How can God dwell inside of you?

[rpwelton]

OK, so this is another trinity-related question, although it doesn't have to do with the confusing nature of the doctrine, but rather the "Holy Ghost" element of it.

So my understanding is that the Holy Ghost is the part of God that lives inside each and every Christian. This spirit causes the person to live a Christian life. I also know that this belief has different meanings to different people, but I think that's the jist of it, right?

OK, so then my question would be this: if God (or a part of Him) is actually living inside of a person, how could that person commit even the smallest, minute sin? The Bible says that God cannot be in the presence of sin, so how can God, Who is Perfect, dwell inside of a creature which is by nature, imperfect?

Thanks!

[mkh4JC]

Well, the Bible warns about this. Here's what Paul says in Corinthians:

'Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.' 1 Corinthians: 6: 18-20.

There's also these verses, illustrating that when you sin as a Christian then God will discipline you for it. I can very much attest to this as I did something really stupid when I first accepted Christ and I have been suffering under God's discipline ever since.
The Bible calls this chastening:

'For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bast-ards, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?...

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-9, 11

It all comes back to free will though. God has ways of straightening you out if you sin as a Christian, and if you don't endure the chastisement that he has placed in your life then, as the scripture states, he will just take you out of the world.

[The Khan]

Allah-u-Abha,

This is not the view of any religion. It's the view of the philosopher, James Ray, and I agree with him on this matter. It can answer your question on the Holy Spirit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAV3VLFZhs0

Peace, love, and light,

Minhaj

[rpwelton]

Well, the Bible warns about this. Here's what Paul says in Corinthians:

'Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.' 1 Corinthians: 6: 18-20.

There's also these verses, illustrating that when you sin as a Christian then God will discipline you for it. I can very much attest to this as I did something really stupid when I first accepted Christ and I have been suffering under God's discipline ever since.
The Bible calls this chastening:

'For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bast-ards, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?...

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-9, 11

It all comes back to free will though. God has ways of straightening you out if you sin as a Christian, and if you don't endure the chastisement that he has placed in your life then, as the scripture states, he will just take you out of the world.

OK, so God disciplines you. But if according to the Bible, God can't even in the presence of sin, then how can he live inside of a person? It would mean that every time a Christian sins, God "abandons" that body.

Which would mean that God is not with you at all times.

[mkh4JC]

OK, so God disciplines you. But if according to the Bible, God can't even in the presence of sin, then how can he live inside of a person? It would mean that every time a Christian sins, God "abandons" that body.

Which would mean that God is not with you at all times.

Well, God won't tolerate a sinner in his presence. But what you put forth is in reference to heaven. We still have hope and a chance to know God and to do his will while we are on this side of existance. And as I said, it has to do with free will. If you sin as a Christian, then you have to accept the responsibility of your actions. If you continue to sin, and choose not to be subject to God's discipline, then God may execute judgement on you, taking you out of the world.

And a Christian sinning doesn't have to be the same as when a sinner sins (and in most cases it probably isn't). Me for instance, I sinned when I first accepted Christ (back in the summer of 2002) but it wasn't continuous sinning. Basically the devil took advantage of me when I first accepted Christ, and I fell into sin, but--as I said--it wasn't continuous. And so thus I have been suffering for things that I did way back since 2002.

Some Christians too don't believe that you can lose your salvation. It is true that Jesus says he will never leave you nor forsake you as a Christian, but that doesn't mean you can't leave him. The Bible also says that there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death.

And I guess this would be a good quote concerning what you have brought up:

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit dwells in the same body the Christian dwells in, and the old nature of a Christian is as wicked as the devil if not more so. Have you not read, "The heart is deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS, and desperately wicked: who can know it" (Jer. 17:9)? The heart of man, including Christians, is extremely wicked.

And also here:

Furthermore, even though Christ's blood is sufficient to redeem all things, all things, including a Christian's body, have not yet been redeemed.

The point is that you, as a Christian, are not perfect. You can still think on things that are not wholesome, you just have the power not to act. You are saved through your spirit (where God dwells) but your body and your mind have yet to be redeemed. That won't happen until the rapture of the church, when God will completely redeem us, and when you will cease being able to sin. So God holds you accountable for your actions, and takes direct action and responds if you do sin. As unlike sinners who are still bound and are slaves to sin, Christians are no longer so.

[glo]

OK, so then my question would be this: if God (or a part of Him) is actually living inside of a person, how could that person commit even the smallest, minute sin? The Bible says that God cannot be in the presence of sin, so how can God, Who is Perfect, dwell inside of a creature which is by nature, imperfect?

Greetings, rpwelton

My reply is going to be somewhat different from Fedos, so if it is theologically wrong I hope that somebody will correct me.

According to my own understanding, the reason that God's Spirit can dwell in us imperfect human beings is that Jesus by his sacrifice took upon himself our human failings, our sin and our iniquities - thereby removing the barrier between God and his creation which had been caused by sin.
Because of his sacrifice we no longer have to purify ourselves with cleaning rituals and animal sacrifices, and we no longer have to address God through the medium of priests and rabbis.
We are able to come into the presence of God just as we are, warts and all!

Your question has prompted me to read those wonderful passages in John 14, where Jesus promises the Holy Spirit to his disciples just before his arrest:

"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."
(John 14: 15-21; 26-27)

The Holy Spirit is a gift from God, which is available to all who believe and accept it!

The Holy Spirit neither dwells in me because I am 'good enough' to deserve him, nor does he make me a 'perfect saintly person with a shining halo' as soon as I accept him ... but if I am willing, he will help me to become a better and more God-oriented person.

But God can only work in me when I am willing to make myself his instrument in this world.
To do that I need to submit myself to his will, and - at this stage I agree with your and Fedos' statement that God cannot be in the same place as sin - choose God's will over my own desires.

The Holy Spirit gives us comfort and guidance, but (as Fedos said) he also convicts us of sin.

All too often I cannot hear God's Spirit stirring inside me, or I hear him but refuse to obey, because I am too full of SELF to do so - selfishness, self-righteousness, self-interest, self-importance ...
Only when I put aside that self-centeredness and submit to God's will, do I allow the Holy Spirit to work inside me. And when I do, the most amazing things can happen.

Peace

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings, rpwelton

My reply is going to be somewhat different from Fedos, so if it is theologically wrong I hope that somebody will correct me.

According to my own understanding, the reason that God's Spirit can dwell in us imperfect human beings is that Jesus by his sacrifice took upon himself our human failings, our sin and our iniquities - thereby removing the barrier between God and his creation which had been caused by sin.
Because of his sacrifice we no longer have to purify ourselves with cleaning rituals and animal sacrifices, and we no longer have to address God through the medium of priests and rabbis.
We are able to come into the presence of God just as we are, warts and all!

Your question has prompted me to read those wonderful passages in John 14, where Jesus promises the Holy Spirit to his disciples just before his arrest:



The Holy Spirit is a gift from God, which is available to all who believe and accept it!

The Holy Spirit neither dwells in me because I am 'good enough' to deserve him, nor does he make me a 'perfect saintly person with a shining halo' as soon as I accept him ... but if I am willing, he will help me to become a better and more God-oriented person.

But God can only work in me when I am willing to make myself his instrument in this world.
To do that I need to submit myself to his will, and - at this stage I agree with your and Fedos' statement that God cannot be in the same place as sin - choose God's will over my own desires.

The Holy Spirit gives us comfort and guidance, but (as Fedos said) he also convicts us of sin.

All too often I cannot hear God's Spirit stirring inside me, or I hear him but refuse to obey, because I am too full of SELF to do so - selfishness, self-righteousness, self-interest, self-importance ...
Only when I put aside that self-centeredness and submit to God's will, do I allow the Holy Spirit to work inside me. And when I do, the most amazing things can happen.

Peace

We sinned 2000 years ago and we still sin today. What barrier was removed? According to your words, some change in humanity occurred with the crucifixion, but people are just as bad as they were before, maybe worse.

[Yanal]

God gives us a choice but before we realize it,the devil comes and we are confused between the right and wrong.

[mkh4JC]

Glo explained your question a bit better than I did, rpwelton. As I have said previously, I am only a baby in Christ, and don't know everything, for varying reasons. As she stated, the reason the Holy Spirit can live inside of a Christian, even in the instances of when they sin, is because Jesus already paid our sin debt, and we have accepted him. Christians are not righteous or holy because of anything that we ourselves do (although you still are supposed to live holy before God and you have power to do so) rather, we have Christ's perfect righteousness.

[AntiKarateKid]

Glo explained your question a bit better than I did, rpwelton. As I have said previously, I am only a baby in Christ, and don't know everything, for varying reasons. As she stated, the reason the Holy Spirit can live inside of a Christian, even in the instances of when they sin, is because Jesus already paid our sin debt, and we have accepted him. Christians are not righteous or holy because of anything that we ourselves do (although you still are supposed to live holy before God and you have power to do so) rather, we have Christ's perfect righteousness.

What does that mean?

We are not righteous because of what we do, but because Jesus pbuh is righteous for us?

If you have Jesus' pbuh righteousness then, why be good yourself? Afterall you are kicking back because you had someone else repent for you.

[mkh4JC]

What does that mean?

We are not righteous because of what we do, but because Jesus pbuh is righteous for us?

If you have Jesus' pbuh righteousness then, why be good yourself? Afterall you are kicking back because you had someone else repent for you.

Well, God demands perfection, because he is perfect. Christ lived a sinless life. When you accept him, you are adopted into the family of God and you receive his righteousness. You're supposed to live holy before God, because he is holy and he wants you to live holy. It's not like you can just accept Christ and start living any kind of lifestyle you want, because you can't (not unless you want to suffer at the hands of an almighty God, or possibly lose your salvation). Becoming Christian is the beginning of your journey towards perfection.

[rpwelton]

What do you say about other religions where people claim to have similar experiences of feeling a "bodily" connection to God, or God's spirit dwelling within them?

[glo]

What barrier was removed? [...]

Greetings, AAK

Did you read my whole post?
I am asking because the sentences which immediately follow the sentence you highlighted in red give the answer to your question:

Because of his sacrifice we no longer have to purify ourselves with cleaning rituals and animal sacrifices, and we no longer have to address God through the medium of priests and rabbis.
We are able to come into the presence of God just as we are, warts and all!

According to your words, some change in humanity occurred with the crucifixion

Certainly what occured was a change in the relationship between God and humanity!

We sinned 2000 years ago and we still sin today. [...] but people are just as bad as they were before, maybe worse.

Whether people are worse today is debatable and probably doesn’t belong here.

As for your comments about sin, you are right. Sin has not been removed. Our God-given freedom to make our own choices remains in place.
Sin will not be eradicated until the final day of judgement.

The point is not whether we still sin or not … clearly we do!
The point is that with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us we have access to his comfort, his guidance, his conviction. Whether we use it as much as we should or could is a different matter.

Salaam

[Oleander]

Well, God demands perfection, because he is perfect. Christ lived a sinless life. When you accept him, you are adopted into the family of God and you receive his righteousness. You're supposed to live holy before God, because he is holy and he wants you to live holy. It's not like you can just accept Christ and start living any kind of lifestyle you want, because you can't (not unless you want to suffer at the hands of an almighty God, or possibly lose your salvation). Becoming Christian is the beginning of your journey towards perfection.

>>>But your own book tell's you if you accept Jesus and kept on sinning, you are NOT from God, but from the devil, which means you accept the devil, not God.

[glo]

What do you say about other religions where people claim to have similar experiences of feeling a "bodily" connection to God, or God's spirit dwelling within them?

That’s a difficult question to answer …
What religion(s) do you have in mind?

I certainly wouldn’t disregard the possibility (or even likelihood) that God’s Spirit guides non-believers too. (Indeed, how else would non-believers come to faith, if not by the prompting and stirring of the Holy Spirit inside them?)

Generally speaking, however, I would want to scrutinise any such claims. It is all too easy for us to convince ourselves that ‘God is telling us things’ or ‘we have a supernatural experience’

In this instance, I use scripture and Jesus’ words himself as my measuring stick:

1. Jesus himself told his disciples that the Holy Spirit would be sent to them (see my previous post), and that he would dwell inside us.
2. The receiving of the Holy Spirit was experienced by the disciples on the day of Pentecost. It was witnessed by many other people and recorded in the book of Acts.
3. The receiving of the Holy Spirit (in line with scripture and with Jesus’ words) is still experienced now by uncounted Christians all over the world.

Salaam

[mkh4JC]

>>>But your own book tell's you if you accept Jesus and kept on sinning, you are NOT from God, but from the devil, which means you accept the devil, not God.

No, I think the scripture you're referring to is the one where Jesus says, 'Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin' (ie not the servant of God) in Saint John. And that's true. If you're still committing trespasses then you aren't serving God.

What do you say about other religions where people claim to have similar experiences of feeling a "bodily" connection to God, or God's spirit dwelling within them?

Well, people who make these kinds of claims do so from the perspective (and this is their belief) that God in dwells within everyone, and that human beings have this unsullied emptiness inside of them where God dwells, that hasn't been corrupted. It is important to note however that the belief that God could indwell within a person did not come into existance until the advent of Christianity, so what they've done is warped aspects of the truth. These are the kinds of people who practice meditation and are entrenched in Eastern style mysticism, and who believe that man is inherently good. The Bible teaches that we are fallen creations, that this world too is fallen (as can be easily perceived by just watching the news), and that we must be regenerated by accepting Christ as our saviors to receive newness of life. Of note this is actually one of the ways the Antichrist is going to succesfully deceive so many people of differing faiths, and rally them to his evil cause, getting them to accept and incorporate Eastern style meditation into their belief system.

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings, AAK

Did you read my whole post?
I am asking because the sentences which immediately follow the sentence you highlighted in red give the answer to your question:



Certainly what occured was a change in the relationship between God and humanity!


Whether people are worse today is debatable and probably doesn’t belong here.

As for your comments about sin, you are right. Sin has not been removed. Our God-given freedom to make our own choices remains in place.
Sin will not be eradicated until the final day of judgement.

The point is not whether we still sin or not … clearly we do!
The point is that with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us we have access to his comfort, his guidance, his conviction. Whether we use it as much as we should or could is a different matter.

Salaam

Thanks for the response Glo!

Though I was wondering, how come God was close to Abraham, Moses, Solomon and etc, without them having gotten rid of their original sin through Jesus (pbuaot)

I mean if origin sin was such a big killer, wouldn't God have sent Prophets AFTER Jesus because now they were closer to God.

[Oleander]

[QUOTE=Fedos;1099475]No, I think the scripture you're referring to is the one where Jesus says, 'Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin' (ie not the servant of God) in Saint John. And that's true. If you're still committing trespasses then you aren't serving God.



>>>Right, and if you're not serving God, it's fair to say,serving satan?

[mkh4JC]

>>>Right, and if you're not serving God, it's fair to say,serving satan?

Well, this would be true of anyone who is still committing trespasses. The important distinction that can be made in a Christian's life though is that, if they fall into sin, at least they know what it is like to serve and live holy before God, while all the sinner knows is sin.

[glo]

>>>But your own book tell's you if you accept Jesus and kept on sinning, you are NOT from God, but from the devil, which means you accept the devil, not God.

Greetings, Oleander

I didn't know if I would find it and it took me a little while of searching ... but in the end I did.
You are indeed right. In one of his letters John writes this about those who sin:

But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
[...]
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

(1 John 3:5-6;9-10)

Quite scathing, eh?

I am not sure who John is addressing, and why he might choose such harsh words.
It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of other Christians on this.

It seems to me that John's expectations of himself and his fellow humans is quite unrealistic.
The very premise of the Christian faith is that 'we are all sinners and we all fall short of God's glory'. The idea that anybody could obtain God's approval in his own strength alone is unthinkable!
According to the Christians faith nobody (except for Jesus alone) lives a sinful live - not even those we would consider 'saintly', not even the prophets themselves (Just read the OT and find out for yourself how often they stumbled!)

What John seems to be saying reminds me of what I wrote in my earlier post:
"Here we are; Jesus died for us; we have salvation through him; we have the promise of the Holy Spirit living in us, guiding us and comforting us … and yet we don't seem to be able to reach beyond our own human desires to use that wonderful Spirit of God!"

Paul often speaks about the battle between our human nature and God's will for our lives.
Both Christians and Muslims fully understand the concept of the spiritual battle/jihad between sin and God … we live it and fight it daily!

So to comment on your above statement, I would say that when we deny or refuse to obey God's Spirit within us, we are indeed at risk of succumbing to the Enemy.

Just later on in his letter John then goes on to say this :

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."
(1 John 3: 24-25)

That is the promise we have - to continue to love and believe in Jesus, and to have God's Spirit dwell within us!

Peace