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  1. #1
    Idris's Avatar
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    Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

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    The orthodox doctrine is logically impossible. As Huston Smith, scholar of comparative religion, points out, it would not have been logically impossible if the creed said that Jesus was somewhat divine and somewhat human. But this is expressly what the creed denies. For orthodox Christians, Jesus cannot possess only some human qualities; he must possess all. He must be fully human. At the same time, he cannot possess only some divine qualities; he must have all. He must be fully divine. This is impossible because to be fully divine means one has to be free of human limitations. If he has only one human limitation then he is not God. But according to creed he has every human limitation. How, then, can he be God? Huston Smith calls this a blatant contradiction. In his book The World’s Religions, he writes:

    We may begin with the doctrine of the Incarnation, which took several centuries to fix into place. Holding as it does that in Christ God assumed a human body, it affirms that Christ was God-Man; simultaneously both fully God and fully man. To say that such a contention is paradoxical seems a charitable way to put the matter — it looks more like a blatant contradiction. If the doctrine held that Christ was half human and half divine, or that he was divine in certain respects, while being human in others, our minds would not balk. (The World’s Religions, p. 340).
    Can Jesus be man and God?

    No

    God has his limits in doing Godly thing too.

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    Idris's Avatar
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Sister I see that your Way of Life is Muslim and as Muslim we don't believe that Jesus was a God-Man.

    It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works
    Like I siad god has his limits too like Us, to doing godly things.

    Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary.
    So he just stop being God and siad "today I am going to be man" So who was God then God turned in to a man?


    This is something that requires faith and trust on our part – just because we don’t understand something does not mean it is not true.
    No that is called Blind believe
    Last edited by Idris; 07-31-2006 at 05:34 PM.

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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Salaam,

    islamgyal,,you are throwing mixed signals..

    Are you or are you not a muslim?
    Muslim do not believe that creation can be god...

    and not man can be god.

    Do you undrstand what it mean to say ,THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH AND MOHAMMAD (SAW) IS A PROPHET?

    NO GOD BUT ALLAH.

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    evangel's Avatar
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idris View Post
    Can Jesus be man and God?

    No

    God has his limits in doing Godly thing too.

    Idris, I can't believe you said this not once but twice. My God created the whole universe by speaking it into existence, He is all powerful. He can do anything. Do you truly believe in a god that is unable to do something? Do you believe that if the God who spoke everything into being, said to a teenage Jewish girl "You are with child." it would not be so? Do believe that if God chose to take a part of Himself and place it in the child He couldn't? Do you worship a god of your logic or the Creator, the great I AM?
    Believing in a philosophy has limits, true belief in God brings endless possibilities.

    John 1:12,13 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

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    Idris's Avatar
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    God has his limits in doing Godly thing too.
    Idris, I can't believe you said this not once but twice. My God created the whole universe by speaking it into existence, He is all powerful. He can do anything. Do you truly believe in a god that is unable to do something? Do you believe that if the God who spoke everything into being, said to a teenage Jewish girl "You are with child." it would not be so?
    Only a fool would say that god can do anything...

    Can God make another God?
    Can god kick you out off his kingdom? (If yes where)
    Can God make a stone so heavy that he cannot pick it up?

    Last, can God make himself man and be God at the same time?

    Answer is NO to all the above because God has his limits in doing Godly thing.

    In addition, becoming a God-man is ungodly … I mean want the objective of being a God-man?

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    Kittygyal's Avatar
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim View Post
    Salaam,

    islamgyal,,you are throwing mixed signals..

    Are you or are you not a muslim?
    Muslim do not believe that creation can be god...

    and not man can be god.

    Do you undrstand what it mean to say ,THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH AND MOHAMMAD (SAW) IS A PROPHET?

    NO GOD BUT ALLAH.
    i am a revert, and by the way i was just referring to brother Idris what is meant from a christain point of view

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    Idris's Avatar
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    well Iam waiting for some christains point of views.... Only one has told me his view.

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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idris View Post
    Only a fool would say that god can do anything...

    Can God make another God?
    Can God make another God?
    Can God make a stone so heavy that he cannot pick it up?

    Last, can God make himself man and be God at the same time?

    Answer is NO to all the above because God has his limits in doing Godly thing.

    In addition, becoming a God-man is ungodly … I mean want the objective of being a God-man?

    Greetings:

    The statement should be better read as " God can do anything that He wills to do."

    Can God make another God?

    As the LORD your God is ONE God, this a completely illogical question that does not warrant asking in the first place.


    Can God kick anyone out of His kingdom?

    The question would be better asked " Can God get anyone into His Kingdom?"


    As for being "kicked" out of Gods Kingdom, the actual problem is getting into the Kingdom in the first place. As every one of us has sinned against God, we have all denied ourselves entry into His Kingdom by making ourselves UNCLEAN. And no UNCLEAN person could exist in the Purity of His Kingdom.

    God will not "kick" anyone out who He has determined to be there, and He is SO detemined that we get there, that He gave us His Son as the Way in.
    For it is only by God forgiving us for our sin, and making us "CLEAN " that we have any right to that which we have denied ourselves.
    God forgives all who beleive that Jesus died for their sin, and CLEANSES them from all uncleaness by "washing" them down with the Blood shed by His Son.
    Only when God has so purified a person, are they CLEAN enough to enter Gods Kingdom.
    And after doing all these things to guarantee our entry, God will in no wise "kick" out anyone.


    Can God make a stone so heavy that he cannot pick it up?


    Someone once said that, Yes, God could do that. But by His very own nature He would not do so.


    You then stated:
    Answer is NO to all the above because God has his limits in doing Godly thing

    As none of these things could be considered to be Godly in the first place, then how can the answer be NO?


    In addition, becoming a God-man is ungodly … I mean want the objective of being a God-man?[

    It is hard to understand how God could become man. But it is better to try and understand why He should do so.
    Through reading,and understanding the Bible we begin to realise that God does not want us to try and understand how He could become a man, but why He chose to do so.
    We do wrong things in Gods eyes, as did our parents, grand-parents, great grand-parents, all the way back to the first man.
    Not everything we do wrong is intentional, we just cant seem to help it. Even the most religious of men are at times proud, jealous, unkind in the things they do and say at times etc. etc. There is something "rotten" about mankind that makes him "ungodly".
    Everything in life that has any "rotteness" dies evetually, which is why we all die.
    God originally made it very clear to man, that anything he done that was "rotten" or sinful would result in death and final Judgement.

    As God Himself is the Judge, and His judgement is absolutely just, He would not be able to "let anyone off". However, He agreed that He would accept the death of an innocent man (innocent in the fact that he had never once disobeyed God) as a payment for the sins of the people.

    The problem now was that no such man had ever lived. This is why Jesus came to this earth. Having no human father, and an undefiled (virgin) mother, none of the "rotteness" was inherited. His inheritance was pure, for God was His Father.
    Jesus never disobeyed His Father. Most of us have broken this commandment of Gods at least once, and just this one act of diobedience is enough to make us sinners. On the final Judgement, just one thing done wrong makes us guilty before the Sinless One.
    Jesus kept every commandment of God that we have been unable to do, and therefore became "the innocent man" paying the price (death) of the sins of other men.

    As it is totally impossible for any normal human to live a completely sin free life, then if someone were to do so, that person would have to be more than a "normal human".

    God Himself, sent His own Son to live and experience life and all its temptations and hardships,and still keep the Commandments that He had made and therfore not come to Final Judgement.

    And He done this to make possible a way for sinners to have the price of their sins paid for before they have to enter the Court of Final Judgement.

    No mere man can satisfy the Justice of a Holy God.

    Albee

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    evangel's Avatar
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by albee View Post
    Greetings:

    The statement should be better read as " God can do anything that He wills to do."


    Thank you brother and good to see you here.






    2 Corinthians 2:15-16
    For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God’s word; but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.

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    Hussein radi's Avatar
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    you people act like you understand god ,but believe me, He(sw) is way beyond your Intelligence.

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    evangel's Avatar
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hussein radi View Post
    you people act like you understand god ,but believe me, He(sw) is way beyond your Intelligence.


    Amen to that brother, if He wasn't He wouldn't be much of a God!



    Psalm 84:1,2
    How lovely is thy dwelling place,
    O LORD of hosts!
    My soul longs, yea, faints
    for the courts of the LORD;
    my heart and flesh sing for joy
    to the living God.

  15. #12
    Woodrow's Avatar
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    May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه

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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    These are totaly meaningless questions. They are not even question, they are stating a paradox that by definition can not be done, so there is not even a challange being made.
    Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?




  16. #13
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    The issue is not "is it possible" for God to be a man.... the issue is what does the Christian mean when they say this. To me, it's not that the sentence is good or bad, it's that I have yet to find a Christian in 4 years who can answer the question of what they mean when they say God became man. Is what they mean that God was God, but then He became man and so now He's not God anymore, or is it that they mean God became man but He was still God, in which case I want to know, is He mortal or immortal? Man is mortal, God is immortal, so which one was God if He was man and so on. Because if He was mortal than He's not God, if He was immortal than He wasn't a man. If it is meant that God is a man but still God then what does that mean? Does that mean that when this man (who was also fully God) clipped His fingernails that He was cutting off little pieces of God? Before the Muslim could ever agree that God became a man, first the Christian must clarify what they mean by that sentence... then the conversation can go from there...

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    May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه

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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Now getting back to the original question. Can God be a perfect God and a perfect man?

    This is pretty much the same type of nonsensical statement as was being presented earlier. It is not a statement or a question. It is not a challange.

    A perfect man can not be a perfect god. By definition of man, a man is not a god.

    A perfect God can not be a perfect man. Because by definition a god is not a man.

    This is a play of words and not a statement of fact. It sounds nice and at first appearance seems to be a viable concept. But it is simply a play on words and really not saying or asking anything.

    We can take any combination of gibberish and make it sound like a plausable statement. Yet, no matter how much it seems like a statement or question, it is just gibberish.

    Like all gibberish it can be neither proven nor disproven. Simply because there is nothing there to prove or disprove.
    Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?




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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Idris, the cited article’s logic is flawed; does the Bible not say Satan was created perfect (Do you agree that Satan was created perfect)?
    Satan, a being created perfect, developed a flaw.

    If you are kind enough to grant me that much in this discourse, then what would NOT- allow/prevent any other perfect created-being to sin?

    Thanks
    Nimrod

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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Idris, I see, now, where your thinking is coming from, “Can God make a stone so heavy that he cannot pick it up?

    If God chose to imbue a gnat, while maintaining the physical limits of gnat, with his personal spirit, would that gnat not be God?

    If God can “think” things into being, then cannot the Gnat "think" things into being?

    Is it necessary that the Gnat should lift the stone in order to "think" things into being?

    If you can “think” things into being, are you not God?

    Thanks
    Nimrod

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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
    Can God be a perfect God and a perfect man?
    You could try the "Logic in religion" thread.

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    evangel's Avatar
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by MuslimCONVERT View Post
    The issue is not "is it possible" for God to be a man.... the issue is what does the Christian mean when they say this. To me, it's not that the sentence is good or bad, it's that I have yet to find a Christian in 4 years who can answer the question of what they mean when they say God became man. Is what they mean that God was God, but then He became man and so now He's not God anymore, or is it that they mean God became man but He was still God, in which case I want to know, is He mortal or immortal? Man is mortal, God is immortal, so which one was God if He was man and so on. Because if He was mortal than He's not God, if He was immortal than He wasn't a man. If it is meant that God is a man but still God then what does that mean? Does that mean that when this man (who was also fully God) clipped His fingernails that He was cutting off little pieces of God? Before the Muslim could ever agree that God became a man, first the Christian must clarify what they mean by that sentence... then the conversation can go from there...



    John becomes a policeman. He is still a man. After 33 years he retires. No longer being a policeman does not make him cease to exist. This is not like being a caterpillar and when it changes into a butterfly it is no longer a caterpillar. Being one thing and taking on the responsibilities and attributes of another does not make you less of either. I am 100% man and 100% American. The thing is I didn't need to set aside any priveleges to be both. God set aside the privelege of diety and became weak (flesh) to bring us back to Him. He then tells us that we must be born again, not the flesh, it is corrupted, but our soul and spirit. The man that God created must be born not the man I had spent 43 years fashioning. After being born again I realized why this needs to happen. I was a self made man, but the workmanship is shoddy and the warranty stinks. Let God build the men, He knows what He's doing.

    John 1:12-14
    But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

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    AvarAllahNoor's Avatar
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by evangel View Post
    Idris, I can't believe you said this not once but twice. My God created the whole universe by speaking it into existence, He is all powerful. He can do anything. Do you truly believe in a god that is unable to do something? Do you believe that if the God who spoke everything into being, said to a teenage Jewish girl "You are with child." it would not be so? Do believe that if God chose to take a part of Himself and place it in the child He couldn't? Do you worship a god of your logic or the Creator, the great I AM?
    Believing in a philosophy has limits, true belief in God brings endless possibilities.

    John 1:12,13 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
    I believe in all that's been said above, but not the 'Jesus being God; It's impossible, because God is free from the circle of life and death!
    Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Ėk Gusā Alhu Mėrā
    The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.

    Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Mahraaj Ji!

    Kal Meh Bėḏ Atharbaṇ Hū Nā Kẖuḏā Alhu Bẖa.
    In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.

    Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Mahraaj Ji!

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    Phil12123's Avatar
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    Re: Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man?

    Originally Posted by evangel
    Idris, I can't believe you said this not once but twice. My God created the whole universe by speaking it into existence, He is all powerful. He can do anything. Do you truly believe in a god that is unable to do something? Do you believe that if the God who spoke everything into being, said to a teenage Jewish girl "You are with child." it would not be so? Do believe that if God chose to take a part of Himself and place it in the child He couldn't? Do you worship a god of your logic or the Creator, the great I AM?
    Believing in a philosophy has limits, true belief in God brings endless possibilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor View Post
    I believe in all that's been said above, but not the 'Jesus being God; It's impossible, because God is free from the circle of life and death!
    Mark 10:27. Looking upon them, Jesus said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

    ... at least, with MY God! Your god must not be all-powerful. You can't put limitations on GOD!

    Peace


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