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Jesus prophet or God

اَللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ اللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ اللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ - لَا إلَهَ إلَّا اللَّهُ وَاَللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ اَللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ وَلِلَّهِ الْحَمْد - اَللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ اللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ اللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ - لَا إلَهَ إلَّا اللَّهُ وَاَللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ اَللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ وَلِلَّهِ الْحَمْد - اَللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ اللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ اللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ - لَا إلَهَ إلَّا اللَّهُ وَاَللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ اَللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ وَلِلَّهِ الْحَمْد - اللَّهُ أَكْبَرُ كَبِيرًا وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ كَثِيرًا وَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ بُكْرَةً وَأَصِيلًا
20 Sunnah to do on 'Eid

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  1. #1
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    Jesus prophet or God (OP)


    There are many books that speak of the inerrancy of the Bible (Bibliography available upon request). The Bible also talks about Ishmael the father of the Arab race. God told Hagar to go back from running away from Abraham and Sarah. He said Ishmael was going to be very strong (Donkey of a man) with him against very man and very man against him. That is what I believe we see today - the Arab race against every man and every man against him. That is Biblical prophesy in action today. Jesus comes from the seed of Isaac and Ishmael comes for the seed of Ishmael Jehovah spoke in Isaiah 45:23 and said “I have sworn by myself, the word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear.” Colossians 2:9 States that in Christ dwells all of The Godhead fully. Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. In Jn. 13:19 Jesus declares himself “ I am” To the Jews he does it again by saying before Abraham was “I am” That is some pretty strong evidence according to the Bible that is inerrant by the hand of the Almighty that Jesus will tear down very imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickness in high places. This is all said according to Scripture and can be backed up as such.

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

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    Yes, He did!

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    elevating Jesus to G-D is a cardinal sin...
    No where in Islam does it say go bomb a building in the name of Allah... and the topic was covered quite extensively here... furthermore a great number of Americans according to Zogby polls believe it was your govt. that was directly involved in the Attacks --not so-called Muslims whose passports survived the fires that brought down two buildings demolition style to allude to their identity... anything else?
    Jesus prophet or God

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him


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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Luke warm Christians and Muslims alike they make me sick.
    don't patronize me with all the Psychiatric stuff. I am intense, because it is like seeing someone in a burning building. I want to shout and yell so they can see to flee the danger of not seeing that Jesus is more than a prophet. Why don't you ask Allah to show you who Jesus really was and is?
    in order for the Bible to be correct the Qu'ran would have to be false along with Isalm
    I don't understand G-D and other acronyms you use
    I have had a vision of Jesus and His relationship to Allah and me
    It is not my job to convert you. Only Allah can draw you to see who Jesus really is. All things were made by Jesus and for Him. It is important for you to know that what I share with you is spiritually discerned because Allah protects His word in the Bible and it is His will that I write you.
    "Muslims are more the spiritual descendants of the slave Hagar (and proud of it) than of Abraham," but I knew this and for the most part agree. "They reject the freedom that God gives through Jesus Christ because they are trapped by the pride of a slave.
    Old Testament that describes the split of the descendancy of Abraham into two groups, namely the free and the bound, or in other words the descendants of Isaac and the descendants of Ishmael, scripture is telling us that we are either the slaves of our own passions or we are free by being free from sin
    Muslims do not want to acknowledge the freedom that was given to Isaac, but more importantly the freedom given by Christ, the Redeemer of all nations..thus they remain bound to an ancient philosophy (even from before Mohammed) that does not allow them to think freely or act freely.. This is a big reason behind their lack of originality in the realm of science and elsewhere.' This is recoded in the Bible the family feud the world is caught into between Isaac and Ishmael. that is evidence of the Bible's validity.
    Ishmael the father of the Arab race. God told Hagar to go back from running away from Abraham and Sarah. He said Ishmael was going to be very strong (Donkey of a man)
    I want to study the Qu'ran so that I can understand the Muslim faith more. My purpose is not to be one because I don't like the fruit I see
    ........ if this rubbish does not qualify as personal attak against the person, Quraan, Islaam and the Prophets, then I don't know what an attack is, I am gobsmacked, dumbfounded.
    Last edited by NoName55; 03-30-2007 at 12:22 AM.

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Quote Originally Posted by alapiana1 View Post
    Yes, He did!
    Sorry I was hoping you might quote the bible and tell me what he said about being the son og God.

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    I am sure that I am quilty of lacking wisdom and tact in my approach of sharing I hope you can forgive me for that, but I am learning. I am a work in progress. The work thd Lord began in me He will finish it.

    Who being in the very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be gasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even the death of the cross. PHILLIPIANS 2:5-8

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Quote Originally Posted by alapiana1 View Post
    I am sure that I am quilty of lacking wisdom and tact in my approach of sharing I hope you can forgive me for that, but I am learning. I am a work in progress. The work thd Lord began in me He will finish it.

    Who being in the very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be gasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even the death of the cross. PHILLIPIANS 2:5-8
    Thank you Alapiana. This was written about Jesus(pbuh) not a quote by Him. Do you know or could you find out if Jesus (pbuh) himself ever stated that He was the son of God?

    And don't worry we are all a work in progress

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Greetings and peace be with you alapiana1;
    I really think that you and this forum should be more tolerable of non-Muslims.
    I have been here for two years and found deep respect from my Muslim brothers and sisters. As Christians we have to respect that this is an Islamic forum which is primarily intended to help Muslims with their faith, and the rules say as much. We are guests here and I feel that we should be aware of these facts when discussing our own Christian faith.

    In the spirit of fostering greater interfaith relations

    Eric

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    By the way, Many of those quotes weren't mine they were Fred's, and I mentioned that. And sure I'll be happy to provide those Scriptures for you that allude to Jesus being God and even Jesus Himself did:

    Who being in the very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be gasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even the death of the cross. PHILLIPIANS 2:5-8

    He announced Himself to the Jews as the I am of Exodus 3:14 in John 8:58 Jesus quotes "Before Abraham was "I am""

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God and the word became flesh.

    Read Isaiah 53 it gives the whole prophecy of how Jesus was to die and why

    Phillipians 2:11 every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord
    Jehovah claims He is the Alfal and Omega and that there is no other ALmighty, but Jesus makes the same claims of Himself in Rev: 1;7,8,17,18, 2:8;Mat.24:30; Isaiah 44:6
    There are so many more..........
    Even Thomas called Him God and Jesus didn't rebuke Him. People that worshipped him weren't rebuked for doing so. When people would try to do so to an angel they were topped from doing so by the angel. Even angels were commanded to worship Him....

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    Greetings and peace be with you alapiana1;


    I have been here for two years and found deep respect from my Muslim brothers and sisters. As Christians we have to respect that this is an Islamic forum which is primarily intended to help Muslims with their faith, and the rules say as much. We are guests here and I feel that we should be aware of these facts when discussing our own Christian faith.

    In the spirit of fostering greater interfaith relations

    Eric
    Thank you Eric.

    By any chance do you know the answer to my question, did Jesus(pbuh) ever state himself that he was the son of God? If he did where can I find it in the bible?

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Quote Originally Posted by alapiana1 View Post

    He announced Himself to the Jews as the I am of Exodus 3:14 in John 8:58 Jesus quotes "Before Abraham was "I am""

    ....
    I put Exodus 3:14 into my search engine and it came back with this - maybe not the best one to quote?

    The blessed word "EHEYEH" always means "I WILL BE" and NEVER means "I am" (Hebrew: aniy) as is further confirmed by The holy spirit of YeHVaH Elohiym in Exodus 3:12: "And He said 'Certainly I WILL BE (EHEYEH) with you...".

    EVERYONE of the Christ-ian translations CORRECTLY translate "eheyeh" as "I will be" in Exodus 3:12; but DELIERATELY change their translation of the very same word "EHEYEH" in Exodus 3:14 to instead read "I AM" (Exodus 3:14 KJV; NASB; NRSV: DARBY; DOUAY-RHEIMS; WEBSTERS:NIV: CORRUPTIONS).

    The diabolical DELIBERATE CORRUPTION of the blessed word "EHEYEH" in Exodus 3:14 by Pauline appointed Christian popes, 'pastors', and professors is shown by their CORRECTLY translating the very same word as "I WILL BE" in EVERY OTHER instance EXCEPT in Exodus 3:14:

    from quicksitemaker.com

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Yes, Samah12 Jesus did allude that he is the Son of God. Please give me time to find were it is. I have it memorized, but I want to give you the source. It is were He (Jesus) said, "Is it not written that ye are gods, then why do you stumble (or marvel) because I said, 'I am the Son of God?"'

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Yes, but the Jews wanted to stone Jesus after he said before Abraham was I am, they didn't stone people for saying I'll will be with you back than. The Jews understood the implications of what was being said. So do I.

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Quote Originally Posted by alapiana1 View Post
    Yes, Samah12 Jesus did allude that he is the Son of God. Please give me time to find were it is. I have it memorized, but I want to give you the source. It is were He (Jesus) said, "Is it not written that ye are gods, then why do you stumble (or marvel) because I said, 'I am the Son of God?"'
    Oh that's a wonderful one if you could find that I would be grateful.

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    1.2.3.2 How many "Sons" does God have?

    Many people tell us "but the Bible clearly says that Jesus is the Son of God. How can you say that Jesus is not God's only begotten son when Jesus says it so clearly in black and white in the Bible?" Well, first of all, as seen in the previous section (of this book), we first need to know the language of his people, the language of the Jews to whom he was speaking. Let us see how they understood this proclamation.

    Let us begin by asking: How many sons does the Bible tell us that God Almighty has?

    1. Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.
    2. Solomon is God's son "He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
    3. Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
    4. Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.
    5. Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12. "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7. "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6. "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4. "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2
    As we can see, the use of the term "son of God" when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus' people.

    Well then, was Jesus the only begotten son of God? Read Psalms 2:7
    "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.".

    Indeed, the Jews are even referred to as much more than this in the Bible, and this is indeed the very trait which Jesus (pbuh) held against them. When the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus (pbuh) he defended himself with the following words

    "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?' If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..."
    John 10:34:

    (he was referring to Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High..") As we can see from these and many other verses like them, "son of God" in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to describe a loyal servant of God. Whether the translators and editors chose to write it as "Son of God" (with a capital S) in reference to Jesus and "son of God" (with a small S) in reference to everyone else does not diminish the fact that in the original language, both cases are exactly the same. Are we beginning to see what drove the most learned men of the Anglican Church to recognize the truth? But let us move on.

    Grolier's encyclopedia, under the heading "Jesus Christ," says:

    "During his earthly life Jesus was addressed as rabbi and was regarded as a prophet. Some of his words, too, place him in the category of sage. A title of respect for a rabbi would be "my Lord." Already before Easter his followers, impressed by his authority, would mean something more than usual when they addressed him as "my Lord.".... it is unlikely that the title "Son of David" was ascribed to him or accepted by him during his earthly ministry. "Son of God," in former times a title of the Hebrew kings (Psalms 2:7), was first adopted in the post-Easter church as an equivalent of Messiah and had no metaphysical connotations (Romans 1:4). Jesus was conscious of a unique filial relationship with God, but it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 par.; John passim) goes back to Jesus himself" .

    There seems to be only two places in the Bible where Jesus (pbuh) refers to himself as "son of God." They are in John chapters 5 and 11. Hastings in "The dictionary of the Bible" says: "Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful." Regardless, we have already seen what is meant by this innocent title. However, Jesus is referred to as the "son of Man" (literally: "Human being") 81 times in the books of the Bible. In the Gospel of Barnabas, we are told that Jesus (pbuh) knew that mankind would make him a god after his departure and severely cautioned his followers from having anything to do with such people.

    Jesus was not the son of a human man (according to both the Bible and the Qur'an). However, we find him constantly saying "I am the son of man." Why?. It was because in the language of the Jews, that is how you say "I am a human being."

    What was he trying to tell us by constantly repeating and emphasizing to us throughout the New Testament "I am a human being," "I am a human being," "I am a human being"?. What had he foreseen? Think about it!.

    Do Christians emphasize this aspect of Jesus? The New Testament Greek word translated as "son" are "pias" and "paida" which mean "servant," or "son in the sense of servant." These are translated to "son" in reference to Jesus and "servant" in reference to all others in some translations of the Bible (see below). As we are beginning to see, one of the most fundamental reasons why Jesus (pbuh) is considered God is due to extensive mistranslation. We shall see more and more examples of this throughout this book.

    Islam teaches that Jesus (pbuh) was a human being, not a god. Jesus (pbuh) continually emphasized this to his followers throughout his mission. The Gospel of Barnabas also affirms this fact. Once again, Grolier's encyclopedia says:

    "...Most problematical of all is the title "Son of Man." This is the only title used repeatedly by Jesus as a self-designation, and there is no clear evidence that it was used as a title of majesty by the post-Easter church. Hence it is held by many to be authentic, since it passes the criterion of dissimilarity."

    Muslim-SA@acsu.buffalo.edu
    excerpted from
    What Did Jesus Really Say ?
    Last edited by NoName55; 04-01-2007 at 04:21 PM. Reason: typo+clarifications

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Can someone tell me why on this forum I get two different messages regarding my standing. My desk top CP lets me I could post new threads and converse on the forum, but my lap top says I may not???? WHY??

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Quote Originally Posted by samah12 View Post
    Oh that's a wonderful one if you could find that I would be grateful.
    "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?' If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..."
    John 10:34:

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    check your computer let it enable "cookies"-- if we can read your posts... you are obviousely still here......
    Jesus prophet or God

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him


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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Quote Originally Posted by alapiana1 View Post
    Can someone tell me why on this forum I get two different messages regarding my standing. My desk top CP lets me I could post new threads and converse on the forum, but my lap top says I may not???? WHY??
    Ask it

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    Re: Jesus prophet or God

    Please tell me why you keep repeating that verse see “And if they hear evil, vain, false talk...... I am not being false I am speaking all the truth I know in love even if I lack the tact and wisdom at times. These things are not blunders of the heart they are blunders of the mind. I feel like your using it to judge me. Only God can do that. Let God judge me please, don't you do it if that is the purpose of the verse.

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    A Son of Elohim




    (1) A Special Relationship
    "In Hebrew and Aramaic 'son of' is commonly used to mean 'member of the class of'; hence, 'the sons of god' is a regular way of saying 'the gods,' just as 'the sons of men' (commonly translated 'the children of men') is a regular way of saying 'men'."
    - Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 133
    Traditionally, the expression "sons of God" referred to the angelic host.
    "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them."
    - Job 1:6
    It also referred to God's special relationship with the Israelites - His chosen people.
    "And you shall say to Pharaoh: Thus says the Lord: 'Israel is My son, My firstborn'."
    - Exodus 4:22

    "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son."
    - Hosea 11:1

    "He [the Lord] said, 'Surely they [house of Israel] are my people, sons who will not be false to me'; and so he became their Savior."
    - Isaiah 63:9
    As the figure head representing of Israel, the king was decreed to be God's son.
    "I [David] will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, 'You are my Son [or son]; today I have become your Father [or have begotten you]'."
    - Psalms 2:7
    This royal birthright was passed on to Solomon and, by implication, to all future successors of the House of David.
    "Behold, a son shall be born to you [David],...his name shall be Solomon....He shall build a house for My Name; he shall be a son to Me, and I will be a Father to him, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel forever."
    - Psalms 2:7
    The Hebrew word behind "son" is "servant". This reflects the special status of kingship prevalent in the ancient world. (For example, the ancient Egyptians identified the living Pharoah with Horus, son of the God Osiris, and the deceased Pharoah with Osiris himself.)
    "Endow the king with your justice, O God, the royal son with your righteousness."
    - Psalms 72:1
    "The king of Israel was declared to be God's vice-regent on earth, precisely the role marked out for Jesus who is God's royal Messiah."
    - Graham N. Stanton, The Gospels and Jesus, The Oxford Bible Series (1989), paperback, p. 44



    (2) The Titular "Son of God"

    The Son of God (or Son of Elohim) was a messianic figure presaging a return of the rule of the House of David in certain apocryphal literature.
    "The most significant development since 1986 in this regard has been the discovery of the title 'Son of God' in one of the Qumran papyri (Dead Sea Scrolls) used in relation to a person other than Jesus.....this simply reinforces the argument made there that to be called the Son of God in a Jewish setting in the first century is not by any means the same as being identical with God Himself."
    - Tom Harpur, For Christ's Sake
    "[There will be violence and gr]eat [Evils.] Oppression will be upon the earth. [Peoples will make war.] and battles shall multiply among the nations, [until the King of the people of God arises. He will become] the King of Syria and [E]gypt. [All the peoples will serve him,] and he shall become [gre]at upon the earth. [...All w]ill make [peace,] and all will serve [him.] He will be called [son of the Gr]eat [God;] by His Name he shall be designated."
    "He shall be called the Son of God; they will call him son of the Most High. Like the shooting stars that you saw, thus will be their Kingdom. They will rule for a given period of year[s] upon the earth and crush everyone. People will crush people, and nation (will crush) nation, until the people of God arises and causes everyone to rest from the sword. His Kingdom will be an Eternal Kingdom, and he will be Righteous in all his Ways."
    - "The Son of God" (4Q246 Aramaic - attributed to the prophet Daniel)

    "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High."
    - Luke 1:32a
    "A. Fitzmyer clarified another important aspect of angelology by closely analyzing the terminology for 'son of God' at Qumran. In his opinion, 'son of God' terminology at Qumran has no messianic context. Rather, it is used as a title for angels, as it is throughout the Hebrew Bible. Furthermore, Qumran evidences the use of the term 'Lord' (mr') for YHWH, the Tetragrammaton. This suggests that the origin of the church's use of the term 'Lord' for 'Christ' is not to be found in the Hellenistic environment but in the original Hebrew 'church,' as it was a feature of Jewish sectarianism before Christianity.
    - Alan F. Segal, "The Risen Christ and the Angelic Mediator Figures in Light of Qumran" in Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls (James H. Charlesworth, Ed. - 1992), p. 304
    "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."
    - Luke 1:32-33
    Notice here that the author of Luke is echoing the promise extended to David in Psalms 2:7. This messianic Son of God can also be found in the Christian Greek addition to 4 Ezra, a 1st c. CE text.
    "I, Ezra, saw on Mount Zion a great multitude, which I could not number, and they all were praising the Lord with songs.
    In their midst was a young man of great stature, taller than any of the others, and on the head of each of them he placed a crown, but he was more exalted than they. And I was held spellbound.
    Then I asked an angel, 'Who are these, my lord?'
    He answered and said to me, 'These are they who have put off mortal clothing and have put on the immortal, and they have confessed the name of God; now they are being crowned, and receive palms.'
    Then I said to the angel, 'Who is that young man who places crowns on them and puts palms in their hands?'
    He answered and said to me, 'He is the Son of God, whom they confessed in the world.' So I began to praise those who had stood valiantly for the name of the Lord.
    Then the angel said to me, 'Go, tell my people how great and many are the wonders of the Lord God which you have seen.' "
    - 4 Ezra 2:42-48
    "When the Hillelite rabbis gained control of the Jewish community, they vociferously argued against the worship of any angel and specifically polemicized against the belief that a heavenly figure other than God can forgive sins (b.Sanh 38b), quoting Exodus 23:21 prominently among other scriptures to prove their point. The heresy itself they call believing that there are 'two powers in heaven.' By this term the rabbis largely (but not exclusively) referred to Christians who, as Paul says, do exactly what the rabbis warn against: they worship the second power."
    - Alan F. Segal, "The Risen Christ and the Angelic Mediator Figures in Light of Qumran" in Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls (James H. Charlesworth, Ed. - 1992), p. 317



    (3) The Son and Tenant Farmers
    "I will sing for the one I love a song about his vineyard: My loved one had a vineyard on a fertile hillside. He dug it up and cleared it of stones and planted it with the choicest vines. He built a watchtower in it and cut out a winepress as well. Then he looked for a crop of good grapes, but it yielded only bad fruit."
    - Isaiah 5:1-2
    "The parable of the wicked tenant farmers, despite signs of some editorial reworking by his followers, seems to derive ultimately from Jesus. He then may have referred to himself with the word 'son'; 'He (the 'man who planted a vineyard' = God') sent 'his son' to the tenant farmers 'saying, 'They will respect my son'."
    "The fruitful fields are owned by absentee landlords, which describes rural Palestine beginning with the heavy taxations by Herod the Great. It does not so representatively describe Palestine after its devastation by the Romans in 66-70 C.E. The ambiance is that of Palestinian Jews from the time of Herod the Great until 70, when they, like Job, felt unjustly persecuted, and not that of the post-Easter community, which claimed to be justified by Christ's death and resurrection.
    "The refusal of the tenant farmers to pay what is owed to the landlord makes adequate sense only in Jesus' time; the land rightfully belonged to the so-called tenant farmers, who believed that their religious and legal right had been unjustly robbed from them. Such history fits precisely both the parable and the Palestinian countryside after 38 B.C.E."
    - James H. Charlesworth, "Jesus as 'Son' and the Righteous Teacher as 'Gardener'" in Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls (1992), pp. 142, 153
    "He began to speak to them in parables. 'A man planted a vineyard, and set a fence around it, and dug a trough (for the wine press). Then he built a tower (to protect it); finally, he leased it to tenants, and went away. When the time came (for the harvest), he sent a servant to the tenants, to collect from them (his portion) of the fruits of the vineyard. But they took him, beat (him), and sent (him) away empty-handed. Again he sent to them another servant; him they wounded in the head, and treated shamefully. Then he sent another; him they killed; (he even sent) many others; some they beat and some they (even) killed. He had still one other (he could send): a beloved son (huion agapeton). He sent him to them last (of all, escchaton) saying, 'They will respect my ' But those tenants said to one another, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours' And seizing (him), they killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. What will the owner (ho kyrios) of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants, and give the vineyard to others.'"
    - Mark 12:1-9 (translated by James H. Charlesworth) (Matthew 21:33-39; Luke 20:9-15a; Thomas 65:1-7 colored pink)
    "...The reference to the 'son' is impressively undeveloped and ambiguous. This factor accords well with the use of 'son' in early Jewish theology, and especially with the words of some Galilean charismatics contemporaneous with Jesus, notably Honi (m.Ta'an 3:8), or the tradition that one of the Galilean charismatics, namely Hanina, was called 'my son' by God (b.Ber 17b)."
    "There is impressive evidence that it once circulated in an Aramaic oral form. Note the undeveloped sentences and the need to supply within parentheses the full meaning. The audience knew the historical setting; it was familiar to them from their daily lives. Note especially the need to supply objective pronouns within parentheses: 'him' must be added for meaningful English not fewer than three times. Recall the following sentence: 'But they took him, beat (him), and sent (him) away empty-handed.' Like English, Greek usually presents these objective pronouns, but Aramaic, Jesus' own language, frequently assumes them in oral and written language."
    - James H. Charlesworth, "Jesus as 'Son' and the Righteous Teacher as 'Gardener'" in Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls (1992), pp. 154, 155



    (4) God as Father
    "[...you will be] to Him like a firstborn son and He will feel for you as a man does for his only child..."
    - The Secret of the Way Things Are 4Q416 Frag. 2 2.13
    "Many early Jews tended to conceive of God as distant, visiting humanity only through intermediaries such as angels, as we know from studying the Pseudepigrapha and the Dead Sea Scrolls. Jesus perceived that God himself was very near, and that he was directly concerned about each person, even (perhaps especially) sinners."
    - James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism
    "...The Aramaic invocation Abba ('my own dear Father') occurs on the lips of Jesus only once in all four Gospels, yet many critics ascribe it on other grounds to the historical Jesus."
    - John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.
    "Abba, Father,' he said, 'everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.'"
    - Mark 14:36
    "...It is clear that Jesus chose one particular Aramaic noun to articulate his conception of God. Jesus refers to God by the word 'Abba', which is a determinative Aramaic noun, 'the Father'. It is employed frequently as a vocative form, meaning 'O Father', and, since the pronominal suffix is often omitted in colloquial speech, it also means 'my father'. Occasionally in Jerusalem I hear children call their fathers with the sounds 'Abba, Abba', which is, of course, Hebrew for 'Daddy'."
    "Jesus' unique use of 'abba' (Aram.) for God builds upon the Jewish custom to call God 'abinu ' (Heb.) , 'our father'. God is invoked as 'Our father' in a version of the second benediction before the Shema in the morning synagogal service, namely the Ahabah Rabbah. This prayer can be dated with some probability in form and content, but not exact wording, to pre-70 Palestinian Jewish liturgical settings."
    - James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism
    "Our Father (abinu), merciful Father, thou who are ever compassionate, have pity on us and inspire us to understand and discern, to perceive, learn and teach, to observe, do, and fulfill gladly all the teachings of thy Torah."
    - Ahabah Rabbah
    ".. For Jesus to address God so directly as 'Father' does not necessarily mean he claimed to be his divine son in the Christian sense. Rather it was a form of address often used by the Jewish holy man, the nabi, the hasid or indeed anyone who felt he could enter into a direct dialogue with God."
    - Ian Wilson, Jesus, The Evidence
    The first time Godd is addresses as Abba in rabinnical literature occurs in the Talmudic account of Honi, the Circle Drawer.
    "Thus he says to him, Father [Abba] take me to bathe in warm water [and he does], wash me in cold water [and he does], give me nuts, almonds, peaches, and pomegranates and he gives them unto him."
    - Babylonian Talmud, Taanith 23a
    "'Abba' as a way of addressing God was certainly used by the grandson of Honi the Circle Drawer."
    - Ian Wilson, Jesus, The Evidence
    "A. Hana ha-Hehba was the son of the daughter of Honi the Circle-Drawer. When the world was in need of rain, the Rabbis would send him school children and they would take hold of the hem of his garment and say to him, Father, Father [Abba, Abba], give us rain.
    B. Thereupon he would plead with the Holy One, Blessed be He, [thus], Master of the Universe, do it for the sake of these who are unable to distinguish between the Father [Abba] who gives rain and the father [abba] who does not."
    - Babylonian Talmud, Taanith 23b
    "That is also the second and final time that God is addressed as 'Abba' in rabbinical literature. Both cases are in the context of miracle workers and their imperious, childlike control of the divine power."
    - John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus, The Life of a Mediterranean Peasant (1991)



    (5) A Special Relationship
    "Blessed are You, O my God, who has opened to knowledge the mind of Your servant. Establish all of his works in righteousness; raise up the son of Your handmaiden - if it please You - to be among those chosen of humankind, to stand before You forever."
    - Charter of a Jewish Sectarian Association 11:16-17
    The Gospels not only used the expression "sons of God" (or "children of God" in some translations) in the familial sense but to any one who enjoyed a special relationship with God.
    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God."
    - Matthew 5:9
    "..the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."
    - Luke 3:38
    Paul and the Gospel of John say that those who believe in Christ would also become Sons [children] of God.
    "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
    - 2 Corinthians 6:17-18
    The meaning of "Son of God", denoting a special relationship with the Divinity, gave way to a new interpretation which resembled the doctrine of the mystery religions wherein any true believer could be reborn and filled with God (the Holy Spirit).
    "And to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fulness of God."
    - Ephesians 3:19
    "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- children born not of natural descent, [Greek 'of bloods'] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."
    - John 1:12-13
    (6) The "Son" Secret
    "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God."
    - Mark 1:1
    Mark "was written a little more than a decade after Paul's letter to the Romans [ca. 53-58 C.E.], and perhaps as long as five years after Paul's death....If Jesus was designated Son of God at the resurrection for Paul, the surely he was also the Son of God during his earthly life, even if no one recognized it."
    - John Shelby Spong, Liberating the Gospels, p. 223
    "The pagans (a minority in the Galilean population, but not absent and not to be forgotten) seem to have thought him a god or the son of a god, as did some of the people from whom he cast out demons."
    - Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 57
    "Who do you say I am?'
    Peter answered, 'You are the Christ.'
    Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him. He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again."
    - Mark 8:29-31 (Matthew 16:15-20; Luke 9:20-21
    "There is some Jewish evidence which suggests the expected Messiah would remain silent about his messiahship until he had completed his task and had been vindicated by God."
    - Graham N. Stanton, The Gospels and Jesus, The Oxford Bible Series (1989), paperback, p. 224
    "Numerous Jewish texts, like the Psalms of Solomon and 4 Ezra, indicate that only God can declare who is the Messiah. Any self-designation only proves that the proclaimer cannot be the Messiah. This insight certainly helps clarify the reticence (or refusal) of Jesus to accept Peter's confession according to Mark 8."
    - James H. Charlesworth, "Jesus as 'Son' and the Righteous Teacher as 'Gardener'" in Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls (1992), p. 142
    "According to Mark's theory of the 'messianic secret' (better: 'the Son secret'), no human being can know and proclaim in faith that Jesus is the Son of God before the ultimate act of mysterious revelation that is Jesus' death on the cross. Only then can a human being - pointedly, an outsider, a Gentile centurion involved in Jesus' execution - proclaim the truth: 'Truly this man was Son of God' (Mark 15:39). Before that, only God, speaking from heaven at Jesus' baptism and transfiguration, and the demons as they are exorcised - hence, only supernatural beings - can voice the truth of Jesus' divine sonship."
    - John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 2.
    "...The title 'Son of God'...in the synoptics almost always appears in miraculous contexts. The only exceptions are this passage (Mk. 14.61f. with its parallels) and Mk. 1.1 (the title of the gospel). On the other hand, 'Son of God' very rarely appears in messianic contexts. The likelihood is that the term came from a tradition in which it designated not a messiah, but a supernatural being, both worker and subject of miracles."
    - Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 51
    That the "Son of God" has supernatural connotations is also intimated in Hellenistic magical texts.
    "I am the Son."
    - Papyri graecae magicae IV.535
    "I am the Son of the living God."
    - The Demotic Magical Papyrus of London and Leiden XX.23
    "As 'Son of God' Jesus casts out demons (Mk. 3.11; 5.7p; Lk. 4.41), walks on the sea, and knows the Father (Mt. 11.27p.; 14.33). Because he claims to be 'son of God' the devil demands miracles from him (Mt. 4.36p.) and the Jews mock him when he is unable to perform them (Mt. 27.40, 43). Because he was 'a son of god' miracles attended his death (Mk. 15.38f.p.). by contrast, the gospels rarely attribute Jesus' miracles to 'his spirit' or to 'the holy spirit'..."
    - Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) pp. 132-133



    (7) Intimations of Divinity

    The syoptic gospels, in accord with Jewish tradition, make it clear that the man Jesus and God are not one and the same.
    "The recognition of sin, the need for forgiveness, and the perception that God alone can supply absolution is insightfully articulated in the Thanksgiving Hymns (cf. esp. 1QH 4). The author confesses that everyone is in iniquity from birth and remains in sin until death. Then comes the memorable acknowledgment that righteousness is not possible for humans and that 'all the works of righteousness' belong solely to God (1QH 4:31)."
    - James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism
    "And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, 'Good Teacher [Righteous Rabbi], what must I do to inherit eternal life?' And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.'"
    - Mark 10:17-18; (Matthew 19:16-17; Luke 18:18-19)
    "The claim that only God is good could have been made by any Judean or by any Greek influenced by Plato."
    - Robert W. Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, The Five Gospels
    According to Paul, Jesus did not achieve recognition as the messianic "Son of God", with all its implications of divinity, until after his death and resurrection.
    "And who through the Spirit [Or who as to his spirit] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God [or was appointed to be the Son of God with power] by his resurrection from the dead:Jesus Christ our Lord."
    - Romans 1:4
    &quot...For Paul it was the spirit of God that animated life and that was seen in the analogy of the wind (ruach) and thought to be similar to the breath (nephesh) that God breathed into Adam at the dawn of creation.)"
    - John Shelby Spong, Liberating the Gospels, p. 222
    Note also that the root of the Greek word for "spirit", pneumatikoV means "wind" or "breath".
    "Instead of referring to Jesus as 'the Christ', which would have been the correct translation of 'Messiah' into Greek, Paul adopted the fashion (he most likely initiated it) of calling Jesus 'Christ' as if this was a proper name, ignoring its political connotations, and also referred to him as theSon of God."
    - Ian Wilson, Jesus, The Evidence
    "At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God."
    - Acts 9:20
    The author(s) of John equated the Son of God with the throne of Israel, but also asserted the unity of Jesus and God while Jesus was still alive.
    "Then Nathanael declared, 'Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.'"
    - John 1:49
    The Jews [Sadducees] answered him, 'It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God.'
    Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your law, "I said, you are gods"? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, "You are blaspheming", because I said, "I am the Son of God"? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.'"
    - John 10:32-38
    "God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods:" "I said, 'You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler."
    - - Psalm 82:1, 6
    "In this psalm, God (Elohim) is subjugating the congregation of El the mighty, the 'children of the most high', the sons of El, and now they are going to die like men."
    - Chris King, "This Day the Scripture is Fulfilled in Your Ears"
    "The 'works' of Jesus and his unity with the Father are Johannine themes that have no basis in the aphorisms and parables of the historical Jesus."
    - Robert W. Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, The Five Gospels

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