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Proof of God

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    Proof of God (OP)


    The Islamic belief and subsequently the Islamic way of life are premised on an intellectual basis. Therefore, Islam is neither a religion nor a set of values and rituals that arise from blind faith. Rather, Islam is an intellectual belief from which emanates a comprehensive socio-political and economic system. To understand the unique system that Islam offers necessitates the explanation of the Islamic belief i.e. the belief in God, Allah (swt) and the word of God, and the Qur'aan.


    God: The arguments



    Today if you mention God then you'll probably get a negative reaction. It has become the trend to get on with life and not bother to ask the question whether there is a God or not. In fact this question was not even asked much in the days of old, when you simply had to believe in God or be persecuted. Therefore, it is not surprising that people find it easy to believe that the existence of God is a myth, simply because they have never thought deeply about the idea.



    It is because people continued to believe in God blindly i.e. blind faith, rather than use ration, that science and its attempted explanations of universal phenomena was hailed as the 'new (false) God'.



    But let us deal with both arguments - for and against the existence of a Creator - from a rational perspective. A common argument by many Christians and some other religions is that God is the God of many abstract attributes such as Love, Peace, Mercy which indeed are admirable qualities for human beings to aspire to. This characterisation of God is based upon an implicit assumption that God can be likened to human beings thus the attempt to understand God in a human framework. Accordingly, we find in some societies, such as early Greek, that individual gods were used to represent single human attributes, and in other cultures gods have the quality to reproduce.



    The question this begs is whether the essence of an unlimited Creator is understandable through a limited, imperfect human mind when God lies beyond our perception? Rational thought would dictate that if God exists then knowledge of God's attributes can only come from itself. Therefore, famine in the world leading to the deaths of millions would not deny the Justice, Mercy or Love of a supposed God, but would only if one attributed the human essence to God. Similarly, if one understands God as the Governor and Controller of the universe then the notion of God dying is nonsensical. This is the failure of Christianity and indeed all religions, as their belief becomes a matter of blind faith. Consequently, they allow themselves to be plagued by rational contradictions, which inevitably lead to intellectual rise to disprove the existence of God. Are these arguments valid? To understand the validity of any proposed argument the premise should be examined. Science is concerned with the methodology of processes in the physical world, i.e. it deals with 'how' and not 'why'. Thus scientists are not concerned with why gravity exists but how gravity influences bodies to shape this universe.



    The scientific method is limited in that it can only deduce rules by repeated observation of physical phenomena. Thus the question of the existence of God does not and cannot fall into the realm of scientific thought because science deals with the mechanisms of events and phenomena within the universe i.e. the tangible and not the intangible. To test the hypothesis to apply scientific proof for or against God, one would effectively have said that God is "testable'. Therefore, logically one would conclude God to be within the universe since God must be physically tangible in order to test. Since God is tangible and contained within the universe, God must be limited and therefore cannot be God.



    Thus scientists are falling into the same trap as the blind followers of religion that is they are implicitly defining a role to God as the 'one who makes things work'. Since scientists have explained how things work the question of God does not arise. Those who argue from this angle have falsely assumed an attribute/essence of God in the same way Christians say God has a son or is Love.



    To prove or disprove the existence of a Creator we need to go beyond the limitations of the scientific method and proceed rationally for it is only the rational thought which has the ability to deal with an issue like this.



    The rational thought



    Man progresses as a result of his thoughts concerning everything around him. Thoughts are what distinguish man from other animals and without them man would be lost. Thought occurs when man receives information about something through his five senses. He then distinguishes it by linking it to previous information and experiences he has encountered. For example, a person comes across a plant. He knows that it is a plant due to previous knowledge of what a plant looks like. But only when he links it with previous information on the various types of plants will he be able to tell if it is edible or poisonous.



    Hence, just receiving information is not enough. It will remain only as information that we cannot appreciate or understand. However the process of linking it to previous information and distinguishing the information is the process of thought and is the key of understanding and progressing.



    Consequently, when man becomes convinced of the correctness of a thought, it becomes a concept, which he carries, thus, affecting his behaviour. For example, if we carry a concept of dislike of someone, it will affect our behaviour towards that person. So we see that carrying false ideas has serious implications for a person and if such false ideas are carried widely it has serious implications for society.



    Thus the idea and question of God has serious implications because the answer obtained becomes the very basis by which we understand the creation and purpose of man, life and the universe. Therefore, the method used should not merely be the rational thought but be comprehensive and agree with reality. Anything hypothetical or emotional should be rejected since their basis disagrees with ration and reality.



    The rational proof



    When we look around at everything we can sense one factor is shared by these things, they are all limited. By limited we mean that they have restrictions, a starting point and an ending point, and they all have definable attributes, i.e. they are finite.



    Man is born and he dies. There is no one alive who will not die. During his life span, he will grow to a certain shape, height and volume. The universe is defined as all the celestial bodies and planets. All these objects have a certain mass, shape, volume and so on. The life span of a star may be very long, but a point in time will come when it will cease to exist.



    The universe is large, but is still a 'finite' space. No scientist could ever prove using hard facts that the universe has no bounds. In fact when they say the universe arose from a Big Bang and is expanding they inherently admit it is finite in size, otherwise it could not expand! There is nothing in reality, which is unlimited. No matter how hard we try, man is unable to find anything unlimited around him. All he can perceive is the finite and limited.



    A further attribute of everything around us is that they are all needy and dependent in order to continue existing. They are not self-sustaining or independent. Man has needs. He has to satisfy in order to survive. He has organic needs. Man must eat and drink if he is to survive. If he does not he will die. We see need and dependency in plants and animals. They depend on other parts of the food chain for their existence. The water cycle is dependent on the sun, which is dependent on the laws of the galaxies and of burning mass, and so on... Nothing man can perceive is self-subsistent. So things exist, but do not have the power of existence. They cannot control when they die or when other bodies die.



    There is one fact that emerges from all this. If something is limited and finite, and does not have the power to be self-subsistent then it must have been created. Applying this to everything we see will bring us to a conclusion. If everything in the universe is created because it has not the power of being in existence on its own, and is finite and limited, then there must be a Creator. This Creator by contrast has to be unlimited and not needy and dependent on anything to bring it into, or sustain its existence.



    The universe; the sum of finite and dependent objects is finite and dependent - but dependent on what? It is dependent on something to start and sustain life; and something to plan and develop life.



    The only rational and intellectual solution to the question of creation is that there is a Creator, which has accounted for all that we see and perceive. Ration tells us that nothing can be created without a creator. Ultimately there must be a Creator who is unlimited in every aspect.



    Some scientists challenge this with a theory that everything depends on something for existence, which in turn depends upon something for existence, and so on ad infinitum. This theory is irrational, as it does not explain how anything came into existence in the first place. It uses an idea of ' Infinity’, which we know does not exist in reality. It does not, or even make an attempt, to explain-the very first step in the sequence. It is illogical and incomplete in its theory, and far from being scientific. If at its basis the theory is weak, how is it possible to trust the proceeding theoretical argument for the creation of the universe?



    Conclusion




    Hence, looking at any planet in the universe, contemplating on any phase of life, or comprehending any aspect of man provides a conclusive evidence for the existence of a Creator, what Muslims call Allah (swt).



    This intellectual proof of the existence of Allah (swt) is an understanding open for everyone and obligatory for all Muslims to be convinced of. Each person must explore to the limit of his understanding. Blind belief has no place in Islam. Believing through instinctive emotions is unreliable and dangerous as emotions can change and add error to ones belief and actions. And if the basis of the belief is irrational and weak, how can a system of life be built upon it?
    Proof of God

    “Whoever puts his trust in Allah, sufficient is Allah for him.”

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    Re: Proof of God

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    fossils of what exactly?
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    fossils of what exactly?
    Any ones you like. Dinosaurs. Do you think dinosaurs existed? Neanderthals. Do you think they did too?

    Did these creatures exist way back then or is the fossil record fraudulent?
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
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    Re: Proof of God

    Dinosaurs, yes. Neanderthals, no.
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    Did these creatures exist way back then or is the fossil record fraudulent?
    a fossil record could be of any other creature. i mean how much can science prove these things? how true are they? sure they explain things in a logical way, but believe it or not, that is your belief. yor belief is that science is logical and explains everything! did u actually see those fossil records and experimented them? couldnt there be exaggerations? like anyone with the intention to blow religion away could and would do anything to achieve his/her goal.

    Proof of God


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    Re: Proof of God

    Greetings,
    format_quote Originally Posted by Tagrid View Post
    yor belief is that science is logical and explains everything!
    Science is often logical, but many of its discoveries rely on luck as well.

    like anyone with the intention to blow religion away could and would do anything to achieve his/her goal.
    Are you suggesting that modern biology is a vast conspiracy to get rid of religion?

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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Science is often logical, but many of its discoveries rely on luck as well.
    luck, faith, belief....dont they come from the same branch? they are connected in soume way..... and yes, of course you would say science is logical. < like i said before....but that is you belief.

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
    Are you suggesting that modern biology is a vast conspiracy to get rid of religion?
    nope....not all of science. but there are certain aspects of science that is false

    Peace
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    Any ones you like. Dinosaurs. Do you think dinosaurs existed? Neanderthals. Do you think they did too?

    Did these creatures exist way back then or is the fossil record fraudulent?
    In the Bible in the book of Genesis, it does not specify exactly what creatures God created in the seven days of creation. So dinosaurs very well may have been, and probably were part of God's plan of creation. Ah here's Genesis chapter 1.

    Genesis 1:

    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

    5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

    7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

    9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

    10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

    11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

    12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

    14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

    15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

    16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

    17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

    18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

    19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

    20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

    23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

    24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

    25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

    30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

    31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
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    Re: Proof of God

    Greetings,
    format_quote Originally Posted by Tagrid View Post
    luck, faith, belief....dont they come from the same branch?
    The same branch of what, exactly?

    they are connected in soume way..... and yes, of course you would say science is logical. < like i said before....but that is you belief.
    Science often uses logic. That is a fact, like it or not.

    nope....not all of science. but there are certain aspects of science that is false
    Who says modern biology is all of science?

    Peace
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    The same branch of what, exactly?
    like say luck is a sort of faith which is like belief innit?

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
    Science often uses logic. That is a fact, like it or not.
    if thta is how you argue, i can also argue that islam is the right path, believe it or not. but that is not how it is....u think science is logical because you believe it to be. if you dont believe in something, it never seems true to you. just like if you dont believe in someone, you wouldnt beleve that what that person is saying is true o not.

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
    Who says modern biology is all of science?
    i didnt say dat. in my previous post, i meant that not all aspects of biology is a conspiracy but certain aspects of it has gone too far. beyond what religion says.

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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    Dinosaurs, yes. Neanderthals, no.
    So the bones of the Neanderthals are...fakes by humans? Tests by God?

    How long ago did the dinosaurs live as far as you are concerned?
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    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
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    Re: Proof of God

    Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ [Link only for registered members]
    Dinosaurs, yes. Neanderthals, no.
    Partial DNA has been extracted from a neanderthal, the evidence is in the doubters cannot doubt anymore. Neanderthals existed and were not (probably) related to us. However, they existed and it cannot be denied.
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by The Architect View Post
    This is very conclusive evidence, and nice support for God's existence, but by no means, is it proof. We cannot prove that God exists, because we have not seem Him, we have not heard Him, we have not tasted God. We have had no physical contact with this being.
    So wouldn't that mean there is no evidence at all much less no conclusive evidence?

    I don't think human mind could create something like that. If we cannot truly fathom God, then how can we possibly create Him? The idea is ludicrous!
    Why? We all must accept that some people have created some Gods (unless you are a Hindu or the like). After all if Allah exists, Shiva must not. So it must be taken as a basic assumption that humans have invented Gods, and find them perfectly logical and satisfactory in every way.

    Science cannot explain God. He is not measurable, He is infinite. Science can measure heat because it is finite and in a form of energy, it cannot measure cold because cold is simply the absence of heat. We, living our own sinful lives...sin, evil is the absence of God, the absence of good.
    Science may be able to explain God. It is all a matter of asking the right questions and performing the right experiments. So far there has been no evidence of the existence of God, but that does not mean there never will be. The first experiment of the Royal Society was to weigh a dying man before and after death to find out how much his soul weighed. If they had found a positive result, that would have had religious implications don't you think?

    I believe in God, not because anyone has told me to, or because having a belief in God will benefit my life (although it is a nice little luxury), but because of all the things in life that I have chosen to put stock in, He is the only one that has never let me down.
    Can I assume that at some point in your life you had religious education classes, and in fact no one ever comes to any religion "spontaneously" - they have to be taught by someone?

    My belief in God has been strengthened by the massive downward spirals I've taken of late that I realize now were triggered by my own attempts to live a life without Him on my mind.
    It is well known that religiousity often occurs when people have serious emotional trauma.
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
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    MinAhlilHadeeth's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    So the bones of the Neanderthals are...fakes by humans? Tests by God?

    How long ago did the dinosaurs live as far as you are concerned?
    I have no idea how long ago the dinosaurs lived. Why does that matter? Yes the fossils are either fakes or misinterpretted.
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by Tagrid View Post
    a fossil record could be of any other creature.
    So not a dinosaur but another creature of the same bone structure? What other creature?

    i mean how much can science prove these things? how true are they? sure they explain things in a logical way, but believe it or not, that is your belief. yor belief is that science is logical and explains everything! did u actually see those fossil records and experimented them? couldnt there be exaggerations? like anyone with the intention to blow religion away could and would do anything to achieve his/her goal.
    Science can prove how old the bones are by testing them. They can find out roughly what period they come from by looking at the layers of Earth they were found in. They can assume common origins to create a relational-tree showing their nearest relatives. It is not a matter of belief, it is a matter of knowledge. There are Christian scientists, Jewish scientists, Hindu and atheist scientists, even some Muslim scientists. Science is open to all who are willing to open their minds - no belief is necessary. Dinosaurs were first discovered and studied in a time when there were no people trying to blow away science. When most scientists were Believers. All you have to do is learn with an open mind and you will see.
    Proof of God

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    I have no idea how long ago the dinosaurs lived. Why does that matter? Yes the fossils are either fakes or misinterpretted.
    I am curious about your beliefs - whether you are a Young Earther or not. If the fossils are fakes, who faked them?
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    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    I am curious about your beliefs - whether you are a Young Earther or not. If the fossils are fakes, who faked them?
    Some athiest scientist duhhhh!
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  22. #217
    root's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Proof of God

    Fossils cannot be fakes (most of the time). We have examples of fossils for species thought to be long extinct, then a live species is found and the reconstruction and representation of what the creature looked like were able to be assesed. The results were that the reconstructions are very accurate.

    Here is an example of one of many:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4493825.stm
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    Re: Proof of God

    cool.
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~ View Post
    Some athiest scientist duhhhh!
    But even religious scientists have found them. Anyone can find fossils if they look in the right place. You can wander along the beaches of southern Britain and find fossils. Are you saying there has been a massive conspiracy by some group of atheist scientists that stretches back over 2000 years (when the first dinosaur bones were dug up in China) and across the entire world from North America to East Asia?
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  26. #220
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    Re: Proof of God

    format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    But even religious scientists have found them. Anyone can find fossils if they look in the right place. You can wander along the beaches of southern Britain and find fossils. Are you saying there has been a massive conspiracy by some group of atheist scientists that stretches back over 2000 years (when the first dinosaur bones were dug up in China) and across the entire world from North America to East Asia?
    I believe dinosaurs existed silly. The neanderthal fossils or fake/misinterpretted.
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