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Thread: Sikhism

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    Sikhism (OP)




    ---

    curious.


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    Re: Sikhism

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    Salam..

    It proves Guru Granth Sahib is not the word of God. If it was it wouldn't contain the words of other books
    how in fact does it prove that?... does God not abide in all? Satguru Granth Sahib is a divinely revealed scripture. There are many occasions when this is made clear in Sree Guru Granth Sahib:
    ---
    jaisee mai aavai khusum kee baanee thaisurraa kuree giaan vae laalo ||
    As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo. (722).
    ---
    sathigur kee baanee sath sath kar jaanuhu gurasikhuhu har kuruthaa aap muhuhu kudtaaeae ||
    O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it. (308)

    There are many more examples where it is made clear that the Bani in Guru Granth Sahib is the word of God. Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee was put together by Sree Guru Gobind Singh Jee himself, he took the writings of the other Gurus and put them together, along with writings of other Bhagats (devotee's of the Gurus)... some even argue that those writers (Bhagat Farid, Bhagat Ravidaas, Bhagat Kabeer etc..) became Sikhs after meeting Guru Nanak Dev... they have been referred to as "Bhagat Babay Kay" or, 'Bhagat of Baba (Nanak... i.e. Guru Nanak)'...

    Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee does not contain words of other books.... which books are ur referring to?.. please give examples... and if you studied religions, you would understand that the basis for all the religions is the same...

    Secondly these texts aren't all from god, some of them are written by humans, and historians. All muslims unanimously agree that the whole Qur'an is the word of God, but a lot of priests admit bible has been changed, same with rabbis admitting Torah has changed, and also Hindu opundits admit their scriptures have changed, so in essence a lot of these are word of men, who furthermore are attriuting these words wrongly to God, therefore they are liars, so you may have texts and words written liars in your Guru granth Sahib
    I agree with you there.... Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee does not believe in any other texts... why you may ask?... because NONE of the other texts were written by the Prophet themselves... even the Qura'an was not written by Prophet Mohammed himself, so how can you say it is the word of God? the Bible wasn't written by Jesus Christ... the Vedas were not written by Shiva or Raam.... however, Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee WAS written and compiled by the Sikh Gurus...

    Thirdly my idea of guidance is clearly different from yours. I believe God created us, he knows whats best for us, he knows our ins and outs. So he created us for a purpose, ut he's going to create us with guidance, through prophets (According to islam anyway, through Gurus for you)and when the last prophet has been sent then we have the last revelation, unaltered word of god. We have the Qur'an, which we believe is unchanged, and you believe after the last Guru Gobind Singh now it's the Granth Sahib, which confusingly you admit is not word of god. either way it is the last revelation to us so should be perfect in guidance in every way. we believe ours is all from god, and his laws are perfect, since he knows whats best for us. But your guidance comes from fellow men, who have no divine qualities and are prone to error, how can you have guidance from these people
    brother i'm not completely sure if i Understand what you're saying... i'll try to answer to the best of my ability... I agree God knows whats best for us, and he knows our ins and outs... one thing, where Did i Admit it wasn't the word of GOD? if anything, I would say Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the only scriptures that are the word of God, as it was Compiled by our last Guru, Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee...

    Its weird you're having a go at rituals where you yourself grow your hair, and you even have 5 prayersd a day aswel if i'm not mistaken? can you explain these then please? Also don't loads of sikhs do a pilgrimage evry year to a shrine in Lahore?
    I'm not sure how growing your hair and praying x # of times a day is a ritual? Many people are confsued on the definition of ritual... Firstly, Prophet Mohammed grew his hair AND beard did he not?... Jesus Christ Grew his hair and his beard... so, one might ask, why do we grow our hair?... why not?... God made us with hair, no?.. why go against Gods will and change our appearance?... are we not happy with the way God made us?...so, what, God is not perfect then? You can pray as many times a day as you want, in fact, the more the better, no?
    About the bathing at the shrine in Lahore (and many other shrines around India and Pakistan), there's nothing wrong wit that... i say this because this isn't a ritual... Our Gurus even stated that bathing at these shrines does not do much for your own Spirituality... bathing at these shrines does not wipe away your sins... the only way to do so is to Contemplate the name of the Lord, and ensrhine that in your hear... people go to bathe because these were set up by our Gurus, and they do it out of their own will... I agree, some people might do it as a ritual, and if they are, they're mistaken...

    Oh, and about the question of prophets... from what (little) knowledge I have, Sikhs do recognize Prophets of other religion (i.e. Mohammed, Jesus), however we don't praise/belive in them in that way... Guru Nanak Dev Jee himself said that Mohammed is a friend of God...

    (btw.. sorry for the late responses)

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    Re: Sikhism

    I was directed to this site by moss aswell but i am just going to repost everything here that i said on that website cos as yet no muslim has been able to refute my challenges, happy reading!!!!

    The quoran is an indirect revelation from god via an angel called gabrielle, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a direct revelation from god because gurus were one with god at all times therefore this is the only direct revelation from god. You see muslims dont even believe that we can become one with god so therefore they never grasp the nature of what it means to have a direct revelation, Guru Nanak Dev Ji explains it quite satifactorily when he says "Jai se mai aavai kasam ki baani..." i reveal as the word comes to me. Hindu scriptures are inspired by reverberations that can be heard in different spiritual regions this is the source of the vedas they are not from god either that is why the presiding deity of a spiritual region is the object of their worship. With regards to koran they say "noone can write a surah like it i dare you...." this is easy tell them that you will accept their challenge if they can find even one verse in quoran that can awaken your soul like 1430 pages of bani can, if they say they can then their whole philosophy comes crashing down because in their theological position self-realisation is a farce. And this is the fundamental difference between scripture and revelation or bani, that bani is not a maryada, bani is for your soul, the divine essence within has the opportunity to rekindle its intimate bond with god through the primacy of direct revelation - sounds like boring philosophical words but it is the vital difference between the nature of bani which is guru and the purpose of quoran which is opinion, ie, our guru never left their prophet did!. We need to start to fully understand sikh doctrine before we engage in debate with other faiths many muslims I met say that for all the equality that sikhi preaches it failed to produce even one female guru from its 10 and even elected a child of the age of 8. This misunderstanding shows how they view our religion in reality the answer is that guru is bani and bani has no gender, the vehicle for bani was flesh in a male form, today the vehicle is paper which is neither male or female it has nothing to do with political times or social conditions its about how we veiw the guru - does the body really mean anything?

    MODERATOR'S COMMENT: PLEASE REFRAIN FROM PASTING EXCESSIVELY LONG PAGES OF TEXT TO GET YOUR MESSAGE ACROSS. YOU ARE FREE TO RAISE WHATEVER POINTS YOU LIKE FOR DEBATE.

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    Re: Sikhism

    u say dat we r one wid GOD?????!!!!!!!

    n also....in shikhism, does da women need to wear head cover????

    i ill continue after i get an answer...

    Sikhism



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    Re: Sikhism

    We are not one with God... Yet... we know that God abides in all of us... only through deep contemplation and meditation of GODS name, can we SEE GOD within us and thus become one with God...

    In the Sikh religion we believe in equality, so if a male should cover his head, so should female... women are also encouraged (but not forced) to dawn a turban as well.. i'm not sure if many of you know the Significance of the turban in the Sikh religion, so If you want me to explain that.. i can... i personally think Sikh women who dawn the turban look absolutely exquisite... as i feel Muslim women who wear the Hajab (please forigve me if i spelled it wrong, or used the wrong word) also have that same appeal of 'royalness'...
    here's a picture of a Sikh woman with a Turban...

    Gods Daughter.jpg

    I think thats absolutely beautiful

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    Re: Sikhism

    Well folks it just shows this site is scared of the truth my whole message which was packed with lots of juicy information about sikhism has been deleted by exremist moderators who are scared of the truth well let it be on your on conscience if you have one i am sure this will be deleted too in the guise of offensive nature or something stupid like that.

    Yes sikh men and women should wear keski which is sort of like a turban for cultural reasons women just wear chunnis or scarfes.

    Please ask plenty more questions I am more than happy to answer we love our religion and are proud sikhs so wouldnt want you to go away with the wrong impression of us.

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!!!

    ISDhillon

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    Re: Sikhism

    Quote Originally Posted by ISDhillon View Post
    Well folks it just shows this site is scared of the truth my whole message which was packed with lots of juicy information about sikhism has been deleted by exremist moderators who are scared of the truth well let it be on your on conscience
    Not at all. It is simply unfair to just paste pages and expect a response. If you want to debate then let's discuss each point one at a time. Why are you afraid to examine each point one by one? It shouldn't make a difference, right?

    Bring your first point and we'll discuss it.

    Peace.
    Sikhism

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Sikhism

    Heera Singh

    Sorry for late reply


    Quote:
    It proves Guru Granth Sahib is not the word of God. If it was it wouldn't contain the words of other books


    how in fact does it prove that?...
    This is what was originally said

    Guru Granth Sahib, Sikhism's Holiest collection of gurbani contains Banis from Muslims, Hindus and many others who were not sikhs. This is a first in World History..No holy texts of any religion contain even one line from any other religion...the Sikh religious text contains many pages of such writings of authors from other religions...
    AUTHORS of other religions?Therfore these are not all words of God since normal people wrote in them!

    Satguru Granth Sahib is a divinely revealed scripture. There are many occasions when this is made clear in Sree Guru Granth Sahib:
    ---
    jaisee mai aavai khusum kee baanee thaisurraa kuree giaan vae laalo ||
    As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo. (722).
    ---
    sathigur kee baanee sath sath kar jaanuhu gurasikhuhu har kuruthaa aap muhuhu kudtaaeae ||
    O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it. (308)
    This doesn't prove it is the word of God, all it proves is someone is claiming it is word of God. I believe Qur'an is word of God, but i can't simply use a verse from the Qur'an where God says that, you have to bring more proof than that

    Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee was put together by Sree Guru Gobind Singh Jee himself, he took the writings of the other Gurus and put them together, along with writings of other Bhagats (devotee's of the Gurus)... some even argue that those writers (Bhagat Farid, Bhagat Ravidaas, Bhagat Kabeer etc..) became Sikhs after meeting Guru Nanak Dev... they have been referred to as "Bhagat Babay Kay" or, 'Bhagat of Baba (Nanak... i.e. Guru Nanak)'...

    Number one can you bring me any proof where Guru Nanek met Kabir? In fact Kabir was around well befoe Guru Nanek was, and Kabir never met Guru Nanek and never had any idea that his words were being used by someone else

    Secondly you said Gobind Singh compiled the works of other Gurus, and at same time you're saying it's word of God, therefore are you saying these Gurus are God-incarnates. Can you please explain the concept of God and gurus in Sikhism, i'm really confused

    I agree with you there.... Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee does not believe in any other texts...
    Well earlier on you said
    No holy texts of any religion contain even one line from any other religion...the Sikh religious text contains many pages of such writings of authors from other religions
    So if you don't believe in these texts, why use them in your holy book

    because NONE of the other texts were written by the Prophet themselves... even the Qura'an was not written by Prophet Mohammed himself, so how can you say it is the word of God?
    Lol. Yes bro that's exactly my point, Prophet Muhammed did not write the Qur'an, it's the word of God that was revealed to Prophet Muhammed SAW. Either way, it was compiled in the hearts and minds of companions, they all memorized it, and it was written down in the Prophet SAW's time, just not together, separately on different parchments and pieces of stone, under his supervision, he would recite, and he would instruct companions of his to record. It was compiled together after his passing, but that doesn't really make a difference since it had already been revealed, written down, and since so many people knew it by heart there can't possibly have been any prolem in putting it together

    however, Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee WAS written and compiled by the Sikh Gurus...
    So you're admitting it's not word of God??

    where Did i Admit it wasn't the word of GOD?
    See above

    Can you just bring forward ONE argument to show a muslim ritual is useless? Its all from god and all has divine wisdoms.

    Prophet Muhammed SAW and Jesus AS did cut their hair, and their beard was not down to their waist as i have seen some sikhs have, this is unhygienic, causes spread of germs etc. And do you cut nails?if you don't isn't that also very unhygienic, so many germs and bacteria can grow there

    are we not happy with the way God made us?...so, what, God is not perfect then?
    This is a really strange statment, ok so why is there evil in the world may i ask, accoding to you does that make god not perfect, of course not. God allowed hair to grow so we can express our beauty in different ways, women grow their hair long and look beautiful, men are suited to have it short. Its a feminine quality to have long hair, to grow hair beyond the shoulders is imitating women, and that is not acceptable since we shouldn't imitate women, God has created us different and we should be happy and happy he has created us man or woman, and so should not try to imitate the other sex. Also why grow the hai, well it'd look weird if we were always bold, so naturally has to grow, but then it also has to be cut

    Oh, and about the question of prophets... from what (little) knowledge I have, Sikhs do recognize Prophets of other religion (i.e. Mohammed, Jesus), however we don't praise/belive in them in that way... Guru Nanak Dev Jee himself said that Mohammed is a friend of God...
    Ok i'm really confused now. Can you please just simply answer the question directly. Were they or were they not prophets of God.

    Either they were prophets, or they weren't, in case they were men, who made up things themselves, and attributed them to God, which made them liars. So are they liars, or Prophets?

    You still haven't answered my followng questions

    How can there be more than two ways to God, so you say you recognise people of other religion? well how, only one way can be right

    Also you still haven't explained the "useless" ritual that Guru nanek went on, Hajj, was he a muslim then and not a sikh? How did he go there, did he say he was a muslim?
    Sikhism

    Make Dua for your Brothers and the Angels will make Dua for You!

    Happy moments, Praise Allah
    Difficult moments, Seek Allah
    Quiet moments, Worship Allah
    Painful moments, Trust Allah
    Every moment, Thank Allah
    If Allah brings you to it, He will bring you through it

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    Re: Sikhism

    ISDHILLON

    May i ask what is so superior about the Guru Granth sahib, it's words etc. since non-sikhs wrote this?

    Guru Nanak was influenced by Sant Kabir

    Guru Nanak was influenced by the sayings of Sant Kabir so much that several chapters of Sri Guru Granth Sahib contain couplets of Sant Kabir.


    Below is from www.irf.net



    Guru Nanak was influenced by Sant Kabir

    One of the famous couplets of Sant Kabir is:

    "Dukh mein sumirana sabh karein
    Sukh mein karein na koya
    Jo sukh mein sumirana karein
    To dukh kaye hoye?"

    "In times of trouble, God is remembered by all
    But none remembers Him during peace and happiness.
    If God is remembered in good times of happiness
    Why should trouble occur?"

    Compare this with the following verse of the Qur’an:

    "When some trouble toucheth man,
    He crieth unto his Lord,
    Turning to Him in repentance:
    But when He bestoweth
    A favour upon him
    As from Himself,
    (Man) doth forget what he cried
    And prayed for before,
    And he doth set up
    Rivals unto Allah."
    [Al-Qur’an 39:8]
    Sikhism

    Make Dua for your Brothers and the Angels will make Dua for You!

    Happy moments, Praise Allah
    Difficult moments, Seek Allah
    Quiet moments, Worship Allah
    Painful moments, Trust Allah
    Every moment, Thank Allah
    If Allah brings you to it, He will bring you through it

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    Re: Sikhism

    “May i ask what is so superior about the Guru Granth sahib, it's words etc. since non-sikhs wrote this?

    Guru Nanak was influenced by Sant Kabir”

    sure you can. The guru is spiritual word (gurshabad) or naam, bhagat is one who becomes one with the naam (by doing bhagti) , there is no difference then as the jot in the bhagat (soul) becomes one with the jot in the guru (naam) joti-jot, however the guru has the spirit already immanent in the word (of god), the bhagat becomes a devotee and is attuned to the word.

    Bhagti het gur Shabad trangaa: Through the Shabad, inspiration for Bhagti wells up (sggs 1042).
    Gur ke Shabad sadaa dhiyaaye ehaa bhagti Hari bhavaniyaa: Through the Shabad, meditate forever on the Lord. This devotional worship is pleasing to the Lord (sggs 122).
    Shabad marai bhagti paaye jan soyi: One who dies in the Shabad, obtains Bhagti (sggs 159).
    Banee vajai Shabad vjaaye gurmukh bhagti thaayi paavaniyaa: The devotional service of the pious person, in whom the Gurbani vibrates and the Shabad resounds, is accepted (sggs 122).
    Bhagti bina sahsaa nah chookai Gur ih bhed btaavai: Without Bhagti, doubt is not dispelled; the Guru has revealed this secret (sggs 830).
    Bhagti bhagti karte Hari paya ja Hari Hari Hari Hari Naam samayeeyaa: Serving and praising God, I merge in His Name, then I attain Him (sggs 837).



    The guru is pre-determined in the sense that the spirit (naam) descended in history and becomes determinate in the word (sri guru granth sahib), whereas the bhagats spirit ascends through self-determination and becomes one with the gurshabad. Although such a union is also pre-ordained but the bhagat struggles with this human body (self-determination) whereas as the guru is already realised spirit.

    After the 10th guru the words of the gurus and the bhagats were conferred with guruship that’s why some saints say that what comes out of their mouths is also bani ie, direct revelation. But it is not "gurbani" as those words were not conferred with gurus jot, it is a sort of formal investiture with god sort of like a covenent.

    Now who the hell do you think you are making up stories that my guru was inspired by kabir both kabir and nanak are inspired by god Guru Nanak was sent to this earth self-realised, kabir acheived this state by transcending the teachings of islam ie, sufism I suggest you do some non-biased reading my freind. The same cannot be said of koran which neither defines direct revelation but openly states that mohammed recieved an indirect revelation from an angel called gabrielle, sufism is the evidence that youre religion is not the full truth perhaps you should debate that first before you attempt sikhism.

    I look forward to hearing from you soon.

    Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!!

    ISDhillon

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    Re: Sikhism

    In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

    By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
    Verily Man is in loss,
    Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


    Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

    Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

    Hi ISDhillion-

    My knowledge in you religion is very limited, I have tried to follow this forum trying to get some insight into your religion, but so far it has been a confusing to say the least-

    What I would like to know from you, if you will be kind enough to provide, is whether the religion you follow is the religion chosen by God himself, for whole of Mankind?

    What happens to people who don’t follow your religion?

    What is your belief in the origin of Life?

    And the purpose of life?

    I have so many questions I would like to ask, but ill start of with the above 4- I would be grateful if you can shed some light-

    By the way if you believe that the Quran is not the word of God! Produce your proof if you are truthful!

    Kind Regards

    Quban

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    Re: Sikhism

    Quote Originally Posted by QURBAN View Post
    In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

    By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
    Verily Man is in loss,
    Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


    Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

    Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

    Hi ISDhillion-

    My knowledge in you religion is very limited, I have tried to follow this forum trying to get some insight into your religion, but so far it has been a confusing to say the least-

    What I would like to know from you, if you will be kind enough to provide, is whether the religion you follow is the religion chosen by God himself, for whole of Mankind?

    What happens to people who don’t follow your religion?

    What is your belief in the origin of Life?

    And the purpose of life?

    I have so many questions I would like to ask, but ill start of with the above 4- I would be grateful if you can shed some light-

    By the way if you believe that the Quran is not the word of God! Produce your proof if you are truthful!

    Kind Regards

    Quban
    excellent brother
    nice one!!
    salaam

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    Re: Sikhism

    great questions brother QURBAN !! i cant wait to hear those answers....
    Sikhism

    I am a Muslim
    I am a Muslim and Allah (subh.) I praise;
    For all His blessings, my voice I raise,
    In One God I believe, no equal has He;
    Lord of the Universe, compassionate to me


    http://www.darsequran.com/advert/labbaikram.ram

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    Re: Sikhism

    ISDhillon Kabir was a muslim, he had different beliefs to that of Nanak, he thought Muhammed PBUH was the last messenger, ie Guru Nanek was just any other human being, so why is Kabir's works included here

    You keep going on about the Qur'an being revealed indirectly. How is it indirectly, God told Gabriel AS, and the message was conveyed to Muhammed PBUH, the same message got through. God conveyed the messages in different kinds of way, for example he spoke to Moses PBUH. Anyway, why was the Guru Granth sahib only compiled after the 4th or 5th Guru, this supplies evidence that the other so called Gurus never believed in "Sikhism" and that it was craeted by their followers because they were so impressed by nanaks way of life and character

    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE


    You ask hoiw am i craeting stories about Nank being inspired by Kabir, well maybe because Kabir died before Nanak was around
    Sikhism

    Make Dua for your Brothers and the Angels will make Dua for You!

    Happy moments, Praise Allah
    Difficult moments, Seek Allah
    Quiet moments, Worship Allah
    Painful moments, Trust Allah
    Every moment, Thank Allah
    If Allah brings you to it, He will bring you through it

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    Re: Sikhism

    Satsriakal Quarban Ji

    I hope I get the opportunity to answer more of your question with gurus kirpa all is acheivable.

    “What I would like to know from you, if you will be kind enough to provide, is whether the religion you follow is the religion chosen by God himself, for whole of Mankind? “


    My Answer: This has been discussed many times this is my personal view from a previous discussion, let me also remind you that the various bhagats in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib were not sikhs yet they found god and all belonged to their respective faiths first this clearly shows that it is the love of god that it primary, sikhism took the the torch furhter and revealed the path of naam and atam marg. All religions have specific customs and literature and teachings these teachings help inculcate a love in the seeker to fall in love with god, when a person from another faith falls in love with god they transcend the teachings of their faith by repeating the name of god night and day with devotion and the lord answers their call and they acheive union

    how do i know that different members of different faiths can transcend the teachings of their respective faiths?

    because we have proof in our religion, farid was muslim/sufi, namdev was hindu bhagat etc etc they all did namaz etc or aarti but it was only after they inculcated a love for the divine that they repeated the name and therefore entered naam marg which is what sikhi believes in therefore that is the sentiment behind all faiths being a path to god it has nothing to do with pluralism or contradiction.

    please dont get offended but i do believe that my faith does have unique qualities and that is because as i said before the truth is realised through time and the truth is that it is the love of god which is primary religion is secondary as per sikh teachings.

    What happens to people who don’t follow your religion?

    My Answer: The same is for all people even for sikhs and that is rebirth you do not have to follow sikhism but you do have to follow naam marg which is revealed by sikhism and not by any other religion.

    What is your belief in the origin of Life?

    My belief is simialr to big bang theory but I can only say what the guru says:

    Creation and Gurmat
    "Kita pasao eko kavao" Guru Nanak in JAP JI (Pauri 13)
    Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji teaches - "In the beginning God was all alone and there was no one beside Him. The Great Potential hidden within Him was manifested in His creation. Even after creation, He remains detached as endless and unequaled Absolute One. He creates Nature and Himself witnesses it. He brings to an end to all the creation and He reverts to His original state of Aloneness. Air and water were created from His Absolute Self. He creates the Universe and also Man. Man's body consists of water, fire and matter, and within it exists His Light. It is God's Creative Power, which creates all. From the Absolute Lord emanated the Powers of Creativity, Sustenance and Annihilation (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva). From the Absolute Lord emanated all the ages. He is the real man, who understands this knowledge, and it is as a result of union with God, all man's doubts are dispelled. The Absolute Lord created the five senses, intellect and the mind. The Lord, who created them, He Himself keeps watch over them. The person, who by His Grace associates with the congregation of Saints, brings to an end the cycle of repeated births and deaths.
    "From the Absolute Lord came forth moon, sun and the firmament. His Light is spread in all the three worlds (which is creative) ......" (Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Rag Maru, Sohile, page 1037, Sri Guru Granth Sahib).
    "The Immaculate Lord, Who created His Own self, is all by Himself. He Himself has created the Play of the whole creation. He Himself has created the Three Qualities of Matter and increased love for worldly things. Those, who love the Lord's Will, by His Grace, are the ones who attain salvation. Says Nanak, the True Lord is pervading amongst all and all are contained in the True Lord." (Sri Guru Ram Das Ji, Sarang Ki Var, Pauri 1, page 1337, Sri Guru Granth Sahib).
    In Asa Di Var, Pauri 1, page 463 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji states: "He, the Lord, of Himself, created Himself, and gave Name to Himself. The second thing He created is Nature, wherein He resides and revels in His wonder ......"
    In Siri Rag, page 19, the Guru says: "From the True Lord came the Wind, and from the Wind, came the Water. From the Water sprang the material World, and He, the Lord, pervades all. ......"
    Tenth Guru Ji's says in Tav Parsad Chaupai. "I pay my respects to The Aad Purakh (God). He who is the cause of all causes. He created every thing that is present in Water, on the Ground and above the Ground (i.e.Universe).
    The Guru empasises that GOD IS THE ONLY CREATOR and all was created at His Will. The Creation (Big Bang) theory of Science became popular in the 1960's while Guru Nanak explained the creation in the 1500's.


    However in sikhism we do not deny the ideology behind adam and eve because it helped establish a patriarchial society but it is a metaphor it is not really what happened in dasam granth Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji also wrote an adam and eve style mythology but for the establishment of patriarchy not as a relation to the origin of the universe I could go into depth more on this but it will involve philosophy and I will be here forever and you will get bored this is from dasam granth which is not the guru but poetry:

    Myth of Creation in Sri Bichitar Natak
    Now let us examine the myth of Creation as given in Bachitar Natak by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This myth is the modification of one appearing in Hindu Religious Books, Puranas.
    The Guru states -
    “When the Formless God effected the expansion of the Universe by uttering a WORD, He created the Earth. At the onset He created the Matter of five elements (Maya), from it a most beautiful and powerful king named Kalsain (god Vishnu) emerged. The second king produced was Kalkait (god Brahma) and the third Koorrbaras (god Shiva). The Fourth was Kaldhuj (Mahavishnu), from Whom the whole creation emerged. God has thousands of beautiful eyes and thousands of lovely feet. He has enthroned Himself on the bed cushion of multi-headed Hydra Serpent and He is remembered by the people, the One seated on the coiled body of Hydra Serpent. God extracted wax from one of His ears, from which Madh and Kitab were produced. He then extracted wax from the other ear, from which this Universe was created. He then caused Madh and Kitab to be killed. Their body fluids were thrown into the ocean. The gluey and oily matter of their body fluids began to float on the surface of water and from thence onward the Creation was named after Madh. Those who perform good deeds in this Universe are remembered as godly persons, while the evil doers are called demons.”
    “pritham kal jub kara pasara, oankar tai sirast opara. Kal sain prithmai bhio bhoopa, adhik atul bal roop anoopa. (10)
    kal kait doosar bhoo bhio, koorbaras tisar jug thio.Kaldhuj. chathruth nirap soey, jeh tai bhio jagat sabh ko hai. (11)
    sehas rach ja ko subh sohai, sehes pad jakai tun mo hai. Sais nag par soeibo karai, jugthe saikh saey ochrai. (12)
    Aik sarvan tai mail nikara, tatai madh kitab tun dhara. Dutiya kan tai mail nikari, tatai bhei sirast eih sari. (13)
    tinko kal bohoar badh kara, tin ko maid smund mo para. Chiken tas jul par tir rehi, maida nam tabeh tai kehi. (14)
    Sadh karam jai purkh kamavai, nam daivata jagat kahavai. Kukirat karm jai jug meh karhi, nam asur tin tosabh dharhin. (15)”
    Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji in this myth first gives the idea of Guru Nanak as given in Jupji, that the Universe was brought into existence by utterance of One Word by God. In this way God created the Three gods of Hindu Trinity, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, signifying creation of Matter (Maya) of Three Modes, from which the whole Universe was created. God is further stated to be resting on the coils of the body of Hydra Serpent. Serpent. This Myth is the modification of the Puranic Myth of Creation.
    Wild animals, sword, staff, sceptre, etc. are the father symbols, or the emblems of power and well recognized Phallic Symbol, which normally appear in dreams. God is depicted as Almighty, and also as Male God. (God is Formless - this is a myth). As regards birth of persons through ears, the myths and legends in all cultures abound in this type of birth. The legends and traditions of Catholic Christian Church mention that the conception of Jesus in the virgin Mary was brought about by the introduction into her ear of the breath of the Holy Ghost. Hanuwant and Karna, heroes of Ramayana and Mahabharta respectively were born through the ear. In connection with Madonna's conception through the ear, Dr. Earnest Jones writes, "In the endeavor to represent the purest and least sensual form of pro-creation that can be imagined, the one most befitting to the Creator Himself, the mind worked surely on the soundest lines by reaching for its basis to the crudest and grossest idea obtainable; it is always through such violently extreme contrasts, as we know from the analytic study of literature, that the greatest psychological effects are achieved."
    God in this myth is stated to have created one Man and one Woman through one of His ears, and from the other He created Earth. In whole of this myth of Creation, the Male God is the sole Creator, Who did not take help of any other agency, particularly female one. The first created Man and Woman were named, Madh and Kitab respectively. God is stated to have later caused killing of Madh and Kitab. Killing is the symbolic of the coitus or sexual act, just as riding a horse, car, etc are in all cultures. Mare is a symbolic of a woman, and riding on the back of a mare is the symbolic of coitus. It is therefore riding of mare by the bride grooms on the marriage occasion is the universal practice. Guru Nanak in his Composition 'Oankar' in Ramkali Rag, states, "kam, karodh kaya ko galay." - Sexual Indulgence and Anger waste away the body. Since the fetal existence is identical to the state of death, the act of being killed is associated with the sexual intercourse., which implies a return to the womb. Sea, lakes, rivers, streams, ponds, etc. signify the womb and the process of birth. The killing of Madh and Kitab, therefore, means that they were engaged in the sexual intercourse and the sexual substance fell into the womb of Kitab. (tin ko kal bahor badh kara, tin ko maidh samandar mein para). The glue like oily sexual substance remained floating in the womb and impregnated Kitab, who gave birth to the off-springs. The human race began to be called the progeny of Madh, as Medni. Word ‘Medni’ in Scriptures means the Whole of Human Race. The Guru thus preaches the Patriarchal System of Society, against the Matriarchal System of unwedded women bearing children, which is unethical. The lineage of all must be from the paternal side of the family, which is based on Ethical Principles and disciplined living. At the end the Guru declares that those who would lead a life based on Morality would be honored, and those who would repudiate Morality, would be called the accursed persons.
    The concluding Dictum of the Guru in the Myth exhorting people to lead a moral life is the key to the understanding of this Myth. It is surprising that we have not bothered to know the relation of the concluding Dictum to the foregoing text of the Composition. It is this type of our not going deep into the Compositions of the Gurus, has caused confusion in us. We thus wrongly interpret the Gurus' Compositions, and come to the conclusion that these are not theirs.

    And the purpose of life?

    Self realisation this theme runs throughout the whole of sri guru granth sahib ji open any page and i swear it will say something about self-realisation.


    ”By the way if you believe that the Quran is not the word of God! Produce your proof if you are truthful!”

    Yes i can the koran says that it was the word of an angel called gabrielle and guru granth sahib tells us plenty about koran you will have to do research yourself:

    1. Page4 Line 18 Raag Jap: Guru Nanak Dev

    vKqu n pwieE kwdIAw ij ilKin lyKu kurwxu ]
    vakhath n paaeiou kaadheeaa j likhan laekh kuraan ||
    That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.
    2. Page24 Line 11 Raag Sriraag: Guru Nanak Dev

    pMj vKq invwj gujwrih pVih kqyb kurwxw ]
    panj vakhath nivaaj gujaarehi parrehi kathaeb kuraanaa ||
    You may chant your prayers five times each day; you may read the Bible and the Koran.
    3. Page140 Line 18 Raag Maajh: Guru Nanak Dev

    imhr msIiq isdku muslw hku hlwlu kurwxu ]
    mihar maseeth sidhak musalaa hak halaal kuraan ||
    Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran.
    4. Page329 Line 12 Raag Gaurhee: Saint Kabir

    khq kbIr Bly Asvwrw ] byd kqyb qy rhih inrwrw ]3]31]
    kehath kabeer bhalae asavaaraa || baedh kathaeb thae rehehi niraaraa ||3||31||
    Says Kabeer, those who remain detached from the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible are the best riders. ||3||31||
    5. Page397 Line 7 Raag Aasaa: Guru Arjan Dev

    byd kqyb sMswr hBw hUM bwhrw ]
    baedh kathaeb sansaar habhaa hoon baaharaa ||
    He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible.
    6. Page518 Line 7 Raag Goojree: Guru Arjan Dev

    quDu [email protected] byd kqybw sxu KVy ]
    thudhh dhhiaaeinih baedh kathaebaa san kharrae ||
    The followers of the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran, standing at Your Door, meditate on You.
    7. Page722 Line 19 Raag Tilang: Guru Nanak Dev

    muslmwnIAw pVih kqybw kst mih krih Kudwie vy lwlo ]
    musalamaaneeaa parrehi kathaebaa kasatt mehi karehi khudhaae vae laalo ||
    The Muslim women read the Koran, and in their misery, they call upon God, O Lalo.
    8. Page885 Line 10 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Arjan Dev

    koeI pVY byd koeI kqyb ]
    koee parrai baedh koee kathaeb ||
    Some read the Vedas, and some the Koran.
    9. Page897 Line 3 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Arjan Dev

    kurwn kqyb qy pwku ]3]
    kuraan kathaeb thae paak ||3||
    more sacred than the Koran and the Bible. ||3||
    10. Page903 Line 4 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Nanak Dev

    kil prvwxu kqyb kurwxu ]
    kal paravaan kathaeb kuraan ||
    In Kali Yuga, the Koran and the Bible have become famous.
    11. Page1036 Line 5 Raag Maaroo: Guru Nanak Dev

    byd kqyb n isMimRiq swsq ]
    baedh kathaeb n sinmrith saasath ||
    There were no Vedas, Korans or Bibles, no Simritees or Shaastras.
    12. Page1083 Line 17 Raag Maaroo: Guru Arjan Dev

    kurwxu kqyb idl mwih kmwhI ]
    kuraan kathaeb dhil maahi kamaahee ||
    Practice within your heart the teachings of the Koran and the Bible;
    13. Page1193 Line 16 Raag Basant: Saint Kabir

    isMimRiq maulI isau kqyb ]2]
    sinmrith moulee sio kathaeb ||2||
    The Simritees blossom forth, along with the Koran and the Bible. ||2||
    14. Page1290 Line 4 Raag Malaar: Guru Nanak Dev

    mwsu purwxI mwsu kqybNØI chu juig mwsu kmwxw ]
    maas puraanee maas kathaebanaee chahu jug maas kamaanaa ||
    Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.
    15. Page1350 Line 5 Raag Parbhaatee: Saint Kabir

    byd kqyb khhu mq JUTy JUTw jo n ibcwrY ]
    baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||
    Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

    Sat sri akal Moss Sahib Ji,

    “ISDhillon Kabir was a muslim”

    oh really have look and judge for yourself the denial is unbelievable with you people:


    ਆਸਾ ॥
    आसा ॥
    aasaa.
    Aasaa:
    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਕਿਨਿ ਏਹ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਈ ॥
    हिंदू तुरक कहा ते आए किनि एह राह चलाई ॥
    hindoo turak kahaa tay aa-ay kin ayh raah chalaa-ee.
    Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths?
    ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਕਵਾਦੇ ਭਿਸਤ ਦੋਜਕ ਕਿਨਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
    दिल महि सोचि बिचारि कवादे भिसत दोजक किनि पाई ॥१॥
    dil meh soch bichaar kavaaday bhisat dojak kin paa-ee. ||1||
    Think of this, and contemplate it within your mind, O men of evil intentions. Who will go to heaven and hell? ||1||
    ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥
    काजी तै कवन कतेब बखानी ॥
    kaajee tai kavan katayb bakhaanee.
    O Qazi, which book have you read?
    ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    पड़्हत गुनत ऐसे सभ मारे किनहूं खबरि न जानी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    parhHat gunat aisay sabh maaray kinhooN khabar na jaanee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
    Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause||
    ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥
    सकति सनेहु करि सुंनति करीऐ मै न बदउगा भाई ॥
    sakat sanayhu kar sunat karee-ai mai na bad-ugaa bhaa-ee.
    Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.
    ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
    जउ रे खुदाइ मोहि तुरकु करैगा आपन ही कटि जाई ॥२॥
    ja-o ray khudaa-ay mohi turak karaigaa aapan hee kat jaa-ee. ||2||
    If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||
    ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
    सुंनति कीए तुरकु जे होइगा अउरत का किआ करीऐ ॥
    sunat kee-ay turak jay ho-igaa a-urat kaa ki-aa karee-ai.
    If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?
    ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥
    अरध सरीरी नारि न छोडै ता ते हिंदू ही रहीऐ ॥३॥
    araDh sareeree naar na chhodai taa tay hindoo hee rahee-ai. ||3||
    She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||
    ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
    छाडि कतेब रामु भजु बउरे जुलम करत है भारी ॥
    chhaad katayb raam bhaj ba-uray julam karat hai bhaaree.
    Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.
    ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥
    कबीरै पकरी टेक राम की तुरक रहे पचिहारी ॥४॥८॥
    kabeerai pakree tayk raam kee turak rahay pachihaaree. ||4||8||
    Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. ||4||8||


    “God told Gabriel AS, and the message was conveyed to Muhammed PBUH, the same message got through. God conveyed the messages in different kinds of way, for example he spoke to Moses PBUH.”

    yes but this is still indirect revelation all you have done is supported my assertion i dont know how to argue with you when you agree with me.

    “Anyway, why was the Guru Granth sahib only compiled after the 4th or 5th Guru, this supplies evidence that the other so called Gurus never believed in "Sikhism" and that it was craeted by their followers because they were so impressed by nanaks way of life and character “

    silly boy, all thr gurus are the same spirit only the flesh changes have look:




    6 Raamkalee Balvand and Sata

    gur AMgd dI dohI iPrI scu krqY bMiD bhwlI ]
    Guru Angad was proclaimed, and the True Creator confirmed it.
    gur angadh dhee dhohee firee sach karathai bandhh behaalee ||
    7 Raamkalee Balvand and Sata

    nwnku kwieAw pltu kir mil qKqu bYTw sY fwlI ]
    Nanak merely changed his body; He still sits on the throne, with hundreds of branches reaching out.
    naanak kaaeiaa palatt kar mal thakhath baithaa sai ddaalee ||


    now after discussing with the few who have asked questions it is quite apparent that someone is teaching you these allegations you have not gone yourselves to a sikh scholar you have tried to pick holes but unfortunately you will make no headway in your endeavours if you would like to learn sikh doctrine then please read the following article otherwise you will always be confounded:

    http://www.punjabheritage.com/doctrine.html

    Happy reading and to the moderator if you edit this message then you are scared of the truth i have only answered the questions asked of me no more no less.

    Thanks,

    ISDhillon

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    Re: Sikhism

    In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

    By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
    Verily Man is in loss,
    Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


    Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

    Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

    Greetings ISDhillion

    Inshiallah first of all I would like to address your response to my question

    ”By the way if you believe that the Quran is not the word of God! Produce your proof if you are truthful!”

    Your Response was

    “Yes i can the Koran says that it was the word of an angel called Gabrielle”

    Sorry you’re wrong, I said produce your proof, what you presented to me wasn’t proof. Show me the verse and the chapter that says the Quran is the word of Gabrielle.

    But to save you time there is no such verse that says the Quran is the word of Gabrielle.

    On the contrary there are many verses in the Quran which clearly says that it’s the word of Allah

    “And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah”


    Holy Quran (10:37)

    (Alif Lam Mim). The revelation of the Book (this Qur'an) in which there is no doubt, is from the Lord of all that exists)

    Holy Quran (32:1-2).

    “Verily, it is we who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’aan) and surely, we will guard it (from corruption)”

    Holy Quran 15:9

    Allah, may He be exalted, stated that He is the One who revealed the Quran, and He is protecting it from being changed or altered.

    It is further revealed if it was from any body else apart from God it would have had many contradictions-

    Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

    An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #82

    However, this Qur'an is free of shortcomings, and therefore, it is from Allah

    The Qur'an has a miraculous nature that cannot be imitated. No one can produce anything similar to the Qur'an, nor ten Surahs or even one Surah like it. The eloquence, clarity, precision and grace of the Qur'an cannot be but from Allah. The great and abundant principles and meanings within the Qur'an -- which are of great benefit in this world and for the Hereafter -- cannot be but from Allah. There is nothing like His High Self and Attributes or like His sayings and actions. Therefore His Words are not like the words of His creatures.

    If he chose to reveal his words to Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) through the angel Jibreel, in what way does that make it Jibreels words and his will?

    If I asked you go to your friends and family and recite the below words

    “I bear witness that their in no deity worthy of worship except Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger”

    Would you say it was your words or mine!

    A Post man delivering letter from me to you, is the letter the post mans words or mine- who is the source of the message me or the postman?

    My grandmother cannot read very clearly, her eyesight in not what it used to be, so when a letter arrives from back home from her sister, I read it out to her, is it my words that I am reading or her sisters?, you get the picture!

    Similarly if God commanded his angel Gabriel to convey the message to Muhammad, in what way does that make Jib -reel (peace be upon him) the source of the message?

    If God revealed his word to Muhammad (PBUH) directly you would have said that the Quran is Muhammad (PBUH)words not Gods!


    Surely, there is not a miracle or evidence more eloquent or effective on the heart and mind than this Qur'an. Had Allah revealed it to a mountain, you would see the mountain shake and humbled from fear of Allah. The Sahih recorded that the Messenger of Allah said,

    Every Prophet was given (a miracle) the type of which would make (some) people believe. What I was given, however, is a revelation from Allah to me, and I hope that I will have the most following among them (Prophets) on the Day of Resurrection.) This Hadith indicates that every Prophet's miracle disappeared upon his death, but this Qur'an will remain as evidence for all times. Verily, the miracle of the Qur'an will never end, nor will it become old the more it is read, nor will scholars ever have enough of it. The Qur'an is serious and is not meant for jest; any tyrant that abandons it, Allah will destroy him; he who seeks guidance in other than the Qur'an, then Allah will misguide him.

    Now moving onto the rest of the Reponses inshiallah!

    Sikhsm- message for the whole of mankind-

    You said

    “let me also remind you that the various bhagats in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib were not sikhs yet they found god and all belonged to their respective faiths first this clearly shows that it is the love of god that it primary- sikhism took the the torch furhter and revealed the path of naam and atam marg. All religions have specific customs and literature and teachings these teachings help inculcate a love in the seeker to fall in love with god, when a person from another faith falls in love with god they transcend the teachings of their faith by repeating the name of god night and day with devotion and the lord answers their call and they acheive union”

    If you love God you will obey his command, pursue what he approves and refrain from what he forbids,

    In the Quran God revealed

    “They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son
    Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
    At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
    That they should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious.
    For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son


    Holy Quran (19:88-91)”

    Now tell me in what way are the Christians showing their love to God?

    Now the Christians will consider that Christianity is the true religion, they will ask in what way is a Muslim, Hindus etc showing his love to God when he denies that Jesus was crucified for the sins of mankind-

    If there is only one God- then how can Christian and Muslims and Hindus with their mutually contradictory beliefs love god at the same time?

    “how do i know that different members of different faiths can transcend the teachings of their respective faiths?

    because we have proof in our religion, farid was muslim/sufi, namdev was hindu bhagat etc etc they all did namaz etc or aarti but it was only after they inculcated a love for the divine that they repeated the name and therefore entered naam marg which is what sikhi believes in therefore that is the sentiment behind all faiths being a path to god it has nothing to do with pluralism or contradiction.”


    You’ve forwarded examples of people entering naam marg, but you have not, proved to me, that this was the right thing to do and it pleased god! Can you proof to me Farid, namdev etc are in heaven, or the alternative in your religion Sikhsm?

    “please dont get offended but i do believe that my faith does have unique qualities and that is because as i said before the truth is realised through time and the truth is that it is the love of god which is primary religion is secondary as per sikh teachings.”

    No offence taken!

    What happens to people who don’t follow your religion?

    You Said

    “My Answer: The same is for all people even for sikhs and that is rebirth you do not have to follow sikhism but you do have to follow naam marg which is revealed by sikhism and not by any other religion.”

    Now please correct me if I have misinterpreted your above statement-

    You are saying that who ever does not follow naam marg will be reborn?
    If Naam marg was revealed by the Sikhsm, and sikhsm was introduced by Guru Nanak– it can be concluded that mankind before the advent of Sikhism and naam marg will be reborn!

    Now is being re-born a punishment?, if it is then do you feel its fair for God to punish some one without revealing his divine will?

    If its not punishment- then I presume it’s a reward- which does not make sense-

    Why reward some one who does not follow naam marg-
    I presume from these two options you will admit it’s a punishment!


    If being reborn is a form of punishment for not following naam marg- then how do you know you have been punished?, do you still have memories from you past life?- if not, then how do you know if you are in a worse state now than you were in a previous life, if you have no recollection of your previous life- you have nothing to compare it to!

    Just say some on who was healthy in his previous life was reborn in a state of blindness because he did not follow naam marg-
    As he would not have any recollection of his previous life, how does he know it was punishment, as far as his concerned it could be reward for his goodness, he could have been deaf dumb and blind in his previous life-
    Matter of fact how does he know he was reborn? How long does this loop go on for-?

    Just like you cannot distinguish what is bad without good, or darkness without light,, or pain if there wasn’t relieve, or sorrow if there wasn’t happiness,then how can you know if you’re being punished, if you have no recollection of your previous life?

    Thinking about this whole idea of re-birth, which you say applies to the whole of mankind, what about babies who die, what happens to them? I mean they have no idea of naam marg.

    Now flipping to the other side of the coin, if you do follow naam marg, what happens to you after you die- are you reborn again as well?


    And the purpose of life?

    “Self realisation this theme runs throughout the whole of sri guru granth sahib ji open any page and i swear it will say something about self-realisation.”

    So your saying the purpose of life is to realise yourself, if you would be kind enough to expound on this further- what is it about our self that we are seeking? How do we know we have not realised it already?

    How about, the purpose of life is to worship the one who created you; God.

    What is your belief in the origin of Life?

    You Said

    “My belief is simialr to big bang theory but I can only say what the guru says:

    Creation and Gurmat
    "Kita pasao eko kavao" Guru Nanak in JAP JI (Pauri 13)
    Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji teaches - "In the beginning God was all alone and there was no one beside Him”.


    (We also believe God was always there, and he doesn’t have a beginning)

    "From the Absolute Lord came forth moon, sun and the firmament. His Light is spread in all the three worlds (which is creative) ...... " (Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Rag Maru, Sohile, page 1037, Sri Guru Granth Sahib).
    "The Immaculate Lord, Who created His Own self, “

    “In Asa Di Var, Pauri 1, page 463 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji states: "He, the Lord, of Himself, created Himself,”


    This causes problems- anything that was created did not existed prior to his creation, is your scripture saying God never existed at some point?
    This contradicts with “"In the beginning God was all alone and there was no one beside Him.

    If God existed then why need the need to create him self?-
    Unless he created another version of himself, which contradicts the concept of one god, or he created a part of himself, which tells me that he wasn’t 100% to start of with!

    “The Creation (Big Bang) theory of Science became popular in the 1960's while Guru Nanak explained the creation in the 1500's. “


    But where does it mention about the Big Bang? I’ve read the entire paragraph, and there is nothing indicating about the big bang, all you have said is God created everything, water, wind, etc.

    And even if it did mention about the big bang, the Quran revealed it in more detail before Guru Nanak explained it in the 1500! Please don’t get offended but, its like saying Newton discovered F=ma, then some one else comes along and writes down F=ma. When something is already been discovered or said and then after several years later some one else repeats it, its no miracle.

    Now lets inshiallah proceed, and address what the Holy Quran (which was revealed 1400 years ago) has to say about the big bang.

    Scientist recently discovered that one point in time the universe was nothing but a cloud of smoke. This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientist now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that smoke.

    And Allah says in the Quran

    “Then He turned to the heaven (universe) when it was smoke..”

    Holy Quran (41:11)

    Scientist recently discovered that the earth and the universe came from the same original. They were one connected entity, and out of the homogeneous gas they separated.

    Allah may he be exalted says..

    “have not the disbeliever’s known that the heavens (galaxy, earth, stars sun etc) and the earth where one connected entity before we clove them asunder?...”

    Holy Quran (21:30)

    From this verse a famous none muslim scientist called Dr. Alfred Kroner who is one of the worlds renowned Geologist said “..it is impossible for the Quran to have known that the earth and the heavens where one connected entity 1400 years ago”

    In the Quran, which was revealed 14 centuries ago at a time when science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described like this:

    “And it is We Who have constructed the heaven (universe) with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.”

    Holy Quran (surat adh-Dhariyat: 47)

    And this is the very conclusion that science has reached today.

    And there are thousands more that talk about scientific facts, embryology, Geology, Zoology, mathematics, astronomy etc.


    Inshiallah I will address the rest of your response to the origin of life later!

    Looking forward to hearing your replies, and thanking you for sharing your religion with me, I hope you don’t mind me asking all this questions

    Kind regards

    Qurban

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    Re: Sikhism

    Satsriakal Quarban Ji,

    In islam the historical truth claim was that the angel Gabrielle relayed the message of allah to your prophet are you denying this and all those statements from the quoran are from angel Gabrielle you have not provided any proof to the contrary.

    “If you love God you will obey his command, pursue what he approves and refrain from what he forbids”

    this is true and in Sikhism gurbani is god it is the word which is god because this is the self-expression of the divine lord. Your religion did not come from god it came from an angel in Sikhism we call this farishta ka din not allahs din.

    “Now tell me in what way are the Christians showing their love to God?”

    nor the Christians nor the muslims are showing their love today because you have not realised the message of god which was to achieve union if a religion caters for the conditions of man the the seeker no longer preaches because they are satiaited with the truth but both the muslims and the Christians are not satisfied and this is what gives birth to proselytization and suffering and this is the reason why Sikhism came onto the scene. The basic category of the the bible is hope that you live in the hope that what is written is true and you will have salvation. The basic category of the Koran is morality that those who will live a moral life will go to paradise, none of these scriptures revealed the path of naam and that is why spirituality ,both in Sufism and in countless Christian circles are more appealing because there is more to religion than observance of pointless rituals. Unfortunately your verses from the qoran and your assertions about precision of quoran are concocted proof which is aimed at stifling the essence of your religion but I will not be taken in by it. In sri guru granth sahib ji the seeker has a direct link with god when we read the verses the same is not true for any other scripture on earth why? – because it is the only word of god on earth.

    “You’ve forwarded examples of people entering naam marg, but you have not, proved to me, that this was the right thing to do and it pleased god! Can you proof to me Farid, namdev etc are in heaven, or the alternative in your religion Sikhsm?”

    the same can be said about every person who ever lived on this earth their will be no recorded evidence on video so I will have to admit defeat on this point but by all means provide me the proof that you people are living in the lap of luxury in heaven I cant wait to see if your proof is quotes from Koran you can forget it as I could do the same I need to know Islamic doctrine and I have as yet not come across one Islamic scholar who can relay Islamic doctrine without using the Koran, doctrine comes from learning history with respect to your faith it is not inferred by interpreting verses in the Koran cos we can all do that. As for pleasing god have a read of sri guru granth sahib ji I too could shovel a surplus of quotes from my scripture but ultimately we will both be none the wiser this is why I posted the essay on the sikh doctrine did you read this and if so what have you learned about our doctrine?

    “No offence taken!”

    im pleased

    “If Naam marg was revealed by the Sikhsm, and sikhsm was introduced by Guru Nanak– it can be concluded that mankind before the advent of Sikhism and naam marg will be reborn!”

    no the path of naam was practised by all saints through out the ages naam is the unstruck melody which pervades the universe it has always existed its just Sikhism made naam marg the purpose of life, there have been plenty before who were also attuned to the naam but the guru made this path easy that’s why you do not have to be a sikh but make no mistake without naam you will be reborn. There is no such thing as sin so therefore rebirth is not a punishment just part and parcel of gods creation.

    “if it is then do you feel its fair for God to punish some one without revealing his divine will?

    If its not punishment- then I presume it’s a reward- which does not make sense-

    Why reward some one who does not follow naam marg-
    I presume from these two options you will admit it’s a punishment”

    I believe my above comments disqualify these tactical statements. Again you have not read the essay I provided a lot of the questions would have been answered, you see in Sikhism we follow a post modern paradigm we do not believe that god made man in the image of himself, we belive god made creation in the image of the souls purpose this is why all rivers lead to the sea and why there are so many different life forms. Divine essence therefore does not have a mind it is not reasonable or rational so therefore applying reason to practicing Sikhism is a misnomer, divine essence only has the qualities laid out in the mool mantar, islam does not believe that god has a mind either but you have accepted reason as a common frame of reference because we live in an age where science was seen as the driving force of progress, but spirit is the impasse beyond which science can no longer venture and hey presto Sikhism is the tool for the modern age to tap into the naam potential we pick up where science has halted. I do hope you will understand why common sense, contradiction canot be applied to god these ideas have been born through evangelical apologetics, but do ask more and I can clarify further I can even solve the law of non-contradiction riddle.

    You have then asked about not knowing why you are suffering etc, in all religions you are asked to accept the will of god suffering is a part of his will when guru arjan dev ji was executed he did not stop his suffering infact he was so imbued with naam that he referred to the hot sand being pourn onto his head a rose petals however compare this with Christ who cried when the nails went through his palms. You have also misunderstood the rebirth and karma, in Sikhism karma works not by matching your every good and bad but by bringing you closer to the naam or further from the naam depending upon your character, we do not need a book to tell us what is good and bad our concscious can tell us that, rules are only there to enable discipline, in Sikhism rules are put in to place so that you can still your body and mind and work on your soul. And let me just say that one who accepts the will of god like myself who has been through plenty in life does not think twice about questioning god because the power of naam destroys all wanderings of the feable mind, reason is for empty faiths which cannot halt the tiresome mind.

    “what is it about our self that we are seeking? How do we know we have not realised it already?”

    the divine essence within is your mool, guru ji says “maan tu jot swaroop hai apna mool pachaan” mind you are fashioned by the divine now realise your inspiration, when people attune the soul to naam then we achaive joti jot this is a pont by which we recognise a oneness In spirit with the lord and this is our purpose if you want quotes I will be happy to provide them, how do you know? At this moment in time you are living in a dream like state when you are realised then you are not of this material existence you most definitely will know, coincidentally science is also moving towards this approach of maya and the illusion with the advent of the holographic scientific paradigm which was discussed by Michael Talbot.

    “How about, the purpose of life is to worship the one who created you; God.”

    Worship is not important we bow to god so that we learn humility and fight the ego which is one of the 5 demons but the divine essence exists within all beings it is our only destiny.

    “This causes problems- anything that was created did not existed prior to his creation, is your scripture saying God never existed at some point?”

    no because the creation is a reflection of god and god exists within the whole of creation, naam is a form of god so to is the gurbani, again you do not understand that contradiction is gods creation, also divine essence is not reasonable because rationale is something us humans choose, we do not believe in an intelligent design we only believe in a divine design. We have our own premises and believe our doctrine to be sovereign you need a reason because you look for one when you have the truth your questions will stop.

    “Unless he created another version of himself, which contradicts the concept of one god, or he created a part of himself, which tells me that he wasn’t 100% to start of with!”

    no it doesn’t at all, divine essence In Sikhism is not a wobbly blob or an old man with a beard who looks like santa, in Sikhism god is a substance with properties: oneness, creative, self-existent, unborn, formless, truth, no fear, no hatred. Divine essence doesn not follow the laws of science you cannot know the nature of your lord through the mind if you could then Sikhism would not have revealed the way of naam.

    “But where does it mention about the Big Bang? I’ve read the entire paragraph, and there is nothing indicating about the big bang, all you have said is God created everything, water, wind, etc.”

    when you read with intention then you find your criticism, it says that all sprang forth from the one word which was instantaneous and not a period of days it does not have to mention big bang even scientistis have agreed that the guru granth sahib ji does show an accurate reflection of big bang theory and finally your claim that guru nanak come along later and repeats what the quoran has said is another misnomer because the jews and Christians and muslims all said their was one god so why the need for the repetition all your arguments could not only be used with islam but also of non-religious entities such why feminism comes to the east when it started in the west if this is the logic with which you prove your faith then you are welcome to it it is of no consequence to me whatsoever I have an understanding of sikh doctrine at a scholarary level I therefore find it incredibly hard to refute large chunks of questions and this is why I have left a lot of your questions unanswered would it be possible if you can when responding put the questions in number format I can then tackle them one by one.

    I look forward to hearing from you.

    Gurfateh,

    ISDhillon

  22. #57
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    Re: Sikhism

    In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

    By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
    Verily Man is in loss,
    Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


    Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

    Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

    Hello ISDhillion!

    You Said

    In Islam the historical truth claim was that the angel Gabrielle relayed the message of allah to your prophet are you denying this and all those statements from the Quran are from angel Gabrielle you have not provided any proof to the contrary.

    I can see this getting a bit confusing- let’s start from the beginning

    Your first statement in this matter

    ” koran says that it was the word of an angel called Gabrielle

    I challenged you to produce your proof, by finding a single verse where the “Koran Says” that is the word of Angel Gabriel

    Have you found it yet?

    Its quite painless to surmise that your finding it difficult to grasp the difference between a messenger and the person who sent the message, even after three simple analogies, which included my much admired postman analogy!

    Or are you?

    The very first statement from your latest post, does show some signs that you have finally cracked it? If not then in this state of confusion you are contradicting yourself?

    Let me show –

    Your statements that-


    ” koran says that it was the word of an angel called Gabrielle”
    “Your religion did not come from god it came from an angel”


    But in your very first statement you contradict the two above claims!

    “In islam the historical truth claim was that the angel Gabrielle relayed the message of allah to your prophet”

    Yes! Angel Gabriel (PBUH) was just relaying the message, that’s all!

    Let me give two more analogies-


    If A relays a message from B to C- in what way does that make A the source of the message, which is what you were implying at the beginning when you said Gabriel’s (PBUH) message!

    If i write a computer application using Visual Basic (an application development tool)
    I write the codes for an application which will make all the employees work easier in an company called earth- and I send the codes down to that company through my servant- in what ways does that make my servant the architect of the application-

    If you still fail to see the difference between a messenger and the person that sent the message let me know, I have some more analogies!

    Unfortunately I am running out of time, but inshiallah address the rest of your response later!


    By the way

    You Said

    “you have not provided any proof to the contrary”

    I thought I had,

    (Alif Lam Mim). The revelation of the Book (this Qur'an) in which there is no doubt, is from the Lord of all that exists

    Holy Quran (32:1-2).

    More Later inshiallah

    Kind Regards

    Qurban

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    Re: Sikhism

    Quarban Ji,

    with respect your postman messenger analogy is incompatible with sikh doctrine because man has an unbroken lineage with his creator the bhagat becomes the guru, then why would we ever need a post man in between, whther or not it is or is not written in the koran is besides the point the simple fact is that you yourself are in agreeance with the nature of your revelation ie, indirect. Secondly the message you bring is an opinion of god, my guru brings god in his words this diference is what sets apart direct and indirect revelation this is why the guru granth sahib ji is reverred cos the word is god let me add here a quote from the essay i referred you to earlier so you may become wiser to my assertions:

    "the Sikh conception of the Word is qualitatively different from the Christian view. In Sikh thought, the Spirit, besides becoming immanent in the societal category Khalsa, also, becomes determinate in the Word (bani) which, as such, is elevated and revered as the eternal 'living' Guru in the form of Sri Guru Granth. Christian thought holds that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. " The Word became 'flesh', that is, incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ who, as such, is the focal point of the faith and worship and not the Bible, the Scripture. That is why the Western studies of the Sikh Scripture are so off the tangent, for the concept of the Divine spirit becoming determinate in the Word (bani) is incomprehensible in the Christian perspective in which the process is reversed : The Word becoming embodied in the person of Jesus Christ"

    I hope you understand the difference in our religious scriptures and the sovereignity of the sikh doctrine.

    ISDhillon

  24. #59
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    Re: Sikhism

    In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

    By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
    Verily Man is in loss,
    Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


    Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

    Hi ISdhillion!

    After the third time of asking, you have yet to produce a proof to back up your claim that the “Koran Says that it was the word of angel Gabriel!”

    You are still unable to intelligently explain how the Quran is not Gods word!

    any way I will address this and your previous post later in great detail, I have already seen Major flaws in it!

    later inshiallah but as its 12:44 am I have got work tomorrow-

    but before I go I just wanted to say that due to other commitments not to mention the high magnitude of information being exchanged between me and you , you might experience delays in my responses- But inshiallah they will be addressed-

    My aim will be to address any questions that you raise and compile a response to the answers your provide to my questions by Monday or Tuesday of each Week-

    I understand that sometimes when too many questions are raised; it is a good idea to number them I apologise for not doing so, but next time inshiallah I will,

    I would like to thank you in advance for your patience and willingness to share your religion with me!

    Before I go I would be grateful if you could provide answers to the following list of questions, it probably has been answered in your post- but If you could be kind enough to provide short, clear and concise answers-so that there is no room for doubt-

    7- Is the Adi Granth your holy scripture (aka sri Guru Granth Sahbb)
    8- Is it the word of God
    9- How was it revealed, and who was it revealed to
    10- is “Asa Di Var Pauri 1, Page 463 in Sri Guru Granth Sahib a divine revelation from God
    11- is Dasam granth a chapter in a book, if so which book, is it part of your Holy scripture, i.e. was it revealed by god
    12- is Bachitar Natak a chapter in a book, if so which book, is it part of your holy scripture i.e. was it revealed by god

    Kind Regards
    Qurban

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  26. #60
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    Re: Sikhism

    Thats starnge i could of sworn that i numbered them 1-2-3... it came out as 7-8-9-

    any way the list of questions again are

    1 - Is the Adi Granth your holy scripture (aka sri Guru Granth Sahbb)
    2 - Is it the word of God
    3- How was it revealed, and who was it revealed to
    4- is “Asa Di Var Pauri 1, Page 463 in Sri Guru Granth Sahib a divine revelation from God
    5- is Dasam granth a chapter in a book, if so which book, is it part of your Holy scripture, i.e. was it revealed by god
    6- is Bachitar Natak a chapter in a book, if so which book, is it part of your holy scripture i.e. was it revealed by god

    where ever possible please provide yes no answers, if not possible, a short clear answers please, bearing in mind i am not a scholar in your relgion!

    Kind Regards

    Qurban


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