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Proof of God

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    Proof of God

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    The Islamic belief and subsequently the Islamic way of life are premised on an intellectual basis. Therefore, Islam is neither a religion nor a set of values and rituals that arise from blind faith. Rather, Islam is an intellectual belief from which emanates a comprehensive socio-political and economic system. To understand the unique system that Islam offers necessitates the explanation of the Islamic belief i.e. the belief in God, Allah (swt) and the word of God, and the Qur'aan.


    God: The arguments



    Today if you mention God then you'll probably get a negative reaction. It has become the trend to get on with life and not bother to ask the question whether there is a God or not. In fact this question was not even asked much in the days of old, when you simply had to believe in God or be persecuted. Therefore, it is not surprising that people find it easy to believe that the existence of God is a myth, simply because they have never thought deeply about the idea.



    It is because people continued to believe in God blindly i.e. blind faith, rather than use ration, that science and its attempted explanations of universal phenomena was hailed as the 'new (false) God'.



    But let us deal with both arguments - for and against the existence of a Creator - from a rational perspective. A common argument by many Christians and some other religions is that God is the God of many abstract attributes such as Love, Peace, Mercy which indeed are admirable qualities for human beings to aspire to. This characterisation of God is based upon an implicit assumption that God can be likened to human beings thus the attempt to understand God in a human framework. Accordingly, we find in some societies, such as early Greek, that individual gods were used to represent single human attributes, and in other cultures gods have the quality to reproduce.



    The question this begs is whether the essence of an unlimited Creator is understandable through a limited, imperfect human mind when God lies beyond our perception? Rational thought would dictate that if God exists then knowledge of God's attributes can only come from itself. Therefore, famine in the world leading to the deaths of millions would not deny the Justice, Mercy or Love of a supposed God, but would only if one attributed the human essence to God. Similarly, if one understands God as the Governor and Controller of the universe then the notion of God dying is nonsensical. This is the failure of Christianity and indeed all religions, as their belief becomes a matter of blind faith. Consequently, they allow themselves to be plagued by rational contradictions, which inevitably lead to intellectual rise to disprove the existence of God. Are these arguments valid? To understand the validity of any proposed argument the premise should be examined. Science is concerned with the methodology of processes in the physical world, i.e. it deals with 'how' and not 'why'. Thus scientists are not concerned with why gravity exists but how gravity influences bodies to shape this universe.



    The scientific method is limited in that it can only deduce rules by repeated observation of physical phenomena. Thus the question of the existence of God does not and cannot fall into the realm of scientific thought because science deals with the mechanisms of events and phenomena within the universe i.e. the tangible and not the intangible. To test the hypothesis to apply scientific proof for or against God, one would effectively have said that God is "testable'. Therefore, logically one would conclude God to be within the universe since God must be physically tangible in order to test. Since God is tangible and contained within the universe, God must be limited and therefore cannot be God.



    Thus scientists are falling into the same trap as the blind followers of religion that is they are implicitly defining a role to God as the 'one who makes things work'. Since scientists have explained how things work the question of God does not arise. Those who argue from this angle have falsely assumed an attribute/essence of God in the same way Christians say God has a son or is Love.



    To prove or disprove the existence of a Creator we need to go beyond the limitations of the scientific method and proceed rationally for it is only the rational thought which has the ability to deal with an issue like this.



    The rational thought



    Man progresses as a result of his thoughts concerning everything around him. Thoughts are what distinguish man from other animals and without them man would be lost. Thought occurs when man receives information about something through his five senses. He then distinguishes it by linking it to previous information and experiences he has encountered. For example, a person comes across a plant. He knows that it is a plant due to previous knowledge of what a plant looks like. But only when he links it with previous information on the various types of plants will he be able to tell if it is edible or poisonous.



    Hence, just receiving information is not enough. It will remain only as information that we cannot appreciate or understand. However the process of linking it to previous information and distinguishing the information is the process of thought and is the key of understanding and progressing.



    Consequently, when man becomes convinced of the correctness of a thought, it becomes a concept, which he carries, thus, affecting his behaviour. For example, if we carry a concept of dislike of someone, it will affect our behaviour towards that person. So we see that carrying false ideas has serious implications for a person and if such false ideas are carried widely it has serious implications for society.



    Thus the idea and question of God has serious implications because the answer obtained becomes the very basis by which we understand the creation and purpose of man, life and the universe. Therefore, the method used should not merely be the rational thought but be comprehensive and agree with reality. Anything hypothetical or emotional should be rejected since their basis disagrees with ration and reality.



    The rational proof



    When we look around at everything we can sense one factor is shared by these things, they are all limited. By limited we mean that they have restrictions, a starting point and an ending point, and they all have definable attributes, i.e. they are finite.



    Man is born and he dies. There is no one alive who will not die. During his life span, he will grow to a certain shape, height and volume. The universe is defined as all the celestial bodies and planets. All these objects have a certain mass, shape, volume and so on. The life span of a star may be very long, but a point in time will come when it will cease to exist.



    The universe is large, but is still a 'finite' space. No scientist could ever prove using hard facts that the universe has no bounds. In fact when they say the universe arose from a Big Bang and is expanding they inherently admit it is finite in size, otherwise it could not expand! There is nothing in reality, which is unlimited. No matter how hard we try, man is unable to find anything unlimited around him. All he can perceive is the finite and limited.



    A further attribute of everything around us is that they are all needy and dependent in order to continue existing. They are not self-sustaining or independent. Man has needs. He has to satisfy in order to survive. He has organic needs. Man must eat and drink if he is to survive. If he does not he will die. We see need and dependency in plants and animals. They depend on other parts of the food chain for their existence. The water cycle is dependent on the sun, which is dependent on the laws of the galaxies and of burning mass, and so on... Nothing man can perceive is self-subsistent. So things exist, but do not have the power of existence. They cannot control when they die or when other bodies die.



    There is one fact that emerges from all this. If something is limited and finite, and does not have the power to be self-subsistent then it must have been created. Applying this to everything we see will bring us to a conclusion. If everything in the universe is created because it has not the power of being in existence on its own, and is finite and limited, then there must be a Creator. This Creator by contrast has to be unlimited and not needy and dependent on anything to bring it into, or sustain its existence.



    The universe; the sum of finite and dependent objects is finite and dependent - but dependent on what? It is dependent on something to start and sustain life; and something to plan and develop life.



    The only rational and intellectual solution to the question of creation is that there is a Creator, which has accounted for all that we see and perceive. Ration tells us that nothing can be created without a creator. Ultimately there must be a Creator who is unlimited in every aspect.



    Some scientists challenge this with a theory that everything depends on something for existence, which in turn depends upon something for existence, and so on ad infinitum. This theory is irrational, as it does not explain how anything came into existence in the first place. It uses an idea of ' Infinity’, which we know does not exist in reality. It does not, or even make an attempt, to explain-the very first step in the sequence. It is illogical and incomplete in its theory, and far from being scientific. If at its basis the theory is weak, how is it possible to trust the proceeding theoretical argument for the creation of the universe?



    Conclusion




    Hence, looking at any planet in the universe, contemplating on any phase of life, or comprehending any aspect of man provides a conclusive evidence for the existence of a Creator, what Muslims call Allah (swt).



    This intellectual proof of the existence of Allah (swt) is an understanding open for everyone and obligatory for all Muslims to be convinced of. Each person must explore to the limit of his understanding. Blind belief has no place in Islam. Believing through instinctive emotions is unreliable and dangerous as emotions can change and add error to ones belief and actions. And if the basis of the belief is irrational and weak, how can a system of life be built upon it?
    Proof of God

    “Whoever puts his trust in Allah, sufficient is Allah for him.”
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    Re: Proof of God

    omg! wow so much to read
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    Re: Proof of God

    Greetings,

    There is no such thing as a proof that god exists; if there were then everyone would believe in god. The article claims its arguments to be "intellectual" and "rational"; they are nothing of the sort.

    Peace
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    Re: Proof of God

    Greetings and peace czgibson;
    There is no such thing as a proof that god exists; if there were then everyone would believe in god.
    I have to agree with you, and not only would everyone believe, they would probably all believe in the same way through the same religion.

    It seems that God is not interested in rearanging the stars to spell out a convincing message in the night sky, he seems to convince us as individuals and we need to find him ourselves.

    Things have happened in my life that convince me God exists, but this proof would not convince others, faith is a strange thing.

    Take care and have a nice day,

    Eric
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    Re: Proof of God

    Greetings,
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    Things have happened in my life that convince me God exists, but this proof would not convince others, faith is a strange thing.
    I agree with you. Faith is definitely a personal thing.

    Peace
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    Re: Proof of God

    There is no such thing as a proof that god exists; if there were then everyone would believe in god. The article claims its arguments to be "intellectual" and "rational"; they are nothing of the sort.
    I agree with you in some respects. I believe there is conclusive evidence that there is a God, however, as bro Eric put it, it's not God "rearanging the stars to spell out a convincing message", rather it's something more indirect but nonetheless still convincing.
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    Re: Proof of God

    i believe that this wrld with all of its complex things etc could not have just come by luck....
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    Re: Proof of God

    rather it's something more indirect but nonetheless still convincing.
    Is that statement not a contradiction, since you believe that "God" seperated the moon to just a few. Could you get anymore "indirect" than that?
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    Re: Proof of God



    Lets go through an exercise, shalll we?

    (for anyone who wants to participate)

    Q1 - If there was no God, how did everything we have in nature and non-nature come to be?

    (one word answers are welcome....i know the answer most of you will give, but for fun's sake, entertain me )
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    Re: Proof of God

    Is that statement not a contradiction, since you believe that "God" seperated the moon to just a few. Could you get anymore "indirect" than that?
    Yes, and it is the same with someone who is blind and deaf.....If someone is trying to give the person direction to somewhere, the deaf and blind person will think that the guide's help is indirect, but really, the guide's help is direct, but he percieve's it not.

    I hope these words of mine have some effect on your concepts.
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Is that statement not a contradiction, since you believe that "God" seperated the moon to just a few. Could you get anymore "indirect" than that?
    When the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) split the moon by the leave of Allah, it was a miracle for those present. I would never present you with such facts as evidence because it is not proof in any sense of the word.

    Rather I turn to the Quran for proof - and I'm sure you've had this explained to you before.

    The Quran is imitable nature of the Quran.

    The agreement of the Quran with modern scientific facts.

    A nice one which is no one has even tried to explain so far is the word count repititions in the Quran: -

    http://www.islamicboard.com/172587-post14.html
    http://www.islamicboard.com/171261-post12.html
    http://www.islamicboard.com/170015-post7.html

    There are without doubt more of those in the Quran, but those are the ones which members of this forum have verified.

    To present conclusive proof doesnt however mean everyone will believe - just like the pagans who witnessed the miracles of the Prophet Muhammad - not everyone believes even if conclusive proof is given.

    Peace.
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    Re: Proof of God

    Q1 - If there was no God, how did everything we have in nature and non-nature come to be?
    Well, who said anything has come to be. Perhaps you are the only one true living thing and everything you percieve around you is all generated from your deep coma, your brain is pulling off the best mind trick ever. Would love you to try and prove me wrong!
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    Re: Proof of God

    Well, who said anything has come to be. Perhaps you are the only one true living thing and everything you percieve around you is all generated from your deep coma, your brain is pulling off the best mind trick ever. Would love you to try and prove me wrong!
    Urm......the mind cannot create images of people it hasn't seen seen before, therefore, all these people we see are real, if this was a mind trick then there wouldn't be any people in our lives.....

    Also......prove to me that this life is a deep coma..........
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    Re: Proof of God

    the mind cannot create images of people it hasn't seen seen before
    I can't believe you are taking the bait. can you prove your statement? and if you can and I doubt it then how do you knoiw the face you see is being fed to you by a "nueron plams beamer" that sends undetectable fdw's ("face depiction waves") direct to your brain? Go on prove me wrong
    Last edited by root; 02-24-2006 at 09:44 PM.
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    I can't believe you are taking the bait. can you prove your statement?
    It is scientific fact....

    WHY SHOULD I PROVE MY STATEMENT? It's your statement of being in a coma that needs proof.....Mine is logical, your's is just a theory, like darwinism....
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    Re: Proof of God

    It is scientific fact....
    Good, the source will be easy to find. can I have the source please & your evidence also that fdw's don't exist
    Last edited by root; 02-24-2006 at 09:48 PM.
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Good, the source will be easy to find. can I have the source please & your evidence also that fdw's don't exist
    I learnt it from my science teacher...

    I dunno which book, i'll ask him what book it was on monday, make sure you are here on Monday after 8pm (UK time)...

    Also, i tried it myself, it just doesn't work, try it yourself mate....try and make out soemone who you have never met......
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Well, who said anything has come to be. Perhaps you are the only one true living thing and everything you percieve around you is all generated from your deep coma, your brain is pulling off the best mind trick ever. Would love you to try and prove me wrong!
    hehe actually this is something to work with.

    Descartes was thinking along the same lines no?

    Q2. Now even if you're just a brain, how did that brain come to be. At the very least we're saying you exist, no?

    format_quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    I can't believe you are taking the bait. can you prove your statement? and if you can and I doubt it then how do you knoiw the face you see is being fed to you by a "nueron plams beamer" that sends undetectable fdw's ("face depiction waves") direct to your brain? Go on prove me wrong
    LOL! Okadd the neuron palms beamer to something that must have had to be created
    Last edited by muslimahh; 02-24-2006 at 09:54 PM.
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    Re: Proof of God

    Root - could you possibly reply to me. I would like to participate in this debate.
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    Re: Proof of God

    AZIM - When the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) split the moon by the leave of Allah, it was a miracle for those present. I would never present you with such facts as evidence because it is not proof in any sense of the word.
    Root - could you possibly reply to me. I would like to participate in this debate.
    Thier was no need to respond since your post said everything that needed to be said. I would never present you with such facts as evidence because it is not proof in any sense of the word.
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