Moses and the Injil

Here!

Excellent!

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

Here!

There are several problems with this, as Isaiah is neither in the Torah nor the Gospels. Jewish Scriptures have three parts, Law(Torah), Prophets(Nebiim), Writings(Kethuvim). Isaiah is not in the Torah but in the Prophets.

Plus, if one reads all of Isaiah 29 in context you will see that it doesn't refer to an "unlettered prophet" at all. Not to mention that the verse in question is talking about an event in Jerusalem, not Arabia. Also, if you truly want to connect Muhammad to verse 12, you would also have to connect him to verse 13...check it out.

The link also didn't answer the question as to how Moses would know about the Gospels when it wasn't written until 1400 years later.

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

There are several problems with this, as Isaiah is neither in the Torah nor the Gospels. Jewish Scriptures have three parts, Law(Torah), Prophets(Nebiim), Writings(Kethuvim). Isaiah is not in the Torah but in the Prophets.

Plus, if one reads all of Isaiah 29 in context you will see that it doesn't refer to an "unlettered prophet" at all. Not to mention that the verse in question is talking about an event in Jerusalem, not Arabia. Also, if you truly want to connect Muhammad to verse 12, you would also have to connect him to verse 13...check it out.

The link also didn't answer the question as to how Moses would know about the Gospels when it wasn't written until 1400 years later.

Mohammed knew about the gospels though.

Are you kidding me? you are upset because it states the Torah instead of Isaiah? lol-- take it out with G-D on the day of judgment-- I don't really care in which of their five books it is found---older newer, reinterpreted, or fifty percent new and improved. If the Torah or the Injil were in their original form, there would be no need for the Quran to clarify the errors of the previous two-- we obviously have a different understanding of biblical and Quranic passages --
Further I am not sure I understand your other Question? Maybe it is the hour of the night-- but where do you see Moses knowing about the Gospel from the verse above? giving glad tiding of prophet Mohammed, doesn't automatically denote knowing of the gospel-- and even if he did, what is the big deal? the same way Jacob PBUH knew from G-D that which his sons didn't as evidenced in this verse

قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَشْكُو بَثِّي وَحُزْنِي إِلَى اللّهِ وَأَعْلَمُ مِنَ اللّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ {86}

[Pickthal 12:86] He said: I expose my distress and anguish only unto Allah, and I know from Allah that which ye know not."

Yet he was grieved enough to the point of losing his eye sight, knowing still that Allah would fulfil his promise... so I am not sure wherein the conundrum lies? It baffles me you can make sense of Jesus praying to himself in the garden of Gethsemane, and yet can't fathom, why a messenger of G-D would know something in the way of future events?...

Anyhow here is a commentary from the multilingual Quran as per your verse of interest-- I am not sure how scholarly Purya is-- or even who he is really, but undoubtedly he is better scholared than me when it comes to Islamic jurisprudence-- or you can wait until a morning when one of the board scholars answers you with that which is more satisfactory
peace!



Beta version. Kindly report any error in this text (specify the surah and aya numbers).

Request: Sura 7 Aya 156 to 157

وَاكْتُبْ لَنَا فِي هَـذِهِ الدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً وَفِي الآخِرَةِ إِنَّا هُدْنَـا إِلَيْكَ قَالَ عَذَابِي أُصِيبُ بِهِ مَنْ أَشَاء وَرَحْمَتِي وَسِعَتْ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَسَأَكْتُبُهَا لِلَّذِينَ يَتَّقُونَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَـاةَ وَالَّذِينَ هُم بِآيَاتِنَا يُؤْمِنُونَ {156}

[Pickthal 7:156] And ordain for us in this world that which is good, and in the Hereafter (that which is good), Lo! We have turned unto Thee. He said: I smite with My punishment whom I will, and My mercy embraceth all things, therefore I shall ordain it for those who ward off (evil) and pay the poor-due, and those who believe Our revelations;
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 7:156]
"My mercy encompasses everything" shows that the canvas of Allah's mercy enfolds all those sinners who turn repentant unto Him as mentioned in verse 153. While warning people in Bani Israil: 15(No one shall carry another's burden), and in Zilzal: 7 (whosoever has done even an atom's weight of good shall be rewarded), Islam assures the sinners that the doors of Allah's mercy always remain open for those who sincerely turn repentant to Allah (see commentary of al Fatihah: 3).

The theory of a general and unconditional pardon propagated by any religion that the price of the sins committed, being committed and to be committed by all the human beings has been paid by a prophet, gives birth to evil, disorder and corruption. It becomes a licence to sin and make mischief in the world. See Jathiyah: 21 and 22.

Verse 157 says that the divine mercy is available to those who safeguard themselves against evil and follow the teachings of the Holy Prophet, again repeated in verse 158. See commentary of Nisa: 80.

For ummi see commentary of al Baqarah: 78.

The advent of the Holy Prophet had been announced by Musa and Isa. See commentary of al Baqarah: 40.

For amr bil maruf and nahya anil munkar see commentary of Ali Imran : 101 to 115 (Aqa Mahdi Puya's note on page 245.

The Holy Prophet was sent to the whole mankind as a messenger of Allah for all times. See also Nisa: 7 ; Anbiya: 107 and Saba: 28. Matthew 10: 5, 6; and 15: 22 to 26 confirm that Isa was sent to the lost sheep of the children of Israil.

See commentary of al Baqarah: 255 for "There is no god but He and to Him belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth"; and for "He gives life and death" refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 259 and 260.

الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الأُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِندَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالإِنْجِيلِ يَأْمُرُهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَآئِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالأَغْلاَلَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُواْ النُّورَ الَّذِيَ أُنزِلَ مَعَهُ أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ {157}

[Pickthal 7:157] Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 7:157] (see commentary for verse 156)


*****

format_quote Originally Posted by Philosopher

You all are idiots. I can't believe human beings as complex organisms still rely on pre-Medieval dogmas.

Harsh.

format_quote Originally Posted by rav

Shalom,

This claim of Devarim 18:18 has been refuted numerous times on this site, as have most of the other claims of Islamic figures in Jewish scripture. You are free to believe what you wish, but understand that when my scriptures in my belief are being taken out of context, or mistranslated, then I will stand up and let my voice be heard, like you would if your scriptures were ever misinterpreted.

Peace be upon you to,

Where has it, am curious to read, I have only seen one that lav posted but he is gone.

The Description of that Messenger


[الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِىَّ الأُمِّىَّ الَّذِى يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِندَهُمْ فِى التَّوْرَاةِ وَالإِنجِيلِ]


(Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither
read nor write whom they find written with them in the Tawrah and the Injil,) This is the description of the Prophet Muhammad in the Books of the Prophets. They delivered the good news of his advent to their nations and commanded them to follow him. His descriptions were still apparent in their Books, as the rabbis and the priests well know. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sakhr Al-`Uqayli said that a bedouin man said to him, "I brought a milk-producing camel to Al-Madinah during the life time of Allah's Messenger. After I sold it, I said to myself, `I will meet that man (Muhammad) and hear from him.' So I passed by him while he was walking between Abu Bakr and `Umar, and I followed them until they went by a Jewish man, who was reading from an open copy of the Tawrah. He was mourning a son of his who was dying and who was one of the most handsome boys. The Messenger of Allah asked him (the father),


«أَنْشُدُكَ بِالَّذِي أَنْزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ هَلْ تَجِدُ فِي كِتَابِكَ هَذَا صِفَتِي وَمَخْرَجِي؟»

(I ask you by He Who has sent down the Tawrah, do you not find the description of me and my advent in your Book) He nodded his head in the negative. His son said, `Rather, yes, by He Who has sent down the Tawrah! We find the description of you and your advent in our Book. I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that you are the Messenger of Allah. ' The Prophet said (to the Companions),


«أَقِيمُوا الْيَهُودِيَّ عَنْ أَخِيكُم»


(Stop the Jew (the father) from (taking care of) your brother (in Islam).) The Prophet then personally took care of the son's funeral and led the funeral prayer on him.''' This Hadith is sound and is supported by a similar Hadith in the Sahih narrated from Anas. Ibn Jarir recorded that Al-Muthanna said that `Ata' bin Yasar said, "I met `Abdullah bin `Amr and asked him, `Tell me about the description of Allah's Messenger in the Tawrah.' He said, `Yes, by Allah! He is described in the Tawrah, just as he is described in the Qur'an,



[يأَيُّهَا النَّبِىُّ إِنَّآ أَرْسَلْنَـكَ شَاهِداً وَمُبَشِّراً وَنَذِيراً ]

(O Prophet! Verily, We have sent you as a witness, and a bearer of glad tidings, and a warner.) [33:45] as a safe refuge for the unlettered ones. `You are My servant and Messenger. I have called you `Al-Mutawakkil' (who trusts in Allah), not hard or harsh.' Neither uttering foul speech in the markets nor returning evil deed with one in kind. Rather, he forgives and forgoes. Allah will not end his life until He straightens through him the crooked religion, so that they might proclaim, `There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah.' He will open through him sealed hearts, deaf ears and blind eyes.''' `Ata' then said, "I also met Ka`b and asked him the same question, and his answer did not differ from `Abdullah's answer, even concerning one letter. '' Al-Bukhari recorded it from `Abdullah bin `Amr. It was also recorded by Al-Bukhari [up to the word] forgoes. And he mentioned the narration of `Abdullah bin `Amr then he said; "It was common in the speech of our Salaf that they describe the Books of the People of the Two Scriptures as the Tawrah, as some Hadiths concur. Allah knows best.'' Allah's statement,


[يَأْمُرُهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَـهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ]

(He commands them to do good; and forbids them from evil This is the description of the Messenger of Allah in previous Books. These were the true qualities of our Messenger , as well, for he only ordained good and forbade evil. We should mention here that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "When you hear Allah's statement,



[يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ]

(O you who believe!), then pay it your full attention, for it is a good that you are being commanded, or an evil that you are being forbidden.'' And the most important and greatest of these commands and prohibitions, is that Allah has sent the Messenger to order worshipping Him Alone without partners and forbid worshipping others besides Him. This is the Message that Allah has sent all Messengers with before Muhammad , just as Allah said,


[وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِى كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَّسُولاً أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللَّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُواْ الْطَّـغُوتَ]
(And verily, We have sent among every Ummah a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah, and avoid the Taghut (false deities)'')[16:36]. Allah's statement,


[وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَـتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَـئِثَ]

(He makes lawful for them the good things, and forbids them from the evil things,) meaning, he makes the Bahirah, Sa'ibah, Wasilah and Ham, etc., lawful. They were prohibitions that they invented which were only hard for themselves. He also forbids them from evil things, such as the flesh of the pig, Riba, and foods that were treated as lawful although Allah the Exalted had forbidden them. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported this from Ibn `Abbas. Allah's statement,


[وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالاٌّغْلَـلَ الَّتِى كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ]

(He (Muhammad) releases them from their heavy burdens, and from the fetters that were upon them.) indicates that Muhammad came with leniency and an easy religion. As mentioned in the Hadith recorded from many routes that Allah's Messenger said,




«بُعِثْتُ بِالْحَنِيفِيَّةِ السَّمْحَة»

(I was sent with the easy way of Hanifiyyah [monotheism]) The Prophet said to the two Commanders he appointed, Mu`adh and Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari, when he sent them to Yemen,


«بَشِّرَا وَلَا تُنَفِّرَا وَيَسِّرَا وَلَا تُعَسِّرَا وَتَطَاوَعَا وَلَا تَخْتَلِفَا»


(Bring glad tidings and do not drive people away, make things easy and do not make them difficult, obey each other and do not differ among yourselves). Abu Barzah Al-Aslami, the Prophet's Companion, said, "I accompanied the Messenger of Allah and saw how easy he was. The nations that were before us had things made difficult for them in their laws. Allah made the law encompassing and easy for this Ummah. Hence the statement of the Messenger of Allah,


«إِنَّ اللهَ تَجَاوَزَ لِأُمَّتِي مَا حَدَّثَتْ بِهِ أَنْفُسُهَا مَا لَمْ تَقُلْ أَوْ تَعْمَل»


(Allah has forgiven my Ummah for what occurs in themselves, as long as they do not utter it or act upon it.) The Prophet said,


«رُفِعَ عَنْ أُمَّتِي الْخَطَأُ وَالنِّسْيَانُ وَمَا اسُتُكْرِهُوا عَلَيْه»


(My Ummah was forgiven (by Allah) unintentional errors, forgetfulness and what they are forced to do.)'' This is why Allah has guided this Ummah to proclaim,




[رَبَّنَا لاَ تُؤَاخِذْنَآ إِن نَّسِينَآ أَوْ أَخْطَأْنَا رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تَحْمِلْ عَلَيْنَآ إِصْرًا كَمَا حَمَلْتَهُ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِنَا رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تُحَمِّلْنَا مَا لاَ طَاقَةَ لَنَا بِهِ وَاعْفُ عَنَّا وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَآ أَنتَ مَوْلَـنَا فَانْصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَـفِرِينَ]


("Our Lord! Punish us not if we forget or fall into error, our Lord! Lay not on us a burden like that which You did lay on those before us (Jews and Christians); our Lord! Put not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Pardon us and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. You are our Mawla (Patron, Supporter and Protector) and give us victory over the disbelieving people.) [2:286] It is recorded in Sahih Muslim that [the Prophet said that] Allah the Exalted said after every one of these supplications, "I shall accept (your supplication).'' Allah's statement,


[فَالَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ]


(So those who believe in him, honor him, help him.) refers to respecting and honoring Muhammad ,


[وَاتَّبَعُواْ النُّورَ الَّذِى أُنزِلَ مَعَهُ]


(and follow the light which has been sent down with him,) the Qur'an and the revelation [Sunnah] that the Prophet delivered to mankind,


[أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ]


(it is they who will be successful.) in this life and the Hereafter.


[قُلْ يَأَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنِّى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ جَمِيعًا الَّذِى لَهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ يُحْىِ وَيُمِيتُ فَـَامِنُواْ بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ النَّبِىِّ الأُمِّىِّ الَّذِى يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَكَلِمَـتِهِ وَاتَّبِعُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ ]


(158. Say: "O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah -- to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. None has the right to be worshipped but He. It is He Who gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believes in Allah and His Words, and follow him so that you may be guided.'')




Tafsir Ibn Kathir - SOURCE

So from what I understand so far, the verse in question is to be looked at as a prophecy? Allah is telling Moses about the Injil that doesn't yet exist because Allah can obviously see the future? I of course agree that God knows all that was and all that will be. If this is the explanation I have no choice but to accept it. Contrary to what some might think, I didn't post this question trying to "trip" anyone up, I came upon this verse and the timeline struck me as odd. I've been told that the Qu'ran has many time compression issues, and this appeared to be an example. Thanks for the responses.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Peace be upon you to,

Where has it, am curious to read, I have only seen one that lav posted but he is gone.

Shalom Eleichem (Peace be upon you),

Posted from here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/712307-post34.html

Claim: The Torah Itself Predicts Mohammed as a Prophet

Many Muslims will claim that the Torah itself (apparently the "uncorrupted" part) predicts the coming of their so-called prophet some time after the giving of the Torah. All Bible translations are directly from the Hebrew, all of them literal.

Where Did They Get That Idea?

The relevant verse of the Torah is as follows:

Deuteronomy 18:18 A prophet I will raise up for them from amongst their brethren like you and I will give my words into his lips and he will speak about them all that I command him.

We must ask the following: who is "I", who is "you", who is "them/their"? "I" is G-d, "you" is Moses, "them/their" refers to the Israelites.
So a paraphrase could be: G-d will raise up for the Israelites a prophet from the Israelites' brethren some time in the future that will be like Moses and speak the words of G-d.

Having established that, what's the connection?

The assertion is that "from amongst their brethren" refers to the Ishmaelites, and as Muslims assert many times, Mohammed is descended from Abraham through Ishmael.

In order to properly analyze this, I will not make a table comparing Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, as many do on both Christian and Muslim websites in order to pervert the meaning of this verse.

Instead, I will make a minor sidestep into the world of Jewish thought.
For those of us that do not have the presumption that the Torah is wrong and faulty, there is a list of thirteen basic rules on how to deduce meaning from the Torah. They are provided as the introduction to Sifre, and are recited in the preliminary portion of the daily morning prayers.

Just as in the Torah where there are laws that are obviously "just" and those that we cannot comprehend, a parallel applies here. Some rules make sense, and others are assertions of rules. I will make use of two rules that make a good deal of sense.

Rule number 2 states quite simply "mig'zerah shavah" which means "From a decree of equality".

Rule number 12 is that "davar halamed m'inyano, v'davar halamed m'sofo" which is often translated like "An item is taught/clarified from it's context, or from nearby verses."

Why these two rules? Rule number 2 tells us that if we have a word in one location that is vague, and the same word elsewhere more clear, we can use one to clarify the other. The reason for the second rule will be evident shortly.

The Rebuttal

Just a chapter back, in Deuteronomy 17, we find a similar phrase, but the voice is different. This time Moses is delivering a message from G-d directly to the Israelites, speaking to the Israelites as a single group, instead of us hearing what G-d says to Moses.

Deuteronomy 17:15 You shall put (appoint) upon yourself a king that G-d will pick him; from amongst your brethren you shall appoint a king; you will not be able to give upon yourself a foreign man that is not your brother.

This verse, just a chapter behind the verse about the prophet is quite explicit. It uses the phrase "amongst (their/your) brethren" and then clarifies that a foreigner, which is definitely a non-Israelite, is not the Israelite's brother.

For further explicitness of the term foreigner, let's turn to Exodus 12.
Exodus 12:43 And G-d said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance of the Passover offering, every son of a foreigner shall not eat of it.
Conclusion

Since we can now see that a foreigner does not take part of something as central as the Passover celebration, which is incumbant on all Israelite males when the Temple stands, we can see that a foreigner is simply a non-Israelite, and it doesn't matter their genealogy.

In Islam we have tafseer - verse-by-verse explanation of qur'an. Is there anything similar in Judaism for the tanakh, & if so is it available to non-Jews?

Yes, thousands of our wisest sages have commented on the Torah throughout history, which is another reason as to why we believe the Torah is uncorrupted. If it was corrupted, these sages would be commenting line by line on different verses, yet from Spain, France, Yemen, Ethiopia, Vilnus, Poland and Russia they are the same.

Unfortunatly, for almost 99.9% of them, Hebrew is the language they are written in... A few have been completly translated into english and are sold at artscroll.com

Oh yea, I think I asked him if he had a Jewish Translation of the Scripture of Dueteronomy that I could read online, have you?