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    A Message To The Non-Muslims. (OP)


    A Message To The Non-Muslims After which they are not Excused by Ignorance


    Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem

    Dear Reader,

    The purpose of this message is to invite you to think of and contemplate about the real purpose of your life on this earth and where you will end up in the Hereafter. Will you end up in Paradise or in Hell-Fire? Please, take note, that when you have read this message, you are considered to have legislatively been given proof and been informed of the admonition of all messengers, and after which you will not be excused by ignorance:

    Take note that Allah the Almighty is the One and Only God. He is Eternal. He is Absolute. He has not begotten and has not been begotten and no one is like Him.
    • Allah says: Say: He is Allah, the One; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him. Surah No.112, Verses 1-4.
    • Allah says: He is the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees. Surah No. 42, Verse No. 11.
    Learn that Allah the Almighty is the Creator of all creatures. There is no god for this universe and what it holds but Allah.
    • Allah says: Allah is the Creator Of all things, and He is the Guardian and Disposer of all affairs. Surah No.39 Verse 62.
    • Allah says: Such is Allah, your Lord, The Creator of all things, there is no god but He: Then how you are deluded away from the Truth! Surah No.40, Verse No.62.
    • Allah says: To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and earth: To Allah do all matters return. Surah No.3 Verse No. 109.
    Be informed that Allah the Almighty has created you for one single purpose which is to worship Him alone.
    • Allah says: I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me. Surah No.51 Verse No. 56.
    Allah says: And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to give zakat (i.e. charity given to the needy); and that is the Religion Right and Straight. Surah No.98, Verse No. 5.

    Understand that it is out of sincerity and purity of worship to Allah to avoid worshipping the created whoever and whatever they may be.
    • Allah says: Certainly they disbelieve who say: “(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, - Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. Surah No. 5, Verse No. 72.
    Allah says: Say: "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him any (false god).” Surah No 72, Verse No. 20.

    Allah says: Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your God is one God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner. Surah No. 18, Verse No. 110.

    Allah says: Those to whom We have given the Book rejoice at what hath been revealed unto thee: but there are among the clans those who reject a part thereof. Say: "I am commanded to worship Allah, and not to join partners with Him. Unto Him do I call, and unto Him is my return. Surah No. 13, Verse No. 36.

    Learn that he, who worships Allah joining with Him another whoever or whatever it may be, has associated partners with Allah and consequently his deeds will turn fruitless and he will be among the losers.
    • Allah says: But it has already been revealed to thee, - as it was to those before thee, - “if thou wert to join (gods with Allah), truly fruitless will be thy work (in life), and thou wilt surely be among the losers. Surah No. 29, Verse No. 65.

    Allah says: This is the Guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His servants if they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them. Surah No. 6, Verse No.88.

    Take note that Allah the Almighty sent all Prophets and Messengers to reinforce and remind people that there is no god but Allah. That is nothing is worthy of being worshipped but Allah.
    • Allah says: “For we assuredly sent amongst every people a Messenger, (with the command), “serve Allah, and eschew Evil”: of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). Surah No.16, Verse No. 36.

    Allah says: Not a messenger did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.” Surah 21 Verse 25. There is no prophet who said to his people but: We sent Noah to his people. He said: “O my people! Worship Allah! Ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the Punishment of a dreadful Day! Surah No. 7, Verse No. 59.

    Be informed that having faith and believing in all Prophets and Messengers is a must. If anyone rejects faith or doesn’t believe one Prophet or Messenger of Allah’s the Almighty, they are rejecting faith in Allah and disbelieving Him and all His Prophets and Messengers.
    • Allah says: “The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith, each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers. “We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of his Messengers.” And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 285.
    Allah says: “‘Verily it has been revealed to us that the Chastisement (awaits) those who reject and turn away. Surah No. 20, Verse No. 48.

    Allah says: And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?” Surah No.29, Verse No. 68.

    Allah says: Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which we sent Our messengers: but soon shall they know. Surah No. 40, Verse No. 70.

    Be informed that Muhammad bin Abudullah bin Abdullmutalib (Peace and Blessings of Allah Be Upon Him) (PBBUH ) is the Messenger of Allah, who was sent by Allah as mercy to the worlds, giving glad tidings and warnings and that he is the seal of all Prophets and messengers and there is no Prophet after him.
    • Allah says: “Muhammad is no more than a Messenger: many were the Messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 144.

    Allah says: “Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures),-in the Taurat and the Gospel; - for he commands them what is just and Forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure): He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him, - it is they who will prosper.” Surah No. 7, verse No. 157.


    Allah says: “Say: “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to who belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger. The unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words, follow him that (so) ye may be guided. Surah No. 7, Verse No. 158.


    Allah says: “Now hath come to you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that you should suffer, ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful”. Surah No. 9, Verse No. 128.

    Allah says: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets. And Allah has full knowledge of all things. Surah No. 33, Verse No. 40.

    Allah says: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah… Surah No 48, Verse No. 29.

    Allah says: And remember, Jesus, the Son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he came to them with Clear Signs, They said, “This is evident sorcery! Surah No.61, Verse No.6. Take note that Allah the Almighty revealed to Muhammad (PBBUH) the Holy Quran which is the word of Allah and which contains Guidance and Light for the worlds. It has alsoexplanation of everything.
    • Allah says: “Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down The Qur’an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong) so every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spent it in fasting, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you: He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. Surah No.2, Verse No.185.

    Allah says: Say: “What thing is most weighty in evidence?” say: “Allah is witness between me and you; this Qur’an hath been revealed to me by inspiration. That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?” say: “Nay! I cannot bear witness! Surah No. 6, Verse No. 19.

    Allah says: Verily this Quran doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the glad tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 9.

    Allah says: “We send down (stage by stage) of the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 82.

    Allah says: “As for thee, thou receives theQuran from One All-Wise, All-Knowing.Surah No. 27, Verse No. 6.

    Allah says: And We have explained to man, in this Quran, every kind of similitude: yet greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with gratitude! Surah No. 17, Verse No. 89.

    Appreciate that the Holy Quran, which was revealed to Allah’s Prophet (PBBUH), has been the Greatest Evident Miracle Ever. It is continuing and everlastingly challenging all mankind gathered together to produce something like it or like one of its Surahs.
    • Allah says: “Say: ‘if the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.’ Surah No. 17, Verse No. 88.

    Allah says: “And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witness or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if ye are truthful. Surah No. 2, Verse No. 23.

    Be informed that Allah has ordered all mankind no matter what their colours, sexes; languages may be to believe in Muhammad the Prophet (PBBUP), follow him and obey him. He who obeys the Prophet (PBBUH) obeys Allah and consequently he will be on the right path; and; he who disobeysthe Prophet (PBBUH), disobeys Allah and consequently he will be on the wrong path.
    • Allah says: “Say: “Obey Allah and His Messenger”: but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject faith. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 32.

    Allah says: O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). Surah No. 8, Verse No. 20.

    Allah says: He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah… Surah No. 4, Verse No. 80.

    Allah says: “Say: “if ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most merciful. Surah No. 3, Verse No. 31. Take note that he who hears of Muhammad the Prophet (PBBUH) and neither believes in him nor follows him is a disbeliever in Allah, rejecting faith in Him andconsequently worthy to be tortured on the Day of Judgement.
    • Allah says: “We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: It is not thee they reject: It is the Signs of Allah, which the wicked deny. Surah No. 6, Verse No. 33.

    Allah says: On that day those who reject Faith and disobey the Messenger will wish that the earth were made one with them: but never will they hide a single fact from Allah! Surah No. 4, Verse No. 42.

    Allah says: “If anyone contends with the Messenger even after Guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men to Faith, we shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- What an evil refuge! Surah No. 4, Verse No. 115.


    The Prophet (PBBUH) says: “By the One in whose hands Muhammad’s soul is, if anyone, anywhere in the world, whether a Jew or Christian hears of me and dies without believing in my Message will definitely be amongst those in Hell-Fire. (Muslim)

    Take note that the Religion before Allah is Islam and it is the religion of all Prophets and Messengers. No religion is accepted of anyone but Islam.
    • Allah says: And Abraham enjoined upon his sons and so did Jacob;” Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Me). Surah No. 2, Verse No.132.

    Allah says: “
    The Religion before Allah is Islam..Surah No. 3, Verse No. 19.


    Allah says: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost. Surah No. 3, Verse No.85.

    Be informed that resurrection after death is coming and absolutely true; the Hour is coming and absolutely true and theaccountability on doomsday is absolutely true.
    • Allah says: “Lost indeed are they who treat it as a falsehood that they must meet Allah, - until on a sudden the Hour is on them, and they say: “Ah! Woe unto us that we neglected; for they bear their burdens on their backs, and evil indeed are the burdens that they bear? Surah No. 6 Verse No. 31.

    Allah says: Verily the Hour is coming- I have almost kept it hidden- for every soul to receive its reward by the measure of its Endeavour.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 15.

    Allah says: And verily the Hour will come: there can be no doubt about it, or about (the fact) that Allah will raise up all who are in the graves. Surah No. 22, Verse No. 7.

    Allah says: The Unbelievers say, “Never to us will come the Hour”: say, “Nay! But most surely, by my Lord, it will come upon you;… Surah No 34, Verse No. 3.

    Allah says: The Hour will certainly come: therein is no doubt: yet most men believe not. Surah No. 40, Verse No. No. 59.

    Allah says: Again, on the Day of Judgement, will ye be raised up. Surah No. 23, Verse No. 16.

    Allah says: Allah is never unjust in the least degree: if there is any good (done), He doubleth it, and giveth from His Own self a great reward. Surah No. 4, Verse No. 40.

    Allah says: Then shall anyone who has done an atom’s weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom’s weight of evil, shall see it. Surah No. 99, Verses Nos. 7-8. Learn that Paradise and its bounties are absolutely true, therein everlasting goodness and bounties of which no ear has ever heard of, or an eye has ever seen or a mind has ever been able to imagine. All this has been prepared Allah’s righteous believers.
    • Allah says: The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised! - beneath it flow rivers; perpetual is the fruits therof and the shade therein: such is the End of the Righteous and the End of the Unbelievers is the Fire. Surah No. 13, Verse No. 35.

    Allah says: But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow, every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: “Why, this what we were fed with before,” for that are given things in similitude; and they have therein spouses purified; and they abide therein (forever).” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 25.

    Allah says: But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness- to them shall We give a Home in Heaven, - lofty mansions beneath which flow rivers, -to dwell therein for aye; an excellent reward for those who do (good)! Surah No. 29, Verse No. 58.

    Allah says: Verily the Companions of the Garden shall that Day have joy in all that they do. Surah No. 36, Verse No. 55.

    Allah says: (Here is) the description of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water unstaling; rivers of Milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Forgiveness from their Lord, (can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell fro ever in the Fire and be given to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? Surah No.47, Verse No. 15.

    Allah says: Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous. Surah No.3 Verse No 133.


    Allah says: “Be ye foremost (in seeking) forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of heaven and earth prepared for those who believe in Allah and His messengers: that is the Grace of Allah, which He bestows on whom He pleases: and Allah is the Lord of Grace abounding. Surah No. 57, Verse No. 21.

    Learn that the Hell fire is absolutely true; its torture in is true; and fierce. It has a torture that is extremely fierce, harsh, and perpetual. Its torture is something that no ear has ever heard of, or an eye has ever seen or a mind has ever been able to imagine. All this has been prepared for those who associate partners with Allah and who made it false to believe in Allah.
    • Allah says: “Know they not that for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger is the Fire of Hell? - Wherein they shall dwell. That is the supreme disgrace.Surah No.9, Verse No. 63.

    Allah says: …on the Day of Judgement we shall gather them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire. Surah No. 17, Verse No. 97.

    Allah says:And We shall drive the sinners to hell, (like thirsty cattle driven down to water) Surah No. 19, Verse No. 86.

    Allah says: “Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgement), -for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live. Surah No. 20, Verse No. 74.

    Allah says: But those who reject (Allah) - for them will be the Fire of Hell: not term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Chastisement be lightened for them. Thus do WE reward every ungrateful. Surah No. 35, Verse No. 36.

    Allah says: “The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in groups: until, when they arrive there, its gates will be opened. And its Keepers will say, “Did not messengers come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?” The answer will be: “True: but the Decree of Chastisement has been proved true against the Unbelievers! Surah No. 39, Verse No. 71.

    Take note that if you die believing in the oneness of God and in Muhammad (PBBUH), Allah’s last Messenger, you will be amongst those who will be saved and led into Paradise to live in its bounties for ever.
    • Allah says: “But such as come to Him as Believers who have worked righteous deeds, for them are ranks exalted.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 75.
    Whereas, if you die associating partners with Allah, disbelieving in Him and rejecting faith in Him, you will be among thosewhowill be in Hell Fire for ever and ever.
    • Allah says: “But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raisehim up blind on the Day of Judgement.SurahNo. 20, Verse 124.

    Allah says: “And who does more wrong than one to whom are recited the Signs of his Lord, and who then turns way therefrom? Verily from those who transgress We shall exact (due) retribution.” Surah No. 32, Verse no. 22.

    Allah says: “Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgement),-for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 74

    Allah says: “…and if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 217

    Be informed that there is no force in religion; the right path is clear and the wrong path is clear. So after you have read and thought of and contemplated about the above message, you will not be excused by ignorance. As the warnings and message of all messengers have now reached you, you will be brought to account and be accountable on the Day of Judgment when there is no benefit for money or children but only for those who will come with good deeds and clear hearts. Finally take note that the devils of mankind and Jinn’s and the wicked of the learned among them are scheming day and night to prevent you from listening to this message and to any other message that speaks of the Truth.

    We pray to Allah that He helps you find the right path and guide you to what pleases Him

    Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds


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  2. #141
    Muslim Woman's Avatar
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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

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    Salaam/ peace ;
    Quote Originally Posted by guyabano View Post
    All in all, you didn't answer any of my questions.
    i tried

    ok , Insha Allah ( God Willing ) will try again now


    I love science, and according to this, the world is already more than 4 billions of years old.

    what proof do u have ? How do u know in few years this info won't be changed ?


    People love to challange religion ,ask for proof ; but when so-called scientists (! ) or whoever they are say so & so like world is .....yrs old , dinosoaur ( yak , ignore spell ) became birds & flew in the sky , human came from ape/ lower animal etc , etc many people have no objection acception these. LOL


    you want to tell me, before God was no other God?


    yaaaaaaaaaaaaa , u got it

    that 's what i want to say


    Before & after God , there was no other god as God is only one.

    U may worship human & angel or sun or moon as god but it won't change the Truth that God is one & only.



    . The scientific one: There is NO God. His existence has never been prooven.
    LOL & Science has proof that there is no God....where is the proof ? who gave certificate that the proof is solid ? What's his/her authority to give that kind of ' fatwa ' ????





    I find it rather amusing, that people follow blindfolded stories out of books Bible/quaran which has been retranslated and rewritten 1000 times,
    Quran was never rewritten....show me proof .


    everytime with a different author, so guess, what is left from the initial book.
    there is no human author of Quran. Pl. show proof if u have any that human being wrote Quran.


    I just give you an example: In the Genesis Book is mentionned the forbidden fruit, right?
    But how you can explain, that suddenly, in the bible, they talk about an apple?
    i m sure , Jews & Christians have some answers.

    Listen, when so called muslim suicide bombers can go to paradise,
    God says in Quran ,if anybody kills an innocent person , it is as if s/he killed the whole mankind. So , how do u know those who are killing innocent persons will go to heaven?


    anyway, 'GOD' always forgive sinners,
    yap but if they repent sincerely. Don't wait for the last moment .....repentance won't be accepted when death approaches.

    [/quote]


    Last edited by Muslim Woman; 06-21-2007 at 08:37 AM.
    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

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  4. #142
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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    what proof do u have ? How do u know in few years this info won't be changed ?
    According to most websites I saw (and there are a lot), Scientists now came on one common answer +/- 1% accuracy: 4,55 billion years !

    One example: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

    As for the birds, you are right, they carry the same gens than paleantogues found on old bones from dinosaures. The birds are really the descendants of the dinosaures., and this has been prooven many times.

    I wish we could go back in time, then you go and explain to the egyptians and azetcs in South America, that their gods are fakes and only your God (still to come at that time) is the true one.
    I rather will not express you here what they would have done to you, accused for blasphemy !

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    LOL & Science has proof that there is no God....where is the proof ? who gave certificate that the proof is solid ? What's his/her authority to give that kind of ' fatwa ' ????
    well, that is the proof ! There is nothing, nada, nichts, rien ! There is nothing which could really justify the existence of God or one of his prophets.
    Curiously, people find a lot of artefacts of ancient civilistations, even older than 2000 years, but nothing was ever found about the exisitence of Jesus.

    Curious, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Quran was never rewritten....show me proof .

    there is no human author of Quran. Pl. show proof if u have any that human being wrote Quran.
    And again, this is the proof, you're looking for. It is just a book, coming out of the NOTHING. 2 Authors wrote these books Bible/Quaran and told then someday the people, to beleive in that was is written there, and the most important of all: DON'T ASK QUESTIONS, JUST DO IT

    Anyway, it is an endless topic. It is good to see, people believe in something/someone. Some see their gods in animals, other in ..ermm..Gods (humans?). Others say, God is in everything. You can worship a ball pen and pretend, God is inside.
    I also have my way of beliefs, so finally, all humans are not so different from each other.

    It just makes me feel sad, that most wars on this planet are caused because of religions and also, that people, who have tight bindings to their religion are all very narrow minded towards different thinking persons.
    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Im Always Right,Its Like,When Im Right,Im Right,And When Im Wrong,I Could've Been Right,So Im Still Right,'Cause I Could've Been Wrong!

  5. #143
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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by guyabano View Post
    According to most websites I saw (and there are a lot), Scientists now came on one common answer +/- 1% accuracy: 4,55 billion years !

    One example: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

    As for the birds, you are right, they carry the same gens than paleantogues found on old bones from dinosaures. The birds are really the descendants of the dinosaures., and this has been prooven many times.

    I wish we could go back in time, then you go and explain to the egyptians and azetcs in South America, that their gods are fakes and only your God (still to come at that time) is the true one.
    I rather will not express you here what they would have done to you, accused for blasphemy !


    Maybe you could show some fossils to prove your argument, please?



    well, that is the proof ! There is nothing, nada, nichts, rien ! There is nothing which could really justify the existence of God or one of his prophets.

    You might not accept the Creation argument, yet that's of the most powerful arguments. The idea of 'chance' and 'coincidence' isn't worth much at all.

    Also, the Cambrian explosion is something which causes alot of trouble to evolutionists, maybe you could clarify that? That's a huge sign that the creatures of Allaah were created and sent to the earth during different time periods.


    Curiously, people find a lot of artefacts of ancient civilistations, even older than 2000 years, but nothing was ever found about the exisitence of Jesus.

    Curious, isn't it?

    Let's turn aside from the issue of Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) for a little moment, we have solid evidences that God's final Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) existed - his lineage still continues on today. There are also many Islamic artifacts which have existed over 2000 years, including Masjid Al Aqsaa'. If i am able to find more info, inshaa Allaah (God willing) i will post them up.



    And again, this is the proof, you're looking for. It is just a book, coming out of the NOTHING. 2 Authors wrote these books Bible/Quaran and told then someday the people, to beleive in that was is written there, and the most important of all: DON'T ASK QUESTIONS, JUST DO IT



    First of all, no - the bible wasn't writ by one person. It was written by many different people.

    The Qur'an, it wasn't written by God's Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) since he was an illiterate man. His companions wrote it, and it is preserved for us till today. Allaah says:

    We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). [Qur'an 15: 9]
    And your statement that we don't ask questions?

    So ask the People of Knowledge if you do not know [Qur'an Surah 21:7]
    Anyway, it is an endless topic. It is good to see, people believe in something/someone. Some see their gods in animals, other in ..ermm..Gods (humans?). Others say, God is in everything. You can worship a ball pen and pretend, God is inside.

    God is outside of His creation, and He has Power over all things.



    I also have my way of beliefs, so finally, all humans are not so different from each other.

    It just makes me feel sad, that most wars on this planet are caused because of religions and also, that people, who have tight bindings to their religion are all very narrow minded towards different thinking persons.

    Most wars are not done in the name of religion, religion may be used to lure people in. However, the majority of the wars done within the world are done so for worldly/material gains.

    Islaam is also not a 'narrow minded' religion either, since the majority of the world advanced due to Islaam, it's teachings, and all the fields that Islaam advanced in which were a huge benefit for humanity.

    http://www.muslimheritage.com/




    Peace.

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    guyabano's Avatar
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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by guyabano View Post
    DON'T ASK QUESTIONS, JUST DO IT
    As I said, that is what religion is ! Be obedient, and don't ask questions!

    You can tell me whatever you want, but don't try to tell me, the earth was 4,5 billions of years an empty Planet, a piece of Rock, which just wait for Allah !
    This is simply ridiculous. All the creatures on earth are made of Carbon and need Water to survive. EVOLUTION is the word, which over millions of years shaped the creatures of this planet.
    For those who believe, all creatures on this planet have been made by God, somehow I envy them, because they live in a dreamland !
    Evolution and Life is far more complex than just pretending 'God created that'
    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Im Always Right,Its Like,When Im Right,Im Right,And When Im Wrong,I Could've Been Right,So Im Still Right,'Cause I Could've Been Wrong!

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by guyabano View Post
    As I said, that is what religion is ! Be obedient, and don't ask questions!

    What is society? If one was to claim that religion is oppression, and we obey and follow. Don't people do the exact same to the laws within their society? Don't they do something which might seem krazy to them to fit in? Therefore doing what society tells one to do is also a form of obedience and in some ways a slavery too.


    You can tell me whatever you want, but don't try to tell me, the earth was 4,5 billions of years an empty Planet, a piece of Rock, which just wait for Allah !

    Who said i disagreed with that? Maybe Allaah did create the earth 4.5 billion years ago? I really don't know, and it won't effect my faith no matter what the answer is. Since the simple answer, is Allaah did create it.


    This is simply ridiculous. All the creatures on earth are made of Carbon and need Water to survive. EVOLUTION is the word, which over millions of years shaped the creatures of this planet.
    Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

    [Qur'an 21: 30]
    For those who believe, all creatures on this planet have been made by God, somehow I envy them, because they live in a dreamland !
    Evolution and Life is far more complex than just pretending 'God created that'

    There are loads of missing gaps within the evolution theory.




    Peace.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    I'm muslim....so I ges dis dnt apply 2 me :zip:

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by - Qatada - View Post
    There are loads of missing gaps within the evolution theory.
    Oh, sure, I agree on that! But not so much than in religions !

    Peace !
    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Im Always Right,Its Like,When Im Right,Im Right,And When Im Wrong,I Could've Been Right,So Im Still Right,'Cause I Could've Been Wrong!

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by guyabano View Post
    Oh, sure, I agree on that! But not so much than in religions !

    Peace !

    The praise is for Allaah there are no gaps in Islaam, since He has perfected this religion for us.


    Allaah Almighty says:

    This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

    [Qur'an 5: 3]



    Peace.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by - Qatada - View Post
    The praise is for Allaah there are no gaps in Islaam, since He has perfected this religion for us.


    Allaah Almighty says:

    This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

    [Qur'an 5: 3]

    Peace.
    I'm so happy for you !

    and oh, besides: NOTHING in this world is perfect !

    Peace
    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Im Always Right,Its Like,When Im Right,Im Right,And When Im Wrong,I Could've Been Right,So Im Still Right,'Cause I Could've Been Wrong!

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by guyabano View Post
    I'm so happy for you !

    and oh, besides: NOTHING in this world is perfect !

    Peace

    Thankyou the Qur'an is however, since it is the word of Allaah.



    Peace.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by guyabano View Post
    I find it rather amusing, that people follow blindfolded stories out of books Bible/quaran which has been retranslated and rewritten 1000 times, everytime with a different author, so guess, what is left from the initial book.

    I just give you an example: In the Genesis Book is mentionned the forbidden fruit, right?
    But how you can explain, that suddenly, in the bible, they talk about an apple?
    Well it's easy to explain: Mostly everyone loves apples, they are sweet, juicy, round shape, that's why one of the authors/translators choose an apple. They are perfect for the temptation story!
    The Bible does not call it an apple. All that is said is "fruit." Who are you referring to when you say, "one of the authors/translators"?


    Quote Originally Posted by guyabano View Post
    About hell, yeah, hell just exist for believers.
    No, it exists for the devil and his angels and sinners who reject the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Like you, for example, at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by guyabano View Post
    Listen, when so called muslim suicide bombers can go to paradise, I will for sure go there, anyway, 'GOD' always forgive sinners, no?
    Not if you reject the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross as payment for your sins. No forgiveness for those sinners. They have to pay for all of their own sins for all eternity.

  16. #152
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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    [COLOR=Blue]Salaam/ peace ;

    well , from Muslims side , we can say the same to our dear Chrisitans bro & sisters
    Yeah, I know. You already have. And I didn't say it to get even, this isn't a contest, just to try to clarify that the endless repitition of the same points over and over again without any apparent desire to remember them is rather pointless. If we aren't going to change one another, the purpose of the conversation should be not to attempt to change each other, or get our point out there, but to seek understanding. Having answered the same questions repeatedly and saying that the way you claim we speak is not what we are saying only to have you state what our beliefs are but again state things that we don't believe leads me to wonder if anyone is listening on the other end.


    But I am having trouble telling whether that is the issue, or if you really don't understand and are still honestly seeking clarification. For instance, here, in the following quoted conversation, it is obvious that you just didn't understand what I was saying.
    Well bro , I did not start it ….u wrote this & I just replied . Here is ur comment :

    originally posted by Grace Seeker:
    it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.
    Now there was nothing malicious in my comment, nor in your reply. I was just saying that what I saw was blind belief. You wondered why I can say that about you and you can't say that about me. I said, you can say that if that is the way you see it. Though personally, I consider my faith to be not just blind belief but reasoned belief. Now, I didn't add, but I could have, that I would expect that you probably see yours not as blind belief, but reasoned belief also.

    So, to clarify:
    I see Islam as blind belief and Christianity as more of a reasoned faith.
    I expect that you see Islam as more of a reasoned faith and Christianity as blind belief.

    Can you say so? Sure. Why not?
    No one is saying that you can't say it. That is how you see it. The other way is how I see it. We each think our own faith is true and reasoned, and that the other is something less than that. Nothing incredible about that. And as far as I can tell we are each free to state those opinions all we want. I'm only questioing the wisdom in continuing to, IMHO, waste each other's time saying the same thing over and over and over and over....and over again. I'm and trying to be respectful and continuing to answer your questions. But after having answered the same question not just once or twice, but even more times, I don't know if it is worth it.

    If you are truly asking questions for information then I will continue. If you are just trolling, well, you will keep getting the same response from me, perhaps in different words as I'm hoping that if you are really seeking information that one of these times it will make sense. But if you are just hoping that I am going to wake up and agree with Islam, that isn't going to happen. I'm not trying to convert you to Christianity or convince you (or anyone else) of our rightness by my answers. I am merely trying to help you see what it is that we actually believe, when it appears that you have some misunderstanding of those beliefs.

    If you think I am rude in expressing myself so freely, I apologize. That is not my intent. But I admit to being frustrated that this conversation does not seem to have progressed any. It does not seem that you understand or know any more about Christianity and its beliefs now than you did before. If all you are ever going to know about Christianity is what you are taught about it in the Qur'an or the Hadiths, there is no point in reading the Bible or asking a Christian to explain anything. So, what is the purpose of this conversation and these questions? Can you clarify that for me?

    I am seriously asking. I want to know what it is that you are hoping to accomplish by your line of questioning? I'll gladly continue, if you have a real need. But, tell me, please, what that need is, if you actually have one.


    originally posted by Muslim Woman---well , I guess , Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p) .

    originailly posted by Grace Seeker: Indeed the Jews on this board would agree with you in making that statement.

    Is it ok for u to make negative comment about Muhammed (p) but Jews must not do the same about Jesus (p) ?

    OR as they are the chosen people , they are allowed to say anything about Mother Mary (ra ) & Jesus (p) but Muslims can’t express their opinion even if they do it with respect ?



    Why is that Christians are so sensitive about Muslims opinion that is expressed with full respect to Jesus (p) but they don’t react much ( at least as same they do with Muslims ) when it’s the question of Jews opinion ???
    If you think that not agreeing with you that Muhammad (pbuh) is who you understanding him to be as a servant of God is speaking negatively, but you think that I should understand you as speaking positively about Jesus when you put him on a level with Muhammad (pbuh), then you just don't get Christianity. Not at all.

    First, notice that I personally make an effort to say "peace be upon him" every time I mention Muhammad's (pbuh) name. Would I do that if I was not trying to be respectful? (It's a rhetorical question, the answer to which is "No.")

    But to compare Jesus with any other person is to miss who we understand Jesus to be. There is none like him. So, if you compare Jesus with Muhammad (pbuh), and say all of the wonderful things about Jesus that you say about Muhammad (pbuh), I consider that as actually an insult to Jesus. Imagine that I was to speak of Muhammad (pbuh) as an ordinary human being, would you find that insulting of your great prophet? I find that many Muslims would feel that way. And yet, Islam itself admits that Muhammad (pbuh) is indeed just a human being like every other human being. Christianity makes a wholly different claim for Jesus. Now I know you don't believe those claims which we make. Fine, don't. But don't got telling me that you don't understand why we don't think you are not saying wondeful things about Jesus when you call him nothing more than a prophet. By comparison, it is even worse than saying that Muhammad (pbuh) is nothing more than a man. So, say that Jesus is nothing more than a prophet or nothing more than a man all you want. I'll understand where you are coming form and not take offense. But say that he was a wondeful human being and that you really honor him, and that we should be happy that you honor him is just nonsense to Christians. Should you be happy to hear that I think that Mohammad (pbuh) was a human being, a good man who shared his own faith with his people, but not always make it know in saying those things that I think Muhammad was nothing more than that and not a true prophet of God? I say nothing false about Muhammad and but stop short of saying all that you would say, and you refer to this as speaking negatively about Muhammad (pbuh).

    As to the Jews, they do not claim that they are honoring Jesus. So, when they say that think of him as nothing more than a man, they are not dishonoring him. They are just stating their beliefs. So, state your beliefs, but don't ask us to pat you on the back for honoring Jesus when we don't see it as coming even close to the type of honor that he deserves.



    --how do u know it’s not devil but the holy Spirit ?
    the same way that anyone knows that it is God and not the devil speaking to them. God himself gives us a spirit of discernment. We also have the testimony of scripture to compare it to in order to see if it is in harmony with what God has already taught us.
    Last edited by Grace Seeker; 06-22-2007 at 01:40 AM.

  17. #153
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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by alapiana1 View Post
    OK, and then you woke up.:coolalien
    Come on, my brothers. This is just as rude as when a Muslim slams a Christian.

    "And then you woke up." does not sound like the type of conversation intended to edify, build up, or produce a positive change in another. It is just a put down. I would hope that we Chrisians, who are here on an Islamic forum as invited guests, would argue our faith vigorously, but not resort to what is basically ad hominem type of arguments. They do not carry any of the conversation forward, they just serve to antagonize.

    If this reflects the nature of a kinship that already exists between the poster and its intended recipient, then it might be more appropriate, assuming that the recipient is open to such jesting. But even then may I recommend such conversation be conducted off the public forum as few others are likely aware of those types of ongoing relationships between individual members of the forum. In that light, what may have been intended as a harmless jest between two individual posters could be perceived by others as a comment against a whole group.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.



    Quote Originally Posted by - Qatada - View Post


    The Qur'an, it wasn't written by God's Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) since he was an illiterate man. His companions wrote it

    this line may confused non-Muslims ...so , a little explanation. Prophet Muhammed (p) dictated what he heard from angel Gabriel (p). Not a single word of his own was added in Quran.

    God warned in Quran that if Muhammed (p) tried to add/ change anything ,
    his .......( i forgot the exact words ) hand or throat would have been cutted ....something like that.


    So , no human being is/ was the author of Quran.

    Quran does not ask to belief blindly.

    Non-Muslims bro & sis , if u read Quran , u will find that God is asking to think , ponder , chanllenging u to find faults , if u don't believe Quran is from God , then take help of all human & Jinn & write a simialar one .
    A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com

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  20. #155
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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post





    this line may confused non-Muslims ...so , a little explanation. Prophet Muhammed (p) dictated what he heard from angel Gabriel (p). Not a single word of his own was added in Quran.

    God warned in Quran that if Muhammed (p) tried to add/ change anything ,
    his .......( i forgot the exact words ) hand or throat would have been cutted ....something like that.


    So , no human being is/ was the author of Quran.

    Quran does not ask to belief blindly.

    Non-Muslims bro & sis , if u read Quran , u will find that God is asking to think , ponder , chanllenging u to find faults , if u don't believe Quran is from God , then take help of all human & Jinn & write a simialar one .
    The book itself asks one to think, ponder, etc.
    What non-Muslims question is the belief that the Qur'an is actually God's words. You accept that it was Allah who spoke to Muhammad (pbuh) because the Qur'an says that it was Allah who spoke to Muhammad, and you know that this is true, because it is in the Qur'an which, as we already know, is Allah's revelation to Muhammadm that says that it was Allah's message for Muhammad (pbuh).

    Believe any one of those points and the rest follow very logically. But it seems to some of us outside of Islam that you have to jump in blindly to believe whatever point that you choose to first believe.

    Mind you, this is not to say that we won't have some of the same circular forms of reasoning outside of Islam. But that is why at least some of us see it as blind faith. Blind faith that Muhammad (pbuh) spoke the truth that he received what he recited in the form of revelations and not out of his head or some other sources. Blind faith that he reported the revelations he claimed he received accurately. There is no one who is able to validate the accuracy of his recitation, except of course for the annual visit by Jibreel, who discussed this only with Muhammad. So, we have to take Muhammad's word on blind faith that indeed this validation occurred. Blind faith that the one who gave Muhammad his message was an angel of God and not some other messenger.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Grace Seeker, remember when we discussed the trinity? And i gave you logic that Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) is the servant and Messenger of God? What was your response?

    Your response was that you could only use your texts to prove your claim for what you claimed. Using logic, the idea of man being God isn't really valid at all. Nor was the life of Jesus son of Mary godly either. Since he was born, was in a womb, grew up, drank, ate, he honored his mother, he called people to the worship of the Creator and Sustainer Alone etc.


    If you're wondering why God's final Messenger is Muhammad (peace be upon him) - then if you're in doubt, refer to the scripture and see why it is the truth. Anyone can claim to get a message from God, but what exactly is the message? If he just claimed it, why does he have billions of followers who strive to follow his exact same footsteps?
    Last edited by - Qatada -; 06-22-2007 at 11:41 AM.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    So, no human being is/was the author of Quran.
    Let me see if I understand. The angel Gabriel told things to Muhammad and at some later time, after Gabriel left, Muhammad's companions wrote down what he said Gabriel told him? Well, you still have human authors. You can't get away from human authors unless God Himself writes it all with His finger, as He did with the tablets of the Ten Commandments (Ex. 31:18; Deut. 9:10). I don't see any difference between an angel telling someone what to write and the Holy Spirit telling someone what to write. In fact, the latter would be MORE trustworthy. So the Bible should be MORE trustworthy, assuming the writers were lead and inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what they wrote, which is exactly what Christians believe (2 Tim. 3:16).

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Quran does not ask to belief blindly.
    I would agree with Grace Seeker that Christianity is a reasoned faith whereas Islam is more of a blind faith. For example, how do we know Gabriel said anything to Muhammad? There is no evidence available on which faith in that event may be considered reasonable. Whatever happened to the original writings? It seems to me the story is closer to Joseph Smith's concoction of the Book of Mormon and the "gold plates" that no one ever saw but him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman View Post
    Non-Muslims bro & sis, if u read Quran, u will find that God is asking to think, ponder, chanllenging u to find faults, if u don't believe Quran is from God, then take help of all human & Jinn & write a similar one.
    Write a similar one? That would not be that difficult. It would take some time but there are authors today who write 500-page books without a problem. I showed you one verse that I came up with that was very easy to produce, from my "New Revised King Phil Version," and I didn't even need a single Jinn to help me do it.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Let me see if I understand. The angel Gabriel told things to Muhammad and at some later time, after Gabriel left, Muhammad's companions wrote down what he said Gabriel told him? Well, you still have human authors. You can't get away from human authors unless God Himself writes it all with His finger, as He did with the tablets of the Ten Commandments (Ex. 31:18; Deut. 9:10). I don't see any difference between an angel telling someone what to write and the Holy Spirit telling someone what to write. In fact, the latter would be MORE trustworthy. So the Bible should be MORE trustworthy, assuming the writers were lead and inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what they wrote, which is exactly what Christians believe (2 Tim. 3:16).
    what a silly post.
    what has writing it down got to do with authorship????
    do u know what is meant by human authors? it means that some part of Qur'an is written (made) by humans which is totally untrue. Exactly what Bible is (written by Paul, Matthew....., these people are human authors of Bible) You point is so silly, that I can't understand u sometimes. and in Islam, Gabriel a.s is the holy spirit.

    I would agree with Grace Seeker that Christianity is a reasoned faith whereas Islam is more of a blind faith.
    yep, an Opel Corsa is better then a Ferrari. Is it you or us that accept a concept which can't understand and can't be explained??? who is it???


    For example, how do we know Gabriel said anything to Muhammad? There is no evidence available on which faith in that event may be considered reasonable.
    It seems you have long-time-memory problems. I have explained in other threads (i think on Trinity.......) where I explained , that even the sahabas witnessed the revelation coming to Muhammad from things that were happening. You points are baseless, and you are making them just based on your opinion without any evidence.

    Whatever happened to the original writings? It seems to me the story is closer to Joseph Smith's concoction of the Book of Mormon and the "gold plates" that no one ever saw but him.
    Please read about how the Qur'an was preserved before you make such comments.

    Write a similar one? That would not be that difficult. It would take some time but there are authors today who write 500-page books without a problem. I showed you one verse that I came up with that was very easy to produce, from my "New Revised King Phil Version," and I didn't even need a single Jinn to help me do it
    hahhahahahahaha ,what a silly person that you are Phil.

    my dear, Qur'an is not Bible, for people to play with translations and taking translations as main ones. Do you have a clue how high is the grammar of Qur'an??? you think with English language u challanged Qur'an?? you haven't even challanged Qur'an, you have challenged a translation of Qur'an.


    just please read this post, bc you make such silly comment. I thought that "phil king transl" was just a joke, but I can't believe my eyes that you actually took it as true, and is considering it as a challenge to Qur'an.
    hahahahaha

    The list of records on making the most silly post on board:
    3rd place : alapiana
    2nd place : Phil
    1st place: Aron85

    btw, here is the artcile, please, I really am saying, please read it, before you make any more silly post

    What Is The Challenge Of The Qur'an With Respect To Arabic Prose & Poetry?
    M S M Saifullah, cAbd ar-Rahman Robert Squires & Muhammad Ghoniem
    © Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.
    Last Modified: 9th September 1999

    Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:
    The Qur'an in many places challenges the people to produce a surah like it. It appears that the Christian missionaries who call the challenge irrelevent or an utterly subjective criterion are pretty much unaware of how the Arabic poetry and prose compares with the Qur'an. This article is devoted to deal with one aspect of the Qur'anic challenge of produce a surah like it. What is meant by surah like it with respect to the Arabic prose and poetry?
    The verses of the Qur'an dealing with the challenge are given below (Hilali and Muhsin Khan's Translation):
    Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]
    And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]
    And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).
    Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]
    Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]
    Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]
    cAbdur Rahim Green mentions that:
    These are the sixteen al-Bihar (literally "The Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Now I think at least the Christian's "Holy spirit" that makes you talk in tongues, part of your "Tri-Unity" of God should be able to inspire one of you with that!
    To begin with; the Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the 'rhyme'. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning 'The Seas'. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar viz; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. Each one rhymes differently. For metres of Arabic poetry please see please see Lyall's book Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic.[1]He discusses al-Kamil, al-Wafir, al-Hajaz, at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Khafif and al-Madid briefly.[2]
    The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called "rhymed prose" or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses.[3] One of the most famous speeches involving sajc is that of Hajjaj bin Yusuf in his first deputation in Iraq in post-Islamic and Quss bin Sa'idah in pre-Islamic times.
    So, the challenge, as cAbdur Rahim Green mentions, is to produce in Arabic , three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Indeed
    The Qur'an is not verse, but it is rhythmic. The rhythm of some verses resemble the regularity of sajc, and both are rhymed, while some verses have a similarity to Rajaz in its vigour and rapidity. But it was recognized by Quraysh critics to belong to neither one nor the other category.[4]
    It is interesting to know that all the pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry collected by Louis Cheikho falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar.[5] Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeated accuse Prophet Muhammad(P) for being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur'an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur'an's form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur'an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it as Alqama bin cAbd al-Manaf confirmed when he addressed their leaders, the Quraysh:
    Oh Quraish, a new calamity has befallen you. Mohammed was a young man the most liked among you, most truthful in speech, and most trustworthy, until, when you saw gray hairs on his temple, and he brought you his message, you said that he was a sorcerer, but he is not, for we seen such people and their spitting and their knots; you said, a diviner, but we have seen such people and their behavior, and we have heard their rhymes; you said a soothsayer, but he is not a soothsayer, for we have heard their rhymes; and you said a poet, but he is not a poet, for we have heard all kinds of poetry; you said he was possessed, but he is not for we have seen the possessed, and he shows no signs of their gasping and whispering and delirium. Oh men of Quraish, look to your affairs, for by Allah a serious thing has befallen you.
    It is a well known fact that the Qur'an was revealed in seven ahruf (or seven forms) to facilitate greater understanding of it among the Arabs who had different dialects. This was also to challenge them on their own grounds to produce a surah like that of the Qur'an. The challenge became more obvious when none of the seven major tribes could imitate it even in their own dialects as no one could claim that it was difficult to imitate due to it not being in their own dialect.[6]
    What Do The Orientalists Say About The Inimitability Of The Qur'an?
    E H Palmer, as early as 1880, recognized the unique style of the Qur'an. But he seem to have been wavering between two thoughts. He writes in the Introduction to his translation of the Qur'an:
    That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur'an itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect. Again, with them this style is not spontaneous as with Muhammad and his contemporaries, but is as artificial as though Englishmen should still continue to follow Chaucer as their model, in spite of the changes which their language has undergone. With the Prophet, the style was natural, and the words were those in every-day ordinary life, while with the later Arabic authors the style is imitative and the ancient words are introduced as a literary embellishment. The natural consequence is that their attempts look laboured and unreal by the side of his impromptu and forcible eloquence.[7]
    The famous Arabist from University of Oxford, Hamilton Gibb was open upon about the style of the Qur'an. In his words:
    ...the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evident miracle.[8]
    And in some other place, talking about the Prophet(P) and the Qur'an, he states:
    Though, to be sure, the question of the literary merit is one not to be judged on a priori grounds but in relation to the genius of Arabic language; and no man in fifteen hundred years has ever played on that deep-toned instrument with such power, such boldness, and such range of emotional effect as Mohammad did.[9]
    As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, having neither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom. Muslims of all ages are united in proclaiming the inimitability not only of its contents but also of its style..... and in forcing the High Arabic idiom into the expression of new ranges of thought the Koran develops a bold and strikingly effective rhetorical prose in which all the resources of syntactical modulation are exploited with great freedom and originality.[10]
    On the influence of the Qur'an on Arabic literature Gibb says:
    The influence of the Koran on the development of Arabic Literature has been incalculable, and exerted in many directions. Its ideas, its language, its rhymes pervade all subsequent literary works in greater or lesser measure. Its specific linguistic features were not emulated, either in the chancery prose of the next century or in the later prose writings, but it was at least partly due to the flexibility imparted by the Koran to the High Arabic idiom that the former could be so rapidly developed and adjusted to the new needs of the imperial government and an expanding society.[11]
    As the Qur'an itself says:
    And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (Qur'an 2:23-24)
    Lastly, the beautiful style of the Qur'an is admired even by the Arab Christians:
    The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it.[12]
    The above sentences speak of themselves. Summing up: Within the Arabic literature, either poetry or prose, there is nothing comparable to the Qur'an. Muslims throughout the centuries are united upon the its inimitability.
    There is also a talk by Christian missionaries that there are grammatical 'errors' in the Qur'an. In retort, it can be mentioned that the Arab contemporaries of Muhammad(P) were most erudite and proficient in the idiosyncrasies of Arabic speech; and hence, if they had found any grammatical 'errors' in the Qur'an, they would have revealed it when Muhammad(P) challenged them with to do so. Therefore, since they did not take up his challenge on this issue, we can be rest assured that no such grammatical 'errors' exist in the Qur'an.
    Indeed the grammatical errors claimed by Christian missionaries have been already discussed and refuted in a reputed journal.[13] It turns out that lack of knowledge of intricate constructions in classical Arabic by Christian missionaries gave rise to so-called grammatical 'errors'.
    I'jaz al-Qur'an (Or Inimitability Of The Qur'an) & Its Exposition
    I'jaz literally means "the rendering incapable, powerless". It is the concept relating to the miraculous nature of the Qur'an. What consitutes this miracle is a subject that has engaged Muslims scholars for centuries. By the early part of the third century AH (ninth century CE), the word i'jaz had come to mean that quality of the Qur'an that rendered people incapable of imitating the book or any part; in content and form. By the latter part of that century, the word had become the technical term, and the numerous definitions applied to it after the tenth century have shown little divergence from the key concepts of the inimitability of the Qur'an and the inability of human beings to match it even challenged (tahiddi).[14]
    Thus, the Islamic doctrine of i'jaz al-Qur'an consists in the belief that the Qur'an is a miracle (mu'jizah) bestowed on Muhammad(P). Both terms, i'jaz and mu'jizah come from the same verbal root. While mu'jizah is the active principle of a'jaza, i'jaz is its verbal noun.[15]
    The early theological discussions on i'jaz introduced the hypothesis of sarfah ("turning away") and argued that the miracle consisted of God's turning the competent away from taking up the challenge of imitating the Qur'an. The implication of sarfah is that the Qur'an otherwise could be imitated. However, cAbd al-Jabbar (d. 1025 CE), the Mu'tazilite theologian rejected sarfah because of its obvious weaknesses.
    cAbd al-Jabbar rejects the doctrine of sarfah for two main reasons. Firstly, because it contradicts the verse of the Qur'an stating that neither jinn nor human can rival the Qur'an, and secondly because it makes a miracle of something other than the Qur'an, i.e., the sarfah, the prohibition from production, and not the Qur'an itself. In addition to this, according to 'Abd al-Jabbar, the doctrine of sarfah displays four major weaknesses:
      1. It ignores the well-known fact that the Arabs of Muhammad's time had acknowledged the superior quality of speech of the Qur'an;
      2. It is in direct conflict with the meaning of the verses of the Challenge;
      3. It implies that the Qur'an is not a miracle; and
      4. It asserts that the Arabs were out of their minds (khuruj 'an al-'aql).
    This doctrine, in fact, implies that they could have produced a rival to the Qur'an, but simply decided against doing so. It effectively calls into question either their motives or their sanity. Therefore, according to cAbd al-Jabbar the correct interpretation of sarfah is that the motives to rival the Qur'an disappeared (insarafah) because of the recognition of the impossibility of doing so.[16]
    cAbd al-Jabbar insisted on the unmatchable quality of the Qur'an's extra-ordinary eloquence and unique stylist perfection. In his work al-Mughni (The Sufficient Book), he argued that eloquence (fasahah) resulted from the excellence of both meaning and wording, and he explained that there were degrees of excellence depending on the manner in which words were chosen and arranged in any literary text, the Qur'an being the highest type.[17]
    al-Baqillani (d. 1013 CE), in his systematic and comprehensive study entitled I'jaz al-Qur'an upheld the rhetorically unsurpassable style of the Qur'an, but he did not consider this to be a necessary argument in the favour of the Qur'an's uniqueness and emphasized instead the content of revelation.
    The choice and arrangement of words, referred to as nazm was the focus of discussion by al-Jahiz, al-Sijistani (d. 928 CE), al-Bakhi (d. 933 CE) and Ibn al-Ikhshid (d. 937 CE). al-Rummani and his contemporary al-Khattabi (d. 998 CE) discussed the psychological effect of nazm of the Qur'an in their al-Nukat fi I'jaz al-Qur'an and Bayan I'jaz al-Qur'an, respectively.
    The author who best elaborated and systematized the theory of nazm in his analysis of the i'jaz is cAbd al-Qahir al-Jurjani (d. 1078 CE) in his Dala'il al-I'jaz. His material was further organized by Fakhr ad-Din al-Razi (d. 1209) in his Nihayat al-I'jaz fi Dirayat al-I'jaz and put to practical purposes by al-Zamakhshari (d. 1144 CE) in his exegesis of the Qur'an entitled al-Kashasaf, rich in rhetorical analysis of the Qur'anic style.[18]
    Hardly anything new has been added by later authors.
    Is The Bible Inimitable?
    Anyone who has read the history of the Bible as a text as well as the constantly changing canon at the whims of the leaders of the Church and some 300,000+ variant readings in the New Testament itself would suggest that no book in history enjoyed such as reputation. The process of serious editing through which the Christian Bible went through is unparalleled in its almost 2000 year history. This would itself make the Bible an inimitable book.
    As far as the language of the Bible and its stylistic perfection is concerned, the Bible does not make any such claim. Therefore, it not does challenge the mankind of produce a few verses or a chapter like it. Further, it is a Christian claim that the Bible contains scribal and linguistic errors. The language in which the Greek New Testament was written is demotic Greek which itself has little or no regard for grammatical rules of classical Greek. Comparing the stylistic perfection of the Qur'an versus stylistic imperfection of the Bible, von Grunebaum states:
    In contrast to the stylistic perfection of the Kur'an with the stylistic imperfections of the older Scriptures the Muslim theologian found himself unknowingly and on purely postulative grounds in agreement with long line of Christian thinkers whose outlook on the Biblical text is best summed up in Nietzsche's brash dictum that the Holy Ghost wrote bad Greek.[19]
    Futher, he elaborates the position of Western theologians on the canonization process and composition of the Bible:
    The knowledge of the Western theologian that the Biblical books were redacted by different writers and that they were, in many cases, accessible to him only in (inspired) translation facilitated admission of formal imperfections in Scripture and there with lessened the compulsive insistence on its stylistic authority. Christian teaching, leaving the inspired writer, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, free in matters of style, has provided no motivation to seek an exact correlation between the revealed text on the one hand and grammar and rhetoric on the other. It thereby relieved the theologian and the critic from searching for a harmony between two stylistic worlds, which at best would yield an ahistoric concept of literary perfection and at worst would prevent anything resembling textual and substantive criticism of Revelation....
    In Christianity, besides, the apology for the "low" style of the Bible is merely a part of educational problem - what to do with secular erudition within Christianity; whereas in Islam, the central position of the Kur'an, as the focal point and justification of grammatical and literary studies, was theoretically at least, never contested within the believing community.[20]
    That pretty much sums up the Bible, its stylistic perfection (or the lack of it!) and the position of Western theologians.
    And Allah knows best!
    Relevent ArticlesIslamic Awareness Qur'an Miracle What Is The Challenge Of The Qur'an?

    References
    [1] C J Lyall, Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic, Williams & Norgate Ltd., London, 1930.
    [2] Ibid., pp. xlv-lii.
    [3] Ibn Khaldun, The Muqaddimah, Franz Rosenthal (Translator), Volume III, Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, 1958, p. 368.
    [4] A F L Beeston, T M Johnstone, R B Serjeant and G R Smith (Editors), Arabic Literature To The End Of The Ummayad Period, 1983, Cambridge University Press, p. 34.
    [5] Louis Cheikho, Shucara' 'al-Nasraniyah, 1890-1891, Beirut.
    [6] Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, Tafseer Soorah al-Hujuraat, 1988, Tawheed Publications, Riyadh (Saudi Arabia), p. 28.
    [7] E H Palmer (Tr.), The Qur'an, 1900, Part I, Oxford at Clarendon Press, p. lv.
    [8] H A R Gibb, Islam - A Historical Survey, 1980, Oxford University Press, p. 28.
    [9] Ibid., p. 25.
    [10]H A R Gibb, Arabic Literature - An Introduction, 1963, Oxford at Clarendon Press, p. 36.
    [11] Ibid., p. 37.
    [12] Alfred Guillaume, Islam, 1990 (Reprinted), Penguin Books, pp. 73-74.
    [13] M A S Abdel Haleem, Grammatical Shift For The Rhetorical Purposes: Iltifat & Related Features In The Qur'an, Bulletin of School of Oriental and African Studies, Volume LV, Part 3, 1992. (Now online)
    [14] Mircea Eliade (Editor in Chief), The Encyclopedia Of Religion, Volume 7, Macmillam Publishing Company, New York, p. 87, Under I'jaz by Issa J Boullata.
    [15] Yusuf Rahman, The Miraculous Nature Of Muslim Scripture: A Study Of 'Abd al-Jabbar's I'jaz al-Qur'an, Islamic Studies, Volume 35, Number 4, 1996, p. 409.
    [16] Ibid., pp. 415-416.
    [17] The Encyclopedia Of Religion, Op.Cit, p. 88.
    [18] Ibid.
    [19] B Lewis, V L Menage, Ch. Pellat & J Schacht (Editors), Encyclopedia Of Islam (New Edition), 1971, Volume III, E J Brill (Leiden) & Luzac & Co. (London), p. 1020 (Under I'djaz).
    [20] Ibid.


    Source
    Last edited by vpb; 06-23-2007 at 05:31 AM.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by - Qatada - View Post
    Using logic, the idea of man being God isn't really valid at all. Nor was the life of Jesus son of Mary godly either. Since he was born, was in a womb, grew up, drank, ate, he honored his mother, he called people to the worship of the Creator and Sustainer Alone etc.
    Not sure what you mean by "godly." We are all supposed to live "godly" lives and we do, or have done, all those things you mention---be born, be in a womb, grow up, drink, eat, honor parents, etc. The life of Jesus was indeed very godly, and we believe totally sinless.

    Quote Originally Posted by - Qatada - View Post
    If you're wondering why God's final Messenger is Muhammad (peace be upon him) - then if you're in doubt, refer to the scripture and see why it is the truth. Anyone can claim to get a message from God, but what exactly is the message? If he just claimed it, why does he have billions of followers who strive to follow his exact same footsteps?
    That is very true --- anyone can claim to get a message from God. But the test of whether it is from God is not the number of people who believe it. Jesus warned, "And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many" (Matt. 24:11). One way to test it is to look at previous revelation that we've already validated or believe to be from God and see if it contradicts it. For example, the head of the Mormon church is supposedly a living prophet. But I would judge what he says based on whether it conflicts with the Bible, just as I would judge the Book of Mormon based on whether it conflicts with the Bible. By the same token, I judge the Quran by whether it conflicts with the earlier revelation of the Bible. Obviously it does. So I am compelled to reject it, just as I reject the Book of Mormon.
    Last edited by Phil12123; 06-23-2007 at 05:27 AM.

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    Re: A Message To The Non-Muslims.

    That is very true --- anyone can claim to get a message from God. But the test of whether it is from God is not the number of people who believe it
    so Islam has passed this test, since it has 1.5 billion people and very soon it will exceed all other faiths inshaAllah. but still the number doesn't really prove anything.


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