Sikhism- a continuation of prophet hood?

masha'allah a very good post, i have made several similar posts in the past in the sikhism thread, but the answers would be evaded

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AsalamuAlaykum Warahmatullahi Wabrakatuh,

Nice thread sis

format_quote Originally Posted by Mohsin

masha'allah a very good post, i have made several similar posts in the past in the sikhism thread, but the answers would be evaded

Nothing in that thread was 'evaded' all were given answers which could not be refuted by yourself or others!

BTW why did you edit your post?

format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah

Hi there to all the sikhs out there.

This thread is based on my question in the 'Questions for Sikhs', there is no way we can discuss this without it turning into a debate so I thought I would start a new thread for it.

So from what I understand, sikhs accept the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and the other prophets to be real prophets and that their guru is a prophet too.

But I do not see how this can be so. Prophet Muhammad said plain and clear that he was the last prophet to be sent too all of mankind. How then can you claim that there was a prophet after him? This means you have to reject the what Muhammad pbuh taught.



Well, Muslims reject their Holy Book because we believe that they have been tampered with and changed over time, so they no longer reflect what the prophets really taught. I assume you must also think this because you reject the concept of the Trinity and that Jesus is the son of God?

We do not reject the the previous religions, rather we totally accept what the prophets taught (which is not necessarily reflected in their Holy Books).

But you do reject Islam. Does this mean that you reject the Holy Quran as being the real thing? Do you think it was tampered? I don't understand how you can accept Muhammad pbuh yet reject his teachings.

Sat Shri Akal (God is Truth)

Well before i proceed, i know just as well as you do. Our views will not change regardless of what is said. You stand stong by your faith and me mine!

According to muslims the Bible and Torah are tampered with. To us the Quran is also tampered with. all this HAS been covered in the Sikhsim thread. I'll filter through it all and post the appropriate answers. Even though you're not willing to read through it yourself!

Bear in mind Muhammed DID NOT write anything in the Quran, but was written by followers.

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

Well before i proceed, i know just as well as you do. Our views will not change regardless of what is said. You stand stong by your faith and me mine!

Naturally.

According to muslims the Bible and Torah are tampered with. To us the Quran is also tampered with.

I would love to see why you believe this, and what proof you have?

all this HAS been covered in the Sikhsim thread. I'll filter through it all and post the appropriate answers. Even though you're not willing to read through it yourself!

I did go through it, though I never found it. Or perhaps I found it but the asnwers were not as in depth as I would have liked.

Bear in mind Muhammed DID NOT write anything in the Quran, but was written by followers.

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) did not write the Quran- God did, and He taught it to him. He in turn taught it to His companions, many of whom learned the whole thing of by heart, and also wrote it down here and there. Later they put it all together, and they did not change it.

Do you think badly of the companions btw? Because they would NEVER dream of changing the Quran.

All Prophet have given the message of God for humanity to benefit from it. They delivered the message verbally which was put to writing at a much later date by the followers. The delay and passing over of the message through people over several generations lead to many changes. Guru Nanak Ji himself recorded the messages of Waheguru/Allah/Ram which have been reflected in Guru Granth Saheb.

But there was no 'generations' with the recording of Quran! It was compiled by people who were very close to the prophet, they knew him personally.

By the way, if you don't mind, can you just refer to God as God in your posts because the different names confuse me. :X Thanks.

format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) did not write the Quran- God did, and He taught it to him. He in turn taught it to His companions, many of whom learned the whole thing of by heart, and also wrote it down here and there. Later they put it all together, and they did not change it.

Do you think badly of the companions btw? Because they would NEVER dream of changing the Quran.

I don't think badly. Why would i! - Humans are prone to making mistakes. To you it may be a trivial matter the Quran was not written by Mohammed himself, but to Sikhs it's very relevant. Just as the Bible and Geeta/Ved Torah are not written by the actual Prophets.

The only scriptures that are written by the Prophets are the Sikh Gurus and can not be challenged! (I know this sentence will be deleted by admin, because it was before. It true)


Max Arthur Macauliffe writes about the authenticity of the Guru's teaching

The Sikh religion differs as regards the authenticity of its dogmas from most other theological systems. Many of the great teachers the world has known, have not left a line of their own composition and we only know what they taught through tradition or second-hand information.

If Pythagoras wrote of his tenets, his writings have not descended to us. We know the teachings of Socrates only through the writings of Plato and Xenophanes. Buddha has left no written memorial of his teaching. Kungfu-tze, known to Europeans as Confuscius, left no documents in which he detailed the principles of his moral and social system. The founder of Christianity did not reduce his doctrines to writing and for them we are obliged to trust to the gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Arabian Prophet did not himself reduce to writing the chapters of the Quran. They were written or compiled by his adherents and followers. But the compositions of the Sikh Gurus are preserved and we know at first hand what they taught and written by themselves. Not a word is incorrect.


BTW - I'll be back later.

Sat Shri Akal

format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah

But there was no 'generations' with the recording of Quran! It was compiled by people who were very close to the prophet, they knew him personally.

By the way, if you don't mind, can you just refer to God as God in your posts because the different names confuse me. :X Thanks.

How can they confuse when they mean the same thing!

^Because I am not familiar with the words.

I will reply later inshaallah. gtg for now.

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

[B it may be a trivial matter the Quran was not written by Mohammed himself, but to Sikhs it's very relevant. Just as the Bible and Geeta/Ved Torah are not written by the actual Prophets.

The only scriptures that are written by the Prophets are the Sikh Gurus and can not be challenged! (I know this sentence will be deleted by admin, because it was before. It true) ]I don't think badly. Why would i! - Humans are prone to making mistakes. To you

I challenge them and they are not prophets.
First prove that the Quran (recitation) is not authentic. Their is plenty of threads regarding the authenticity of the Quran. someone find the links to him, and he can challenge that statement.

EDIT:

Further find me statements, indication e.t.c from your book that Quran is currupted or false e.t.c

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

Max Arthur Macauliffe writes about the authenticity of the Guru's teaching


The Sikh religion differs as regards the authenticity of its dogmas from most other theological systems. Many of the great teachers the world has known, have not left a line of their own composition and we only know what they taught through tradition or second-hand information.

If Pythagoras wrote of his tenets, his writings have not descended to us. We know the teachings of Socrates only through the writings of Plato and Xenophanes. Buddha has left no written memorial of his teaching. Kungfu-tze, known to Europeans as Confuscius, left no documents in which he detailed the principles of his moral and social system. The founder of Christianity did not reduce his doctrines to writing and for them we are obliged to trust to the gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Arabian Prophet did not himself reduce to writing the chapters of the Quran. They were written or compiled by his adherents and followers. [U]But the compositions of the Sikh Gurus are preserved and we know at first hand what they taught and written by themselves. Not a word is incorrect.

As above, firstly give me proof of the authenticity, secondly someone writing it by their own hand does not constitute a revelation from God or the person is a prophet otherwise every tom and ben can be classified as such.

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

Sat Shri Akal (God is Truth)
According to muslims the Bible and Torah are tampered with. To us the Quran is also tampered with.

Bible and Torah are tampered and there are plenty of reasons to believe it. (There are plenty of threads related this topic here and other Islamic sites)

But what make u say Quran is tampered with?? (nauzubillaah)
I think u should not talk any further with another topics until u can proof Quran is tampered with . (nauzubillaah)
so the expectation from u to proof it first that Quran is tampered with (nauzubillaah)

- According to muslims the Bible and Torah are tampered with. Yes that is correct.
- We Muslim believe and we proved the massage of Allah (SWT) and the teaching of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is flawless.

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

I don't think badly. Why would i! - Humans are prone to making mistakes. To you it may be a trivial matter the Quran was not written by Mohammed himself, but to Sikhs it's very relevant. Just as the Bible and Geeta/Ved Torah are not written by the actual Prophets.

Do you think it is possible that all the people how had memorized the Quran, by heart, would all make the same mistake and all forget the same verse, or that they would ALL think it was something different?! And not only that but if they thought it was something differnet, they would have all had to think it was the same different thing!

The Quran was not based on the memory of one Muslim, but many, many Muslims! In fact, so many that it would be impossible that these people would have all agreed on a lie!

Oh, and also, the Quran was written down at the time of the prophet, but just NOT in the form of one complete book.

This here explains a little about how the Quran was complied:

It is not possible for a Muslim to entertain doubts concerning the immutability of the Qur’aan, because Allaah has guaranteed to preserve the Qur’aan. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)”

[al-Hijr 15:9]

The Qur’aan was preserved in the hearts of the Sahaabah who had memorized it, and on the trunks of trees and thin white stones until the time of the caliph Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with him)*. During the Riddah wars many of the Sahaabah who had memorized the Qur’aan were killed, so Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) was afraid that the Qur’aan may be lost. He consulted the senior Sahaabah concerning the idea of compiling the entire Qur’aan in one book so that it would be preserved and would not be lost, and this task was entrusted to the great hafiz** Zayd ibn Thaabit and others who had written down the Revelation. Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh that Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:

“Abu Bakr As-Siddeeq sent for me when the people of Yamamah had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musaylimah). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin al-Khattaab sitting with him. Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said (to me), ‘ ‘Umar has come to me and said: “Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the Qur'aan (i.e. those who knew the Qur’aan by heart) at the Battle of Yamaamah, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest that you [Abu Bakr] should issue orders that the Qur’aan be collected.” I said to 'Umar, “How can you do something that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do?" 'Umar said, “By Allah, this is something good.” ‘Umar kept on urging me (to accept his proposal) until Allah opened my heart to it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized.’ Then Abu Bakr said (to me): ‘You are a wise young man and we have a great deal of confidence in you. You used to write down the Revelation for the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). So you should seek out the Qur’aan [i.e., the fragments on which it is written] and collect it (in one book).’ By Allaah, if they had ordered me to move one of the mountains, it would not have been harder for me than this command to collect the Qur’aan. I said (to Abu Bakr), ‘How can you do something which the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do?’ Abu Bakr said, ‘By Allaah, it is a good thing.’ Abu Bakr kept on urging me (to accept his proposal) until Allah opened my heart to it as He had opened the hearts of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar. So I started to look for the Qur’aan and collected it from (the fragments on which it was written of) palm-stalks, thin white stones and the hearts of men (i.e., from men who knew it by heart), until I found the last verse of Soorat al-Tawbah with Abu Khuzaymah al-Ansaari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The verse is :

‘Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty…’

[al-Tawbah 9:128 – interpretation of the meaning]

… until the end of Soorat Baraa’ah (Soorat al-Tawbah).

These fragments remained with Abu Bakr until he died, then with ‘Umar for the rest of his life, then with Hafsah bint ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both).”

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=23487&ln=eng

*I would like to add that the "time of Abu bakr" was directly after the death of the prophet (no room for 'generations' to change anything.

** A Hafiz is someone who has memorized the whole Quran by heart.

So, what do you think?

format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon

I challenge them and they are not prophets.

First prove that the Quran (recitation) is not authentic. Their is plenty of threads regarding the authenticity of the Quran. someone find the links to him, and he can challenge that statement.

You challenge them? Who are you exactly...

This is a muslim forum so of course you're going to refute it. Ask the Shia who believe that the Quran is not the original and say Ali was mentioned in the original . How can you as a muslim lay claim the Quran is not distorted when muslims themselves say it?!

And, the Guru's were not any Tom Dick or Harry. - They were messengers of the Timeless one and wrote the revelation of God. Name anyone else who writes such and claims it a revelation? You'll not find a soul!

format_quote Originally Posted by i_m_tipu

Bible and Torah are tampered and there are plenty of reasons to believe it. (There are plenty of threads related this topic here and other Islamic sites)

But what make u say Quran is tampered with?? (nauzubillaah)
I think u should not talk any further with another topics until u can proof Quran is tampered with . (nauzubillaah)
so the expectation from u to proof it first that Quran is tampered with (nauzubillaah)

- According to muslims the Bible and Torah are tampered with. Yes that is correct.
- We Muslim believe and we proved the massage of Allah (SWT) and the teaching of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is flawless.

You'll find just as many in the Christian forums debating the Quran not being authentic.

What Muhammed said was truly great. But what has materialised is something completely different!

format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah

Do you think it is possible that all the people how had memorized the Quran, by heart, would all make the same mistake and all forget the same verse, or that they would ALL think it was something different?! And not only that but if they thought it was something differnet, they would have all had to think it was the same different thing!

The Quran was not based on the memory of one Muslim, but many, many Muslims! In fact, so many that it would be impossible that these people would have all agreed on a lie!

Sister i undestand where you're coming from hence why Sikhs do not go around attacking other faiths out of respect for the Prophets alone. They were trully great people with a message from Allah. But when we're challenged by a person we speak the truth, which you can see is not recieved in kind!

Sikhs who have absolute faith in Allah are not disturbed, distracted, diverted or hindered by the sayings of other faiths because they are truly on the religious path which is singular.

All the Gurus, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha. They preached only One Religion of God though the Name of God varied from place to place and language.

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

Ask the Shia who believe that the Quran is not the original and say Ali was mentioned in the original . How can you as a muslim lay claim the Quran is not distorted when muslims themselves say it?!

The Shia are a deviant sect, and their ideas are so radical that it is almost sufficient to render then as non-Muslim. Just because they say it was changed, let them bring forth their proof!

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

You'll find just as many in the Christian forums debating the Quran not being authentic.

They don't even believe that Prophet Muhammad pbuh was a prophet, of course they do not believe the Quran is the word of God!

The question isn't about whether or not the debate exists, rather it is about who is right and who has the most proof!

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

Sister i undestand where you're coming from hence why Sikhs do not go around attacking other faiths out of respect for the Prophets alone. They were trully great people with a message from Allah. But when we're challenged by a person we speak the truth, which you can see is not recieved in kind!

This is a debate and discussion, not an attack. I challenged you and I gave my proof but you just repeat your claims with out any evidence... which is why your claims weren't received well because you have no evidence....

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

You'll find just as many in the Christian forums debating the Quran not being authentic.

A reminder

We Muslim believe and we prove.

U believes what non Muslim and shia believe. That ur choice u can believe whatever u want.

But when u makes an announcement than u must have a good clear reason behind.

So what that reasons pls tell us.

Take ur time. That won’t be a problem but pls...... come back with ur reasons.

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

What Muhammed said was truly great. But what has materialised is something completely different!

don't want to give ans now untill u explain ur first announcement "Quran is tempered with"