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A Message To The Non-Muslims.

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    A Message To The Non-Muslims. (OP)


    A Message To The Non-Muslims After which they are not Excused by Ignorance


    Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem

    Dear Reader,

    The purpose of this message is to invite you to think of and contemplate about the real purpose of your life on this earth and where you will end up in the Hereafter. Will you end up in Paradise or in Hell-Fire? Please, take note, that when you have read this message, you are considered to have legislatively been given proof and been informed of the admonition of all messengers, and after which you will not be excused by ignorance:

    Take note that Allah the Almighty is the One and Only God. He is Eternal. He is Absolute. He has not begotten and has not been begotten and no one is like Him.
    • Allah says: Say: He is Allah, the One; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him. Surah No.112, Verses 1-4.
    • Allah says: He is the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees. Surah No. 42, Verse No. 11.
    Learn that Allah the Almighty is the Creator of all creatures. There is no god for this universe and what it holds but Allah.
    • Allah says: Allah is the Creator Of all things, and He is the Guardian and Disposer of all affairs. Surah No.39 Verse 62.
    • Allah says: Such is Allah, your Lord, The Creator of all things, there is no god but He: Then how you are deluded away from the Truth! Surah No.40, Verse No.62.
    • Allah says: To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and earth: To Allah do all matters return. Surah No.3 Verse No. 109.
    Be informed that Allah the Almighty has created you for one single purpose which is to worship Him alone.
    • Allah says: I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me. Surah No.51 Verse No. 56.
    Allah says: And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to give zakat (i.e. charity given to the needy); and that is the Religion Right and Straight. Surah No.98, Verse No. 5.

    Understand that it is out of sincerity and purity of worship to Allah to avoid worshipping the created whoever and whatever they may be.
    • Allah says: Certainly they disbelieve who say: “(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, - Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. Surah No. 5, Verse No. 72.
    Allah says: Say: "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him any (false god).” Surah No 72, Verse No. 20.

    Allah says: Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your God is one God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner. Surah No. 18, Verse No. 110.

    Allah says: Those to whom We have given the Book rejoice at what hath been revealed unto thee: but there are among the clans those who reject a part thereof. Say: "I am commanded to worship Allah, and not to join partners with Him. Unto Him do I call, and unto Him is my return. Surah No. 13, Verse No. 36.

    Learn that he, who worships Allah joining with Him another whoever or whatever it may be, has associated partners with Allah and consequently his deeds will turn fruitless and he will be among the losers.
    • Allah says: But it has already been revealed to thee, - as it was to those before thee, - “if thou wert to join (gods with Allah), truly fruitless will be thy work (in life), and thou wilt surely be among the losers. Surah No. 29, Verse No. 65.

    Allah says: This is the Guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His servants if they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them. Surah No. 6, Verse No.88.

    Take note that Allah the Almighty sent all Prophets and Messengers to reinforce and remind people that there is no god but Allah. That is nothing is worthy of being worshipped but Allah.
    • Allah says: “For we assuredly sent amongst every people a Messenger, (with the command), “serve Allah, and eschew Evil”: of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). Surah No.16, Verse No. 36.

    Allah says: Not a messenger did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.” Surah 21 Verse 25. There is no prophet who said to his people but: We sent Noah to his people. He said: “O my people! Worship Allah! Ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the Punishment of a dreadful Day! Surah No. 7, Verse No. 59.

    Be informed that having faith and believing in all Prophets and Messengers is a must. If anyone rejects faith or doesn’t believe one Prophet or Messenger of Allah’s the Almighty, they are rejecting faith in Allah and disbelieving Him and all His Prophets and Messengers.
    • Allah says: “The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith, each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers. “We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of his Messengers.” And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 285.
    Allah says: “‘Verily it has been revealed to us that the Chastisement (awaits) those who reject and turn away. Surah No. 20, Verse No. 48.

    Allah says: And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?” Surah No.29, Verse No. 68.

    Allah says: Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which we sent Our messengers: but soon shall they know. Surah No. 40, Verse No. 70.

    Be informed that Muhammad bin Abudullah bin Abdullmutalib (Peace and Blessings of Allah Be Upon Him) (PBBUH ) is the Messenger of Allah, who was sent by Allah as mercy to the worlds, giving glad tidings and warnings and that he is the seal of all Prophets and messengers and there is no Prophet after him.
    • Allah says: “Muhammad is no more than a Messenger: many were the Messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 144.

    Allah says: “Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures),-in the Taurat and the Gospel; - for he commands them what is just and Forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure): He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him, - it is they who will prosper.” Surah No. 7, verse No. 157.


    Allah says: “Say: “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to who belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger. The unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words, follow him that (so) ye may be guided. Surah No. 7, Verse No. 158.


    Allah says: “Now hath come to you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that you should suffer, ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful”. Surah No. 9, Verse No. 128.

    Allah says: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets. And Allah has full knowledge of all things. Surah No. 33, Verse No. 40.

    Allah says: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah… Surah No 48, Verse No. 29.

    Allah says: And remember, Jesus, the Son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he came to them with Clear Signs, They said, “This is evident sorcery! Surah No.61, Verse No.6. Take note that Allah the Almighty revealed to Muhammad (PBBUH) the Holy Quran which is the word of Allah and which contains Guidance and Light for the worlds. It has alsoexplanation of everything.
    • Allah says: “Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down The Qur’an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong) so every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spent it in fasting, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you: He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. Surah No.2, Verse No.185.

    Allah says: Say: “What thing is most weighty in evidence?” say: “Allah is witness between me and you; this Qur’an hath been revealed to me by inspiration. That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?” say: “Nay! I cannot bear witness! Surah No. 6, Verse No. 19.

    Allah says: Verily this Quran doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the glad tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 9.

    Allah says: “We send down (stage by stage) of the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 82.

    Allah says: “As for thee, thou receives theQuran from One All-Wise, All-Knowing.Surah No. 27, Verse No. 6.

    Allah says: And We have explained to man, in this Quran, every kind of similitude: yet greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with gratitude! Surah No. 17, Verse No. 89.

    Appreciate that the Holy Quran, which was revealed to Allah’s Prophet (PBBUH), has been the Greatest Evident Miracle Ever. It is continuing and everlastingly challenging all mankind gathered together to produce something like it or like one of its Surahs.
    • Allah says: “Say: ‘if the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.’ Surah No. 17, Verse No. 88.

    Allah says: “And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witness or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if ye are truthful. Surah No. 2, Verse No. 23.

    Be informed that Allah has ordered all mankind no matter what their colours, sexes; languages may be to believe in Muhammad the Prophet (PBBUP), follow him and obey him. He who obeys the Prophet (PBBUH) obeys Allah and consequently he will be on the right path; and; he who disobeysthe Prophet (PBBUH), disobeys Allah and consequently he will be on the wrong path.
    • Allah says: “Say: “Obey Allah and His Messenger”: but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject faith. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 32.

    Allah says: O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). Surah No. 8, Verse No. 20.

    Allah says: He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah… Surah No. 4, Verse No. 80.

    Allah says: “Say: “if ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most merciful. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 31. Take note that he who hears of Muhammad the Prophet (PBBUH) and neither believes in him nor follows him is a disbeliever in Allah, rejecting faith in Him andconsequently worthy to be tortured on the Day of Judgement.
    • Allah says: “We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: It is not thee they reject: It is the Signs of Allah, which the wicked deny. Surah No. 6, Verse No. 33.

    Allah says: On that day those who reject Faith and disobey the Messenger will wish that the earth were made one with them: but never will they hide a single fact from Allah! Surah No. 4, Verse No. 42.

    Allah says: “If anyone contends with the Messenger even after Guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men to Faith, we shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- What an evil refuge! Surah No. 4, Verse No. 115.


    The Prophet (PBBUH) says: “By the One in whose hands Muhammad’s soul is, if anyone, anywhere in the world, whether a Jew or Christian hears of me and dies without believing in my Message will definitely be amongst those in Hell-Fire. (Muslim)

    Take note that the Religion before Allah is Islam and it is the religion of all Prophets and Messengers. No religion is accepted of anyone but Islam.
    • Allah says: And Abraham enjoined upon his sons and so did Jacob;” Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Me). Surah No. 2, Verse No.132.

    Allah says: “
    The Religion before Allah is Islam..Surah No. 3, Verse No. 19.


    Allah says: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost. Surah No. 3, Verse No.85.

    Be informed that resurrection after death is coming and absolutely true; the Hour is coming and absolutely true and theaccountability on doomsday is absolutely true.
    • Allah says: “Lost indeed are they who treat it as a falsehood that they must meet Allah, - until on a sudden the Hour is on them, and they say: “Ah! Woe unto us that we neglected; for they bear their burdens on their backs, and evil indeed are the burdens that they bear? Surah No. 6 Verse No. 31.

    Allah says: Verily the Hour is coming- I have almost kept it hidden- for every soul to receive its reward by the measure of its Endeavour.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 15.

    Allah says: And verily the Hour will come: there can be no doubt about it, or about (the fact) that Allah will raise up all who are in the graves. Surah No. 22, Verse No. 7.

    Allah says: The Unbelievers say, “Never to us will come the Hour”: say, “Nay! But most surely, by my Lord, it will come upon you;… Surah No 34, Verse No. 3.

    Allah says: The Hour will certainly come: therein is no doubt: yet most men believe not. Surah No. 40, Verse No. No. 59.

    Allah says: Again, on the Day of Judgement, will ye be raised up. Surah No. 23, Verse No. 16.

    Allah says: Allah is never unjust in the least degree: if there is any good (done), He doubleth it, and giveth from His Own self a great reward. Surah No. 4, Verse No. 40.

    Allah says: Then shall anyone who has done an atom’s weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom’s weight of evil, shall see it. Surah No. 99, Verses Nos. 7-8. Learn that Paradise and its bounties are absolutely true, therein everlasting goodness and bounties of which no ear has ever heard of, or an eye has ever seen or a mind has ever been able to imagine. All this has been prepared Allah’s righteous believers.
    • Allah says: The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised! - beneath it flow rivers; perpetual is the fruits therof and the shade therein: such is the End of the Righteous and the End of the Unbelievers is the Fire. Surah No. 13, Verse No. 35.

    Allah says: But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow, every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: “Why, this what we were fed with before,” for that are given things in similitude; and they have therein spouses purified; and they abide therein (forever).” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 25.

    Allah says: But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness- to them shall We give a Home in Heaven, - lofty mansions beneath which flow rivers, -to dwell therein for aye; an excellent reward for those who do (good)! Surah No. 29, Verse No. 58.

    Allah says: Verily the Companions of the Garden shall that Day have joy in all that they do. Surah No. 36, Verse No. 55.

    Allah says: (Here is) the description of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water unstaling; rivers of Milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Forgiveness from their Lord, (can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell fro ever in the Fire and be given to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? Surah No.47, Verse No. 15.

    Allah says: Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous. Surah No.3 Verse No 133.


    Allah says: “Be ye foremost (in seeking) forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of heaven and earth prepared for those who believe in Allah and His messengers: that is the Grace of Allah, which He bestows on whom He pleases: and Allah is the Lord of Grace abounding. Surah No. 57, Verse No. 21.

    Learn that the Hell fire is absolutely true; its torture in is true; and fierce. It has a torture that is extremely fierce, harsh, and perpetual. Its torture is something that no ear has ever heard of, or an eye has ever seen or a mind has ever been able to imagine. All this has been prepared for those who associate partners with Allah and who made it false to believe in Allah.
    • Allah says: “Know they not that for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger is the Fire of Hell? - Wherein they shall dwell. That is the supreme disgrace.Surah No.9, Verse No. 63.

    Allah says: …on the Day of Judgement we shall gather them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 97.

    Allah says:And We shall drive the sinners to hell, (like thirsty cattle driven down to water) Surah No. 19, Verse No. 86.

    Allah says: “Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgement), -for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live. Surah No. 20, Verse No. 74.

    Allah says: But those who reject (Allah) - for them will be the Fire of Hell: not term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Chastisement be lightened for them. Thus do WE reward every ungrateful. Surah No. 35, Verse No. 36.

    Allah says: “The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in groups: until, when they arrive there, its gates will be opened. And its Keepers will say, “Did not messengers come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?” The answer will be: “True: but the Decree of Chastisement has been proved true against the Unbelievers! Surah No. 39, Verse No. 71.

    Take note that if you die believing in the oneness of God and in Muhammad (PBBUH), Allah’s last Messenger, you will be amongst those who will be saved and led into Paradise to live in its bounties for ever.
    • Allah says: “But such as come to Him as Believers who have worked righteous deeds, for them are ranks exalted.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 75.
    Whereas, if you die associating partners with Allah, disbelieving in Him and rejecting faith in Him, you will be among thosewhowill be in Hell Fire for ever and ever.
    • Allah says: “But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raisehim up blind on the Day of Judgement.SurahNo. 20, Verse 124.

    Allah says: “And who does more wrong than one to whom are recited the Signs of his Lord, and who then turns way therefrom? Verily from those who transgress We shall exact (due) retribution.” Surah No. 32, Verse no. 22.

    Allah says: “Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgement),-for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 74

    Allah says: “…and if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 217

    Be informed that there is no force in religion; the right path is clear and the wrong path is clear. So after you have read and thought of and contemplated about the above message, you will not be excused by ignorance. As the warnings and message of all messengers have now reached you, you will be brought to account and be accountable on the Day of Judgment when there is no benefit for money or children but only for those who will come with good deeds and clear hearts. Finally take note that the devils of mankind and Jinn’s and the wicked of the learned among them are scheming day and night to prevent you from listening to this message and to any other message that speaks of the Truth.

    We pray to Allah that He helps you find the right path and guide you to what pleases Him

    Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds


    PathtoParadise
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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Report bad ads?

    I'm Christian, but I accept Muhammad as a messenger/prophet of God.

    You cant be a christian and in the same time accept Muhammad as the prophet of God. Just like you cant be muslim and believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God.
    For christians Muhammad was just a historical person, like Julius Cesear or Napoleon, who created religion called islam using some christian and jewish beliefs.

    I said this simply to clarify some things.
    Last edited by Amadeus85; 06-18-2007 at 01:27 AM.

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    Muslim Woman's Avatar Super Moderator
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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

    With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


    Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

    &&


    format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85 View Post
    You cant be a christian and in the same time accept Muhammad as the prophet of God. ...

    haha , i posted about a Christian lady in random interesting news : She wants to die as 100 % Chrisitian & 100 % Muslim


    don't know how it's possible but she believes she can do it


    Verses of the day :



    Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists,


    and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say:


    We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.


    And when they hear what has been revealed to the apostle you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize;


    they say: Our Lord! we believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth).



    (Al-Ma'idah 5: 82- 83)
    Last edited by Muslim Woman; 06-18-2007 at 02:20 AM.
    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

  5. #103
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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum View Post
    It is obvious that there is at least four.
    I can think of 5.

    D, God is adequate at communication but WANTS people to misunderstand his message. This seems the logical choice if God is all powerful.

    E, God does not exist and all of this is created by man.

  6. #104
    Abdul Fattah's Avatar Full Member
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    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Verse of the day :

    And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize; they say:
    Our Lord! We believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth)
    (Al-Ma'idah 5:83)
    I thought it would be benefisial to add previous verse, as to reveal who this verse is directed to:

    Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.(5:82)
    And when they hear what has been revealed to the messenger you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize; they say: Our Lord! we believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth).(5:83)

    format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis View Post
    I can think of 5.

    D, God is adequate at communication but WANTS people to misunderstand his message. This seems the logical choice if God is all powerful.

    E, God does not exist and all of this is created by man.
    Ok, I stand corrected, the reason I didn't added those two was because of my bias.

    We believe shaytan has no power to mislead us unless God allows it to. So that's why I didn't made this distinction between my option 3 and your option D.

    As for E, although my second option acknowledge the existence of God, I think you could see how I didn't bother to make a difference between those two.
    Last edited by Abdul Fattah; 06-19-2007 at 01:57 AM. Reason: merged two consequtive posts into one
    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Check out my website for my conversion story.
    Check out my free e-book if you like reading drama-novels.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    Sorry I haven't been 100% clear, what I meant was not that Jesus (peace be upon him) brought a distorted message. What I meant was that the message was distorted after him.
    And after months on this forum, reading post after post that claims to have "proven" this point to me, that the "true" message of Jesus was distorted by Paul and others, I have yet to read anything that is even near convincing of this viewpoint. I hear that Islam is a "logical" and "rational" religion. I don't see that to be true at all. From where I stand, it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but every attempt of even the most learned of my Islamic brothers to share this story with me comes across as nothing more than an attempt to sell snake oil as medicine, and often even less.

    I haven't lost any respect for those individuals who follow Islam. There are parts of it that I even deeply appreciate. But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    Sorry I haven't been 100% clear, what I meant was not that Jesus (peace be upon him) brought a distorted message. What I meant was that the message was distorted after him.



    the doubt he had at first was from the shock of meeting djibriel. I think anyone would be shocked from such an event.

    You say that many prophets support the message of Jesus (peace be upon him) including Jesus himself (peace be upon, him). But how can that be? According to Christians there has been no prophet after Jesus (peace be upon him). So how can another prophet have supported the message? And the Bible was compiled and partially written after Jesus, peace be upon him so how could he have supported it?

    I guess you mean other prophets confirmed it because it was similar to what they said. In that case, you could say the Qur'an is also confirmed, because it also says the same thing as earlier prophets say. The only things it contradicts Christianity on are things like the trinity, or celibacy. And those things are only derived from very vague verses of the NT and is nowhere to be found in the OT. In fact all other prophets spoke of God closer in terms to the Islamic monotheism rather then of a Christian trinity.
    First of all, there have been no prophets that ever acted the way Muhammad did about there revelation. I believe to say the prophet was shocked instead of doubted the source of his visions and dreams is a distortion of what the truth is about what really happened. The Old Testament is replete with the promise of Jesus and his purpose. As far as the celibacy thing is concerned, that is big with Catholic priest and not necessary for salvation. But when it comes to Jesus being the Son of the living God, there can be no compromise and that is where we clash and draw the line. If you don't believe that Jesus is he, with all do respect, you will experience a Christless eternity, and since Jesus is the only way to God, well, do the math.
    Until He comes, Peace

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    And after months on this forum, reading post after post that claims to have "proven" this point to me, that the "true" message of Jesus was distorted by Paul and others, I have yet to read anything that is even near convincing of this viewpoint. I hear that Islam is a "logical" and "rational" religion. I don't see that to be true at all. From where I stand, it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but every attempt of even the most learned of my Islamic brothers to share this story with me comes across as nothing more than an attempt to sell snake oil as medicine, and often even less.

    I haven't lost any respect for those individuals who follow Islam. There are parts of it that I even deeply appreciate. But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.
    That has happened to me too. The more I listen and read about the Qur'an draws me closer to the Bible by making me appreciate even more than before. It is written that all things work together for the good to them that love the lord and are called according to his purpose.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    And after months on this forum, reading post after post that claims to have "proven" this point to me, that the "true" message of Jesus was distorted by Paul and others, I have yet to read anything that is even near convincing of this viewpoint. I hear that Islam is a "logical" and "rational" religion. I don't see that to be true at all. From where I stand, it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but every attempt of even the most learned of my Islamic brothers to share this story with me comes across as nothing more than an attempt to sell snake oil as medicine, and often even less.

    I haven't lost any respect for those individuals who follow Islam. There are parts of it that I even deeply appreciate. But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.
    format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
    I understand all you say, and to some point, I actually agree; however, I don't believe it is possible that so many prophets and apostles have a distorted message especially when it is a testimony to what many have seen and heard. Like I mentioned earlier Muhammad is the main messenger that supports a distored view of the Bible. Since Muhammad doubted his own revelations as being from God, I doubt them even more. It is more likely that one will be mistaken rather than many prophets and apostles supporting the same message about Jesus including Jesus himself.
    I agree whole-heartedly with both of the above. I will go even further, though, to say this, with all due respect for all Muslims on this board and everywhere:

    If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

    I think the main reason Muslims view what the Bible says as "distorted" is that it contradicts what they have initially accepted as the truth of Islam and the Quran. Obviously, if Muslims believed the Bible first, that it is true and accurate in all that it relates, they would have a problem when they came to the Quran, which has a totally different message, when it comes to the nature of God and how a person gets to heaven (the Trinity and the Atonement). But since the Bible came first, it seems to me anyone really wanting to know the truth would have to first be shown how the first revelation is distorted BEFORE even looking at the later revelation. The problem with that is there is no proof of distortion. No one can show what the Bible said before the alleged distortion occurred, nor how it occurred, nor when it occurred, or that it occurred.

    God is a God of TRUTH. Satan is the father of lies. With two diametrically opposed holy books saying opposite things as being the Word of God, they can't both be right in those two crucial areas, the nature of God and the way a person gets to heaven. They might both be wrong, but they can't both be right. If ONE is true, the other is a lie. If God is the author of one, Satan is the author of the other. Christians and Muslims each believe their respective holy book is the TRUTH authored by God (in the ultimate sense). The conclusion is inescapable that they also believe that the other's "holy book" is UNTRUE and the work of Satan.

    In addition the lack of evidence of the Bible's message being distorted, the Bible itself is a work that flows in its theme across multiple human authors (prophets, apostles, etc.) and over thousands of year, showing a consistency of plan and purpose, and showing the divine hand of God throughout. The O.T. is fulfilled in the N.T., which concludes with a warning against anyone adding to it. All the truth of the N.T. is for all people and for all time and needs no new revelation from any new prophets. All the prophecies concerning Christ in the O.T. find their fulfillment in the Christ of the N.T. The N.T. concludes with a vision of the end of this earth and the coming of a new heavens and a new earth and eternity. The Quran, on the other hand, serves no purpose which is consistent with O.T. and N.T. There just is NO indication that the God of the O.T. and N.T. is the same as Allah and giving additional revelation which becomes the Quran. Where and why would it fit into the N.T. picture which covers everything all the way to eternity? Again, the message of the N.T. was for all people ("go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" includes Jew and Gentile---everyone) for all time.

    What I said in another thread is quotable here: Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) has supposedly ended up in Islam. But Islam is a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not consistent with O.T. and N.T., not right, and just plain not of God. And it doesn't even make sense.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Salaam/ peace ;


    Grace Seeker : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.


    ---well , I guess , Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p) .


    But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.

    That’s funny ….care to explain a little more ?


    Phil12123 : If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.





    Really ???? A human being can beat God Almighty in fighting…..this is logical ?????? Why not ask any non – Muslim / non- Christian about the story where God was beaten by a Prophet ? Let me know which judge / jury board u find gives ans that yap , it’s a logical story.



    I seriously request u to know about the ans from a neutral person. Surely , we are not going to change our faith after hearing the ans …I m just curious to know , how a logical person can accept this story that human being are more powerful than God.


    But when it comes to Jesus being the Son of the living God, there can be no compromise
    Yes , u r right , there is no compromise....to u , denying this is blasphemy , to us uttering this is blasphemy.



    Christians are making simple statement of Jesus (p) very complicated. Jesus ( p) openly declared that "My Father is greater than I." but Christians are denying to accept this simple truth.



    May be , when Christian will be ready to accept the simple matter as simple & won’t make the matters complicated , then the differences between Muslims & Christians will be reduced.


    Really , sometimes it’s so hard to visit this forum

    May be , we should visit halal fun only for the time being



    Verse of the day :


    And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful.



    But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers ( 2: 23-24)
    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123 View Post
    I agree whole-heartedly with both of the above. I will go even further, though, to say this, with all due respect for all Muslims on this board and everywhere:

    If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

    I think the main reason Muslims view what the Bible says as "distorted" is that it contradicts what they have initially accepted as the truth of Islam and the Quran. Obviously, if Muslims believed the Bible first, that it is true and accurate in all that it relates, they would have a problem when they came to the Quran, which has a totally different message, when it comes to the nature of God and how a person gets to heaven (the Trinity and the Atonement). But since the Bible came first, it seems to me anyone really wanting to know the truth would have to first be shown how the first revelation is distorted BEFORE even looking at the later revelation. The problem with that is there is no proof of distortion. No one can show what the Bible said before the alleged distortion occurred, nor how it occurred, nor when it occurred, or that it occurred.

    God is a God of TRUTH. Satan is the father of lies. With two diametrically opposed holy books saying opposite things as being the Word of God, they can't both be right in those two crucial areas, the nature of God and the way a person gets to heaven. They might both be wrong, but they can't both be right. If ONE is true, the other is a lie. If God is the author of one, Satan is the author of the other. Christians and Muslims each believe their respective holy book is the TRUTH authored by God (in the ultimate sense). The conclusion is inescapable that they also believe that the other's "holy book" is UNTRUE and the work of Satan.

    In addition the lack of evidence of the Bible's message being distorted, the Bible itself is a work that flows in its theme across multiple human authors (prophets, apostles, etc.) and over thousands of year, showing a consistency of plan and purpose, and showing the divine hand of God throughout. The O.T. is fulfilled in the N.T., which concludes with a warning against anyone adding to it. All the truth of the N.T. is for all people and for all time and needs no new revelation from any new prophets. All the prophecies concerning Christ in the O.T. find their fulfillment in the Christ of the N.T. The N.T. concludes with a vision of the end of this earth and the coming of a new heavens and a new earth and eternity. The Quran, on the other hand, serves no purpose which is consistent with O.T. and N.T. There just is NO indication that the God of the O.T. and N.T. is the same as Allah and giving additional revelation which becomes the Quran. Where and why would it fit into the N.T. picture which covers everything all the way to eternity? Again, the message of the N.T. was for all people ("go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" includes Jew and Gentile---everyone) for all time.

    What I said in another thread is quotable here: Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) has supposedly ended up in Islam. But Islam is a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not consistent with O.T. and N.T., not right, and just plain not of God. And it doesn't even make sense.
    Amen, Amen, Amen

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Grace Seeker : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.

    ---well, I guess, Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p).
    The point is that they'd have more than ONE man (Jesus) to speak against. In fact, none of the writings of the NT were written by Him. Jews would have to contend with Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude. And all of them are consistent in proclaiming the truth they write. Both OT and NT give the standard, "that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." The NT has at least 8 witnesses. We don't have to take the word of ONE man, Muhammad, that he really was visited by Gabriel, etc. So it is much easier to conclude that one man was wrong in what he wrote rather than 8 wrong.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Phil12123: If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

    Really???? A human being can beat God Almighty in fighting…..this is logical ?????? Why not ask any non–Muslim / non-Christian about the story where God was beaten by a Prophet? Let me know which judge / jury board u find gives ans that yap, it’s a logical story.

    I seriously request u to know about the ans from a neutral person. Surely, we are not going to change our faith after hearing the ans …I m just curious to know,how a logical person can accept this story that human being are more powerful than God.
    What? "...beat God Almighty in fighting"? What "fighting"???? Where does that thought come from? I think it is the Muslim mindset. For Jesus (God in the flesh) to go to the cross and lay down His life in payment of the sins of the world, is so strange to the Muslim mindset that it equals defeat of God by His human enemies. So it is considered illogical and the story is concocted that God in heaven "rescued" Jesus to defeat His enemies. Right? Well, that is wrong, wrong, wrong. Though His spirit was willing and His flesh weak, Jesus voluntarily came to earth for that very purpose, to lay down His life to pay mankind's sin debt. He said,

    John 10:
    11. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
    12. "But he who is a hireling and not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
    13. "The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
    14. "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
    15. "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
    16. "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
    17. "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
    18. "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.''


    Is that so hard to understand? There is no defeat, except of Satan. Hebrews 2:14 --- Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Christians are making simple statement of Jesus (p) very complicated. Jesus (p) openly declared that "My Father is greater than I." but Christians are denying to accept this simple truth.

    Maybe, when Christian will be ready to accept the simple matter as simple & won’t make the matters complicated, then the differences between Muslims & Christians will be reduced.
    Yes, Jesus makes a simple statement there in John 14:28, and Christians believe it, IN ITS CONTEXT. We don't try to avoid it by saying it has been distorted or corrupted. NONE of the NT has. But what does it mean? S/He that has ears to hear, let him/her hear. Let's look at that verse in context:

    John 14:
    24. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
    25. "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.
    26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
    27. "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
    28. "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
    29. "And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe."


    In context, Jesus is speaking of His ascension to the Father after His death and resurrection. He says these words, however, while still in the earthly body He assumed when "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). At that time, He had taken on "the form of a servant" and had come "in the likeness of men," all before He had gone to the cross (Phil. 2:7-8). Prior to that, He was "in the form of God...equal with God" (Phil. 2:6), but He "made Himself of no reputation" and "humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." We are then told, "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:9-10).

    So, while in His humbled state in the form of a servant/slave, Jesus could well say that "My Father is greater than I." Greater in terms of position and glory (at that time), but NOT in terms of essence, substance, or nature. In that state, Jesus prayed in the Garden before His crucifixion, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). When He became flesh He temporarily set aside that glory and position equal with the Father and came to earth in total submission to His Father. However, when He went back to the Father, He was "highly exalted" and regained that glory and position, so, He tells His disciples, "You should rejoice that I go to My Father." Of course, at that time, the disciples didn't understand any of that; they didn't even understand why He had to lay down His life and not set up His earthly kingdom right then. Today, we have the whole, big picture and can understand it all, if we choose to.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.




    Salaam/ peace ;


    format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123 View Post
    [B]The point is that they'd have more than ONE man (Jesus) to speak against.
    -----ok , take example of Jesus (p) only ....what proof do u have except ur holy book that he ever existed ?




    What? "...beat God Almighty in fighting"? What "fighting"???? Where does that thought come from? I think it is the Muslim mindset.
    I m asking about Prophet Jacob's (p) fighting with God Almighty......don't u belive in that story ???


    [B]Yes, Jesus makes a simple statement there in John 14:28, and Christians believe it, IN ITS CONTEXT....... and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
    ----huh .........Jesus (p) repeatedly told u it's the Father who sent him , it's the order of father to speak out.....thus , in ur Bible , it's clear that God is more powerful than Jesus (p) .....ALWAYS.......God is always giving orders ......Jesus (p) never oredered God to do anything or did he ?????



    So, while in His humbled state in the form of a servant/slave, Jesus could well say that "My Father is greater than I."

    ----is there any verse in Bible -----My son is greater than I ????



    .....Greater in terms of position and glory (at that time), but NOT in terms of essence, substance, or nature.
    And who created these complicated explanations ......Jesus (p) ?????


    Last edited by Muslim Woman; 06-18-2007 at 04:26 PM.
    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Greetings,

    Sorry to interrupt - I'd like to address this point:

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
    ok , take example of Jesus (p) only ....what proof do u have except ur holy book that he ever existed ?
    Evidence that Jesus did exist is not hard to find. Aside from the NT, he's mentioned in the works of Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger. None of these guys were followers of Jesus, and Pliny actively persecuted Christians. Why would they lie?

    Peace

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    ---ok, take example of Jesus (p) only ....what proof do u have except ur holy book that he ever existed?
    What? Muslims don't deny Jesus' existence. Why are YOU? Have you jumped over and joined the atheists here? Even if the Quran is not the word of God, the fact that it mentions Jesus, even as just a prophet, should be enough to tell you He existed, unless the whole book is a work of fiction.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    I'm asking about Prophet Jacob's (p) fighting with God Almighty......don't u believe in that story ???
    Sure, but what does that story have to do with anything we were talking about?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    ----huh .........Jesus (p) repeatedly told u it's the Father who sent him, it's the order of father to speak out.....thus, in ur Bible, it's clear that God is more powerful than Jesus (p) .....ALWAYS.......God is always giving orders ......Jesus (p) never oredered God to do anything or did he ?????
    When Jesus left heaven and humbled Himself (lowered Himself) and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, He was in perfect and total submission to the will of His Father. He came to do the Father's will, to say what the Father wanted Him to say, to do what the Father wanted Him to do, and He said that He said and did only what the Father wanted Him to. It is not a matter of POWER, but a matter of submission and humility. Of course, in that situation, He is not ordering the Father around, nor is He ever. No member of the Godhead "orders" another; they are in perfect harmony. There are no power struggles. You're using human reasoning to even come up with such a question.


    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    ----is there any verse in Bible -----My son is greater than I ????
    No, of course not. In essence, substance and nature, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal. They are the ONE God. The Father never takes a position lower than the Son; He doesn't need to. But the Son needed to take a lower position in order to take on flesh and die for our sins.


    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    And who created these complicated explanations ......Jesus (p) ?????
    Who created God? God is "complicated" because He is God. It is amazing that He lets us know as much as He does, concerning His nature, etc. For us to really understand God is like two ants talking to each other and explaining humans. If somehow we could tell the ants a few things about us, they still wouldn't really have the capacity to know much, would they?

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Salaam/ peace ;
    Grace Seeker:
    it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.

    ---well , I guess , Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p) .
    Indeed the Jews on this board would agree with you in making that statement.


    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Grace Seeker:
    But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.
    That’s funny ….care to explain a little more ?
    Before I came here, I knew enough about Islam to have respect for it, it's people, and those things that they respected including Mohammad (pbuh) and its scriptures, the Qur'an. Well, I try to maintain that respect. But when I find that people discount the New Testamanet for some of the reasons I see expressed here -- that Paul supposedly wrote it, that what we have are people quoting Jesus not Jesus' own writings, that they believe it was originally written in Greek, or because there are available today multiple copies in English that don't all say the same thing -- then I have to say that they are not using good science nor good logic in formulating their objections to it. Those views are simply not true and no unbiased atheistic historian would make those claims, they are generated by a predisposition against the New Testament. And then it is pointed out how the Qur'an testifies against the New Testament, and given what I find to be a solidly credible New Testament, if the Qur'an really is so solidly disputing the New Testament as being corrupted, that alone proves its falsehood or invention. Next I find the way that Islamic scholars act like priests preserving their rituals to be parralleled only in the worst of some of what Christianity has done. For example, the idea of music being banned is something that I see Muhammad showed great latitude on, and there are some scholars that seem to say the same as I on this issue, but their voices are drowned out by many others. And when these things are explained to me, I don't get it. What I do get is that it is believed that Allah was against it and so we Muslims are to be against it to. I get that concept, but I don't find it as supported by the actual scriptures as people say that it is, and thus I think that what is being upheld is not revealed truth, but mankind's traditional interpretation of that truth.

    Surely, there are plenty of places in Christianity where this last point could be levelled against Christianity as well as against Islam and most religions. But I find that it is the case not just with small issues such as music, but big things such as the Islamic view of the scriptures of the Jews and Christians.

    The more I read and hear talk, the more it looks to me like Muhammad tried to do the best he could to share what he must have picked up in his travels from Jews and Christians and then he coaleased them into some other sort of theology, much like Joseph Smith invented Mormonism. In both cases we have the private revelation that when made public comes tantilziingly close, but not identical to previous revelations. In order to explain the differences, both casts the original revelations as corrupted which their new revelation sets right. There is not explanation of as to how or why the original revelation is corrupted. And indeed in the first telling of these new revelations there is no mentioning of that corruption. The allleged corruption is only mentioned later when the new revelations are questioned or come under attack.

    It's too bad that Muhammad was illiterate and that he did not have regular counsel from a competent priest with a Bible in hand. If he had those things, I expect he might have accomplished even more than he did. He might have even received messages from God initially that awakened him from the pagan culture that he was raised in to an awareness of God and a desire to serve him. But it appears to me that he went off on his own, without the continued direction of the Holy Spirit. And the result is just plain bad theology. Close to the truth, but not the real truth, and that is why I can never accept it as being from God.



    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Phil123
    But when it comes to Jesus being the Son of the living God, there can be no compromise
    Yes , u r right , there is no compromise....to u , denying this is blasphemy , to us uttering this is blasphemy.
    This is something that we all appear to agree on.


    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Christians are making simple statement of Jesus (p) very complicated. Jesus ( p) openly declared that "My Father is greater than I." but Christians are denying to accept this simple truth.
    Christians do not deny that the Father is greater than Jesus. Indeed, we affirm that Jesus submitted himself fully to the Father. What we deny is that the Father and the Son are not of one essence. We do not deny that there are distinctions between the three persons, nor do claim that there is a balance of economy between the three persons. We only deny that these three persons are more than one divine being.



    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    May be , when Christian will be ready to accept the simple matter as simple & won’t make the matters complicated , then the differences between Muslims & Christians will be reduced.
    Or maybe Muslims will quit projecting complications into our beliefs that we ourselves do not profess.


    Really , sometimes it’s so hard to visit this forum

    May be , we should visit halal fun only for the time being


    Verse of the day :


    And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful.



    But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers ( 2: 23-24)
    [/quote]

    We do not need to produce more Surahs. We already have the revelation of the incarnate God, the Word made flesh who has dwelt among us. He has made God known to us.
    "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33)

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123 View Post
    I agree whole-heartedly with both of the above. I will go even further, though, to say this, with all due respect for all Muslims on this board and everywhere:

    If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

    I think the main reason Muslims view what the Bible says as "distorted" is that it contradicts what they have initially accepted as the truth of Islam and the Quran. Obviously, if Muslims believed the Bible first, that it is true and accurate in all that it relates, they would have a problem when they came to the Quran, which has a totally different message, when it comes to the nature of God and how a person gets to heaven (the Trinity and the Atonement). But since the Bible came first, it seems to me anyone really wanting to know the truth would have to first be shown how the first revelation is distorted BEFORE even looking at the later revelation. The problem with that is there is no proof of distortion. No one can show what the Bible said before the alleged distortion occurred, nor how it occurred, nor when it occurred, or that it occurred.

    God is a God of TRUTH. Satan is the father of lies. With two diametrically opposed holy books saying opposite things as being the Word of God, they can't both be right in those two crucial areas, the nature of God and the way a person gets to heaven. They might both be wrong, but they can't both be right. If ONE is true, the other is a lie. If God is the author of one, Satan is the author of the other. Christians and Muslims each believe their respective holy book is the TRUTH authored by God (in the ultimate sense). The conclusion is inescapable that they also believe that the other's "holy book" is UNTRUE and the work of Satan.

    In addition the lack of evidence of the Bible's message being distorted, the Bible itself is a work that flows in its theme across multiple human authors (prophets, apostles, etc.) and over thousands of year, showing a consistency of plan and purpose, and showing the divine hand of God throughout. The O.T. is fulfilled in the N.T., which concludes with a warning against anyone adding to it. All the truth of the N.T. is for all people and for all time and needs no new revelation from any new prophets. All the prophecies concerning Christ in the O.T. find their fulfillment in the Christ of the N.T. The N.T. concludes with a vision of the end of this earth and the coming of a new heavens and a new earth and eternity. The Quran, on the other hand, serves no purpose which is consistent with O.T. and N.T. There just is NO indication that the God of the O.T. and N.T. is the same as Allah and giving additional revelation which becomes the Quran. Where and why would it fit into the N.T. picture which covers everything all the way to eternity? Again, the message of the N.T. was for all people ("go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" includes Jew and Gentile---everyone) for all time.

    What I said in another thread is quotable here: Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) has supposedly ended up in Islam. But Islam is a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not consistent with O.T. and N.T., not right, and just plain not of God. And it doesn't even make sense.
    Both Christians and Muslims have a promise, but my preference is to be a Christian. It all started with Abraham's wife Sarah and Hagar Sarah’s handmaid. Ishmael is the seed of Abraham and so is Isaac. Those dudes are brothers. And the whole world is caught up in a family feud. Ishmael has a promise to be a powerful nation which is self-sufficient and Isaac has the seed of promise. The Christians come from the Isaac side and the Muslims come from the Ishmael side which is from the slave girl Hagar. They are both carrying God’s promise, but only one is free. One can serve God in freedom the other cannot therefore they are under the law which brings death. One represents the law and trying to please God with works and the other does it by faith that works through love and works are not the focus. Whom the Son has set free is freed in deed. They do not believe in the Son of God that is why they cannot be free. I pray to God that we can reach our Muslim brothers on this forum. I cannot understand how they can be so tenacious in the light of all the truth they have been presented with. It is written, however, that they would be against every man and every man against them. That is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. It would be better for them if they never heard the truth than to resist it so adamantly. I think it would be better if we go to Turkey, Pakistan or some other Arab Muslim nation that haven’t heard the good news. I know some people that have been starting churches among nominal Muslims. I think most of the Muslims on this forum are hardened to the gospel. The god of this world has blinded their eyes. I think I am going to back off for a while unless God shows me not to. All their arguments against Christianity make no sense and cannot be backed up.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.





    Salaam/ peace ;



    Phil12123: Have you jumped over and joined the atheists here?


    ---may God bless me with death before joining Atheists in faith , Ameen.





    I asked this because Grace Seeker wrote : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.




    So , I want to know , why Christians belief is not a blind faith ? Except some very complicated explanations invented by …..God knows whom ……..what proof do u have that Jesus (p) is God ?




    Originally Posted by Muslim Woman



    I'm asking about Prophet Jacob's (p) fighting with God Almighty......don't u believe in that story ???


    Phil12123 : Sure, but what does that story have to do with anything we were talking about?



    --because u wrote : If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observer………………evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.


    That’s why I asked u to tell the story of Prophet Jacob (p) to a non-Muslim & non-Christian . A human being had a fight with God Almighty & who was the winner ???? Nope , God was not the winner ……….God , the most powerful , our Creator lost the fight .





    I want to hear from a neutral person who’s belief s/he finds more logical …….God can come here , fight with His own creation & was a looser or Muslims are more credible that it’s impossible --- God fought & was beaten.






    Phil12123 : The Father never takes a position lower than the Son; He doesn't need to. But the Son needed to take a lower position ……..



    ------still u deny what Jesus (p) repeatedly told u : "My Father is greater than I." Son was NOT equal to father ………he needed to take a lower position …..u r saying this but not accepting the main truth that , indeed God is greater than all.



    In ur Bible , Father was always in a superior position -- except the case of Jacob (p) .



    If somehow we could tell the ants a few things about us, they still wouldn't really have the capacity to know much, would they?




    --we are not Creator of ants & on the last day , we won’t judge ants. But , God will judge us on the basis of this fact that if we shared oneness of God with someone else or not ?





    So , Pl. be very careful & don’t associate partner with God…..ur holy book , all the blessed Prophets ( pbut ) including Jesus (p) warned u against shirk / blasphemy.




    Grace Seeker : It's too bad that Muhammad was illiterate and that he did not have regular counsel from a competent priest with a Bible in hand



    ---Praise be to God ….. no human being taught Muhammed (p) but God Almighty through His angel .




    Those views are simply not true……. they are generated by a predisposition against the New Testament….. if the Qur'an really is so solidly disputing the New Testament as being corrupted, that alone proves its falsehood or invention…..

    --- huh ……only few days back , I posted from a Christian ( & u confirmed me that it was a Christian site ) that warned Christians from bogus Bible. But , when Quran / Muslims tell that today’ s Bible is corrupted ….Christians object ….why ? :blind:






    u should ask Bible publishers first NOT to warn readers from bogus bible




    It’s a bit funny that Bible publishers are admitting the fact that other Bibles are corrupted but we Muslims have no right to say so .



    I find that it is the case not just with small issues such as music, but big things such as the Islamic view of the scriptures of the Jews and Christians.

    ---Muslims have many faults but praise be to God only , we are not committing blasphemy----the most major sin in Judaism , Christianity & Islam.




    Christians do not deny that the Father is greater than Jesus

    ---- that’s great …..pl. think more about why & how Father is greater than Jesus (p) .





    God Willing , in future , u won’t give importance on extremely complicated explanations & mysteries any more : ) & accept the simple truth that God is greater than Jesus (p) ------ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.



    Or maybe Muslims will quit projecting complications into our beliefs that we ourselves do not profess


    ---so , Trinity is no more a mystery ?





    We do not need to produce more Surahs. We already have the revelation of the incarnate God

    ---ummm , Bible is revelation of ‘’ incarnate ‘’ God but not from God Almighty who was always God but never a human being ?




    Verse of the day—


    Say (O Muhammad ( p ):

    "I am only a warner and there is no Ilâh (god) except God

    (none has the right to be worshipped but God ) the One, the Irresistible

    ( 38: 65 )





    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.




    Salaam/ peace ;


    format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1 View Post
    It all started with Abraham's wife Sarah and Hagar Sarah’s handmaid. ...... The Christians come from the Isaac side and the Muslims come from the Ishmael side which is from the slave girl Hagar. .

    So , u don't respect Prophet Ishmael (p) because his mom was a slave ? even if it's true that Mother Hagar (ra) was a slave , so what ?

    U are denying the fact that she was the honourable wife of a blessed Prophet (p).



    Ur Bible tells u that if a man's First born son is from his wife whom he dislikes , it won't change the status of first born.




    They are both carrying God’s promise, but only one is free......One can serve God in freedom the other cannot therefore they are under the law which brings death
    LOL , u believe , if mom was a slave , it means son has no right to be a Prophet (p) ? Ur holy book says so ???




    They do not believe in the Son of God that is why they cannot be free.
    We do not believe in the Son of God that is why , God Willing , on the last day , we will be free





    I pray to God that we can reach our Muslim brothers on this forum.
    I pray to God that we can reach our Chrisitian brothers & Sisters on this forum & elsewhere





    I cannot understand how they can be so tenacious in the light of all the truth they have been presented with.

    --same here

    I don't understand how Christians can be so tenacious ( errr...don't know the meaning...can guess ) in the light of all the truth they have been presented with.





    It is written, however, that they would be against every man and every man against them. That is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
    --pl. explain




    I think it would be better if we go to Turkey, Pakistan or some other Arab Muslim nation that haven’t heard the good news.


    --don't u worry ....Chrisitians Missionaries have flooded the Muslim Countries .




    IN my country , we have a lot of Christians missionareies / NGO's etc. U will be happy to know that they are trying their best to spread the good news .


    They are telling Muslims that on the last day , because of Jesus (p) , no Christians will get any punishment . Sis Jayda told me that it's not correct that no Chrisitians will get punishment. See , missionaries are even telling lies....so , stop worrying & cheer up


    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post




    Salaam/ peace ;



    Phil12123: Have you jumped over and joined the atheists here?


    ---may God bless me with death before joining Atheists in faith , Ameen.



    I asked this because Grace Seeker wrote : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.




    So , I want to know , why Christians belief is not a blind faith ? Except some very complicated explanations invented by …..God knows whom ……..what proof do u have that Jesus (p) is God ?









    --because u wrote : If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observer………………evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.


    That’s why I asked u to tell the story of Prophet Jacob (p) to a non-Muslim & non-Christian . A human being had a fight with God Almighty & who was the winner ???? Nope , God was not the winner ……….God , the most powerful , our Creator lost the fight .





    I want to hear from a neutral person who’s belief s/he finds more logical …….God can come here , fight with His own creation & was a looser or Muslims are more credible that it’s impossible --- God fought & was beaten.






    Phil12123 : The Father never takes a position lower than the Son; He doesn't need to. But the Son needed to take a lower position ……..



    ------still u deny what Jesus (p) repeatedly told u : "My Father is greater than I." Son was NOT equal to father ………he needed to take a lower position …..u r saying this but not accepting the main truth that , indeed God is greater than all.



    In ur Bible , Father was always in a superior position -- except the case of Jacob (p) .









    --we are not Creator of ants & on the last day , we won’t judge ants. But , God will judge us on the basis of this fact that if we shared oneness of God with someone else or not ?





    So , Pl. be very careful & don’t associate partner with God…..ur holy book , all the blessed Prophets ( pbut ) including Jesus (p) warned u against shirk / blasphemy.




    Grace Seeker : It's too bad that Muhammad was illiterate and that he did not have regular counsel from a competent priest with a Bible in hand



    ---Praise be to God ….. no human being taught Muhammed (p) but God Almighty through His angel .







    --- huh ……only few days back , I posted from a Christian ( & u confirmed me that it was a Christian site ) that warned Christians from bogus Bible. But , when Quran / Muslims tell that today’ s Bible is corrupted ….Christians object ….why ? :blind:






    u should ask Bible publishers first NOT to warn readers from bogus bible




    It’s a bit funny that Bible publishers are admitting the fact that other Bibles are corrupted but we Muslims have no right to say so .






    ---Muslims have many faults but praise be to God only , we are not committing blasphemy----the most major sin in Judaism , Christianity & Islam.







    ---- that’s great …..pl. think more about why & how Father is greater than Jesus (p) .





    God Willing , in future , u won’t give importance on extremely complicated explanations & mysteries any more : ) & accept the simple truth that God is greater than Jesus (p) ------ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.







    ---so , Trinity is no more a mystery ?








    ---ummm , Bible is revelation of ‘’ incarnate ‘’ God but not from God Almighty who was always God but never a human being ?




    Verse of the day—


    Say (O Muhammad ( p ):

    "I am only a warner and there is no Ilâh (god) except God

    (none has the right to be worshipped but God ) the One, the Irresistible

    ( 38: 65 )





    But if you could become an ant, you would be able to communicate with them. That is much like the idea of Jesus God's word in the flesh. You are starting to get it, I think?

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    [COLOR="Blue"]


    So , I want to know , why Christians belief is not a blind faith ? Except some very complicated explanations invented by …..God knows whom ……..what proof do u have that Jesus (p) is God ?
    "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." (John 5:18) This is not in the sense that humans call God Father, because the Jews would not have sought to kill him for that. This is in the sense that Jesus was making himself God. And he does so to such an extent that he claims for himself that which is true of no man, nor even any creature including angels, but can only be true of God: "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself." (John 5:26)

    As Jesus said, "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?" (John 5:44)

    And Jesus, speaking to the Pharisees, also said: "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world." (John 8:23) What world do you suppose Jesus is claiming that he is from? Surely it is a reference to heaven. What human being can claim to be from heaven? Perhaps we will one day go to heaven, but only God and God's angels can claim to be from heaven. Are you going to claim that Jesus was nothing more than an angel? Whatever the case, Jesus is from a different world than other humans. And please don't say any nonsesne about Jesus' use of the turn "Son of God" was not a claim to divinity, the Jews new that it was exactly that, that was the reason they wanted to have him put to death, see John 19:6-7, especially their statement to Pilate-- "he must die because he claimed to be the Son of God."

    You want it spelled out in simple terms like: "I am God." Well, that is exactly what John 8:58 is: "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am'." This is Jesus taking the divine name of God and applying it to himself. And those who speak the language of Jesus indeed clearly understood it that way, for they picked up stones to stone him.

    Jesus can also be seen to make divine claims for himself repeatedly, by his actions and by the response to his words from others: see Luke 5:17-25; John 10:30-33; Matthew 26:63-65; Mark 14:61-64; Luke 22:69-71. Only the blind will not recognize his claims for what they are. The Jews were so prejuidiced by their preconceived (but wrong) beliefs as to what to expect from the Messiah, that they could not recognize Jesus for who he really was. Yet even they recognized who he claimed to be.

    In addition to these words from Jesus' mouth; there is the testimony of his most initimate companions. And there is the testimony of the Holy Spirit in my own life. That is all the proof that I need.


    ---Praise be to God ….. no human being taught Muhammed (p) but God Almighty through His angel .
    My point being that I don't believe that this actually happened.

    ……..except for Muhammad himself saying so, what proof do u have that Muhammad (p) was taught by God?





    --- huh ……only few days back , I posted from a Christian ( & u confirmed me that it was a Christian site ) that warned Christians from bogus Bible. But , when Quran / Muslims tell that today’ s Bible is corrupted ….Christians object ….why ? :blind:

    u should ask Bible publishers first NOT to warn readers from bogus bible

    It’s a bit funny that Bible publishers are admitting the fact that other Bibles are corrupted but we Muslims have no right to say so .
    You seem to confuse, as I mentioned above, the difference between admitting that there are imperfections in Bibles today and saying that the New Testament itself was corrupted. You also vastly overstate the nature of any corruption that actually does exist today. Again, you are blinded by the propaganda you have been fed all of your life. Non-Christian scholars will testify to the reliability of the Christian New Testament as the most well documented of all ancient documents from the Greco-Roman period or before.



    ---Muslims have many faults but praise be to God only , we are not committing blasphemy----the most major sin in Judaism , Christianity & Islam.
    Nor are Christians.


    Luke 11
    29As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. 32The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
    Jesus was greater than a king. Jesus was greater than a prophet. Because Jesus was more than either prophet or king. Jesus was and is God; God who came and dwelled incarnate among us. This is ascribing no partner to God. I am saying that it is Allah himself that walked on earth among us. You may call it shirk, but it is truer than any words ever spoken by the one you call a prophet.

    This thread was written as a warning to non-Muslims. But you need to hear that there is another warning to be considered. These are the words of one you claim to honor:
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)
    Last edited by Grace Seeker; 06-19-2007 at 06:45 AM.


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