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Proof of God

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    Proof of God (OP)


    The Islamic belief and subsequently the Islamic way of life are premised on an intellectual basis. Therefore, Islam is neither a religion nor a set of values and rituals that arise from blind faith. Rather, Islam is an intellectual belief from which emanates a comprehensive socio-political and economic system. To understand the unique system that Islam offers necessitates the explanation of the Islamic belief i.e. the belief in God, Allah (swt) and the word of God, and the Qur'aan.


    God: The arguments



    Today if you mention God then you'll probably get a negative reaction. It has become the trend to get on with life and not bother to ask the question whether there is a God or not. In fact this question was not even asked much in the days of old, when you simply had to believe in God or be persecuted. Therefore, it is not surprising that people find it easy to believe that the existence of God is a myth, simply because they have never thought deeply about the idea.



    It is because people continued to believe in God blindly i.e. blind faith, rather than use ration, that science and its attempted explanations of universal phenomena was hailed as the 'new (false) God'.



    But let us deal with both arguments - for and against the existence of a Creator - from a rational perspective. A common argument by many Christians and some other religions is that God is the God of many abstract attributes such as Love, Peace, Mercy which indeed are admirable qualities for human beings to aspire to. This characterisation of God is based upon an implicit assumption that God can be likened to human beings thus the attempt to understand God in a human framework. Accordingly, we find in some societies, such as early Greek, that individual gods were used to represent single human attributes, and in other cultures gods have the quality to reproduce.



    The question this begs is whether the essence of an unlimited Creator is understandable through a limited, imperfect human mind when God lies beyond our perception? Rational thought would dictate that if God exists then knowledge of God's attributes can only come from itself. Therefore, famine in the world leading to the deaths of millions would not deny the Justice, Mercy or Love of a supposed God, but would only if one attributed the human essence to God. Similarly, if one understands God as the Governor and Controller of the universe then the notion of God dying is nonsensical. This is the failure of Christianity and indeed all religions, as their belief becomes a matter of blind faith. Consequently, they allow themselves to be plagued by rational contradictions, which inevitably lead to intellectual rise to disprove the existence of God. Are these arguments valid? To understand the validity of any proposed argument the premise should be examined. Science is concerned with the methodology of processes in the physical world, i.e. it deals with 'how' and not 'why'. Thus scientists are not concerned with why gravity exists but how gravity influences bodies to shape this universe.



    The scientific method is limited in that it can only deduce rules by repeated observation of physical phenomena. Thus the question of the existence of God does not and cannot fall into the realm of scientific thought because science deals with the mechanisms of events and phenomena within the universe i.e. the tangible and not the intangible. To test the hypothesis to apply scientific proof for or against God, one would effectively have said that God is "testable'. Therefore, logically one would conclude God to be within the universe since God must be physically tangible in order to test. Since God is tangible and contained within the universe, God must be limited and therefore cannot be God.



    Thus scientists are falling into the same trap as the blind followers of religion that is they are implicitly defining a role to God as the 'one who makes things work'. Since scientists have explained how things work the question of God does not arise. Those who argue from this angle have falsely assumed an attribute/essence of God in the same way Christians say God has a son or is Love.



    To prove or disprove the existence of a Creator we need to go beyond the limitations of the scientific method and proceed rationally for it is only the rational thought which has the ability to deal with an issue like this.



    The rational thought



    Man progresses as a result of his thoughts concerning everything around him. Thoughts are what distinguish man from other animals and without them man would be lost. Thought occurs when man receives information about something through his five senses. He then distinguishes it by linking it to previous information and experiences he has encountered. For example, a person comes across a plant. He knows that it is a plant due to previous knowledge of what a plant looks like. But only when he links it with previous information on the various types of plants will he be able to tell if it is edible or poisonous.



    Hence, just receiving information is not enough. It will remain only as information that we cannot appreciate or understand. However the process of linking it to previous information and distinguishing the information is the process of thought and is the key of understanding and progressing.



    Consequently, when man becomes convinced of the correctness of a thought, it becomes a concept, which he carries, thus, affecting his behaviour. For example, if we carry a concept of dislike of someone, it will affect our behaviour towards that person. So we see that carrying false ideas has serious implications for a person and if such false ideas are carried widely it has serious implications for society.



    Thus the idea and question of God has serious implications because the answer obtained becomes the very basis by which we understand the creation and purpose of man, life and the universe. Therefore, the method used should not merely be the rational thought but be comprehensive and agree with reality. Anything hypothetical or emotional should be rejected since their basis disagrees with ration and reality.



    The rational proof



    When we look around at everything we can sense one factor is shared by these things, they are all limited. By limited we mean that they have restrictions, a starting point and an ending point, and they all have definable attributes, i.e. they are finite.



    Man is born and he dies. There is no one alive who will not die. During his life span, he will grow to a certain shape, height and volume. The universe is defined as all the celestial bodies and planets. All these objects have a certain mass, shape, volume and so on. The life span of a star may be very long, but a point in time will come when it will cease to exist.



    The universe is large, but is still a 'finite' space. No scientist could ever prove using hard facts that the universe has no bounds. In fact when they say the universe arose from a Big Bang and is expanding they inherently admit it is finite in size, otherwise it could not expand! There is nothing in reality, which is unlimited. No matter how hard we try, man is unable to find anything unlimited around him. All he can perceive is the finite and limited.



    A further attribute of everything around us is that they are all needy and dependent in order to continue existing. They are not self-sustaining or independent. Man has needs. He has to satisfy in order to survive. He has organic needs. Man must eat and drink if he is to survive. If he does not he will die. We see need and dependency in plants and animals. They depend on other parts of the food chain for their existence. The water cycle is dependent on the sun, which is dependent on the laws of the galaxies and of burning mass, and so on... Nothing man can perceive is self-subsistent. So things exist, but do not have the power of existence. They cannot control when they die or when other bodies die.



    There is one fact that emerges from all this. If something is limited and finite, and does not have the power to be self-subsistent then it must have been created. Applying this to everything we see will bring us to a conclusion. If everything in the universe is created because it has not the power of being in existence on its own, and is finite and limited, then there must be a Creator. This Creator by contrast has to be unlimited and not needy and dependent on anything to bring it into, or sustain its existence.



    The universe; the sum of finite and dependent objects is finite and dependent - but dependent on what? It is dependent on something to start and sustain life; and something to plan and develop life.



    The only rational and intellectual solution to the question of creation is that there is a Creator, which has accounted for all that we see and perceive. Ration tells us that nothing can be created without a creator. Ultimately there must be a Creator who is unlimited in every aspect.



    Some scientists challenge this with a theory that everything depends on something for existence, which in turn depends upon something for existence, and so on ad infinitum. This theory is irrational, as it does not explain how anything came into existence in the first place. It uses an idea of ' Infinity’, which we know does not exist in reality. It does not, or even make an attempt, to explain-the very first step in the sequence. It is illogical and incomplete in its theory, and far from being scientific. If at its basis the theory is weak, how is it possible to trust the proceeding theoretical argument for the creation of the universe?



    Conclusion




    Hence, looking at any planet in the universe, contemplating on any phase of life, or comprehending any aspect of man provides a conclusive evidence for the existence of a Creator, what Muslims call Allah (swt).



    This intellectual proof of the existence of Allah (swt) is an understanding open for everyone and obligatory for all Muslims to be convinced of. Each person must explore to the limit of his understanding. Blind belief has no place in Islam. Believing through instinctive emotions is unreliable and dangerous as emotions can change and add error to ones belief and actions. And if the basis of the belief is irrational and weak, how can a system of life be built upon it?
    Proof of God

    “Whoever puts his trust in Allah, sufficient is Allah for him.”

  2. #221
    root's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Proof of God

    Report bad ads?

    P.s... do you like my avatar?
    Yes, that is a big telescope. Is he a bird watcher observing migration paths?

    The neanderthal fossils or fake/misinterpretted.
    lol......... you'll be telling us next the moon is made of cheese
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    I believe dinosaurs existed silly. The neanderthal fossils or fake/misinterpretted.
    So do you also reject the other humanoid fossils such as Homo Habilis?

    And who would fake the Neanderthal fossils?

    P.s... do you like my avatar?
    What is it with you and SAMs anyway?

    I prefered the woman.
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
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  5. #223
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Yes, that is a big telescope. Is he a bird watcher observing migration paths?
    Yes, he especially loved green birds (inside joke).



    format_quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    lol......... you'll be telling us next the moon is made of cheese
    It isn't?
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  6. #224
    IbnAbdulHakim's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Proof of God

    i cant remember who but one of the prophets (AS) asked Allah (swt) what is the least of his mercy on us.. THE LEAST!
    and he said, take a breath, that is the least of my mercy!

    SUBHANALLAH!!!

    Proof of God

    -
    My tears testify that i have a heart
    yet i feel me and shaytan never part
    -
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    MinAhlilHadeeth's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    So do you also reject the other humanoid fossils such as Homo Habilis?

    And who would fake the Neanderthal fossils?
    You lost me... the what?

    I heard that one time this scientists glued a monkey skull to a human jaw. Lol, he was creative. I know i'm going to regret saying that, but I thought it was really funny.



    format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    What is it with you and SAMs anyway?

    I prefered the woman.
    I think it looks romantic.
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  9. #226
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    Re: Proof of God

    I heard that one time this scientists glued a monkey skull to a human jaw. Lol, he was creative. I know i'm going to regret saying that, but I thought it was really funny.
    I too remember seeing that documentry. I think it was all a hoax something about finding the missing link between man and ape.
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    So not a dinosaur but another creature of the same bone structure? What other creature?
    how do u no dat da creature was called dinosaur

    Proof of God


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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    You lost me... the what?
    Scientists have found a lot of humanoid fossils. Homo Habilis is one of them.

    I heard that one time this scientists glued a monkey skull to a human jaw. Lol, he was creative. I know i'm going to regret saying that, but I thought it was really funny.
    Piltdown man.

    I think it looks romantic.
    Hmmm, romantic? You know much about Sigmund Freud?
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
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  12. #229
    MinAhlilHadeeth's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    Scientists have found a lot of humanoid fossils. Homo Habilis is one of them.



    Piltdown man.



    Hmmm, romantic? You know much about Sigmund Freud?
    Lol to the last two parts. No idea what that is, please inform me. I really don't know much about this homo habilis so please educate me on that matter too.
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by j4763 View Post
    I too remember seeing that documentry. I think it was all a hoax something about finding the missing link between man and ape.
    OH MY GOD, thank you! Now I don't look clinically insane... pheww.
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  15. #231
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    Lol to the last two parts. No idea what that is, please inform me. I really don't know much about this homo habilis so please educate me on that matter too.
    OK I deleted the joke about the Mahr. See? - I can learn!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_man

    The so-called Piltdown Man was fragments of a skull and jaw bone collected in the early years of the twentieth century from a gravel pit at Piltdown, a village near Uckfield, in the English county of Sussex. The fragments were claimed by experts of the day to be the fossilised remains of an hitherto unknown form of early man. The latin name Eoanthropus dawsoni was given to the specimen.

    The significance of the specimen remained the subject of controversy until it was exposed in 1953 as a forgery, consisting of the lower jaw bone of an ape combined with the skull of a fully developed, modern man. It has been suggested that the forgery was the work of the person said to be its finder, Charles Dawson, after whom it was named. This view is strongly disputed and many other candidates have been proposed as the true creators of the forgery.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_habilis

    Homo habilis «HOH moh HAB uh luhs» ("handy man", "skillful person") is a species of the genus Homo, which lived from approximately 2.5 million to 1.8 million years ago at the beginning of the Pleistocene. The definition of this species is credited to both Mary and Louis Leakey, who found fossils in Tanzania, East Africa, between 1962 and 1964. Homo habilis is arguably the first species of the Homo genus to appear. In its appearance and morphology, H. habilis was the least similar to modern humans of all species to be placed in the genus Homo (except possibly Homo rudolfensis). Homo habilis was short and had disproportionately long arms compared to modern humans, however it had a reduction in the protrusion in the face. It is thought to have descended from a species of australopithecine hominid. Its immediate ancestor may have been the more massive and ape-like, Homo rudolfensis. Homo habilis had a cranial capacity slightly less than half of the size of modern humans. Despite the ape-like morphology of the bodies, H. habilis remains are often accompanied by primitive stone tools (ie. Olduvai Gorge, Tanzania and Lake Turkana, Kenya).

    Have a look at the articles.
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
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  16. #232
    MinAhlilHadeeth's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Proof of God

    What joke????
    I want to know!
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  17. #233
    MinAhlilHadeeth's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Proof of God

    Wow ok.... thanks for that.
    So how are you sure these fossils aren't faked/minterpretted?
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  18. #234
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    Wow ok.... thanks for that.
    So how are you sure these fossils aren't faked/minterpretted?
    I am not sure. It is entirely possible that some fossils are faked. But when several similar fossils are found by different people it become less likely. When they stand up to testing it becomes less likely. Misinterpretation is a more interesting problem but the great thing about science is everyone should have an open mind, everything is open to debate and if the interpretation is wrong, other people will soon come up with another paradigm. This is why Piltdown was accepted - it fit the preconceived ideas of the scientists at the time (basically the British were more evolved than the French). But it was soon shown to be wrong.
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
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    Re: Proof of God

    Interesting. Ok, thank you for that.
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  21. #236
    root's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Proof of God

    Wow ok.... thanks for that.
    So how are you sure these fossils aren't faked/minterpretted?
    It would depend, firstly a "fossil" is prity non descriptive.

    Fossil - A remnant or trace of an organism of a past geologic age, such as a skeleton or leaf imprint, embedded and preserved in the earth's crust.

    A fly may become fossilised in tree sap and survive a million years or so in pristine condition, fossils also can become deep frozen in the antarctic. relatively young fossils may in the right circumstances fossilise for thousands of years.

    Fossils are very rare indeed, this considered you need to bear in mind that 90% of species now extinct have left no trace of thier existence so we will never know what other species have once lived. Further, thier ain't that many people actually looking for them!!!!

    "Most" fossils though do not have any biological matter at all, and what once was bone is now hard rock that has the bone shape and texture inprinted onto the stone, dating the rock and the rock around the fossil is how the age of the fossil is determined. The same process of rock being inprinted is also found with leaves etc etc.

    Like anything of value, fossil finds can make you rich and similar to the art world fossils have been known to be faked. For fossils of scientific interest, science does now go to extreme lengths to determine the validity of new fossil finds before publishing any work.

    Hope this helps..........
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  22. #237
    MinAhlilHadeeth's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Proof of God

    Thanks.
    So they can or can't be misinterpretted/faked?
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  23. #238
    root's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Proof of God

    So they can or can't be misinterpretted/faked?
    Yes........... Innocent people can be convicted of murder, people can have the wrong organ removed in surgery, indeed the quran can be misinterpretted (see my post on the red rose nebular:http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...e-nepular.html)
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  24. #239
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    Re: Proof of God

    Greetings and peace to you all,

    We have reached 239 posts in this discussion and we seem to be getting dizzy from going round in circles.

    I sense that instead of calling this thread ‘proof of God’ we should call it ‘faith in God’ and this would be a better description of how we trust in God.

    In the spirit of searching for God

    Eric
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    Re: Proof of God

    ^^perhaps
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  5. No proof...?
    By Al-Zaara in forum Miscellaneous
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-19-2006, 08:25 AM

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