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  1. #1
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    for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun (OP)


    "Say: Truth has arrived and falsehood has been vanquished, indeed falsehood by its very nature is bound to be vanquished." (Qur'an 17:81)

    To the Sikhs on this board...

    I have been reading your faith describes God as both Sargun AND Nirgun,

    Sargun = being manifest in the creation
    Nirgun = being un-manifest.


    Surely these two matters are contradictory? How can God be both at the same time?
    Have I misunderstood this or are these two contradictory concepts taught about God in the Sikhi faith?

    Is this like the Muslim idea of God being outside the creation, but with us as humans being part of this creation we can see some of the beauties and wonders created by God and so realise he is there? Is this what you mean by Sargun?

    Or do you literally mean that God manifests himself inside the creation in the same manner as the Hindus believe?

    Abu Abdullah

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

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    I advice don't read Sikhs read their scriptures carefully
    This is absolutely a wrong statement sikhi is not mixture!
    Such statements are used for Islam like Islam is mixture of Zoroastrianism,Judaism and Christianity which is absolutely nonsense.
    So I also believe in healthy discussion

    - - - Updated - - -

    So did you understand

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurdeep singh View Post
    I advice don't read Sikhs read their scriptures carefully
    This is absolutely a wrong statement sikhi is not mixture!
    Such statements are used for Islam like Islam is mixture of Zoroastrianism,Judaism and Christianity which is absolutely nonsense.
    So I also believe in healthy discussion
    No, do not get me wrong, I am not stating that sikhism is a mixture...I am just saying that a colleague as a sikh gave me that answer...on the other hand I have to say that his parents were sikhs, and he himself does not have much connection with his religion, because he eats everything.

    But you surely understand my confusion when I got such an answer and having absolutely minimum knowledge about sikhism.
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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    About size of Allah it is necessary to know as Muslims claim Allah is above throne on 7th heaven so is Allah finite or infinite in Islam then you can have authority to challenge infinity of waheguru omnipresence of sikhi
    It is wrong sikhi is not mixture
    Even Islam is not mixture of Judaism Christianity and Zoroastrianism

    - - - Updated - - -

    So brother do some research about sikhi
    I am also researching Islam but do not believe in statement of anybody unless and until evidence is provided!
    Last edited by AabiruSabeel; 06-11-2019 at 02:40 PM. Reason: Personal contact details removed

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurdeep singh View Post
    About size of Allah it is necessary to know as Muslims claim Allah is above throne on 7th heaven so is Allah finite or infinite in Islam then you can have authority to challenge infinity of waheguru omnipresence of sikhi
    It is wrong sikhi is not mixture
    Even Islam is not mixture of Judaism Christianity and Zoroastrianism
    OK, here we have a start.
    Allah is absolutely infinite, no beginning, no end. He CAN be anywhere and anything. This does not mean that He is anywhere and anything. He does not need to. He is above his throne above the heavens...whatever or wherever that exactly means or is?...no one knows exactly.
    But you can see His signs in all his creation.

    Compare it with a painter if you like...A painter paints...that is what he does....a painter does not manifest himself into his paintings...but you can recognize the painter through his paintings. So also with Allah...Allah creates...that is what He does. He does not manifest himself in his creation although He can...and you can recognize Allah through his creations.

    That in short is what we Muslims believe.

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    When we Sikhs say Almighty is infinite so always remember we can not even imagine infinity of almighty so we do not put limitations on almighty in specific location

    - - - Updated - - -

    So are you clear

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    We neither put limitations on Almighty. We only give this answer about His throne because that is literally stated in the Quraan, and it is the only thing that gives a clue about His location. But when you're saying that He manifests himself in His creation, then you are kinda putting limitations on His creation, don't you think? Besides, everything around you then suddenly becomes divine. suddenly walking on stones, taking a dump on a rock becomes blasphemy...because God manifests himself on that very rock.

    Or am I thinking wrong at this moment?
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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    See in sikhi almighty from his own power created living being and universe but they are not completel manifestation rather a very little part of Almighty !
    Morever Almighty in sikhi being infinite is all prevading but still it is invisible for a normal human as he has not explored him !
    So divinity only comes when you got to know about presence of almighty by your inner soul
    I am talking about faith in God

    - - - Updated - - -

    So manifestation is just a little part and it will be foolishness to put limitation as our Sikh scriptures attribute Almighty as bayant(infinite)

    - - - Updated - - -

    For almighty his creation can not effect him even by scratch because it is supreme
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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    no you are right. we cannot harm Allah in any way....I agree with you on that....but still...
    Even if an infinite small part of Allah manifested on a rock...it would still be blasphemy to touch it with your foot.
    How can I live on a planet when Allah manifested himself in everything around me? I would be committing blashphemy every second of my entire miserable life.
    Do you understand what I am saying?

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    Yes almighty is of very high position
    We are puppets and almighty is the puppeter
    Everything is in his control as I walk I talk everything so taking these action blasphemy is not accurate as I am puppet

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    now that I think about it...that also means that a very little part of God manifests in unpure things like toilets, human and animal feaces, in animal carcasses, etc. etc.
    So you also have to treat such things with respect. So everything suddenly is of much more value than myself. how to cope with that?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurdeep singh View Post
    Yes almighty is of very high position
    We are puppets and almighty is the puppeter
    Everything is in his control as I walk I talk everything so taking these action blasphemy is not accurate as I am puppet
    So you are suggesting that as you are a puppet, you are not responsible for your own actions?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sorry if I aks too many questions...but as a muslim...that sounds wrong because we believe that we are totally responsible of our own actions. We are not just puppets but we make our own decisions.

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    Brother almighty creation has no flaw
    Even science says faeces can be used as fuel in future
    Impurity comes due to contamination
    We human ourselves are so much contaminated our bone marrow is so smelly we sweat sometimes we have sperm leakage menstruation etc but these impurities do not cause anything to Almighty at all
    As all are minute part so there is no problem but idolatry is wrong as they are created things not the actual creator

    - - - Updated - - -

    God has given us brain and nerves we are facing examination

    - - - Updated - - -

    So you are right in saying we have little power to control our actions
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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    thanks for your answers so far...I see we have a lot in common. We also think we are facing examination...but just to make sure...and I im interested in your answer:
    How you you see this examination?
    If we are just puppets, we just say and move in any direction God dictates us? so what exactly is then being examined?

    Besides, God is omnipotent isn't he? So He knows everything already...so why this examination then?

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    Almighty has provided us five senses
    Almighty plays himself by his power but he has granted us sense but still we can not overcome the creator in his actions he does.
    Almighty test his creation like you and me to judge who remember him!
    If he already knows future still he tests to find who has kept faith in him or not
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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    İF he knows the future? so may İ assume you are doubting that?
    if God is omnipotent...then He knows the future for sure...but if He does know the future...then why the examination part? He doesn't need to examine us...right? so what am İ missing?

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    No I am not doubting
    Almighty plays due to supreme position
    It is his wish
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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    OK...to summarize you:
    God is omnipotent and therefore knows the future.
    He certainly does not need to examine us but still wishes that.
    İt is His Wish so it is not to us to question His wishes.

    İ could respect that answer. Thank you for being patient with me.

    Still...İ would give you the İslamic version of this answer.
    we totally agree with that answer...
    Allah does not need to test us...He already knows the outcome of this examination.
    However...this examination is not meant for Allah...it is meant for ourselves.
    İf Allah would create us and just throw us in Hell just like that...we would complain: "why God? what did İ do to deserve this?" and His answer would be something like "because İ know you better than you know yourself"
    ...but we just would not understand that answer...and worse...we would think that Allah is an unjust God.
    so by making us come to this world first...he makes us witnesses of our own actions and decisions. Then we suddenly understant completely why we are placed in heaven and hell.

    but this only makes sense if:
    -we believe in heaven and hell...and not hell as in reincarnation back to this world,
    -we have a total free will and we are responsible of our own actions...so we are not just puppets.

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    Quran in surrah 13 Al read ayat 39
    "Allāh erases what He wills (of His revelations and laws and of the deeds of His servants) and affirms what He wills and with Him is the Mother of the Book."
    So I am not wrong in saying we are slaves but we have sense that us true we have to work to control our senses in perfect way !
    Yes we are puppets but but we are granted with little brain body power
    We are just slaves and master test who remains loyal to him

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    İ never said you were wrong on that part...we really are Allahs slaves...and everything happens just like Allah has written beforehand what is going to happen. everything we do and decide is already been written down...but still this does not mean we are just puppets and we just do only that what has been ordered us to do.
    we make our decisions ourselves...not that we make certain decisions just because we are supposed to make that very decision. sounds contradicting but it is really not.
    we are therefore 100% responsible of our own decisions...so we cannot just say "i only did that because it already was written. İ was supposed to do that". that is not a valid answer on judgement day.
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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    But your good book quran in 13:39 says almighty can decide
    Yes on other side you are right we have got sense powers
    100 percent is not correct ,nature and other things besides our body are governed by almighty like rain,sunrise etc .
    Yes future is decided but brain has been gifted to control

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    Re: for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

    no. rain, sunrise, location where you are only steer you towards certain good and bad opportunities...the decision to grab a good or bad opportunity comes 100% from ourselves. so there is a difference.


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