All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile? Why do humans have to believe in God? Why would I go to hell if I rationally cannot feel His presence?
All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile? Why do humans have to believe in God? Why would I go to hell if I rationally cannot feel His presence?
The presence of God is everywhere. It isn't hard to "feel" God's presence if you are looking for that presence. I'm not sure what you would expect a Christian, Muslim, or Jew to say in reply to this question.
No one is forcing you to believe... Those of us who do.... have tons of other legitimate reasons for worship other than fear of hell's fire....... You are getting an infantile notion out of it simply because you are putting it in a very low common denominator........ not because that is all that religion entails.....If I were to put it in the very least... I'd say religion has set laws to govern mankind from moral and social degeneracy; and like any system including the sophisticated societal one, it is established on what it is you'll get out of it.......
Why do you study?
Why do you work?
Why do you play?
Why do you fornicate?
Why do you sleep?
Why do you bathe?
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile?
Yes, frankly. Personally I think its just to scare people into believing what there is no real reason for them to believe.
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The presence of God is everywhere. It isn't hard to "feel" God's presence if you are looking for that presence. I'm not sure what you would expect a Christian, Muslim, or Jew to say in reply to this question.
That might be true of 'God' in the widest possible sense, in the form of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God, or a universal consciousness of some sort, or Tao, or one of a hundred related concepts that spiritual man has come up with over the millennia for what must amount to the same thing.
The association of that sensed presence with the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God is not essential, however; its just associated with that by followers of those religions because its either the only concept they have, or the only one they choose to acknowledge. A 'New Age' type, for example, or a Taoist, would associate that perception with something completely different. The original question, therefore, stands as a good one. Even if the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God exists, why 'eternal d*mnation' just because you don't believe in that specific concept of God?
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
God created you, so worship him or u go to hell.
If there is any logic in that at all, it totally escapes me. WHY? Does God really have an ego so big that anyone who dares not bow down and worship (no matter how good a person they may be) goes to hell? The assumption that it it is self evident that God exists in the specific form that Jews, Christians and muslims perceive him is simply untrue. Even if you perceive a 'God', it/He doesn't have to fit that model which is more cultural than spiritual.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
If there is any logic in that at all, it totally escapes me. WHY? Does God really have an ego so big that anyone who dares not bow down and worship (no matter how good a person they may be) goes to hell? The assumption that it it is self evident that God exists in the specific form that Jews, Christians and muslims perceive him is simply untrue. Even if you perceive a 'God', it/He doesn't have to fit that model which is more cultural than spiritual.
u say god has a big ego and u being a sperm, and then DIRT, thats wat u r, SPERM N DIRT, and allah has moulded you, yet you say he has a big ego. Lol us humans are so pitiful, we dont even realise the greatness of GOd...
Last edited by IbnAbdulHakim; 10-22-2006 at 10:06 PM.
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My tears testify that i have a heart
yet i feel me and shaytan never part
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Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Age old questions........ to be answered upon our incumbent death............. death has a way of expiating foolishness and making sophistication primitive again......... Eternal concepts aren't subject to change because fashions, or electronic gadgets become sophisticated. We'll always have the same needs............our meta needs, a chance at eternity...... I'd say that is an ego boast to the ephemeral beings who die... not the one who created them.........
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
[64:6] That was because there came to them their Messengers with clear proofs (signs), but they said: “Shall mere men guide us?” So they disbelieved and turned away (from the truth), and Allah was not in need (of them). And Allah is Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all praise.
Allah does not need an ego stroke. He is in need of nothing whatsoever. You also do not need to worship Him at all, but know that because He is not in need of your worship He has no problem with dumping you into the hellfire for lacking it. It really doesn't matter to Him whether you believe or not, but it will indeed matter to you when Judgement day comes. It's all up to you.
All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile? Why do humans have to believe in God? Why would I go to hell if I rationally cannot feel His presence?
The message of all the 3 Abrahamic religion's was to worship the Creator, the One who created the worlds and whatever is inside. If you find it hard to believe that there is a Creator, then is the chair your sitting on made by itself too?
If a simple chair can't be made by itself, then realise that the world, the food you eat, the clothes you wear, and a miracle like you, can't be made by itself either. And everything in this world was created for a purpose (including that chair!) so if you feel that the chair is made for a purpose and you're not, then does that chair have a better purpose than you?
Why did the Creator create us though? He created us not so we would walk around and gain wealth in this world, till we die. But there was a greater purpose, and that is so we worship Him. This world is an examhall, a trial where Allaah Almighty, God - see's everything we do.
He doesn't show himself because the trial is to see if people will reflect on this world and come to realise that there is a Creator, but not just that - but to be thankful to Him, and to submit to Him and realise the blessings He has given us. If He show's himself, then that's just giving the answers away to the exam, so we reflect on the creation to realise the signs of the Creator.
If you feel that the sign's of the Creator aren't reliable enough, imagine this.
The top that you're wearing probably has a label on, that label tells which company made the top. You don't have solid proof that it was made specifically by that company, but you only realise this because of the label/sign.
The same way, Allaah made this world, we don't see Him, but we reflect on His signs, and we know that no-one besides God, Allaah - the Creator can make anything better than the worlds and everything inside.
The sign's of Allaah are subtle, but you don't actually expect yourself walking in the street, and neon light's saying "Avicenna become muslim!"
Remember that if you are sincere in searching for the truth, Allaah will guide you. The people who are sincere, Allaah Almighty helps them - the same way if you're sincere in working to pass an exam, you're more likely to pass, instead of a student who messes about - then when the results come, they regret it and feel that they've lost.
Similarly, if a person doesn't strive hard to in this world to find the truth, and messes about like a student who doesn't want to focus in class, they will end up getting the result's anyway, the same way the one's who obeyed the teacher did.
But the difference will be that the one's who believed, obeyed, and did good works - they will be rewarded, whereas those who disbelieved and ignored the message, they will be punished. The teacher didn't waste the whole time on nothing, Allaah Almighty never created the world for no purpose. And the student wasn't created for nothing, but they were there to believe and understand, and to submit, but if they failed in that - they will be regrettful of it's consequences.
Allaah Almighty know's best, if you got any questions - please don't hesitate to ask.
The same way, Allaah made this world, we don't see Him, but we reflect on His signs, and we know that no-one besides God, Allaah - the Creator can make anything better than the worlds and everything inside.
No, 'we' don't know that. We don't even 'know' it needs a 'one' at all. The signs, which for sake of argument I'll agree are there, are interpreted according to cultural conditioning, not necessarily according to what they are. Hence someone brought up as a muslim will see them as the signs of Allah. Someone brought up with another tradition will interpret them as something completely different.
The 'subtle' argument as some sort of test just doesn't cut it for me. It just seems a pretty feeble excuse as to why what really should be obvious if God is as Jews/Christians/muslims perceive Him to be is nothing of the sort. It just comes down to the 'signs' only being obvious to those who want to see them - whether they are actually there or not.
You ignored my other point's regarding the fact that there is actually a Creator. It's way more obvious that there is a Creator who made everything, who made the whole world and everything inside of it, yet you find it shocking if i said that the chair your sitting on was made by itself.
If you find it so hard to believe that there isn't any Creator because you can't see Him. Realise that emotion's can't be seen either, but the tears of sadness show, the sign's of Allaah show only when a person experiences the actual emotion, similarly when the person reflects on everything around him/her - they see the sign's of Allaah Almighty.
The fact that there is a Creator is much more easier to understand than believing that there isn't a Creator whatsoever. It goes against logic. And this is why the majority of the world believes in this, most just differ on how He should be worshipped, or not.
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