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  1. #1
    Muezzin's Avatar
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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

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    I've never understood the debate about evolution. Whether or not my prehistoric ancestors evolved from a shared ancestor to apes does not affect my daily life in the least. So why do people get so fired up about it, on both sides of the fence?

    People are dumb.

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    جوري's Avatar
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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    ^^^ This is why--


    if that is what people believe they came from.. they can be my guest... I just don't want it imposed on me in any sort of debate, heated or not...
    Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    Text without context is pretext
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    Muezzin's Avatar
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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    Yeah, but why do people want to impose it? They act as if it's such an important scientific discovery when really, it has very little practical use whatsoever. It's trivia in the long run, when it comes to living our lives right here and now. It's meaningless conflict that will never be resolved because when it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter where we came from; what matters is where we're heading.

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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    It isn't a scientific discovery.. it is science fiction...
    Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him


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    Pygoscelis's Avatar
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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    Quote Originally Posted by Muezzin View Post
    I've never understood the debate about evolution. Whether or not my prehistoric ancestors evolved from a shared ancestor to apes does not affect my daily life in the least. So why do people get so fired up about it, on both sides of the fence?

    People are dumb.

    It is really only so heated because it is rejected so virulently. Most people who believe in evolution would readily give up that belief is something better with more evidence came along. The same is not likely for those who disbelieve. The two groups believe for different reasons. One is science. The other is faith.

    Some people of faith will accept it and point out that it need not necesarily clash with their creation stories (ie perhaps we evolved since adam and eve, etc). With others I think it may be an ego thing, thinking we couldn't possibly have evolved from the same ancestors as apes, because that threatens their self image and self importance.

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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    I personally so virulently reject the theory of evolution because of scientific reasons.. and I have stated my reasons through out the pages here, nothing of creation/religion as pertains to evolution infiltrated my posts... I don't see creation as the anti-science or evolution to be the anti-religion or the two having to exist in parallel realms or else something won't make sense--

    I don't believe evolution on any level would contradict my beliefs should it be proven true, short of the creation of man... nothing in the Quran states a plant can't evolve into a whale. nor does the Quran say that the 6 days of creation are governed by this earth's laws of physics and relativity --- However the possibility of an Ape turning into a human is very unlikely, given what we know of genetics, mutations and molecular biology!

    I can't get into your psychological assessment of an "ego thing"... that is just a funny observation... thanks for making me smile!

    peace!
    Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him


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    MustafaMc's Avatar
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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    Quote Originally Posted by Muezzin View Post
    Yeah, but why do people want to impose it? They act as if it's such an important scientific discovery when really, it has very little practical use whatsoever. It's trivia in the long run, when it comes to living our lives right here and now. It's meaningless conflict that will never be resolved because when it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter where we came from; what matters is where we're heading.
    You make a good point. Personally, I can't remember being at one time a fertilized egg in my mother's womb, then an embryo, then a fetus and then being born. My mind can't comprehend that at one time I was smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. If I can't comprehend this well known fact, then how can I comprehend that all life (unicellular prokaryotes and multicellular eukaryotes, plants and animals, etc.) is supposedly descended from a common living ancestor.

    This coflict continues because 1) some people can't imagine that random chance mutations, recombinations and natural selection can arbitrarily lead to the development of new, better species and 2) some people can't imagine an All-Powerfull Being created life forms either as we know them or that He directed and controlled the devlopmental, evolutionary process. Unfortuantely, I don't see how one side can ever prove with scientific evidence the other wrong.

  10. #8
    Muezzin's Avatar
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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    Quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis View Post
    It is really only so heated because it is rejected so virulently.
    Not necessarily. I've often seen certain athiests begin threads in message forums in order to somehow get one over on creationists or people of faith. But I do see your point.

    Most people who believe in evolution would readily give up that belief is something better with more evidence came along. The same is not likely for those who disbelieve. The two groups believe for different reasons. One is science. The other is faith.
    I appreciate that. I think people should believe what they want to. I just really detest these ongoing debates that will never be resolved, and are simply the intellectual equivalent of males competing to see who has the larger genitalia.

    Some people of faith will accept it and point out that it need not necesarily clash with their creation stories (ie perhaps we evolved since adam and eve, etc). With others I think it may be an ego thing, thinking we couldn't possibly have evolved from the same ancestors as apes, because that threatens their self image and self importance.
    Hmm... I guess ego threat does come into it for some people, but not for all. Some oppose it on scientific grounds.

    But I should really take my ranting elsewhere, rather than driving this thread off-topic.

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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    Quote Originally Posted by Muezzin View Post
    Not necessarily. The starter of this thread is an atheist, and obviously put it in the 'Comparative Religion' section so as to prove religion wrong in some strange way. But I do see your point.


    I appreciate that. I think people should believe what they want to. I just really detest these ongoing debates that will never be resolved, and are simply the intellectual equivalent of males competing....
    I would have to disagree. These are very important issues. One of the primary means that theists have to know Allah is through His creation and His revealed books. My knowledge of life, genetics and the intricate processes that occur in a single living being reinforces my belief in a Creator. Atheistic evolutionists seek to disprove the existence of God and they put their faith in illogical assumptions that they claim are scientific.

    To me this dispute is a fundamental defense of Faith that cannot be neglected. It is one thing to believe and let believe what one wants to, it is quite another to let fundamental challenges to one's faith go unopposed.

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    Muezzin's Avatar
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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    Quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc View Post
    I would have to disagree. These are very important issues. One of the primary means that theists have to know Allah is through His creation and His revealed books. My knowledge of life, genetics and the intricate processes that occur in a single living being reinforces my belief in a Creator. Atheistic evolutionists seek to disprove the existence of God and they put their faith in illogical assumptions that they claim are scientific.
    It still doesn't change the fact that people will believe what they like. True, we might think of people with opposing beliefs as fools, but has anyone actually ever been conviced on either side of this particular fence by arguments from the other? Seems that people's beliefs on each side are so entrenched that the entire conflict is meaningless.

    To me this dispute is a fundamental defense of Faith that cannot be neglected. It is one thing to believe and let believe what one wants to, it is quite another to let fundamental challenges to one's faith go unopposed.
    To me, it's not a challenge, it's a non-issue because at the end of the day, I'm secure in my beliefs, the same way things like 'God does not exist' is not a challenge - will arguing about it change that person's belief? Slim chance, but when all is said and done is it really worth all the bother? I personally don't think so. I'd rather just go, 'feh, believe what you want, don't try and impose it on me' and leave it at that (and no, before someone jumps on my back, I'm not opposing dawah, I'm opposing arguing with people who are determined not to change)

    A challenge to me would be something along the lines of 'Religion breeds violence', because the ramifications of such beliefs would have an effect on the way we lead our lives (banning of religious symbols for instance). On the other hand, evolution and creationism have little effect on the way we lead our lives here and now.

    I'm not saying don't defend Islam or religion if it is being attacked, or don't defend ideas held dear to our hearts, but don't engage in fruitless dialogue either. I apologise if I've offended anyone with my frankness.

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    Muezzin's Avatar
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    Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    I've decided to make this thread to drop my ranting from the 'Creationists Dealt a Blow' thread, so as not to drive that one off-topic. EDIT: So apologies if it's a bit confusing near the beginning, when merging posts from other topics, they are displayed in chronological order.

    Anyhow, I truly believe that debates/arguments about evolution, the existence of God, or the superiority of one religion over another, are all equally pointless.

    Evolution - both sides of the argument seem so entrenched, and so unwilling to concede anything, that the entire debate has become a point-scoring farce. Let's leave that sort of thing for the politicians, eh?

    The existence of God - if someone is obstinately determined not to believe in God, what the heck is the point of trying to disprove them? If someone came up to me and said, 'You know, I have scientific proof the sky is made entirely of potatoes', I wouldn't start an argument with him, I'd just roll my eyes and say, 'Rock on, buddy'.

    Superiority of one religion - this is just silly. It's one thing defending allegations against your religion. It's another thing attacking other religions. To those who say it's to aid conversion, I say 'bull'. If I'm trying to sell you a tea set, what technique would you respond positively to? Technique a) I tell you how amazingly awesome the tea set I'm offering to sell you is, or technique b) I tell you how shoddy your current tea set is and how it corrupts society and your children.

    At the heart of all this is the sheer futility of such arguments. What does it really matter to the way we live whether some people believe we descend from a common ancestor as apes, or some people believe we were created in our current form by a deity? Should we feel our own belief is threatened simply because someone else doesn't share it?

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    Re: Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    I've glanced at many of these evolution vs. creationist threads, and it just fails to hold my interest for long. Scientifically, it has been shown that human beings share the most genes with certain species of monkey, but I don't know what that means or if that is even relevant in the long run. It's pretty obvious that we aren't monkeys, so to that end I'm not sure what the debate really is, except for the origins of life.
    Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."

  16. #13
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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    Muezzin,
    To kind of follow on MustafaMc's observations. I think the arguments hit a nerve for some people because they go against deeply held beliefs which effects both theists and atheists. It challenges their worldview and some personalities get offended at that and they get "fired up" to defend it.

    My question would be do you not like debate in general or just heated debates. I don't mind debating my beliefs in a normal manner, just to test to see if my view of things stands up to differing views or to find new perspectives.

    Thanks.

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    Muezzin's Avatar
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    Re: Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltoi View Post
    It's pretty obvious that we aren't monkeys, so to that end I'm not sure what the debate really is, except for the origins of life.
    If only it had stayed a genuine discussion about the origin of life, and had not become a silly point-scoring game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gator
    Muezzin,
    Yo.

    To kind of follow on MustafaMc's observations. I think the arguments hit a nerve for some people because they go against deeply held beliefs which effects both theists and atheists. It challenges their worldview and some personalities get offended at that and they get "fired up" to defend it.
    I understand it ruffles feathers and offends people on each side. But I still don't see how it affects our daily lives in any significant way, unless we happen to be Richard Dawkins or something.

    My question would be do you not like debate in general or just heated debates. I don't mind debating my beliefs in a normal manner, just to test to see if my view of things stands up to differing views or to find new perspectives.
    Heated debates about things that will actually affect us? Fine. Good. Do it. Let's get the best solution possible. Heated debates about stuff that really amounts to nothing in the sense it does not contribute to the way we are treated or treat others? I think those kind of arguments are pointless and are just conflict for the sake of conflict.

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    Woodrow's Avatar
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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    Quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia View Post
    ^^^ This is why--


    if that is what people believe they came from.. they can be my guest... I just don't want it imposed on me in any sort of debate, heated or not...
    Nice picture of GBW. OOOOOps GWB, No problem he wouldn't have noticed the difference


    I don't think that is the reason so many get so heated up. I believe the reason is much deeper. I think many people perceive it as an attack against their religious understanding and that it is blasphemous to them. People feel very insulted and angry if something differs from their inner beliefs.

    What is interesting is that the first time a basic religious belief is challenged is when a person becomes the most angry, the more times it is challenged the more skilled the person becomes at handling the challenge. They will either discover it can cause their belief no harm, learn valid refutations or accept that not everybody has the same beliefs they do. (Festinger's inoculation theory, reworded)

    The whole thing boils down to a personal level, much like Bro. Muezzin said.

    If it can not stop me from living my life as I choose, why get angry over it.
    Last edited by Woodrow; 04-27-2007 at 09:28 PM. Reason: Repaired GBW
    Pointless debates and fruitless discussion




  20. #16
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    Re: Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Muezzin View Post
    If only it had stayed a genuine discussion about the origin of life, and had not become a silly point-scoring game...


    Yo.


    I understand it ruffles feathers and offends people on each side. But I still don't see how it affects our daily lives in any significant way, unless we happen to be Richard Dawkins or something.


    Heated debates about things that will actually affect us? Fine. Good. Do it. Let's get the best solution possible. Heated debates about stuff that really amounts to nothing in the sense it does not contribute to the way we are treated or treat others? I think those kind of arguments are pointless and are just conflict for the sake of conflict.
    I see where you're coming from. I guess the reason a public debate effects non-scientists, besides just entertaining exchange of information, would be the debate about what's taught in school. Other than that, I agree the effect of continuing debate on evolution or creationism is going to effect me this very day is pretty limited.

    I guess just don't take part or read them.

  21. #17
    Muezzin's Avatar
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    Re: Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gator View Post
    I see where you're coming from. I guess the reason a public debate effects non-scientists, besides just entertaining exchange of information, would be the debate about what's taught in school.
    That's a good point.

    Other than that, I agree the effect of continuing debate on evolution or creationism is going to effect me this very day is pretty limited.

    I guess just don't take part or read them.
    True. Ah, you just used my own logic against me. Drats.

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    Al_Imaan's Avatar
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    Re: Creationists dealt a blow

    Quote Originally Posted by Muezzin View Post
    I've never understood the debate about evolution. Whether or not my prehistoric ancestors evolved from a shared ancestor to apes does not affect my daily life in the least. So why do people get so fired up about it, on both sides of the fence?

    People are dumb.
    maybe its cuz some ppl want to be evolved from apes...or do they?..
    Pointless debates and fruitless discussion


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    Re: Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    Anything that helps you draw closer to G-D, through understanding of his creation, isn't fruitless. I posted the http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...-must-see.html

    for that exact purpose...So a person would reflect on all these intricate processes-- Sometimes the debate isn't about the debater or the debatee but the passer by in his yahoo spider slurp... s/he might read something that clicks... Everyone finds their way to G-D differently, should they find him!... That is personally how I found this forum... I looked something up under ask jeeves and voila, I had a well thought out answer. And I remember the very member whose post I had read!

    Some cavort in ignorance and science fictions deeming it scientific in spite of strong evidence to the contrary. I suppose G-D by default doesn't appeal to many... but in the wise words of one Sir Arthur Conan Doyle "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." So where I agree, I don't particularly enjoy getting into vain discourse with someone -- when I personally write, I don't have one member in mind. I do it for the sake of putting forth what I have learned and pledging my effort to G-D

    Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him


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    Muezzin's Avatar
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    Re: Pointless debates and fruitless discussion

    That's cool because it's not a pointless debate, it's educational.

    I was referring more to silly debates where no side gives in, are more about point-scoring than truth, and which don't even matter in the long run.


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