A Message To The Non-Muslims.

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Originally Posted by wilberhum

If there must be a creator, who created the creator?

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This question belongs in another thread. Find one, ask it there, and then PM to it and I will be glad to engage in a scientific dialog with respect to this question that you will find leaves us at the same place with respect to beliefs about the beginnings of the universe that we are from a faith perspective.

Greetings,

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Originally Posted by vpb

dude, there can't be a creator of a creator, it does not make sense , there cannot be a creator[1] of a creator[2], bc then the creator[2] would not be a creator but a creation. the root of everything comes from the creator. the word itself 'creator' tells that he created and he can't be created . Creator[1] is a the devisor. How can someone ie. Creator[2] create a creator[1] that is a deviser? than the the one who created Creator[1] is the deviser, not the creator[1]. and we come to the conclusion that we don't call Creator[1] a creator but a creation.

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Isn't it possible for something to be both a creation and a creator? Artists are creative. If two of them have a child who also turns out to be an artist, then some creators have created another creator. It's not on the same scale as the god question, but doesn't it make sense?

Peace

no one in earth can be called a real creator , i mean every industry that creates things and every artist who paints pictures using the colors or an artist who uses the camera or Pc ,they are not the real creators ,even when a women give birth to her child ,she didn't really create him.

why is that ?

because all of the above sub creators has already used the raw materials or their biological materials (just a figure of speech) that is already exists ..

you can't create a computer without using a single material that already exists in nature.you can't create things from nothing because you don't have the capability to do that.

even if scientists wanted to create a house fly ,they will have to use the already created materials (such as the biological cells) and this example is clearly obvious in the cloning.


so here is a question that always bumps out ,Who created those materials ????????

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Originally Posted by Keltoi

Christians do not see Mary as divine by any definition of the word. She is an important figure in Christendom by the fact that she was mother of Jesus Christ, but beyond that she is never considered to be divine. Catholics probably put more emphasis on the mother of Christ than other denominations, but they don't consider Mary to be divine either.

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Perhaps you haven't heard the Catholic Hail Mary: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." From my perspective, for someone to be the "Mother of God" that pretty much defines her as divine. The same claim to divinity can be said for someone who is the "Son of God", or for that matter the "Daughter of God". All of these are putting others as equals with Allah which is a most monstrous sin.

well its a bit too long to be called a note

good effort though

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Originally Posted by wilberhum

If there must be a creator, who created the creator?

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This is an unanswerable riddle that is a vain attempt at disproving the existence of Allah. I can use logic that proves Allah's existence to my mind, but I can't convince someone else who is insistent upon denial.

Let me use an analogy. Several years ago, I built a 12'x16' shed that started out as a neatly stacked pile of 2"x4"s, 2"x6"s, plywood, tin roofing, nails and cinder blocks. If I had the ability to throw all of these materials into the air over and over again, how many times would I have to throw them up before they came down exactly in the form of the finished shed that I "created" from scratch? My supposition is that it is mathematically impossible. How much more impossible the creation of even a single celled bacteria much less the entire universe by the Creator that we Muslim know as Allah.

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Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Perhaps you haven't heard the Catholic Hail Mary: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." From my perspective, for someone to be the "Mother of God" that pretty much defines her as divine. The same claim to divinity can be said for someone who is the "Son of God", or for that matter the "Daughter of God". All of these are putting others as equals with Allah which is a most monstrous sin.

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That may be how you understand it. But that isn't what Catholics mean by it.

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Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

That may be how you understand it. But that isn't what Catholics mean by it.

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Mother of God=Mother of Jesus, jah? 'Cause the Catholics believe Jesus is God, and Mary was the lucky woman to be chosen to bring him into the world. That about right?

Greetings,

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Originally Posted by MustafaMc

This is an unanswerable riddle that is a vain attempt at disproving the existence of Allah.

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You're right - it is unanswerable. It contradicts your world-view, so you decide to call it vain; your decision here has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with the fear that you might be wrong.

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I can use logic that proves Allah's existence to my mind, but I can't convince someone else who is insistent upon denial.

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Then you're clearly not using logic. A logical argument will convince any rational person, no matter what their prior beliefs, as long as its premises are accepted.

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Let me use an analogy. Several years ago, I built a 12'x16' shed that started out as a neatly stacked pile of 2"x4"s, 2"x6"s, plywood, tin roofing, nails and cinder blocks. If I had the ability to throw all of these materials into the air over and over again, how many times would I have to throw them up before they came down exactly in the form of the finished shed that I "created" from scratch? My supposition is that it is mathematically impossible. How much more impossible the creation of even a single celled bacteria much less the entire universe by the Creator that we Muslim know as Allah.

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Perhaps you can explain how this analogy is relevant to

a} the specific point you're talking about, and

b} arguments put forward by non-theists.

Peace

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Originally Posted by Count DeSheep

Mother of God=Mother of Jesus, jah? 'Cause the Catholics believe Jesus is God, and Mary was the lucky woman to be chosen to bring him into the world. That about right?

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That is why she is called that. But that does not mean that Catholics see Mary as divine herself. Those who try to force that point of view are reading into the title something that Catholics don't even imagine.

With all due respect, we have heard some of the best in atheist logic-- and the zen of a zero dividing isn't all that logical. Nor readily accepted by a rational mind! Unless you can come up with something better than the so called logical fallacies in the art of debate to disprove the existence of G-D.. are your arguments against his existence just as deficient!

Many a "rational" persons can't grasp readily accepted logical concepts, from inverse of a c-cycle permuation to the making of cerebral spinal fluid, but that doesn't invalidate the concepts nor does it preclude from their existence.

peace!

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Originally Posted by czgibson

Then you're clearly not using logic. A logical argument will convince any rational person, no matter what their prior beliefs, as long as its premises are accepted.

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True. But, not everyone who claims to be listening with logic is exactly doing that either. There are many non-believers in God who are just as illogical in reaching the views that they have, and yet false claim that they are the ones being rational, when in fact they just choose a different set of beliefs. They are in fact no more logical in reaching those conclusions than the theists.

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Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

That is why she is called that. But that does not mean that Catholics see Mary as divine herself. Those who try to force that point of view are reading into the title something that Catholics don't even imagine.

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I found this and wanted to ask you, of your take on it
"DEVOTION TO THE MOST HOLY MARY

(This instruction may serve either for an instruction or for a sermon; but whether it be given in the form of an instruction or of a sermon, the person who gives the spiritual exercises to the priests is entreated not to omit this discourse, which is, perhaps, the most fruitful of all; for without devotion to the divine Mother it is morally impossible for any one to be a good priest.)"

from this website http://biblelight.net/omnip.htm

what does Divine Mary mean?... Maybe it is my poor english skills, It is after all not my mother tongue or even my second language but this is what I found in meriam webster
Main Entry: 1di·vine
Pronunciation: d&-'vIn
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): di·vin·er; -est
Etymology: Middle English divin, from Anglo-French, from Latin divinus, from divus god -- more at DEITY

Also my take from the writer that he himself thinks it blasphemy to exalt her to such a status... and thankfully the article isn't written by a Muslim!

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Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

That is why she is called that. But that does not mean that Catholics see Mary as divine herself. Those who try to force that point of view are reading into the title something that Catholics don't even imagine.

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I can respect your point of view, but, if one uses logic and the meaning of words without prior biases, then he would come to a different conclusion.

The simple Islamic belief in the Oneness of Allah without parents, spouse, offspring, or equal is much more understandable and does not need elaborate explanations. God is not the author of confusion (I Cor 14:33).

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Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

There are many non-believers in God who are just as illogical in reaching the views that they have, and yet false claim that they are the ones being rational, when in fact they just choose a different set of beliefs.

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You are correct in that Atheism is a belief in the non-existence of God.

Asalam alkum warkmatulah wabrkatuh my brothers and sisters i would like to say something why are you brothers and sisters saying fi_sibililah's mistakes or errors he wrote this article so people can understand allah (swt) and most of you people are correcting mistakes you read to gain knowledge not to correct mistakes ok so please keep that in mind and sorry to be rude May Allah (swt) bless us and let us go to paridise AMEEM :w: FONT]

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Originally Posted by Yanal

why are you brothers and sisters saying fi_sibililah's mistakes or errors he wrote this article so people can understand allah (swt) and most of you people are correcting mistakes you read to gain knowledge not to correct mistakes

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Please, clarify your point, perhaps by stating your point in another way. I am not aware of anyone pointing out any mistakes in the original message. I thought that it was extremely well written and accurate.

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Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

I found this and wanted to ask you, of your take on it
"DEVOTION TO THE MOST HOLY MARY

(This instruction may serve either for an instruction or for a sermon; but whether it be given in the form of an instruction or of a sermon, the person who gives the spiritual exercises to the priests is entreated not to omit this discourse, which is, perhaps, the most fruitful of all; for without devotion to the divine Mother it is morally impossible for any one to be a good priest.)"

from this website http://biblelight.net/omnip.htm

what does Divine Mary mean?... Maybe it is my poor english skills, It is after all not my mother tongue or even my second language but this is what I found in meriam webster
Main Entry: 1di·vine
Pronunciation: d&-'vIn
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): di·vin·er; -est
Etymology: Middle English divin, from Anglo-French, from Latin divinus, from divus god -- more at DEITY

Also my take from the writer that he himself thinks it blasphemy to exalt her to such a status... and thankfully the article isn't written by a Muslim!

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LOL

What to tell you? I think that this person is the one who needs to take a remedial course in English. "Divine" as this person used the term would indeed imply a beleif in Mary as divine. Yet, I also know enough about Catholic teachings in this matter to know that this would be considered to be in error by the Roman Catholic Church.

Sorry, beyond that I can't help you with the discrepency.

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Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

that this would be considered to be in error by the Roman Catholic Church.
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Yes, a cardinal sin of an error!
:w:

Greetings,

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Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

With all due respect, we have heard some of the best in atheist logic-- and the zen of a zero dividing isn't all that logical. Nor readily accepted by a rational mind! Unless you can come up with something better than the so called logical fallacies in the art of debate to disprove the existence of G-D.. are your arguments against his existence just as deficient!

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Sorry, I couldn't make head or tail of that.

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Many a "rational" persons can't grasp readily accepted logical concepts, from inverse of a c-cycle permuation to the making of cerebral spinal fluid, but that doesn't invalidate the concepts nor does it preclude from their existence.

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What you've mentioned are a mathematical and a biological concept respectively. I don't know why you call them logical concepts.

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True. But, not everyone who claims to be listening with logic is exactly doing that either. There are many non-believers in God who are just as illogical in reaching the views that they have, and yet false claim that they are the ones being rational, when in fact they just choose a different set of beliefs. They are in fact no more logical in reaching those conclusions than the theists.

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I take your point. Atheism is a belief, and hasn't been proven with logic. Agnosticism is more logically rigorous, in that it sees no evidence to support the existence of god and so takes a neutral position. I believe atheism is true largely because I think it is far more likely that god was invented by humans than that he actually exists.

Peace