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Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

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    Lightbulb Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective (OP)


    http://islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?ca...sub_cat_id=792
    Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective| Prepared by the Research Committee of IslamToday.net under the supervision of Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî|


    Many Muslims wonder about the theory of biological evolution – the theory that living species on Earth today are descended from others in the past, and that the present diversity of living species we see is a result of descent with modification over the course of numerous generations.

    Muslims also wonder about one of the main processes that evolutionary theory proposes to explain how evolution takes place – the process of natural selection. This is the idea that the individuals within a populations of living organism vary in their individual traits – they are not exactly alike – and that the organisms which are most successful at leaving descendants will pass on their unique traits to the next generation at the expense of the traits possessed by less successful organisms in the population, thereby contributing to a long-term gradual change in the suite of traits found within the population.

    We as Muslims must ask:

    Does the theory of evolution – and likewise the theory of natural selection as a mechanism of evolution – conform to Islamic teachings or conflict with them?

    Is a Muslim allowed to believe in evolution as a scientific theory as long as he or she accepts that Allah is behind it?

    Can a Muslim believe in human evolution? If not, how can we explain the fossils of upright, bipedal, tool-using apes with large brains that have been discovered?

    To start with, we wish to emphasize that our concern here is not with examining the scientific merits of the theory of evolution. What we want to know is what Islamic teachings have to say about the idea. Whether evolution is true or false scientifically is another matter altogether.

    When we look at the sources of Islam – the Qur’ân and Sunnah – we see that, with respect to human beings living on the Earth today, they are all descendants of Adam and Eve.

    Allah also says: “O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you with Allah is the one who is the most God-fearing.” [Sûrah al-Hujûrât:13]

    The Prophet (peace be upon him) identified the "male" mentioned in this verse as being Adam. He said: “Human beings are the children of Adam and Adam was created from Earth. Allah says: ‘O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you with Allah is the one who is the most God-fearing’.” [Sunan al-Tirmidhî (3270)]

    We also see that Allah created Adam directly without the agency of parents.

    Allah says: “The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’ and he was.” [Sûrah Âl `Imrân: 59]

    We also know that Eve was created from Adam without the agency of parents.

    In the Qur’ân, Allah states clearly: “O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 1]

    Therefore, the Qur’ân tells us that Adam and his wife were the father and mother of all human beings living on the Earth today. We know about this by way of direct revelation from Allah.

    The direct creation of Adam (peace be upon him) can neither be confirmed nor denied by science in any way. This is because the creation of Adam (peace be upon him) was a unique and singular historical event. It is a matter of the Unseen and something that science does not have the power to confirm or deny. As a matter of the Unseen, we believe it because Allah informs us about it. We say the same for the miracles mentioned in the Qur’ân. Miraculous events, by their very nature, do not conform to scientific laws and their occurrence can neither be confirmed nor denied by science.

    What about other living things, besides the human beings living on the Earth today? What about plants, animals, fungi, and the like?

    When we turn our attention to this question, we find that the Qur’ân and Sunnah do not tell us much about the flora and fauna that was present on the Earth before or at the time of Adam and Eve’s arrived upon it. The sacred texts also do not tell us how long ago Adam and Eve arrived upon the Earth. Therefore, these are things we cannot ascertain from the sacred texts.

    The only thing that the Qur’ân and Sunnah require us to believe about the living things on Earth today is that Allah created them in whatever manner He decided to do create them.

    Allah says: “Allah is the Creator of all things and over all things He has authority.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 62]

    Indeed, Allah states specifically that He created all life forms: “And We made from water all living things.” [Sûrah al-Anbiyâ’: 30]

    We know that “Allah does what He pleases.” Allah can create His creatures in any manner that He chooses.

    Therefore, with respect to other living things, the Qur’ân and Sunnah neither confirm nor deny the theory of biological evolution or the process referred to as natural selection. The question of evolution remains purely a matter of scientific enquiry. The theory of evolution must stand or fall on its own scientific merits – and that means the physical evidence that either confirms the theory or conflicts with it.

    The role of science is only to observe and describe the patterns that Allah places in His creation. If scientific observation shows a pattern in the evolution of species over time that can be described as natural selection, this is not in itself unbelief. It is only unbelief for a person to think that this evolution took place on its own, and not as a creation of Allah. A Muslim who accepts evolution or natural selection as a valid scientific theory must know that the theory is merely an explanation of one of the many observed patterns in Allah’s creation.

    As for the fossil remains of bipedal apes and the tools and artifacts associated with those remains, their existence poses no problem for Islamic teachings. There is nothing in the Qur’ân and Sunnah that either affirms or denies that upright, brainy, tool using apes ever existed or evolved from other apelike ancestors. Such animals may very well have existed on Earth before Adam’s arrival upon it. All we can draw from the Qur’ân and Sunnah is that even if those animals once existed, they were not the forefathers of Adam (peace be upon him).

    And Allah knows best.
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    Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

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    selam aleykum
    format_quote Originally Posted by ihijazi View Post
    Al-Salam Alaykum,
    Jazak Allah Khayer for your replay. Although you have skipped many of the verses (posters) which when included they all come together to support what we have discovered.
    I'm pretty confident that the ones I skipped were completely neutral in the creationists vs. evolutionists debate.

    I will reply to your e-mail in more details, but today we have a meeting on campus to arrange a presentation of our findings to the university community. I believe it would be more effective to look at one verse (poster) at a time.
    ok, take your time

    For now, can you give me your understanding of poster-3?
    الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ فَاطِرِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ جَاعِلِ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا أُولِي أَجْنِحَةٍ مَّثْنَى وَثُلَاثَ وَرُبَاعَ يَزِيدُ فِي الْخَلْقِ مَا يَشَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ
    Praise be to Allah, Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, Who made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four.
    He increases in the creation whatever He wills. Certainly Allah is capable of all things.
    The Glorious Quran: chapter 35, verse 1 (622 AD)
    Allah increases in the creation whatever He wills
    nothing out of the ordinary, it looks like it could have come straight out of a classical tafsir. In fact I don't see why you've put it there as it has no bearing on your theory. This verse does not imply or suggest your theory is right in any way.
    Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Alsalam Alaykum,

    According to Al-Tabari1, an early Islamic scholar (839 – 923), this increase in creation is not limited to the angels, but applies to all of His creation. He increases whatever He wills in the creation of any of His creatures “وَكَذَلِكَ ذَلِكَ فِي جَمِيع خَلْقه يَزِيد مَا يَشَاء فِي خَلْق مَا شَاءَ مِنْهُ”.
    This increase can include the number of appendages, stature (7:69) or even intelligence.

    Best Regards,

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    <snip>
    Last edited by doorster; 10-21-2008 at 12:05 PM.

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Can we stop using the "gaps in the fossil record" argument in an attempt to discredit evolution please?
    If there was no fossils evolution would still clearly be understandable.

    Secondly, can atheists stop shouting "evidence evidence!" ad nauseum. If religionists were concerned with evidence they wouldn't be religious, they wouldn't have faith.

    Of course, atheists needn't tediously ask for non-existing evidence if religionists didn't insist on trying, in vain, to prove their religion is the 'right one'. Please stop trying to justify your faith with supposed evidence and reason! You didn't lull yourself into your religion with evidence so there’s little point in trying to defend your position of faith-I stress the word faith-with evidence.

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    Selam aleykum

    And what exactly is a "modern" human? I wouldn't call 30000y ago as "modern". Humans back then were different from humans now.

    No, this is wrong. Neanderthalis never co-existed with "modern" humans. Homo Neanderthalis did however co-exist with "Homo Sapiens". However this begs the question. How smart was it of scientists to compare 30000y old genome with modern genome? Of course there are differences, but there are also differences between Homo sapiens 30000y ago, and homo sapiens now. So these differences do not prove that neanderthalis was "something different than human". Detailed study of the skeleton of the remains of the Neandertalensis with modern man show that nothing in the anatomy of the Neaderthalensis such as movement, manipulation, intellect and linguistic capabilities are inferior to that of modern man. Yet they classify it as a separate species simply because of these small differences in genes? That's completely generic and arbitrary! And what kind of evidence for crossbreeding should be found than? It's easy to claim that no evidence has been found , but what evidence did they look for? How do you expect to find evidence of crossbreeding 30000y ago? that's practically impossible. If they found no such evidence that probably tells us more about how hard it is to research what happened in the past rather then give us an indication if they did or didn't crossbreed.
    Alsalam Alaykum,

    Is your reply based on any published scientific evidence? You did not provide any references to what you have stated. What I presented in slide 2 are research results of published scientific papers on mtDNA and nuclear DNA analysis. So please provide your references.


    Best Regards,

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Selam aleykum ihijazi
    First off all, You should say: according to this scholar, or according to that imam, and expect people to accept that on authority, instead say according to this hadith, or according to that Ayat. Even Scholars have to provide source for their tafsir, so what source did Al-Tabari use for that?
    Secondly there's a big difference in saying that this increase could refer to any creature and saying that it does. There's even a bigger difference in claiming that this increase refers to the process of evolution. Again, be careful with tafsir from personal opinion.

    Is your reply based on any published scientific evidence? You did not provide any references to what you have stated.
    Which part of it? you quoted several arguments, you'll have to be more specific about which part you want scientific evidence from.
    What I presented in slide 2 are research results of published scientific papers on mtDNA and nuclear DNA analysis.
    Wrong, what you have provided is not research results, what you have provided are interpretations of research results. What I have shown you is the flaws in your interpretations.

    Hi there there
    Can we stop using the "gaps in the fossil record" argument in an attempt to discredit evolution please?
    No we cannot, it is still a major problem to the theory of evolution, and just asking nicely won't make it go away.
    [quote]If there was no fossils evolution would still clearly be understandable.[/qoute]
    Just because it's understandable doesn't mean it's accurate. That's not the issue.

    Secondly, can atheists stop shouting "evidence evidence!" ad nauseum. If religionists were concerned with evidence they wouldn't be religious, they wouldn't have faith.
    I resent that. Stop making it look as if the issue here were science vs. religion. That's not an accurate representation. Many atheists don't believe in all parts of the evolution theory also! Some parts of the evolution theory simply aren't scientific, and that's a fact that any self-respecting scientist should acknowledge regardless of his personal views.

    Of course, atheists needn't tediously ask for non-existing evidence if religionists didn't insist on trying, in vain, to prove their religion is the 'right one'. Please stop trying to justify your faith with supposed evidence and reason!
    Please stop telling people what to do and stop being a hypocrite. Aren't you doing the exact same thing? Trying to bring some form of enlightenment to people? What makes you so fantastic that it's ok for you to come here and spread the enlightened vision of atheism, but it's not ok for other people to spread their faith? If you don't like it, ignore it, that's all you can do.

    You didn't lull yourself into your religion with evidence so there’s little point in trying to defend your position of faith-I stress the word faith-with evidence.
    You're wrong, there's a huge point. You're just not willing to accept that point.
    Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Check out my website for my conversion story.
    Check out my free e-book if you like reading drama-novels.

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Alsalam Alaykum,

    As Muslims we believe that the Quran is the final revelation from Allah (God) and the greatest miracle given to our Prophet and Messenger Muhammad, Allah’s blessings and peace be upon him (ABPUH). We also believe that Prophet Muhammad (ABPUH) was the final Messenger sent to all mankind and the Quran will continue to be a source of miracles until the end of time. The Glorious Quran consists of 114 chapters (surahs) each containing a varying number of verses (ayat). The meanings and interpretations of many of these verses are either straight forward or well documented in the Sunnah literature. A few verses are classified as allegorical (mutshabhat), and we are forbidden to interpret them, since their meanings are only known to Allah. The remaining verses were left open to the interpretations of the Muslims, and are the source of the Quran’s continuous miracles. Within these verses are words, phrases and meanings related to Allah’s creation in the fields of astronomy, geology, embryology, botany, entomology, archeology, biology, etc. The meanings and interpretations of these verses will vary according to the knowledge of the time, until scientific ideas become well established facts. Science has advanced dramatically in the last 1400 years, and some of the scientific disciplines did not exist even a few hundred years ago. Therefore, we should expect to find great variations in the interpretations of many of these verses found in the old Quranic interpretation literature such as Tafsir: Al-Tabari, Qurtubi and Ibn-Kathir. As science advances Muslims must reinterpret these verses in light of modern knowledge. The reinterpretation must include a carful review of previous interpretations, a correct understanding of the origins and meanings of the Arabic words and phrases, the verses’ relationship to other Quranic verses and an in-depth understanding of the scientific findings. If we do not reinterpret these verses, and we remain with the interpretations of the past, we would have, in effect, eliminated a major source of Quranic miracles.

    Best Regards,

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    format_quote Originally Posted by ihijazi View Post
    Alsalam Alaykum,
    ......................

    The reinterpretation must include a careful review of previous interpretations, a correct understanding of the origins and meanings of the Arabic words and phrases, the verses’ relationship to other Quranic verses and an in-depth understanding of the scientific findings. If we do not reinterpret these verses, and we remain with the interpretations of the past, we would have, in effect, eliminated a major source of Quranic miracles.

    Best Regards,
    wa alaikum salaam
    yes, we should as Br. Estes said:
    it is important to keep in mind that any time we discover something in the answers to actually be better than what we already have, we should be committed to change our position and accept that which is true over that which is false and take that which is better for that which is inferior.
    but I do not think he meant that all and sundry should be doing it, only well known people who can be spoken to, face to face, who have history can be relied upon, not any tom, dick and harry who goes on flight of fancy or is an expert googler can be taken as our teacher.


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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Selam aleykum

    format_quote Originally Posted by ihijazi View Post
    The meanings and interpretations of many of these verses are either straight forward or well documented in the Sunnah literature. A few verses are classified as allegorical (mutshabhat), and we are forbidden to interpret them, since their meanings are only known to Allah. The remaining verses were left open to the interpretations of the Muslims, and are the source of the Quran’s continuous miracles.
    Brother that is just plain wrong. Personal interpretation is not allowed for any verse! You must always have some source, even for the third kind of verses.

    Within these verses are words, phrases and meanings related to Allah’s creation in the fields of astronomy, geology, embryology, botany, entomology, archeology, biology, etc. The meanings and interpretations of these verses will vary according to the knowledge of the time, until scientific ideas become well established facts. Science has advanced dramatically in the last 1400 years, and some of the scientific disciplines did not exist even a few hundred years ago.
    Well scientific findings do not always provide a guarantee. And the cases of the tafsir you presented are as such. Just because we know understand the scientific possibility of an asteroid hitting earth, and the ramifications of it, does not give us a guarantee that Allah subhana wa ta'ala will indeed use this method for the day of resurrection. So in this case your scientific findings provide no guarantee once soever; and the tafsir is by mere personal opinion, which is haram.

    If we do not reinterpret these verses, and we remain with the interpretations of the past, we would have, in effect, eliminated a major source of Quranic miracles.
    Well that does not seem like a big deal to me, far more dangerous is the possibility of fabricating false miracles, which the later will inevitably be falsified and may turn people away from Islam! And if you look at Sites like the one from Harun Yahya, you can find dozens of these fabricated miracles based on doggy science, bad linguistically interpretation and, mere opinion. And it's very sad, because it takes away the spotlight from the genuine miracles that are also mentioned on that page. There is a reason that tafsir is limited to certain rules, and no matter what amount of knowledge we potentially miss out on, we should still respect those rules, end of story.

    Now please back on topic, if you want to continue this open a new topic for it.
    Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    [QUOTE=Abdul Fattah;1023999]
    Hi there there

    No we cannot, it is still a major problem to the theory of evolution, and just asking nicely won't make it go away.
    If there was no fossils evolution would still clearly be understandable.[/qoute]
    Just because it's understandable doesn't mean it's accurate. That's not the issue.
    Oh, bad wording on my part. I'll try and be more clear: if there was no fossil record there'd still be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support evolution. There’s innumerable sources online and they’ll be lots of information in your local library too.



    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    I resent that. Stop making it look as if the issue here were science vs. religion. That's not an accurate representation. Many atheists don't believe in all parts of the evolution theory also! Some parts of the evolution theory simply aren't scientific, and that's a fact that any self-respecting scientist should acknowledge regardless of his personal views.
    I’m at a loss when you say some parts of evolution aren’t scientific. I’d be interested in finding out more if you could give me a link or something. It’s curious how, though, people seem to focus on the apparent flaws of evolution and conveniently ignore the overwhelming evidence that does illustrate it.

    I’m not trying to be provocative in a roundabout way when I say “If religionists were concerned with evidence they wouldn't be religious”. You took that in a bad way, but shouldn’t it be a good thing? In that you trust your God that much. You have faith. (Someone told me another way to spell faith is R I S K, and he was a Christian.) I’m not trying to come off as snobby to sound like “Oh, if ONLY they were enlightened about evidence et al they wouldn’t need religion.” No, of course not. I’m saying your faith transcends rational thought. It’s not about searching for a justification; it’s about you trusting God. It’s for this reason that I think it’s silly for people to try and prove their faith in the same manner one proves the Earth goes around the sun. It’s two different ways of thinking, two distant magisteria.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    Please stop telling people what to do and stop being a hypocrite. Aren't you doing the exact same thing? Trying to bring some form of enlightenment to people? What makes you so fantastic that it's ok for you to come here and spread the enlightened vision of atheism, but it's not ok for other people to spread their faith? If you don't like it, ignore it, that's all you can do.
    What I’m doing is giving you my opinions and calling me a hypocrite (etc) isn’t refuting them. There's nothing tospread about atheism.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    You're wrong, there's a huge point. You're just not willing to accept that point.
    I don’t think I’m wrong when I say you didn’t choose Islam because of evidence. There’s no more evidence for Islam then there is evidence for Christianity. You didn’t see something one day and go “Oh, ok, I now know beyond all doubt that Islam is the right religion.” You don’t know any more than the Christian. As I said, though, it’s not about proving, it’s about faith.

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Hi there there
    format_quote Originally Posted by there there View Post
    Oh, bad wording on my part. I'll try and be more clear: if there was no fossil record there'd still be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support evolution. There’s innumerable sources online and they’ll be lots of information in your local library too.
    Well you need to understand that the theory of evolution exists out of many subtheories. There might be plenty proof for other subtheories like microevolution and macroevolution, but there exists no proof at all for common descent! Once evolutionists finally admit that, they should acknowledge that common descent is not a scientific (sub)theory. I never said that all parts of evolution are bad...

    I’m at a loss when you say some parts of evolution aren’t scientific. I’d be interested in finding out more if you could give me a link or something.
    *) Micro evolution: Theory; well established, testable, falsifiable and provable.
    *) Macro evolution: Theory; still some lose ends but testable, falsifiable and provable.
    *) Common descent: Speculation; completely half baked, not testable, not falsifiable and not provable.

    It’s curious how, though, people seem to focus on the apparent flaws of evolution and conveniently ignore the overwhelming evidence that does illustrate it.
    It's even more curious how some "scientists" accept common descent based on the proofs for other subtheories rather then judging each subtheory by its own merits.

    I’m not trying to be provocative in a roundabout way when I say “If religionists were concerned with evidence they wouldn't be religious”. You took that in a bad way, but shouldn’t it be a good thing? In that you trust your God that much. You have faith. (Someone told me another way to spell faith is R I S K, and he was a Christian.) I’m not trying to come off as snobby to sound like “Oh, if ONLY they were enlightened about evidence et al they wouldn’t need religion.” No, of course not. I’m saying your faith transcends rational thought.
    Well I didn't really take it personal, I wasn't upset or anything, I'm often that aggressive in debating. It doesn't mean that I'm actually angry, it's a pragmatic thing I do to save time. You'll get used to it after a while ^_^
    Anyway, I think your mistakenly comparing Christianity with Islam to much. Islam is a very down to earth rational belief, whereas Christianity has a lot of mysticism and catholicism even more so.

    It’s not about searching for a justification; it’s about you trusting God. It’s for this reason that I think it’s silly for people to try and prove their faith in the same manner one proves the Earth goes around the sun. It’s two different ways of thinking, two distant magisteria.
    Well like I said, I stopped believing certain parts of evolution back when I was still atheistic. I do have faith in God and trust him, but thats completely irrelevant here. In fact Islam doesn't exclude evolution. I just don't believe in certain parts because they don't seem to make sense to me.

    [QUOTE]What I’m doing is giving you my opinions and calling me a hypocrite (etc) isn’t refuting them. [quote]
    I didn't attempt to refute you, since you didn't say anything in that quote worth refuting. You simply told people what you think they should or shouldn't do, and I simply replied that was a hypocritical thing to say. And don't know what I should be refuting there. I'm simply pointing something out to you.
    There's nothing tospread about atheism.
    I know that, but all the same you did come here and voice your opinion did you not?

    I don’t think I’m wrong when I say you didn’t choose Islam because of evidence. There’s no more evidence for Islam then there is evidence for Christianity. You didn’t see something one day and go “Oh, ok, I now know beyond all doubt that Islam is the right religion.” You don’t know any more than the Christian. As I said, though, it’s not about proving, it’s about faith.
    How would you know? As a matter of fact I am convinced completely of my faith. I don't consider it very plausible, instead I consider it factual. Even if I can't provide any concrete proofs, I have seen enough of them myself. Sadly I can't reproduce them though. Eitherway, that still doesn't matter. Just because there is no "evidence" doesn't mean that we should give up and shut up. People convert to Islam all the time, and when they do, forums like this are a huge push in the back for people who do convert. Also, people who were born into an Islamic background might sometimes feel intimidated by (atheistic) scientists who make it seem as if science and religion are antagonistic. For them to these debates can be very useful. So there is a very big point.
    Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    Well you need to understand that the theory of evolution exists out of many subtheories. There might be plenty proof for other subtheories like microevolution and macroevolution, but there exists no proof at all for common descent! Once evolutionists finally admit that, they should acknowledge that common descent is not a scientific (sub)theory. I never said that all parts of evolution are bad...

    *) Micro evolution: Theory; well established, testable, falsifiable and provable.
    *) Macro evolution: Theory; still some lose ends but testable, falsifiable and provable.
    *) Common descent: Speculation; completely half baked, not testable, not falsifiable and not provable.
    To say common descent is just speculation, much less that there’s no evidence for it is just an outright lie, a lie akin to saying Spain doesn’t being with the letter S. Please, look it up in a reputable textbook, or a reputable science source online. There’s a reason science works the way it does, peer reviewing work; so the riff raff doesn’t come through. Science works by almost trying to disprove hypotheses so it can rule stuff out and get closer to truth.


    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    It's even more curious how some "scientists" accept common descent based on the proofs for other subtheories rather then judging each subtheory by its own merits.
    If I’ve understood you right here, you’ve just asserted it’s wrong for scientists to use evidence primarily used to back up one sub theory to back up another. Well, why? There’s nothing illogical about using evidence to demonstrate two (or more) sub theories. If indeed the evidence does show that , then there’s no reason to say “Oh but that piece was used to prove x, and for that reason it can’t be used to prove y.”

    Say fossil A was found in a particular place and thus showed that the animal lived there, and later on fossil remnants of A were found hence showing it’s evolutionary history, there’s no reason why A can’t be used with the others to back up claims about its evolutionary past.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    Well I didn't really take it personal, I wasn't upset or anything, I'm often that aggressive in debating. It doesn't mean that I'm actually angry, it's a pragmatic thing I do to save time. You'll get used to it after a while ^_^
    Anyway, I think your mistakenly comparing Christianity with Islam to much. Islam is a very down to earth rational belief, whereas Christianity has a lot of mysticism and catholicism even more so.
    I don’t know a great deal about Islam so I can’t comment a great deal on this, but it’s the same as Christianity in that both beliefs demand a supernatural (creator) God exists, that listens to prayers etc. This alone is irrational, let alone the other supernatural claims it undoubtedly makes. Maybe you have a rational take on it.

    Maybe you don’t actually believe in a God, but I assume the majority do.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    How would you know? As a matter of fact I am convinced completely of my faith. I don't consider it very plausible, instead I consider it factual. Even if I can't provide any concrete proofs, I have seen enough of them myself. Sadly I can't reproduce them though. Eitherway, that still doesn't matter. Just because there is no "evidence" doesn't mean that we should give up and shut up. People convert to Islam all the time, and when they do, forums like this are a huge push in the back for people who do convert. Also, people who were born into an Islamic background might sometimes feel intimidated by (atheistic) scientists who make it seem as if science and religion are antagonistic. For them to these debates can be very useful. So there is a very big point.
    We must be using words differently. I meant that no one can prove their faith is the “right one” in the same way I can prove that this table my computer is sitting on exists. No one can prove their faith to the same degree. To consider your faith factual in the same sense I just outlined is to admit you’re deluded.

    I never said people should “give up and shut up” on the terms that there’s no evidence. The point I’m trying to make is that religion isn’t even about evidence and scientific reasoning (to the believer anyway). Religion starts from fixed conclusions that can’t be falsified. It shouldn’t be treated, in as far the believer should be concerned, in the same systematic way we approach other disciplines like science.

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Hi there there
    format_quote Originally Posted by there there View Post
    To say common descent is just speculation, much less that there’s no evidence for it is just an outright lie, a lie akin to saying Spain doesn’t being with the letter S. Please, look it up in a reputable textbook, or a reputable science source online. There’s a reason science works the way it does, peer reviewing work; so the riff raff doesn’t come through. Science works by almost trying to disprove hypotheses so it can rule stuff out and get closer to truth.
    It's easy to tell me to look into a textbook, it's a whole other thing to bring evidence, falsification or empirical data for yourself. In here if you wanna talk the talk, you better walk the walk. My position is there exist no such evidence, if you claim otherwise yo'ure welcome to show and tell.

    If I’ve understood you right here, you’ve just asserted it’s wrong for scientists to use evidence primarily used to back up one sub theory to back up another.
    Not "primarily", but entirely!

    [QUOTE]Well, why? There’s nothing illogical about using evidence to demonstrate two (or more) sub theories. [quote]
    Yes there is! In science each theory needs to be judged on it's own merits. You can't simply assume that if one theory is proven, that another is proven also because it's somehow related.

    If indeed the evidence does show that , then there’s no reason to say “Oh but that piece was used to prove x, and for that reason it can’t be used to prove y.”
    I'm not talking about what it's "supposed" to prove. I'm not an idiot. I'm talking about what it does prove! e.g: if you can prove that mutations happen, and you can prove that sometimes these mutations bring beneficial charesteristics, then that does not prove that all existing creatures evolved out of the same ancestral being. So proofs for micro and macro evolution, do not prove common descent.

    Say fossil A was found in a particular place and thus showed that the animal lived there, and later on fossil remnants of A were found hence showing it’s evolutionary history,
    A fossil does not "show" evolutionary history as you imply. It only shows which creatures lived in which era. How those creatures got there is a whole different matter. So unless you have a fossil of a pregnant creature with a mutated offspring or something like that, fossils can't prove common descent at all.

    ...belief demand a supernatural (creator) God exists, that listens to prayers etc. This alone is irrational, let alone the other supernatural claims it undoubtedly makes. Maybe you have a rational take on it.
    That must be some odd definition of irrational that I'm currently unaware of. There is nothing irrational about those things, rather you're being biased. Allow me to elaborate. When you conclude something is irrational simply because it's supernatural, then you assume that only the natural is rational. In other words you assume that the laws of nature are, will be, and have been ever present. Therefor you are biased by your assumption. even supernatural things can technically speaking be perfectly rational if they do not violate the rules of logic and self-consistency. The only objective objection you can voice towards supernatural claims, is that they are not natural. Of course, that kind of goes without saying, and it isn't far as provocative as calling it "irrational".

    We must be using words differently. I meant that no one can prove their faith is the “right one” in the same way I can prove that this table my computer is sitting on exists. No one can prove their faith to the same degree. To consider your faith factual in the same sense I just outlined is to admit you’re deluded.
    Just because you can't prove it to others, doesn't mean you can't be convinced about it yourself without having to jump to the conclusion of being deluded. By that argument you yourself would be deluded!
    1. You believe the table your pc sits on exists.
    2. I'm not sure it exists. (you could have lied, or perhaps just said something random to make a point)
    3. You cannot prove to me beyond reasonable doubt the existence of said table. (even if you show a picture I could say it's someone else's table, or photoshopped, if you buy me a plain ticket to come and see it I could claim that you've bought a new table just to win your argument. Whatever you do, I will always have a doorway to reasonable doubt.
    4. Therefor you are deluded?
    Quite the contrary, I would say that a person who believes: that anything that cannot be proven doesn't exist; is the narrow minded, deluded person.

    I never said people should “give up and shut up” on the terms that there’s no evidence. The point I’m trying to make is that religion isn’t even about evidence and scientific reasoning (to the believer anyway). Religion starts from fixed conclusions that can’t be falsified. It shouldn’t be treated, in as far the believer should be concerned, in the same systematic way we approach other disciplines like science.
    You didn't just "make a point", don't try to weasel out now. You said:
    "Please stop trying to justify your faith with supposed evidence and reason!"
    I would say that “give up and shut up” pretty much sums that up. Eitherway, like I said in my previous posts, even if a person isn't religious due to evidence, it can be a push in the back, or a relief during challenging times. So I don't see why people wouldn't be allowed to study their religious views in whichever way they find suitable. It's not like the methodology is copywriten to science, and religion has to abide by some restraining-order or something.
    Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Interesting article on recent fossil finds -

    Fossil Fish Shows Complexity of Transition to Land

    By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
    Published: October 15, 2008

    In a new study of a fossil fish that lived 375 million years ago, scientists are finding striking evidence of the intermediate steps by which some marine vertebrates evolved into animals that walked on land.

    There was much more to the complex transition than fins evolving into sturdy limbs. The head and braincase were changing, a mobile neck was emerging and a bone associated with underwater feeding and gill respiration was diminishing in size, a beginning of the bone’s adaptation for an eventual role in hearing for land animals.

    source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/sc...fossil.html?hp

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  20. #235
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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Hi Gator
    I find It odd that you would post claims about a fossil as "evidence" for evolution; when I just come to explain in one of my previous posts that such fossils can never serve as evidence at all. Fossils simply prove which animal lived when an where. It does not give evidence of how it gotten there, it doesn't show us what it allegedly evolved from or into. All those things are speculation and interpretation.
    Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

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    Check out my free e-book if you like reading drama-novels.

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Abdul Fattah i think it is great that we have someone with knowledge like yours to help explain to other such as me who are less knowledgable in these feilds "evolution" and that. thanks lol

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    Article on BBC

    Here is an article I read on the BBC website. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I hope you will too..





    Discrepancies in the Theory of Evolution

    Many people believe that science has proven that life and all it encompasses evolved by infinitesimal gradiations, a theory we call evolution. According to creationist theory, this is simply not true. The theory of evolution has many discrepancies and often conflicts with reality. Let us take a walk down popular science's timeline of the universe, and examine it objectively and scientifically.
    Prebiological Evolution
    First let us look at the theory of evolution itself. Before life can evolve from one thing to another it must be created in its simplest form. All life undergoes something called protein 'transcription' and 'translation'.
    It starts with DNA. DNA is described as a twisted ladder. Now try making a ladder with as many rungs as the Encyclopaedia Britannica has letters! Furthermore, these letters - or 'bases' - must be in a set order according to what organism they are in. In short, DNA is like a book. A book cannot be made by throwing random letters of the alphabet together. The letters must be carefully selected by an intelligent source - the author. This means DNA needs a writer, and we can certainly suppose that the being who created the universe also 'writes' DNA.
    DNA must interact with mRNA1 to continue the transcription and translation. mRNA is created base by base copying the opposite of DNA. Then this mRNA goes through a ribosome (or rRNA2) and connects with tRNA3. tRNA is a smaller version of mRNA that picks up complex organic compounds called amino acids. When tRNA and mRNA meet they form a long chain of amino acids called a protein. You can see now how hard it is for these compounds to simply come together. The odds against these five compounds being randomly formed in a pool of muck just after the planet has cooled and then to have suddenly begun this cycle are astronomical, if not impossible, yet life according to evolution requires that this happen. In fact, life requires that this happen.
    In 1953, a scientist named Stanley Miller mixed several chemicals is a glass tube, zapped them with electricity, and subsequently created the previously-mentioned amino acids. This, he said, was probably what happened in that pool of muck billions of years ago to create life. Newspapers cited a breakthrough and subsequent experiments popped up, some using heat instead of electricity, others ultraviolet rays to mimic the sun.
    But organisms only use a specific kind of amino acids known as 'left handed'. Miller's amino acids were of both kinds. There is no natural process that creates only left-handed, life-supporting amino acids.
    Five years later, a chemist named Sidney Fox boiled already existing amino acids in water, and some of them formed protein-like chains of amino acids. Again, the scientific community cited a breakthrough. But lifeforms require that proteins are linked by peptide bonds. Fox's protein-like structures had all sorts of different kinds of bonds, rendering them useless to a living organism. Also, a true protein has its amino acids linked in a particular order. Fox's protein-like structures were the equivalent of throwing Scrabble letters on the floor and calling it a sentence.
    In both of these experiments, the products were immediately put in tubes in a dark place where they would be incapable of breaking down again. Why? Because as soon as these compounds are created they will fall apart unless their environment changes to a more suitable form. In short, the environment necessary for amino acids to be created is not the same as the environment that will keep them alive. This is because heat, electricity and ultraviolet rays will destroy amino acids. If one wants to create amino acids, one must remove the very things that created them after they are created! Fox and Miller have merely proved that even the tiniest organic molecules can only be created by an intelligent force.
    Fossils
    In 1859, Charles Darwin published the first widely accepted theory of evolution in the tome The Origin of the Species, and the outcry was almost immediate. Contrary to popular belief, though, this disgruntlement came mostly from geologists, not clergymen. The fossil record back then (and still today) was nearly totally void of transitional species. If species are continually mutating, never constant, why do we continually find several of the same, certain prehistoric creatures, but never any that appear to be in transition? Why do paleontologists find lots of dinosaurs but never where dinosaurs come from, nor what they turned into?
    In Darwin's own words, 'Why, if species have descended by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of species being, as we see them, well defined?' It is an excellent question, which he answers himself, 'I can give no satisfactory answer.'
    So, resuming our trip through history, let us examine the most abundantly fossilised life forms: vertebrates. These are animals with backbones, including fish, reptiles, mammals, birds and so on.
    Fish to Amphibians
    The evolutionary thesis states that certain fish species evolved the ability to crawl out of the water and then evolved the other amphibious characteristics. There is no specific fossil fish species yet identified as an amphibian ancestor, but an extinct order known as the rhipsodians are dubbed by Darwinists as the 'ancestral group'. Their skeletal features have certain characteristics that resemble early amphibians, but according to the textbook Vertebrate History by Barbara Stahl, 'none of the known fishes is thought to be directly ancestral to the earliest land vertebrates. Most of them lived after the first amphibians appeared, and those that came before show no evidence of developing the stout limbs and ribs that characterise the primitive tetrapods.' There are other inconsistencies, such as the major differences in the reproductive systems of fish and amphibians.
    In 1938, a coelacanth, a fish thought to have been extinct for 70 million years, was caught in the Indian ocean. Scientists thought that as it was a close relative of the rhipsodians it would offer new information about the soft body parts of intermediate ancestors of amphibians and fish. But, in the dissection, its internal organs showed no sign of being pre-adapted to land, nor did it give any indication of how a fish becomes an amphibian. This suggests an examination of the soft body parts of rhipsodians would be equally disappointing to the theory of evolution.
    Amphibians to Reptiles
    This transition is currently the least explicable. To date there is no satisfactory candidate to document it. There are fossil amphibians called seymouria that have certain reptile characteristics in their skeletal structure, but recently they have been re-labelled true amphibians. They also appear far too late in the fossil record anyway.
    The most important differences between reptiles and amphibians, however, involve the soft body parts. And these, of course, cannot be fossilised. The main difficulty for Darwinists attempting to explain this transition is the vast differences in the reproductive system of these two kingdoms. Amphibian eggs are laid underwater and the hatched larvae undergo a complex metamorphosis before they become adults, whereas reptiles lay hard, shell-covered eggs on land and the young are perfect replicas of the adults. No Darwinian explanation yet exists as to how amphibians developed these reptilian reproductive processes.
    Reptiles to Mammals
    There are plenty of possible transitional species for this mutation, and at first a reptile to mammal transition seems quite plausible. It has even been called the 'crown jewel' of the fossil record. There is a large reptilian order called therapsida, of which some fossils have features intermediate between mammal and reptile. A fossil is considered reptilian if it has more than one bone in its jaw and if one particular jawbone, the articulator bone, connects to the skull's quadrate bone. Mammal fossils have one jawbone, the dentary bone, which connects to the squamosal bone in the skull. Assuming this criterion, some therapsids have slight mammalian characteristics, and a few could reasonably be classified as either reptiles or mammals.
    Douglas Futuyuma, evolutionary biologist, writes, 'The gradual transition from therapsids to mammals is so abundantly documented by scores of species in every stage of transition that it is impossible to tell which therapsid species were actual ancestors of modern mammals.' But Darwinian transformation requires a single line of descent, so large numbers of eligible candidates prove nothing. Furthermore, the therapsids do not come in the chronological order required of them by Darwinism. What this means is, therapsid fossils do not go from most reptilian jawbone to most mammalian jawbone in chronological order. As famous Darwin critic Philip Johnson puts it, 'An artificial line of descent [between reptiles and mammals] can be constructed, but only by arbitrarily mixing species of different subgroups, and by arranging them out of chronological order. If [the evolutionary] hypothesis is that mammals evolved from therapsids only once... then most of the therapsids with mammal-like characteristics were not part of a macroevolutionary transition. If most were not, perhaps all were not.'
    Besides, the only things therapsids have in common with mammals are the ear and jaw bones. One realises there is a great deal more explaining to do when one observes the vast differences in reptilian and mammalian reproductive systems and other soft body parts. If you go further, things get even trickier, especially trying to explain the mutations behind the diversity of mammals, a group that includes such varieties as monkeys, horses, platypuses, bats, whales, squirrels, polar bears, white tailed deer, etc. Again Philip Johnson is critical saying, 'If mammals are a monophyletic4 group, then the Darwinist model requires that every one of the groups have descended from a single, unidentified small land mammal. Huge numbers of intermediate species in the direct line of transition would have had to exist, but the fossil record fails to record them.'
    Reptiles to Birds
    Archaeopteryx is an approximately 145 million-year-old bird with skeletal features similar to a small dinosaur called compsognathus. It is birdlike in that it has wings, feathers and a wishbone, but it has a mouthful of teeth and claws on its wings. The question here is whether archaeopteyx is a direct link between reptiles and birds, or just a peculiar misfit such as the modern platypus. Until recently, it was regarded as a misfit because the next oldest birds were aquatic divers, unlikely descendants of archaeopteyx. That changed when two fossil birds with certain reptilian features, dated approximately 10 and 20 million years after archaeopteryx, were found - one in China, one in Spain. There is, however, little evidence that they are related to archaeopteryx. Now, the autheniticity of archaeopteryx has been called into question. Many scientists in good standing believe it was a hoax.
    Whatever is concluded about archaeopteryx, questions still arise as to how feathered wings, the distinct avian lung, and other body parts evolved, not to mention the ability to fly. Similar to mammals, birds are a very diversified kingdom containing such species as the emu, the sparrow and the penguin, and it is difficult to explain how they evolved from a single ancestor through viable intermediate stages.
    Apes to Humans
    Anthropology, the study of human origins, sometimes appears to have more evidence backing it because of its nomenclature. Nebraska man and Piltdown Man were discovered to be hoaxes, Neanderthals are considered as a subspecies, not an ancestor, and Cro-Magnon man is simply modern man. That leaves us with four fossil species, Australopithecus arensis, A. africanus, Homo habilis, and Homo erectus.
    The first two, known as the australopithecines, are apes no more technologically or cerebrally developed than modern gorillas or chimpanzees, but supposedly walked upright. However, one of Britain's most prestigious primate experts, Solly Zuckerman, recently performed biometric testing on them and concluded that 'the anatomical basis for the claim that [they] walked and ran upright like man is so much more flimsy than the evidence which points to the conclusions that their gait was some variant of what one sees in subhuman primates that it remains unacceptable.' Zuckerman sees the evolution of man from apes as self evident, but tends to see much of the fossil evidence as bunk. He compared it to parapsychology and claimed the amount of radical speculation 'is so astonishing that it is legitimate to ask whether much science is yet to be found in this field at all.' Other experts in good standing claim that the australopithecines were actually distinct species.
    Homo habilis or 'handy man' is an ape that was given status as a human ancestor because it was found near primitive tools that it was presumed to have used. But many prestigious anthropologists now deny that he ever used tools, or even that he ever existed.
    The popular current hypothesis known as the 'mitochondrial Eve' theory states that humans came from Africa less that 200,000 years ago, thus disqualifying the current Homo erectus fossils, which are older than 200,000 years. However, H. erectus is still listed as a human ancestor.
    Why is there so much confusion in this field? Well, emotions often run amok in studies of one's own ancestry. Robert Lewin, in his book Human Evolution, reports numerous examples of subjectivity. He states, 'There is something inexpressibly moving about cradling in one's hands a cranium drawn from one's own ancestry.' What a way to lower objectivity!
    Most Creationists do not deny the possibility that these four species might have existed, and therefore the possible transitional steps between apes and humans, but not the smooth sequence of developments proclaimed by Darwinists.
    Contd...
    Last edited by Hamayun; 10-20-2008 at 09:16 AM.

  23. #238
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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Contd...


    Irreducible Complexity
    Even in the present, many organisms and parts of organisms do not appear to have evolved from lesser things. This is because they are 'irreducibly compex' lifeforms. Irreducible complexity is a concept that biochemistry professor Michael Behe developed in his book, Darwin's Black Box. If something is made of interacting parts that all work together, then it is referred to as irreducibly complex. Behe uses a mousetrap as his example. A mousetrap cannot be assembled through gradual improvement. You cannot start with a wooden base, catching a few mice, then add a hammer, and catch more, then add a spring, improving it further. To even begin catching mice one must assemble all the components completely with design and intent. Furthermore, if one of these parts changes or evolves independently, the entire thing will stop working. The mousetrap, for instance, will become useless if even one part malfunctions.
    Likewise, many biological structures are irreducibly complex. Bats are a well known example. They are said to have evolved from a small rodent whose front toes became wings. This presents a multitude of problems. As the front toes grow skin between them, the creature has limbs that are too long to run, or even walk well, yet too short to help it fly. There is no plausible way that a bat wing can evolve from a rodent's front toes. The fossil record supports this, because the first time bats are seen in the fossil record, they have completely developed wings and are virtually identical to modern bats.
    Now consider the eye. Suppose that before animals had sight, one species decided it would be advantageous to be able to decrypt light rays. So, what do they evolve first? The retina? The iris? The eye is made of many tiny parts, each totally useless without the others. The probability that a genetic mutation that would create each of these at the same time in the same organism is zero. If, however one organism evolved just a retina, then the logic of Darwin suggests that the only solution is to rid oneself of useless traits replacing them with beneficial ones, so the idea of the eye evolving one segment at a time is bogus also.
    Richard Dawkins gives the explanation that some one-celled protozoa have a light sensitive spot with a pigment screen behind it, and some multi-celled organisms have the same thing with cup-shaped cells. Then there is the nautilus which, has a pinhole eye with no lens, and the squid eye, which incorporates the lens.
    But these types of eye involve different types of structures rather than a series of similar structures becoming improved, and are thus not thought to have evolved from each other. Besides, even the first step, a light-sensitive spot, is considered irreducibly complex. This apparatus can only detect some shadows, but it requires a multitude of inter-related, complex chemical reactions to work. This excerpt from a book describes it: 'A photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which changes to trans-retinal, which forces a change in the shape of a protein called rhodopsin, which sticks to another protein called transductin, which binds with another molecule...' As for those cup-shaped cells, there are dozens of proteins controlling cell structure and shape. All these would have to be spontaneously created for flat sensory cells to become cup-shaped. Even if the eye did evolve, so many different kind of species have eyes, that according to evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr, the eye would have had to evolve over 40 times to achieve its current popularity, an incredibly implausible idea.
    A bird is another perfect example. A bird's entire body is built for flight. If even the slightest major mutation occurs, a bird becomes incapable of flight. If some prehistoric reptile felt the urge to fly, evolving something even as complex as wings would do no good. In fact, it would be a disadvantage to lug those wings around.
    The only plausible explanation for irreducibly complex biological tissue is an intelligent creator.
    So Why is the Theory of Evolution so Popular?
    Richard Dawkins once said that 'Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually-fulfilled athiest.' Perhaps that is why Creationists are stereotyped as a group of Bible thumpers and scientifically-ignorant backwater folk. Evolution is taught in schools all over the world, not as a theory, but a fact.
    Genetic variation is often mistaken as proof of evolution. These are often referred to as examples of 'evolution in action'. Let us examine some of these.
    Evolutionary biologist Douglas Futuyama has put together a summary of examples of evolution in action in one of his books:
    • Some bacteria develop resistance to certain antibiotics. Likewise, many insects resist pesticides.
    • After a massive storm in Massachusetts, hundreds of dead birds littered the countryside. A scientist named Bumpus collected the survivors and killed them, then compared their skeletons with the birds that had died in the storm. He found that, though the size difference was minute, larger birds survived more frequently than smaller ones.
    • Scientists have observed that some mice will stop reproducing when their local population is 'flooded' with a gene that causes their males to be sterile.
    • In 1977, a drought on the Galapagos Islands forced Darwin's famous finches to eat larger seeds. For a while, many smaller finches died because they had trouble eating the bigger seeds.
    There is no reason to doubt that the strongest organisms prosper, nor that certain circumstances make drug-resistant bacteria more prolific. The problem here is, none of these explain how organisms become other organisms, how organs become other organs, or even how the most minor changes in an organism can become permanent. All of these examples are isolated, special circumstances. Philip Johnson comments, 'That larger birds have an advantage over smaller birds in high winds or droughts has no tendency whatever to prove that similar factors caused birds to come into existence in the first place.' French zoologist Pierre Grasse says, 'The 'evolution in action' of J Huxley and other biologists is simply the observation of demographic facts, local fluctuations of genotypes, geographical distributions. Often the species concerned have remained practically unchanged for hundreds of centuries! Fluctuation as a result of circumstances, with prior modification of the genome, does not imply evolution...'
    Indeed, science itself does not imply evolution. Life is far too complex to have been created by a natural force, and natural history contradicts the necessary timeline of evolution. Much of the basis for the theory of evolution is based on false or exaggerated information.

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    Here's an interesting video on thoughts on abiogenesis - TURN SOUND OFF/HAS MUSIC, but its a slide show so you can watch it anyway.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM6FGY2jvG8

    Thanks.

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    Re: Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective

    format_quote Originally Posted by Gator View Post
    Here's an interesting video on thoughts on abiogenesis - TURN SOUND OFF/HAS MUSIC, but its a slide show so you can watch it anyway.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM6FGY2jvG8

    Thanks.
    Not bad. Although it seems to jump from one conclusion to another with no real explanation. Like someone pointed out he jumps from "organic molecules are quite common in space" to "the pre-biotic environment contained many simple fatty acids".

    Also "Irreducible Complexity" seems to be a big hurdle. Read the article on Irreducible Complexity I have posted above.
    Thanks for sharing anyway...


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