims in the other thread! I will have to post something for my fans…
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dat der is no mistakes in da qur'an n dat wat eva is ritten in it is true 
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