Off topic posts moved from "Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible"

Post # 35

format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Yes

El's Holy Qur'aan Chapter Two , Verses One - Four ( Revealed in the year 624 - 626 A.D. ) Verse 266, 632 Revealed In Medina .
Verse 1 . Adam - the Shadow Hour of Power ; Muhammad the first and the last newsbearers , of the seed of Adam . Verse 2 . That Book is a scriptures no doubt about that ; inside of it there is leading calmness to those who tremble . Verse 3 . These are they who are faithful to what is unseen , and they get up to perform salutation as worship ; and of the things We, ([ We Not He ] Eloheem , Anunnaqi ) provided for them , they share willingly . Verse 4 . These are they who are faithful to that was send down to you ( Muhammad ) , And what was sent down before your time ; ( that is the other scriptures and tablets ) , and in Al Akhir - The End , they will certainly be prosperous .

What book are you quoting from? Is "El's" the NOI version of the Quran?

From Malik translation into English:

Sura 2 ayat 1 Alif Lam M'im.

2 This is The Book in which there is no doubt. It is a guide for those who are God conscious,

3 who believe in the Unseen, who establish Salah and spend in charity out of what We have provided for their sustenance;

4 who believe in this Revelation which is sent to you (O Muhammad) and the Revelations which were sent before you (Torah, Psalms, Gospel...) and firmly believe in the Hereafter.

As has been stated, to believe in the original revelations sent through prophets Musa (Moses), Dawood (David) and Isa (Jesus) is one thing and to believe in the Bible as it exists today is another. Just think about the NT. How many of the words even in the four gospels are even attributed to Jesus? Only the ones in red font of some Bibles. Muslims do not accept, by any stretch of the imangination, Paul as a prophet of God through which revelation was made to him as he claims in Galations.

This does not say that Muslims are to do more than believe in the original revelation - of which I am sure portions still exist in the Bible.

format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21

With all do respect sound like you want to pick and choose what you want to believe . But we can agree to disagree but I rather let the scriptures tell us what The Most High saying .

El Holy Qur'aan Chapter 89 , Verse 1 -5 ( Original order 89 ) Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D. And I Quote ;Alif ; Adam -Laam ; Laytul Qadri , 'The Shadow Hour of Power ; Miym ; Muhammad ( the first and the last of the ones sent , of The Seed Of Adam ) .

Verse 2 . The Source , Allah is He ( He Not We ) who no Illaaha ( Allahs ) 'Sources ' would exist , except by way of Him ( Hu - The Force Of Creative Will ) . He is Al Hayyu ' The Everliving , Al Qayuwm '' The Subsisting . Verse 3. He ( He Not We ) Nazala 'Sent Down on you , ( Muhammad ) Al Kitaab '' The Scriptures ( Qur'aan ) Bi -Al Haqq '' With The Facts ( beyond any doubt ) , Musaddiqaan ' Confirming what is between Yadayhi ''His Hands ' ,( These are the scriptures before the Quraan ) ; and Anzala ' He Sent Down Al Tawraat '' The Torah and Al Injiy 'The Evangel ( send down the Injiyl but gave it to Yashu's / Isa ) Verse

4 . ( The other scriptures ) are Hudaa 'Calmness ' from before ( Quraan ) , for Al Naas ''The Enosites , ( the Children of Israel and the Torah ) ; And Anzala 'He Sent Down Al Furqaan ' The Differentiation . Surely , those who conceal what they know to be the facts , about Allah's Ayyaat 'Verses ' ( which are all His scriptures ) ; for them there will be a pain that is Shadiyd ' Forceful , and The Source Allah has the might , for He ( He Not We ) is the Aziyz '' Mighty of the Intiqaam ' Avenger .

Verse 5 . Surely , nothing in Al Samaa-i 'the Heavenly Skies , ( The Firmaments ) or the 'Planet Earth is Yakhfaa 'Hidden from The Source , Allah .

What is "El Holy Qur'aan"?

Malik translation:
Surah 89 ayat 1 By the morning,

2 and the ten nights,

3 the even and the odd,

4 and the night when it departs!

5 Is there not in these an oath (enough evidence) for those who use their common sense?

What does this have to do with your point about Muslims reading the Bible?

format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21

With all do respect sound like you want to pick and choose what you want to believe . But we can agree to disagree but I rather let the scriptures tell us what The Most High saying .

El Holy Qur'aan Chapter 89 , Verse 1 -5 ( Original order 89 ) Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D. And I Quote ;Alif ; Adam -Laam ; Laytul Qadri , 'The Shadow Hour of Power ; Miym ; Muhammad ( the first and the last of the ones sent , of The Seed Of Adam ) .

Verse 2 . The Source , Allah is He ( He Not We ) who no Illaaha ( Allahs ) 'Sources ' would exist , except by way of Him ( Hu - The Force Of Creative Will ) . He is Al Hayyu ' The Everliving , Al Qayuwm '' The Subsisting . Verse 3. He ( He Not We ) Nazala 'Sent Down on you , ( Muhammad ) Al Kitaab '' The Scriptures ( Qur'aan ) Bi -Al Haqq '' With The Facts ( beyond any doubt ) , Musaddiqaan ' Confirming what is between Yadayhi ''His Hands ' ,( These are the scriptures before the Quraan ) ; and Anzala ' He Sent Down Al Tawraat '' The Torah and Al Injiy 'The Evangel ( send down the Injiyl but gave it to Yashu's / Isa ) Verse

4 . ( The other scriptures ) are Hudaa 'Calmness ' from before ( Quraan ) , for Al Naas ''The Enosites , ( the Children of Israel and the Torah ) ; And Anzala 'He Sent Down Al Furqaan ' The Differentiation . Surely , those who conceal what they know to be the facts , about Allah's Ayyaat 'Verses ' ( which are all His scriptures ) ; for them there will be a pain that is Shadiyd ' Forceful , and The Source Allah has the might , for He ( He Not We ) is the Aziyz '' Mighty of the Intiqaam ' Avenger .

Verse 5 . Surely , nothing in Al Samaa-i 'the Heavenly Skies , ( The Firmaments ) or the 'Planet Earth is Yakhfaa 'Hidden from The Source , Allah .

Oh, you meant this passage:

Surah 3 1 Alif Lam M'im

2 Allah! There is no god but Him; the Living, the Eternal.

3 He has revealed to you this Book with the Truth, confirming the scripture which preceded it, as He revealed the Taurat (Torah) and Injeel (Gospel),

4 before this, as a guidance for mankind and also revealed this Al-Furqan. Surely those who reject Allah's revelations will be sternly punished; Allah is Mighty, capable of retribution.

5 For sure nothing in the Earth or in the Heavens is hidden from Allah.

And do you claim that the Pauline letters and the book of Revelations are part of either the Injeel or the Taurat?

format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21

( Don't Believe Me . Check It Out ! )


Any reader of The Qur'aan that is familiar with the old testament , Or the new testament , Discovers that the names and events of the books and prophets have been definitely copied in The Qur'aan . I will now prove that the muslims teaching / language was copied from The Old Testament The Five Books Of Moses , / other cultures that predated them .

If both the Quran and portions of the Bible are in fact revelations from Allah, then one by default would expect similarities. It does not prove the later was copied from the earlier.

Yet . They will argue with anyone and try to convince people that Islam and its scriptures , The Quraan is Authentic . When in fact , I can give you serveral Words and Customs That was taken from from The Old Testament The Five Books Of Moses , / other cultures that predated them . For example , the ceremony of The Circumcision ( Genesis 17;10 ) .

Circumcision was first established with Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and the revelation to Prophet Muhammad did not abrogate this requirement.

The concept of a holy day called Sabbath ( Genesis 2 ; 2 -3 ) , And called Jum'ah ( Qur'aan , Chapter 62 ) by the muslims .

The concept is completely different. Yes, we have a day for obligatory congregational worship, but we are not prohibitted from working or doing other things prohibited for the Jew on the Sabbath.

The concept of a Turbaan or Prayer Cap , Which the muslims call a Kuffa , Came from The Jewish Yamala or Yarmulke .

Not a part of the religion and is not required for prayer.

The concept of the muslim Kalimat Tawhiyd ( Qur'aan 47;19 ) . Was taken from the jews Shama Yishrael '' Hear Oh Israel '' ( Dueteronmoy 6 ; 4 and 4 ; 35 ) .

Where they took their Kalimat , Laa Ilaaha Illa Allah ( Qur'aan 47 ; 19 ) . And this was carried over to Christianity ( Mark 12 ; 29 ) . And that's where muslims borrowed it from .

Again similarity does not prove copying - rather a common source of revelation which is Allah.

The took the concept of Fasting from the jews ( Nehemiah 9 ; 1 ) , The concept of Alms Giving ( Qur'aan 4 ; 162 ) , Their concept of making Hajj ( Ezra 3 ; 4 , 6 ; 22 ) .

These "proofs" don't prove anything to me and have nothing to do with Muslims supposedly being required to read the Bible.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85

That list only showed many translations of the Holy Bible, not versions.
I am sure that in every "version" of the Bible from that list is written that- Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to earth in human flesh, died on a cross for our sins and ressurected.

You know lately i read that some muslim woman in USA made new translation of Quaran, where she removed and change all the verses that permitted wife beating, death penalty for apostasy, uneaquality between men and women.

And what, would you say now that there are two Quarans now? or two translations of Quaran?

The same thing is with all this list of so many Bible "versions"

And does this "Quran" that you speak of have the original, unadulterated Arabic alongside the translation?

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Well show us so we can read, you still yet to show me how you understand the statement believe to mean believe they are unchanged and should be read.

Brother, I have not seen the proof either. These claims may be made by members of the "Nation of Islam" in USA to justify their reading both the Bible and the Quran as equally valid "Words of Allah".

Balthasar21, are you from the Nation of Islam?

format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Lakum Diinukum Wa Li Ya Diin

Likewise. My religion is Islam, what is your's?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville

1. Christians going to Heaven

The Koran explains that its purpose was to point people to a relationship with God. The example of this relationship is Abraham’s friendship with God. Note:

4:125 - Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend.

Christians also have this relationship with God. This is acknowledged in the Koran.

3:113-115: Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

Allah will be the judge on that Day.

Quran 5:72-73 Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers. Certainly they are unbelievers who say: "Allah is one of three in a Trinity." There is no god except One Allah. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them.

2. Those Books that were around during the time of Mohammed are available to us today.

Now, there were many religious leaders who Mohammed was very angry with. They distorted what was written down. Mohammed challenged them to bring the Books and read from them.

3:78 - There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

3:93 - All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

7:91 - No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.

Yes, these Books existed at his time along with their errors and changes. These are the very reasons that we are NOT instructed to study the Bible for guidance!

3. The Koran encourages Muslims to study these Books that were previously sent to the Israelites and Christians.

So the issue was not about the accuracy or availability of the Books, but the misinterpretation. Muslims are not encouraged to listen to such people.

3:100 - O ye who believe! If ye listen to a faction among the People of the Book, they would (indeed) render you apostates after ye have believed!

However, they are instructed to read the Books for themselves and even request assistance if they need it.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

The "Book" referred to is the Quran. Yes, revelations were sent to others (descendants of Jacob) prior to the Quran. The point is that the Arabs no longer would have an excuse on that Day.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

This was to reassure Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that this revelation was from Allah and not from Satan also that he was not insane. This shows the humanity of Muhammad (pbuh) as it is an extraordinarily rare event for such to happen to anyone.

Actually, Muslims are not just directed to read, study and believe these Books, but they were encouraged to also copy them that all nations may believe.

7:89 - 90 - These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not. Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

What Quran are you using?
Quran 7:89-90
We shall indeed invent a lie against Allah if we return to your ways after Allah has rescued us therefrom. It is not possible for us to turn back unless Allah, our Rabb, want us to. Our Rabb has vast knowledge of everything. We put our trust in Allah." Then they prayed: "Our Rabb! Decide between us and our nation with truth, for you are the best to decide." The leaders who disbelieved from among his nation said: "If you follow Shu`aib, you shall indeed be losers!"

Perhaps you meant:
6:89-90 Such were the people to whom We gave the Book, wisdom and Prophethood. Now if these people deny this guidance, it does not matter; We would bestow this guidance upon other people who would not disbelieve. O Muhammad, those were the people who were rightly guided by Allah, therefore, follow their guidance and tell these people: "I am not asking you any compensation for this work of delivering the Message to you, this message is nothing but a reminder to all the worlds."

Also 91-92:

Those people have not valued the attributes of Allah, the way His attributes should be valued, who say: "Allah has never revealed anything to a human being." Ask them: "Who then sent down the Book (Torah) which Musa brought, a light and guidance for mankind? You have transcribed it on separate sheets, publishing some and suppressing much of that given knowledge, which neither you nor your forefathers previously possessed." If they do not answer, then just say: "Allah" and leave them alone with the discourse of their useless arguments. This is the blessed Book, like the one given to Musa (Moses), which We have revealed, confirming what came before it, that you, O Muhammad, may warn the people living in the Mother City (Makkah) and those who live around her. Those who believe in the hereafter, will believe in this (Book) and will be steadfast in taking care of their Salah (prescribed prayers).

The passage that you quoted, refers to the guidance that was given to several prophets before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). That quidance no longer exists in the revealed manner in distinct contrast to the unadulterated Quran.

format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Where did the Qur'aan get its teaching from ? Please no side steping the question .

Amazingly suprising that you should ask. Of course, the Quran is a direct revelation from Allah - the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21

I have shown you in my other post where it tell muslim to read the Scriptures before the Quraan , And you didn't accept them that why I said < Lakum - Diinukum - Wa - Li - Ya - Diin - Meaning '' You will have your decision , And I will have mine . .. .

Any Muslim knows this means "to you be your religion, and to me mine."

Obviously you have your mind made up about the Bible . But one thing is forsure if you had read the bible you would have know where your teaching come from '' Yes ''

I strongly disagree with this statement.

If muslims and christians don't read each other holy books , How will they be able to overstand (understand) each other scriptures , Or speak about them , You can't speak about anything you haven't study / read True ? Overstand (understand) something just because some one doesn't agree does - not make them Anti-Anything . Meaning Anti - Christian / Muslims Etc , Etc .
It simply means I disagree no more no less .

Yes, I have read the NT and most of the OT for that very reason - not to seek guidance from it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville

Therefore the evidence remains that principal act is submission to God and not following an Islamic tradition. Christians submit to God and follow a Christian tradition.

Regards,
Grenville

You are right in a sense that Islam is submission to the Will of Allah; however, the form of that submission has been prescribed according to the hadith and the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It is most logical to worship Allah how He wants to be worshipped - not according to our own inventions and desires. The Quran states in 3:85 If anyone is looking for a religion other than Islam, then let it be known that it will not be accepted from him; and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21

All this because I wouldn't agree with you , You ought to be a shame to call yourself a muslims .

Please, do not disrespect my esteemed brother in Islam!

Here A CHALLENGE / QUESTION for you and you can get anyone you want to help you to answer the question ok. Post this question ok being your Moderator it shouldn't be a problem right .


Question ; Are Muslims another sect of Christians ?
None of your fast talking ok we're going to let the scriptures teach ok .
No more of your Sermon / Testimony Etc Etc , You speak of immaturity Yes . Let see if you take the CHALLENGE / QUESTION .

No, Muslims are those who submit to the Will of Allah. Christians believe that Allah had a Son, Jesus, who died on the cross for their sins. No muslim believes this!

Again thank you for the response. My understanding of the verses that you quoted are below.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville

Hi MustafaMc:

You wanted me to provide you with verses that showed where the Koran encouraged Muslims to study those Books that were previously sent to the Israelites and Christians. Please see the following verses.

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

So Muslims are not only to believe the Koran, but the Books sent to Israelites and Christians. You cannot igronantly say “I believe” without actually reading or listening to the Books. Mohammed was not a lunatic. He would not tell Muslims to believe something that they simply had no way of accessing.

We believe in the original revelation revealed through prophets such as Moses, David, and Jesus. How much of the NT are direct quotes of Jesus and how many of them agree word-for-word between the four gospels?

Here is another verse.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

So Muslims are not only instructed to read and believe the Books but to follow them as well.

The book referred to here is the Quran. This verse removes the excuse that the Arabs did not have a revelation from Allah to follow. There were others (Jews and Christians) who received earlier revelations, but corrupted and changed them.

Here is another verse.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

So Muslims are encouraged to seek instruction from those to whom God sent the Books previously, further confirming that acceptable copies were available at the time of Mohammed. Now Muslime are obviously not to seek instruction from those who would “hide the truth knowingly”, but from those described below.

This verse was to reassure Prophet Muhammad that he was not mad and that the revelation was not coming from Satan.

113-115: Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

Yes, I have read this too, but I have also read how "they disbelieve who say Jesus is the Son of God".

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

If both the Quran and portions of the Bible are in fact revelations from Allah, then one by default would expect similarities. It does not prove the later was copied from the earlier.

Circumcision was first established with Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and the revelation to Prophet Muhammad did not abrogate this requirement.


The concept is completely different. Yes, we have a day for obligatory congregational worship, but we are not prohibitted from working or doing other things prohibited for the Jew on the Sabbath.

Not a part of the religion and is not required for prayer.

Again similarity does not prove copying - rather a common source of revelation which is Allah. These "proofs" don't prove anything to me and have nothing to do with Muslims supposedly being required to read the Bible.

Here A question for All muslims here ok


If muslims don't read the scriptures before the Quraan Like the Bible Etc .
How will that be able to Defend their faith against the teaching of the christian which is the christians Bible . Insulting / Cussing / Name Calling Etc Doesn't Change The Teaching Of The Christian Bible Nor Does it change the teaching of the Islam Quraan . Do you know how silly Yall sound saysing , My God Is Better Then Your God . Not to mention the same Prophets that's in the Bible are the same Prophet's In The Quraan . This is Sillyness

format_quote Originally Posted by Balthasar21

Here A question for All muslims here ok


If muslims don't read the scriptures before the Quraan Like the Bible Etc .
How will that be able to Defend their faith against the teaching of the christian which is the christians Bible . Insulting / Cussing / Name Calling Etc Doesn't Change The Teaching Of The Christian Bible Nor Does it change the teaching of the Islam Quraan . Do you know how silly Yall sound saysing , My God Is Better Then Your God . Not to mention the same Prophets that's in the Bible are the same Prophet's In The Quraan . This is Sillyness

Salaam,

It is said that at a time man did not know evil till it was taught.

it is the smae with the bible.

why would we want to know wrong when we already have the light?


Infact,i would say most chrisitan should know their onw bible better first.
the many version,the different words and even different number of chapter..

So i would say they should learn more of Islam so they can defend their faith...