This is an imagined discussion between a muslim and an atheist. But it is based on my actual discussions with atheists.
Muslim: Do you believe in God?
Atheist: There is no God. Can you prove that there is a God?
Muslim: The universe, the land, the see, the sky, the sun, the moon,….etc are all evidences that there is a God who has created the universe.
Atheist: Can I see and hear the God?
Muslim: You cannot see the God. We have the word of the God which is the Quran. The language of the Quran is Arabic. We –Arabs- know very well that the Quran cannot be written by a human being. The Quran has challenged the old Arabs to write something that resembles the Quran. The old Arabs were genius poets but they could not. Nowadays, some persons tried to write something that resembles the Quran, but they made themselves a joke.
Atheist: Then the Quran is for Arabs only.
Muslim: The Quran is the word of the God for all peoples. Indeed the Arabs can feel the greatness of the Quran more than the other peoples. But the other peoples can read the translation of the meanings of the Quran. They can see the wisdom of the Quran. They can see the scientific accuracy of the Quran.
Atheist: Can you give me an example of the wisdom of the Quran?
Muslim: Islam forbids homosexuality and sex outside marriage. We can see clearly that homosexuality and sex outside marriage caused the spread of AIDS which caused or will cause the death of millions of people. Besides, with Islam, a man can be sure that his son is really his son. But in western countries, a man cannot be sure that his son is really his son.
Atheist: I want to discuss the presence of the God. The universe is created by the God. Who has created the God.
Muslim: The God has not been created. The God is eternal.
Atheist: I can say that the universe is eternal.
Muslim: The universe is changeable, so it cannot be eternal.
Atheist: You did not convince me.
Muslim: I invite you to read the Quran. I invite you to rethink about the common secular idea that there is no God. It is a common idea, but it is completely wrong.
I think it's a very good post, probably got Root thinking
Make Dua for your Brothers and the Angels will make Dua for You!
Happy moments, Praise Allah
Difficult moments, Seek Allah
Quiet moments, Worship Allah
Painful moments, Trust Allah
Every moment, Thank Allah
If Allah brings you to it, He will bring you through it
I think it's a very good post, probably got Root thinking
No, Root thinks it is quite shocking!
Muslim: Islam forbids homosexuality and sex outside marriage. We can see clearly that homosexuality and sex outside marriage caused the spread of AIDS which caused or will cause the death of millions of people. Besides, with Islam, a man can be sure that his son is really his son. But in western countries, a man cannot be sure that his son is really his son.
Hence, I am comforted by the fact I am an Atheist and Catholism could equally claim what Islam offers even though both religions clearly like to avoid cultural and social implecations of such dribble that is quoted above, to say "islam" will prevent this & that is truly (in my opinion) ignorant to the extreme. But then again, ideological thinking nearly always is........
Muslim: The Quran is the word of the God for all peoples. Indeed the Arabs can feel the greatness of the Quran more than the other peoples. But the other peoples can read the translation of the meanings of the Quran. They can see the wisdom of the Quran. They can see the scientific accuracy of the Quran.
I can see neither of these things when I read the Qur'an in English translation. What's more, I'm constantly being told by Muslims that it's not possible to appreciate the Qur'an in anything other than Arabic, which gives rise to the feeling of exclusivity.
Atheist: Can you give me an example of the wisdom of the Quran?
Muslim: Islam forbids homosexuality and sex outside marriage. We can see clearly that homosexuality and sex outside marriage caused the spread of AIDS which caused or will cause the death of millions of people. Besides, with Islam, a man can be sure that his son is really his son. But in western countries, a man cannot be sure that his son is really his son.
This is laughably bigoted. If that's the best example of the "wisdom" to be found in the Qur'an, it's not surprising the atheist isn't convinced!
What's more, I'm constantly being told by Muslims that it's not possible to appreciate the Qur'an in anything other than Arabic, which gives rise to the feeling of exclusivity.
This is not true. While you may not be able to appreciate the linguistic beauty of the Qur'anic arabic, there are many other aspects to the Qur'anic style which can be appreciated in any language. For example, please see the reflections of an atheist on the Qur'an here: http://www.islamicboard.com/188288-post1.html
Peace.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
I can see neither of these things when I read the Qur'an in English translation. What's more, I'm constantly being told by Muslims that it's not possible to appreciate the Qur'an in anything other than Arabic, which gives rise to the feeling of exclusivity.
You can know more about the scientific accuracy of the Quran by visiting the following site:
But in western countries, a man cannot be sure that his son is really his son.
I disagree. For some people living with loose morals this can be said. But thier are also many people with morals equal to any muslim. Surely this statement cannot apply to all in western countries.
The arguements about the existence of God are good though.
Hi czgibson,
Hi root,
Did you read about the scientific accuracy of the Quran?
What do you think?
I've seen many examples of this before, and if you read some of my other posts on the forum you'll see that I find arguments of this kind to be pitifully weak. I strongly suspect root feels the same way.
Here's an example of the sort of propaganda that proponents of the "scientific miracles" argument expound, together with my response to it:
format_quote Originally Posted by akulion
I mean if you look at this thing:
[center]
In the Quran Allah(swt) describes when our solar system will come to an end and judgment day will begin. The verse is as follows:
Al-Quran, Chapter 55 Ar-Rahman, Verse 37
And when the sky is torn apart and becomes (rosy) red like ointment
1500 years later using the Hubble telescope scientists at NASA discovered how a dying star system looks like (Figure 1).
How could have Mohammed(pbuh) have known about such a fact when such powerful telescopes as the Hubble didn't even exist in those days?
Allah(swt) created the universe and all that it contains and it is he who can best describe such phenomenon with such perfection in his revelation to mankind, yet another proof!
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
OK, now this is exactly the sort of argument I find least convincing. For a start, the ayah from the Qur'an says nothing about the solar system or what a dying star system looks like. The words are not mentioned, because they are scientific labels devised by scientists. The section you've quoted from simply says that the sky will be torn apart and will turn red. Do you think the Qur'an is unique in having made prophecies like this?
The quotation does not imply knowledge about dying star systems on the part of the author, unlike the scientific detail that can be found on the Hubble telescope webpage. What has actually happened here is that a poetic phrase from the Qur'an has been reinterpreted in the light of scientific discovery.
Poetic language, such as that of the Qur'an, can be open to many interpretations, not all of which may be immediately clear. If someone finds a detail of scientific discovery that happens to correspond with an earlier piece of writing, does that mean the earlier writer had divine foreknowledge? Of course not.
The ancient Greek philosopher Democritus (c. 460-370 BCE) proposed that matter is made up of atoms. The fact that he was essentially right about this was not proven until centuries later. How could he have known? Was he divinely inspired?
That's the essence of my view on the "scientific miracles" argument.
Taken from this thread. (You can see the picture there).
If you look at post #24 from the same thread, you'll find an answer that's much better than mine, since it proves that if the "scientific miracle" argument is true in this case, then Allah made a mistake. So, from an atheist or a Muslim point of view, the "scientific miracles" argument should not be trusted.
Hi czgibson,
The site that I invited you to visit in post number 8 in this thread contains what some western scientists have said about the scientific accuracy of the Quran.Most or all of them are not muslims. Again, I invite you to visit that site and rethink.
I disagree. For some people living with loose morals this can be said. But thier are also many people with morals equal to any muslim. Surely this statement cannot apply to all in western countries.
The arguements about the existence of God are good though.
You cannot deny that homosexuality and sex outside marriage have caused the spread of AIDS in the western countries, can you?
Hi czgibson,
Hi root,
Did you read about the scientific accuracy of the Quran?
What do you think?
The bible also claims this and on the surface is every bit as convincing as the koran. I think you have several thousand hadiths, and every time a scientific discovery is made every single sentence or word is deeply scanned to try to get a "close" match, it does not surprise me that from time to time you get a hit, and I tend to judge such issues on the misses and not the hits?
Oddly enough
I can see neither of these things when I read the Qur'an in English translation. What's more, I'm constantly being told by Muslims that it's not possible to appreciate the Qur'an in anything other than Arabic, which gives rise to the feeling of exclusivity.
This is laughably bigoted. If that's the best example of the "wisdom" to be found in the Qur'an, it's not surprising the atheist isn't convinced!
Peace
Salam
say that again to all the atheists that chose Islam as a way of life.
You only have half the way to islam left. You say"there is not God" -
we Say "there is no God, but Allah"
You are half way there may, Allah guid you.
Hi czgibson,
The site that I invited you to visit in post number 8 in this thread contains what some western scientists have said about the scientific accuracy of the Quran.Most or all of them are not muslims. Again, I invite you to visit that site and rethink.
Did you read my post? I've seen this kind of nonsense before, and I've given you my view on it. You can either accept that or give me a convincing reason to change my view, rather than just telling me to rethink, which constitutes the fallacy argumentum ad nauseam.
You've made an effort at giving me a reason to change my view, by telling me that a number of Western scientists have stated their belief that the Qur'an is scientifically accurate, a claim I've heard many times before. You also say that "most or all" of them are not Muslims. This leads me to suspect that their motives for making such statements were not entirely pure. After all, if they believed the Qur'an was scientifically accurate to the point of being miraculous, they would all be Muslims now.
Think of the popular and lucrative industry of scientific interpretations of the Qur'an that has grown around the statements of these scientists, and you can be sure that they have made significant amounts of money out of it. None of their claims are taken seriously by modern scholarship, and the "scientific miracles" argument is even opposed by some Muslim scholars. The fact that these scientists have not converted to Islam shows that even they themselves do not believe their own words.
See the following articles:
MODERATOR'S COMMENT: PLEASE DO NOT POST LINKTS TO SUCH VENEMOUS ANTI-ISALMIC WEBSITES. YOU ARE FREE TO RAISE ANY OF THE POINTS YOURSELF.
I would like, if I may ask you questions and get a dialoque going.
Quick note about me: I am in the West, Pacific Ocean area born and raised. I was raised in the Christian Church and reverted to Islam.
I would like to ask both of you to reply with a short summary as to why you are Atheists and when, how you relaized you were Atheists. Also, what is the major points that have shaped your decision.
I hope you accept to conversate with me on this.
Please understand I am just looking for a nice friendly conversation as I do not know any Atheists. I know someone at my work who told me they were Agnostic. But we really do not tlak at all about religion.
I totally respect your decisions and views and hope we can have a friendly chat.
This is not true. While you may not be able to appreciate the linguistic beauty of the Qur'anic arabic, there are many other aspects to the Qur'anic style which can be appreciated in any language. For example, please see the reflections of an atheist on the Qur'an here: http://www.islamicboard.com/188288-post1.html
Peace.
Peace be with you all,
One of the points I would like to make on this subject.
80% of all the Arabic words in the Qur'an can fit on a 26 page pocket sized book.
Once we learn this small book, we already know 80% of the Quranic Arabic which is how Allah made it easy for mankind.
This is antoher one of these Quran Miracles not a lot of people talk about.
Aside from that, since all Qur'ans are the same in Arabic, this is a Universal Arabic that all Arab Countries could understand and the wording is basic words. No major words like in English.
The Arabic in the Qur'an is VERY easy for an English Speaking native like myself. The rolling of the tounge and the "hacking" sound we typically associate with Arabic is much differnet in Quranic Arabic.
I tried to learn Arabic but my English tounge had so many problems with these sounds. I realized I was learning a dialect from Morocco and now that I am learning Quranic it is so simple!
ALhamdulliah Allah has guided me and given me the knowledge to accept his duties.
MODERATOR'S COMMENT: PLEASE DO NOT POST LINKTS TO SUCH VENEMOUS ANTI-ISALMIC WEBSITES. YOU ARE FREE TO RAISE ANY OF THE POINTS YOURSELF.
I'm sorry if anyone has been upset by these articles, and that you consider them to be so "venemous". (Could I ask which mod I'm talking to, by the way?) I have raised points mentioned in the articles already, and I was simply posting the links in order to back up what I've said.
I'd say those articles are more 'anti-charlatan' than anti-Islamic. Perhaps you could point out the words in them which you consider to be anti-Islamic? After all, they are only putting forward a point of view that is shared by some Islamic scholars.
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister Khadija
I would like to ask both of you to reply with a short summary as to why you are Atheists and when, how you relaized you were Atheists. Also, what is the major points that have shaped your decision.
I've already answered this question a few times in various threads. Check post #39 on this thread:
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