This thread is created to separate what started in topic regarding 'no gender equality in Islam'.
The main difference between a spiritually wise and a religious people is that a spiritual person understands why s/he following certain path and her/his action in daily life are based upon his proper understanding of righteousness, but a religious person, on the other hand, is the one who blindly follows her/his perception of a religion.
Now the question arises: Is one better than the other?
Definitely spirituality is better than religion as you can see religion causes a lot of conflicts among people. If all these religious people, who are fighting today, were spiritually wise, there wouldn't be any religious fights in the world.
Let's take examples of homosexuality and polygamy. A spiritual person would understand that even though s/he may not agree with these, the other people have right to do so as long as these actions of other people do not harm someone else in any way. But a religious person would use religion as an excuse to harm a homosexual person and to justify polygamy, although s/he doesn't even understand why a religion is saying homosexuality is wrong and polygamy is right.
'Spiritual' is a word I've never understood - I simply have no idea what it refers to. I am tolerant of homosexuals and polygamy amongst consenting adults - does that make me a spiritual person?
In any case, I think that being tolerant of other people's differences has to be better than hating them because someone told you to.
I don't get the idea of spirituality either. If you're talking about having a consience, then I get you. If you don't, then sorry don't know what you're on about.
But a religious person would use religion as an excuse to harm a homosexual person and to justify polygamy, although s/he doesn't even understand why a religion is saying homosexuality is wrong and polygamy is right.
Hmmmm...is homosexuality a mental illness or a choice? I always wonder that.
Anyways, we have the freedom to hate, its whether we act upon that hate that really matters right? Religion justifying hate? we can do that without religion cant we?
Secondly, with your concern of believers not knowing "why" a certain issue has guidelines, wouldn't they be following a religion blindly?
The main difference between a spiritually wise and a religious people is that a spiritual person understands why s/he following certain path and her/his action in daily life are based upon his proper understanding of righteousness, but a religious person, on the other hand, is the one who blindly follows her/his perception of a religion.
Now the question arises: Is one better than the other?
You have rather loaded your first statement. Why "spiritually wise" but not "religiously wise"? You have both wise and rather less wise in both groups, and the spiritually stupid can go just as destructively astray as the religiously stupid. The only thing in their favour is that damage is usually just limited to themselves.
'Spiritual' (what does it actually mean?) to me is rather less relevant than mysticism. Mysticism is generally an attempt to direct experience ultimate reality in some way and all the great religions have long mystic traditions, even if Christianity and (particularly) Islam has chosen to reject them in favour of a more dogmatic approach. I never could understand why, surely direct experience of God is far more desirable than faith based following rules in a book, regardless of where you think that book came from. I think it has more to do came out top in the internal in-fighting than any religious justifcation.
format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*
Hmmmm...is homosexuality a mental illness or a choice? I always wonder that.
Neither, any more than heterosexuality is. Practicising it sexually is a choice in both cases.
I think you mean God told Bush to invade Iraq...which of course isn't what he said, but that is a different issue. I don't know the correct definition of spirituality in this context, but there is a definite difference between traditional religious institutions and spirituality. In other words, one doesn't need an organized religious institution to find God, in my opinion.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
Anyways, we have the freedom to hate, its whether we act upon that hate that really matters right? Religion justifying hate? we can do that without religion cant we?
Well you have freedom to hate but remember since God doesn't hate, you never be close to God by hating...
This thread is created to separate what started in topic regarding 'no gender equality in Islam'.
The main difference between a spiritually wise and a religious people is that a spiritual person understands why s/he following certain path and her/his action in daily life are based upon his proper understanding of righteousness, but a religious person, on the other hand, is the one who blindly follows her/his perception of a religion.
What if a person investigates, then comes to the conclusion Islam is right and decides to follow it? I myself went trough that road. I was raised by a catholic mother and an atheist father and for very long I considered myself an atheist. Two years ago I reverted to Islam, not out of blind following, but because I recognise it as the truth. And Islam does encourage everyone to seek knowledge and to not do things only because you're told to do so but to do them because you want to. So I don't see why you would associate blind following with Religion. I can show you just as much spiritual people who 're in new age stuff and the likes and who are just as those blind followers you speak off.
Definitely spirituality is better than religion as you can see religion causes a lot of conflicts among people. If all these religious people, who are fighting today, were spiritually wise, there wouldn't be any religious fights in the world.
If Iraqi's were spiritually wise america wouldn't have invaded them for oil? If Palestinians were spiritually wise the state of Israel wouldn't oppress them? If Jews were spiritually wise hitler wouldn't have gassed them? If vietnamese would have been spiritually wise america wouldn't have invaded their country? I could go on like this for a while all the way back to the stone age, but I geuss you get my point.
Let's take examples of homosexuality and polygamy. A spiritual person would understand that even though s/he may not agree with these, the other people have right to do so as long as these actions of other people do not harm someone else in any way.
Lets take alcohol for example, an alcoholic might claim he's spiritually wise and argue it is his right to abuse his body by subjecting it to poison as he sees fit. But that doesn't change the fact that it's wrong, and that both the alcoholic as his surroundings are better of if he'd quit.
But a religious person would use religion as an excuse to harm a homosexual person and to justify polygamy,
No religious person in his right mind "wishes to harm". Do you really think there's a hidden agenda here? Are you really that short visioned to think people do that only because they want to do that? Some malevolent desire? Because it makes them feel good? NO people forbid homosexuality because they believe it is wrong. And a good muslim invites others to do righteous deeds and discourages others to commit sins. If we preach we only try to help with the best intentions. We do not wish to destroy but rather to construct.
I don't see how you would judge a person who tries to help as being worse then a person who doesn't care and thinks: "do whatever you want to do".
Last edited by Abdul Fattah; 02-17-2007 at 03:41 AM.
Well you have freedom to hate but remember since God doesn't hate, you never be close to God by hating...
What if I hate those that hate God (subhana wa ta'ala)? Then how can I not be closer to God..??
If there are those that hate God, reject God, or worship other than God, do you think God will love them as much as those that worship Him alone and love Him?
The main difference between a spiritually wise and a religious people is that a spiritual person understands why s/he following certain path and her/his action in daily life are based upon his proper understanding of righteousness, but a religious person, on the other hand, is the one who blindly follows her/his perception of a religion.
Why are you assuming that a religious person is a blind follower?
A proper understanding of righteousness can not come expect with a proper understand of ones religion (i.e. Islam, I can't talk for other faiths here). Otherwise the person is following conjecture.
As for your comments on homosexuality and polygamy, AFTER a person has used his understanding, wisdom, intelligence and logic to establish that Islam is the true religion revealed by God, then he will follow those parts of the religion, even though they don't make sense, because it has already been established that it is the command of God, and no human can challenge the command of God.
format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude
Spirituality is God given wisdom from within that can never go wrong...
And how are we meant to know when we are using this 'God-given' wisdom? Surely a person who uses this 'God given' wisdom to reject the command of God isn't a very righteous person?
As for your comments on homosexuality and polygamy, AFTER a person has used his understanding, wisdom, intelligence and logic to establish that Islam is the true religion revealed by God, then he will follow those parts of the religion, even though they don't make sense, because it has already been established that it is the command of God, and no human can challenge the command of God.
What about those that have used intelligence and logic and concluded that islam is not the true religion, and was not revealed by God, yet these things still seem wrong to many people, there must be something else that makes us feel that something is wrong, no?
Why are you assuming that a religious person is a blind follower?
Well this is true. One only feels the need to follow a religious because s/he doesn't have enough logic of her/his own. Lack of forces her/him to follow a religion blindly. They often do things just because religion says so and they often admit so as well.
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
As for your comments on homosexuality and polygamy, AFTER a person has used his understanding, wisdom, intelligence and logic to establish that Islam is the true religion revealed by God, then he will follow those parts of the religion, even though they don't make sense, because it has already been established that it is the command of God, and no human can challenge the command of God.
If someone had ability to see for sure what's God's word and what's not, don't you think that person would be equivalent to a prophet.
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
And how are we meant to know when we are using this 'God-given' wisdom? Surely a person who uses this 'God given' wisdom to reject the command of God isn't a very righteous person?
You will know if you have the 'God-given' wisdom and logic will determine if someone is being honest about the wisdom...
"Definitely spirituality is better than religion as you can see religion causes a lot of conflicts among people. If all these religious people, who are fighting today, were spiritually wise, there wouldn't be any religious fights in the world."
well.. yeah, there wont be religous fights then. But one thing is for sure! the thoughts of the people would vary! some people would want to kill, others, would want to rob, .... etc. and there will be no one able to decide the good and bad, because there will be no law! everyone following there own spiritual law... and no two persons law will be the same! erm... dont you thinkg this will lead to more fights
What if I hate those that hate God (subhana wa ta'ala)? Then how can I not be closer to God..??
If there are those that hate God, reject God, or worship other than God, do you think God will love them as much as those that worship Him alone and love Him?
Someone's being homosexual doesn't mean that s/he hates God. I really don't know how someone could hate God other than that some people might hate God blaming God for something they don't like in life. But how does that have anything to do with homosexuality?
Only God knows whom he loves. But one thing for sure, He doesn't hate...
well.. yeah, there wont be religous fights then. But one thing is for sure! the thoughts of the people would vary! some people would want to kill, others, would want to rob, .... etc. and there will be no one able to decide the good and bad, because there will be no law! everyone following there own spiritual law... and no two persons law will be the same! erm... dont you thinkg this will lead to more fights
Spiritually wise people wouldn't be interfering with other people's lives. So, there wouldn't be any conflicts. But there would be laws to punish those who interferred with other people's lives...
Spiritually wise people wouldn't be interfering with other people's lives. So, there wouldn't be any conflicts. But there would be laws to punish those who interferred with other people's lives...
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erm... dont you thinkg this will lead to more fights
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