That isn't my point. What I'm telling you is that sometimes, a persons career does not allow them to just grow a long beard and not cut their hair. When that happens, especially to a convert, then there can be a negative effect of either "I'm not Sikh enough" or getting flak from one's brothers and sisters.
Like Heera is saying, a person is not any less Sikh, if he's not adopting the 5KS (Mona Sikhs exist and they are called 'Sehajdhari' Those that take small steps, which lead to being the Baptised Sikh. The Khalsa (Pure) roop is what the goal is. But you have to perfect yourself before getting there.
The Turban was not allowedin many places, ikhs for the right to wear it.
Kirpans were not allowed to be carried, Sikhs fought to wear them.
It's like most things mate, you have to fight for things you believe in. Nothing is an obstacle if you're tenacious! kay:
Last edited by AvarAllahNoor; 02-14-2008 at 12:55 PM.
Ėk Gusā Alhu Mėrā
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.
Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Mahraaj Ji!
Kal Meh Bėḏ Atharbaṇ Hū Nā Kẖuḏā Alhu Bẖa.
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
I'm not an atheist. I'm an agnostic. I don't if God exists or not.
You do realize that people either choose their beliefs or reinforce them when they get older, right?
It varies. I was 16. I wasn't brought up a Sikh, I was into it of my own accord, infact my family were shocked more than anything to find I was 'religious' as I was a very naughty boy (Think of Life Of Brian scene )
.
Last edited by AvarAllahNoor; 02-15-2008 at 11:28 AM.
Ėk Gusā Alhu Mėrā
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.
Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Mahraaj Ji!
Kal Meh Bėḏ Atharbaṇ Hū Nā Kẖuḏā Alhu Bẖa.
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
hope this hasn't been covered already.
islam and christianity believe that god is definitely outside of his creation. a lot of mystics believe otherwise (without being pantheists).
so my question is what do sikhs believe about this?
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
Awpy kwrxu krqw kry isRsit dyKY Awip aupwie ]aapae kaarun kuruthaa kurae srisatt dhaekhai aap oupaae
The Creator Himself created the Creation; He produced the Universe, and He Himself watches over it.
sB eyko ieku vrqdw AlKu n liKAw jwie ]
subh eaeko eik vuruthudhaa alukh n lakhiaa jaae
The One and Only Lord is pervading and permeating all. The Unseen cannot be seen.
Awpy pRBU dieAwlu hY Awpy dyie buJwie ]
aapae prubhoo dhaeiaal hai aapae dhaee bujhaae
God Himself is Merciful; He Himself bestows understanding.
gurmqI sd min visAw sic rhy ilv lwie ]1]
gurumuthee sudh man vasiaa sach rehae liv laae
Through the Guru's Teachings, the True One dwells forever in the mind of those who remain lovingly attached to Him. ||1||
mn myry gur kI mMin lY rjwie ]
mun maerae gur kee munn lai rujaae
O my mind, surrender to the Guru's Will.
mnu qnu sIqlu sBu QIAY nwmu vsY min Awie ]1] rhwau ]
mun thun seethul subh theeai naam vusai man aae
Mind and body are totally cooled and soothed, and the Naam comes to dwell in the mind. ||1||Pause||
ijin kir kwrxu DwirAw soeI swr kryie ]
jin kar kaarun dhaariaa soee saar kuraee
Having created the creation, He supports it and takes care of it.
gur kY sbid pCwxIAY jw Awpy ndir kryie ]
gur kai subadh pushaaneeai jaa aapae nudhar kuraee
The Word of the Guru's Shabad is realized, when He Himself bestows His Glance of Grace.
sy jn sbdy sohxy iqqu scY drbwir ]
sae jun subudhae sohunae thith suchai dhurubaar
Those who are beautifully adorned with the Shabad in the Court of the True Lord
gurmuiK scY sbid rqy Awip myly krqwir ]2]
gurumukh suchai subadh ruthae aap maelae kuruthaar
-those Gurmukhs are attuned to the True Word of the Shabad; the Creator unites them with Himself. ||2||
gurmqI scu slwhxw ijs dw AMqu n pwrwvwru ]
gurumuthee such sulaahunaa jis dhaa anth n paaraavaar
Through the Guru's Teachings, praise the True One, who has no end or limitation.
Git Git Awpy hukim vsY hukmy kry bIcwru ]
ghatt ghatt aapae hukam vusai hukumae kurae beechaar
He dwells in each and every heart, by the Hukam of His Command; by His Hukam, we contemplate Him.
gur sbdI swlwhIAY haumY ivchu Koie ]
gur subudhee saalaaheeai houmai vichuhu khoe
So praise Him through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, and drive out egotism from within.
sw Dn nwvY bwhrI AvgxvMqI roie ]3]
saa dhun naavai baahuree avugunuvunthee roe
That soul-bride who lacks the Lord's Name acts without virtue, and so she grieves. ||3||
scu slwhI sic lgw scY nwie iqRpiq hoie ]
such sulaahee sach lugaa suchai naae thripath hoe
Praising the True One, attached to the True One, I am satisfied with the True Name.
gux vIcwrI gux sMgRhw Avgux kFw Doie ]
gun veechaaree gun sungrehaa avugun kutaa dhoe
Contemplating His Virtues, I accumulate virtue and merit; I wash myself clean of demerits.
Awpy myil imlwiedw iPir vyCoVw n hoie ]
aapae mael milaaeidhaa fir vaeshorraa n hoe
He Himself unites us in His Union; there is no more separation.
nwnk guru swlwhI Awpxw ijdU pweI pRBu soie ]4]27]60]
naanuk gur saalaahee aapunaa jidhoo paaee prubh soe
O Nanak, I sing the Praises of my Guru; through Him, I find that God. ||4||27||60||
Last edited by Heera Singh; 02-27-2008 at 04:06 AM.
DMn gurU nwnk <> DMn gurU nwnk <> DMn gurU nwnk <> DMn gurU nwnk
Avil Alh nUru aupwieAw kudriq ky sB bMdy ]
aval aleh noor oupaaeiaa kudhurath kae subh bundhae
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
eyk nUr qy sBu jgu aupijAw kaun Bly ko mMdy ]1]
eaek noor thae subh jug oupajiaa koun bhulae ko mundhae
From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||
logw Brim n BUlhu BweI ]
logaa bhuram n bhooluhu bhaaee
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.
Kwilku Klk Klk mih Kwilku pUir rihE sRb TWeI ]1] rhwau ]
khaalik khuluk khuluk mehi khaalik poor rehiou srub thaaee
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||
mwtI eyk Anyk BWiq kir swjI swjnhwrY ]
maattee eaek anaek bhaath kar saajee saajunehaarai
The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.
nw kCu poc mwtI ky BWfy nw kCu poc kuMBwrY ]2]
naa kush poch maattee kae bhaaddae naa kush poch kunbhaarai
There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||
sB mih scw eyko soeI iqs kw kIAw sBu kCu hoeI ]
subh mehi suchaa eaeko soee this kaa keeaa subh kush hoee
The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.
hukmu pCwnY su eyko jwnY bMdw khIAY soeI ]3]
hukum pushaanai s eaeko jaanai bundhaa keheeai soee
Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||
Alhu AlKu n jweI liKAw guir guVu dInw mITw ]
aluhu alukh n jaaee lakhiaa gur gurr dheenaa meethaa
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.
kih kbIr myrI sMkw nwsI srb inrMjnu fITw ]4]3]
kehi kubeer maeree sunkaa naasee surub nirunjun ddeethaa
Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3||
DMn gurU nwnk <> DMn gurU nwnk <> DMn gurU nwnk <> DMn gurU nwnk
I've been interested in Sikhism for a while (not really an active-interest though, I don't really know that much about it compared to many other religions), it's a shame that it is near impossible to obtain an English copy of the "Guru Granth Sahib" which makes the studying of their foundational sacred text rather unrealistic to consider at this point (the whole thing is around the length of the Hindu Vedas, it is massive). Still it is hard not to find it a fascinating religion, even in the idea of it alone, (me) being a person syncretically both Muslim and Hindu and seeing both Islam and Hinduism often mentioned in the origins of Sikhism but I have no need or desire to convert to any other religions.
Hadeeth narrated by Al-Bazzaar on the authority of Jaabir ra. He said,“‘Umar copied part of the Torah in Arabic, brought it to the Prophet s.a.w, and began to read it to him. As he read, the Prophet’s s.a.w face changed color. One of the men of the Ansaar said, "Woe to you Ibn Al-Khattaab! Can you not see the face of the Messenger of Allaah?’ Thereupon, the Prophet s.a.w, said, ‘Do not ask the People of the Book about anything for they will not guide you when they have gone astray. ) If you listen to them( You will either disbelieve in what is right or believe in what is false. By Allaah, if Moses had been alive today, he would have been obliged to follow me.’”]
Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
Because the Qur’an is the best of speech, they were prohibited to follow anything else. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down to you the Book (the Quran) which is recited to them? Verily, herein is mercy and a reminder (or an admonition) for a people who believe”
[al-‘Ankaboot 29:51].
An-Nasaa’i and others narrated from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) that he saw a page of the Torah in the hand of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allah be pleased with him). He said: “If Moosa were alive, and you were to follow him and leave me, you would go astray.” According to another report: “… he would have no option but to follow me.” According to another version: The face of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) changed when ‘Umar showed that to him, and one of the Ansaar said to him: O son of al-Khattaab, do you not see the face of the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)? ‘Umar said: I am content with Allah as my Lord, Islam is my religion, and Muhammad as my Prophet.
Hence the Sahaabah forbade the study of any book other than the Qur’an.
End quote from Majmoo‘ al-Fataawa(17/41-42)
Hence Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) used to say:
How can you ask the people of the Book about anything, when your Book that was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) is more recent, and you read it pure and not tampered with? And He has told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah and changed it, and they wrote the Book with their own hands, and said that it is from Allah, to purchase with it a little price. Does not the knowledge that has come to you forbid you to ask them about anything? No, by Allah, we have not seen any man among them ask you about that which was revealed to you.
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (7363).
Moreover, focusing on the Torah and Gospel is a distraction from that which will benefit the Muslim with regard to his Hereafter.
Al-Qurtubi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
If the one who reads it – namely the Qur’an – will have a tenfold reward or more for each letter, according to what we mentioned in the introduction to this book, then turning away from it and towards other Books is misguidance and loss, and it is a bad deal and waste of time.
End quote fromal-Jaami‘ li Ahkaam al-Qur’an(16/37 8)
Secondly:
Based on the above, the scholars (may Allah have mercy on them) are of the view that those who study these books – the books of the Jews and Christians – may be divided into two groups:
-1-
The first group is ordinary people, those who have no knowledge and those who are weak in faith. They are not allowed to study these books so that they will not be confused by that which has been introduced into them of falsehood, and so that they will not be distracted by something that is of no benefit.
Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar (may Allah have mercy on him) said:
With regard to this matter, it is important to note that in the case of those who are not well-versed in knowledge and are lacking in faith, it is not permissible for them to read any of those books.
End quote fromFath al-Baari(13/525) https://islamqa.info/en/209007?_e_pi...0%2C7293919621
Your perspective has no basis in Islamic teachings, if you want to disagree, go ahead, but don't act like your opinion has any basis in Islam or that you're a Muslim because you're not.
Your perspective has no basis in Islamic teachings, if you want to disagree, go ahead, but don't act like your opinion has any basis in Islam or that you're a Muslim because you're not.
No I didn't, he did. He literally said he mixes Islam with idolatry.
This thread (and my original post you're talking about) is meant to be about Sikhism, not Hinduism but - what about Hinduism do you think is idolatry?
Trying to gather semantics, rather than vague insinuations based on vague preconceptions of words, would probably greater benefit the discussion.
I worship no deities, only the transcendent singular God. I believe that God is beyond single religions and spiritual traditions but all have some grain of truth to them.
I've studied a lot, I'm familiar with the metaphysics, theology, philosophy, ethics and morals of many other religions, not just Islam.
Call me a heretic but I believe many Hindu prophets are as much as part of the framework of Allah's divine revelations as Moses and Muhammad (alayhi s-salam).
Btw, Hinduism itself is not a uniform religion (unlike many forms of Judaism and Islam itself), Hinduism is really 5/6 separate but related spiritual traditions that have completely different views on the sacred texts they share (the Vedas and Upanishads are shared between a large amount of Hindu traditions). In the really ancient times, they believed that their deities (like Indra for instance, a "god of fire") where real physical gods - but over time began to formulate and practice newer beliefs regarding what their deities actually are. The common view among many Hindu traditions, is that the deities are psychological veils, masks, illusions that the individual uses to really deeply connect to the singular transcendent God. Hindus also have practices very similar to the Five Pillars, very similar - all deep, loving devotion to God.
Difference here is that in Hinduism there is a greater literal connection between our self (atman) and God's absolute (brahman), but I see Allah as an active, intelligent aspect of God (regarding how Allah revealed the Quran) - but samely:
He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him
I'm not in search of any validation to whatever I'm considered (and quite frankly, whatever religion you believe you'll always end up arguing with people), I'm after direct experience of God, revelation.
I worship no deities, only the transcendent singular God. I believe that God is beyond single religions and spiritual traditions but all have some grain of truth to them.
You seem to be Indian as you are familiar with Hinduism and Sikhism rather then some of us who live the west that are more familiar with Christianity, Judaism and post enlightenment atheism. How do reconcile the contradiction of judgement and time coming to end (Abhrhamic) and reincarnation and the eternity of time which Sikhs and Hindus believe in?
How do you reconcile that Hindus allow lower caste members to worship Idols whilst that top caste have different rules like the Brahmans which one could say are monotheist?
are you Pantheist or monotheist?
Ultimately I'm asking whats your method on which religion you take when they all contradict each other?
- - - Updated - - -
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
As'salamu Alaik'um
We need to be blunt with people rather than beating around the bush.
Being wise then Blunt, Bluntness is not good for dawah, but very good at chasing people away.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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