GOD in the eyes of Science: Possibility or Necessity

format_quote Originally Posted by Aalimah

My mind is so open I'm scared something will drop into it

LOL..i cracked at that

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson

Greetings,


Steve, being a man who knows a thing or two about science, surely you'll accept that a scientific fact has to be something that's objectively verifiable, not dependent on subjective prior beliefs?

I'm obviously with Wilberhum on this one...

Peace

Well, when I ask for something in prayer and I get answer from an unexpected corner, time and time again, it is no longer subjective to prior believes. When I took the shahada, the feeling I felt it is way beyond anything psychology can explain. Now I do understand, that these are my personal expieriances. And I understand that they're in no way verifyable to you. But if you like you can verify your own expieriance, the only trick is, you have to make the first step towards God. If you're sincear in believing, God will inshallah make himself objectively verifiable for you.

Anything, any excuse. There is no scientific statement about god in any of your post. There is one and only one reason you refuse to point to one. You don't have one, because there are none.

I'll repeat myself: I'm telling you; every single fact we examine in science is of devine nature. There is not an apple that falls to the ground; not an electon repeling another, not an atom that is held toghether without Allah enpowering it to be so.

Now you can sit there, and ignore this answer (again) and ask me for a scientific fact about God (again). But that's not going to change my answer. I gave you an answer, I already gave you a lot of answers to your question. You might not like those answers, because they don't fit your taste. Yet to deny I've given them is sheer stupidity.

Look if u guys rnt satisfied with the answers given to u, then do yourselves a favor and try readin the Quran "with an open mind." If u still dont believe thats up to u. Its not upto us to try and force u, because we cant. The most we can do is tell u about Islam and invite u to it. If ur still not satisfied, then there is no point in going on with the topic.
End of story

Peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba

Look if u guys rnt satisfied with the answers given to u, then do yourselves a favor and try readin the Quran "with an open mind." If u still dont believe thats up to u. Its not upto us to try and force u, because we cant. The most we can do is tell u about Islam and invite u to it. If ur still not satisfied, then there is no point in going on with the topic.
End of story

Peace

A lot can be learned from an open mind and asking questions.

Then ask questions without getting to each others throats. The whole point is to share information with each other not get cynical.

[QUOTE=czgibson;423551]Greetings,

It seems you're very confused about the meanings of the words 'subjective' and 'objective' here, which has led to you contradicting yourself a few times.

You claim that your personal experiences are not subjective, yet you also say they are not verifiable by me, so in fact they obviously are subjective. Also, your last statement contains an oxymoron: "objectively verifiable for you". Such a thing is self-contradictory. If something is objectively verifiable, then it can be verified by everyone, regardless of their prior beliefs.[quote]
I strongly disagree.
They are not verifiable because i hold no credibility in your eyes. Because my claims, my thoughts, my intentions, my memories, when I explain them to you, I have no credebility. That doesn't mean they are by nature subjective. It's like that just because they are personal. The personal charesteristic of them only makes them unavailable for others, it does not necesairly make them subjective. So it is possible for something to be objective but at the same time unverifiable to some. If the whole world were blind, safe for one person who could see, and that person claims: the sky is blue. Then his statement is still objective. Regardless of wheter other people can verify it or not.

Now regardless of this, you could still question my objectivity (was I delusional? am I lying? did I misinterpret things? am I paranoia? and so on...)
If one of those would be true, then my claims are indeed subjective. But that doesn't mean any given personal experience is subjective by default. It would only mean mine wasn't a trustworthy one. But for you to examine the objectivity of my personal expieriance is futile, since it holds no value to you either way. That's why I suggested to examine your personal expieriance. There you CAN verify wheter or not your claims are lies, there You can still try to keep an open mind for difrent interpretations, there you can examine wheter you are likely to have been delusional or not (have you taken drugs, do you have a menatl illness, do you have an unstable personality... ).

The connection with Allah here is not factual, but assertive.

Every single connection proposed in the field of science is assertive. Your claim brings us no knew knowledge about that connection. For a conenction in Science is assertive by defenition since science is unable to examine the meaning behind causal actions. We can only study a repetetive corelation between two events. And measure and describe the correlation in the form of formula's. But whatever connects them is still as big of a secret as it was a thousand years ago.

No, it isn't. You've been asked for a fact, and you've given a list of assertions, therefore you haven't answered the question at all.

Yes I have answered the question. I've offered my arguments. And I 've shown why the question is flawed. And finaly I have given answers either way. You may disagree on wheter my answers fit the criteria. And discus it as we are doing now. But to conclude I have not answered the questions, while the given answers are still being debated is preposterous. And on top of that it again shows us the ill-willed true nature of the question itself. For the questioner is confident not to encounter an answer in his naroowmindedness. That is why I 've repeadetly have tried to shown the difrent flaws in the questions , and have taken the time in explaining the context of the questions and my answers, before actually giving them.

format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum

Not a single [MAD]Scientific Fact about god[/MAD]

this is ridiculous.

its like you constantly asking, whats 2+2, whats 2+2 and we're all saying, ITS 4 ITS 4 !! But you just ignore us everytime. For the last time theres plenty of scientific facts and proofs in the Quran and Sunnah !!

format_quote Originally Posted by Mazed

this is ridiculous.

its like you constantly asking, whats 2+2, whats 2+2 and we're all saying, ITS 4 ITS 4 !! But you just ignore us everytime. For the last time theres plenty of scientific facts and proofs in the Quran and Sunnah !!

I know
I'm starting to think he's just hoping that eventually we'll give up, and peolpe will only read the last few posts, and thus it will seem as if he has won. But I'm to stuburn to grant him even that

But I'm to stuburn to grant him even that

Now I understand. Add stuburn and stupitidy and I see where you are comming from.
You have no intention of an honest discussion. You only desire to practice your stuburnness.
Contact me when you grow up.

Thank you
Wilber

Funny how u guys totally ignored my post!! Say somethin bout that, im waiting aight? k thnx..
Peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba

Orbits

“(God is) the one who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion.” Qur’an,21:33

Today, the laws governing the celestial systems are well known. Galaxies are balanced by the position of stars and planets in well-defined orbits, as well as the interplay of gravitational forces produced by their masses and the speed of their movements. But is this not what the Qur’an describes in terms which have only become comprehensible in modern times.

Embryo

“I fashioned the clinging entity into a chewed lump of flesh and I fashioned the chewed flesh into bones and I clothed the bones with intact flesh.” Qur’an, 23:14

The term ‘chewed flesh’ (mudghah) corresponds exactly to the appearance of the embryo at a certain stage in its development.

It is known that the bones develop inside this mass and that they are then covered with muscle. This is the meaning of the term ‘intact flesh’ (lahm).

The embryo passes through a stage where some parts are in proportion and others out of proportion with what is later to become the individual. This is the obvious meaning of a verse in the chapter al-Hajj, which reads as follows:

“I fashioned (humans) a clinging entity, then into a lump of flesh in proportion and out of proportion.” Qur’an, 22:5.

Next, we have a reference to the appearance of the senses and internal organs in the chapter as-Sajdah:

“... and (God) gave you ears, eyes and hearts.” Qur’an, 32:9

Those are just a few. I think its enuff.

Heres a website incase u wana know more

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm

God is above his creation..to say proof for Gods "existence" is necessary is like sayin God is part of creation, which seizes God to be unique. To prove God's existence.. i think just looking at this world(His creation) is enuff, unfortunately not enuff for everyone. I know that doesnt go wit the question, but incase some1 is thinkin that.>.< Actually i hope i didnt contradict myself there lol.
Name a process u know thats started on its own without some1 in charge of it. Name a manufactured product completed without some1 being the manufacturer. If i say my computer came to be without a creator, are u gunna believe me? If i say a vcr came to be without a manufacturer are u gunna believe me? of course not. So how can somethin so detailed difficult and specific like the universe jus start on its own? How can somethin so detailed like a human being and every part of us that has a purpose and role in our body jus come to be?
Everything that exists has a purpose one way or another, good or bad. So how can somethin like a human not have a purpose. Somethin more unique than any creation surely has a purpose and most likely a creator.
Neways lets keep this debate clean. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.We all know, there is no compulsion in Islam. Our job as Muslims is to invite ppl to Islam and let them understand it. The rest is up to them to decide what they want to believe.

Peace

Thas wat i posted >.<

The discussion seems to have deteriorated and to avoid any further insults I think it best to close the thread.