Understanding

For beginers I am a Texas Cowboy with a Yankee background. I doubt very much if anyone would think I am part of the Arbic culture. In fact over 85% of the worlds Muslims are not Arabic.

Political philosophy? Well on my voter registration card I'm listed as an Independant. I usualy vote Democrat. We have no problem living in any country, as long as the laws do not intefer with the practise of Islam. Yes, a Muslim would prefer to live under Shariah law. But, there is not a single country in the world that has true Shariah law at this time.

As far as rejecting modernity. I am a retired psychologist. I probably have rejected modernity, but because I am an old fogey, not because I am Muslim.

If you read these threads You will see that many of the members are College Students with very high aspirations.

[MOUSE]welcome to the forum![/MOUSE]

Thanks for the reply but I wanted much more.

Do Muslims want this country to be under Sharia law?

Yes, that would be our preference. But, also when we are in a none Sharia country we are obligated to either follow the laws of the land or leave it. It it is that we can not practice Islam we are to leave if at all possible.

If so how does that work with our (USA) brand of law?

I would say that for the 10 million Muslims currently living in the USA we have not had any major problems

We currently have a choice that is not dictated by Sharia Law but you may follow Sharia in your personal life.

That is true, and that is why we do not feel forced to leave.

Do Muslims want to change that? Do Muslims want religious police as in SA on the streets of the USA?

That would never be a possibility unless the country were predominatly Muslim. We would like to see that happen. But, only if it is the result of free choice and not from force.

I think my first post is pretty explicit in the answers I need.

Are there middle eastern Muslims on this forum?

Very few, It is rare you will find a Muslim from the Mid-east. The majority of the Members are life long Muslims who were born Muslim and have always practiced Islam. But, there are only a few from the mideast. As I said Earlier. That is a misconception, over 85% of the world's Muslims are not Arabic. The Majority would be classified as oriental as the country with the Largest Muslim Population is Indonesia.

I should have added Saudi Arabia is not under Sharia Law. It is essentialy a kingdom and is predominatly under the law of men.

In my personal opinion the Country that is coming closest to Sharia Law is Malaysia.

format_quote Originally Posted by silat

You say that you would like to see the US under Sharia law.
Does this mean that you dont agree with the seperation of church and state? If this is true then does it mean you would throw out the constitution as it is currently written? Is this the way of the true Muslim?

Peace

I am saying yes if we were a Muslim Majority and this was a Muslim country. But, we are not a Muslim Country. Sharia law can not be implemented fully unless every inhabitant of the country is a good practicing Muslim. In that event there would be absolutly no opposistion to sharia law.

You can not implement Sharia law in a Non-Islamic country.

That is a very moot question, as I do not foresee every resident in the USA embracing Islam during my life time. So, for here in the USA as the population stands the US constitution is the only workable government.

To put it in perspective if you were living in a Sharia Country, would you not desire for the country to be Democratic, would you not be advocating for democracy?


Does that mean you would use illegal or violent means to achieve Democracy? Does that mean you are a radical? Would that make you a danger to the people around you?

For the US it is a necessity. I would not be able to practice as a Muslim if there was not seperation of Church and State.

Keep in mind that for a true shariah state to exist all of the people in it would be Muslim, so there would be no reason for seperation of Church and State.

There can be no separate of 'Church' and state in Islam, because Islam itself already has a government system which was created by God himself, it is a perfect and complete way of life.

Why should we reject the perfect laws of God and create our own cheap laws?

Also, non-Muslims do have their rights under Islamic law, so it isn't as if you will be discriminated against.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

In my personal opinion the Country that is coming closest to Sharia Law is Malaysia.

By virtue (or lack thereof) of the Malaysian Federal Constitution inspired by the British & Indian constitutions, Shariah laws have been reduced to legal issues pertaining to Muslim family inheritance, marriage and divorce, and Muslim child custody. Hudud laws (jinayat i.e. pertaining to criminal laws) are not fully implemented; cases like zina (fornication) or hirabah (armed robbery) are not dealt with punishments as prescribed in the Quran & Sunnah. Khalwat (close proximity between unmarried couples) convictions are only penalized with monetary fines.

Even as Saudi Arabia is a kingdom and not a full Islamic state, it still punishes convicted thieves with hadd punishment.

format_quote Originally Posted by root

Interesting to note that this world does not include a single country that is an islamic state.....

I wonder why? kay:

This was foretold, it is nothing we did not know would happen. Off hand I can not think of the specific hadith, but there are a few hadith that do make mention of the coming of this time.

It is all in accordance with the plans of Allah(swt) and Allah(swt) is the best of planners.

format_quote Originally Posted by Uther Pendragon

Hello:

First, allow me to introduce myself. My screen name is Uther Pendragon. I am the man who asked Mr. Silat the questions some of which he has posed to you. The discussion in our own email discussion group began with my somewhat hyperbolic assertion that there is no such thing as "moderate" Islam. This, of course, necessitated rather lengthy discussions back and forth about what we meant by "moderate", is Islam more than a religion, how tolerant is Islam toward the ideas and concepts of the European Enlightenment, etc. We have been at this issue for many months now, sometimes with the discussion becoming very heated.

Almost all of us in the email discussion group are liberals with a philosophy of live and let live. However, some of us are fairly knowledgeable about philosphy, comparitive religion, and consider outselves to be highly critical thinkers.

My assertion to our email group is that, basically for inate philosophical reasons, American democracy and Islam as it is practiced by most Moslems in the world are fairly incompatible and are likely to remain so. The primary reason for this is the American Constitutional requirement for separation of mosque or church and state. You see, the ancestors of the American Founding Fathers were European. And for over 900 years Europe saw one murderous religious war after another. Different philosphers of liberty, men whom we revere, like John Locke, the Baron de Montesquieu (the originator of the idea of checks and balances and tri-partitie government) suggested that it might be worthwhile and avoid the bloody religious warfare if we simply separated church and government. During the 18th century the U.S. went through a rather lengthy period of disestablishment of our privileged church institutions. No religious body could identify itself as the favored of the state because of the power of the state. Each man was to be governed by the lights of his own inspiration. For us this has worked. As hard as we fight each other as Republicans and Democrats and third parties, we have managed to avoid the extreme sectarian violence that we now see happening in Iraq. The irony is that the sectarian violence now happening in Iraq is happening between the two major factions of ONE RELIGION.

So, suffice it to say that, while many of us American Enlightenment buffs believe that our "system of government" is not perfect as Islam claims to be, it does work for us and it does keep the various contending factions from resorting to bloodshed. It would seem to us from what we see now happening in Iraq and other areas of the Middle East, that Islam is somewhat imperfect in that it does not seem to have yet discovered how to avoid the bloody sectarian violence that we whose ancestors were European once fell victim to.

It does seem to many of us that all too many Moslems, even those who live here in our country, simply do not know our history, and do not understand our reason for embracing the genius of the Enlightenment American Founding Fathers as we do.

We believe in freedom and democracy. We believe that for democracy to survive its citizens must be educated about how the Enlightenment came about and what it means for our form of government. The more liberal among us resist the temptation to lecture others about what form of government they have or wish to implement. And we do realize that our form of Jeffersonian democracy is not for everyone.

But, if you live here and benefit from the Pax Americana, we expect you to understand and practice our Enlightenment Ideals even if you do not believe in them. It is how we keep from killing one another.

P.S. According to recent magazine articles that I've read, Malaysia maintains a dual system of justice: one set of Sharia courts for Moslems, one set for non-Moslems. The best that we can figure, this pleases neither Moslems nor non-Moslems. To paraphrase a Confucian proverb, "Man who have two watches never really know what time it is." A country with two separate systems of justice, one for the established religion and one for everyone else, does not really practice justice at all.

P.S. By the way, according to this Islamic website http://www.islam101.com/history/population2_usa.html the number of Moslems in the U.S. is just over 5 million, not the 10 million stated by someone else here. Various articles on Wikipedia place the estimate of the number of Moslems in the U.S. at around 3 million.

-Uther Pendragon

Hello Uther Pendragon, welcome to the forum.

Thank you for your lengthy post. Muslims do understand democracy, however some believe the Islamic system of government is better suited, but if the country is majority Muslim and if its voted in by majority. We do believe that Islamic Shariah may not work for the US, and we are obliged under Islam to respect the host country's laws and abide by them if they do not hinder our religion. In that sense, we dont have a problem with Western democrasy.

The Iraq issue cannot be reflected of Islam because Islam strictly forbids the killings of innocents. Islam prohibits the killing of fellow Muslims and discourages creating sects. Whats happening in Iraq is UnIslamic. We as humans are imperfect, as you already mentioned, Europe went through its phase of bloody civil wars, this is not a Muslim issue.

Yourself and your friend Silat, feel free to continue participating in discussions, learning can only help. Regards.