The Sign of Muhammad in Deuteronomy

**SpaceFalcon2001** · 03-16-2005

Sorry Ansar, Pulling Deuteronomy 18 just won't fly.

Claim: The Torah Itself Predicts Mohammed as a Prophet
Many Muslims will claim that the Torah itself (apparently the "uncorrupted" part) predicts the coming of their so-called prophet some time after the giving of the Torah. All Bible translations are directly from the Hebrew, all of them literal.
Where Did They Get That Idea?
The relevant verse of the Torah is as follows:

Deuteronomy 18:18 A prophet I will raise up for them from amongst their brethren like you and I will give my words into his lips and he will speak about them all that I command him.

We must ask the following: who is "I", who is "you", who is "them/their"? "I" is G-d, "you" is Moses, "them/their" refers to the Israelites.

So a paraphrase could be: G-d will raise up for the Israelites a prophet from the Israelites' brethren some time in the future that will be like Moses and speak the words of G-d.

Having established that, what's the connection?

The assertion is that "from amongst their brethren" refers to the Ishmaelites, and as Muslims assert many times, Mohammed is descended from Abraham through Ishmael.

In order to properly analyze this, I will not make a table comparing Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, as many do on both Christian and Muslim websites in order to pervert the meaning of this verse.

Instead, I will make a minor sidestep into the world of Jewish thought.

For those of us that do not have the presumption that the Torah is wrong and faulty, there is a list of thirteen basic rules on how to deduce meaning from the Torah. They are provided as the introduction to Sifre, and are recited in the preliminary portion of the daily morning prayers.

Just as in the Torah where there are laws that are obviously "just" and those that we cannot comprehend, a parallel applies here. Some rules make sense, and others are assertions of rules. I will make use of two rules that make a good deal of sense.

Rule number 2 states quite simply "mig'zerah shavah" which means "From a decree of equality".

Rule number 12 is that "davar halamed m'inyano, v'davar halamed m'sofo" which is often translated like "An item is taught/clarified from it's context, or from nearby verses."

Why these two rules? Rule number 2 tells us that if we have a word in one location that is vague, and the same word elsewhere more clear, we can use one to clarify the other. The reason for the second rule will be evident shortly.
The Rebuttal

Just a chapter back, in Deuteronomy 17, we find a similar phrase, but the voice is different. This time Moses is delivering a message from G-d directly to the Israelites, speaking to the Israelites as a single group, instead of us hearing what G-d says to Moses.

Deuteronomy 17:15 You shall put (appoint) upon yourself a king that G-d will pick him; from amongst your brethren you shall appoint a king; you will not be able to give upon yourself a foreign man that is not your brother.

This verse, just a chapter behind the verse about the prophet is quite explicit. It uses the phrase "amongst (their/your) brethren" and then clarifies that a foreigner, which is definitely a non-Israelite, is not the Israelite's brother.

For further explicitness of the term foreigner, let's turn to Exodus 12.

Exodus 12:43 And G-d said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance of the Passover offering, every son of a foreigner shall not eat of it.

Conclusion
Since we can now see that a foreigner does not take part of something as central as the Passover celebration, which is incumbant on all Israelite males when the Temple stands, we can see that a foreigner is simply a non-Israelite, and it doesn't matter their genealogy.

That being said, we have also shown that a foreigner is someone who is not from "amongst the brethren" of the Israelites.

This being said, it is an incredible leap of both faith and logic to assume that Mohammed the Ishmaelite is predicted by the Torah as coming as a new prophet of a new religion for the Jews.

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · 03-16-2005

SpaceFalcon,
I read this article before on messiahtruth. I'll comment on it insha'allah.

The Rebuttal

Just a chapter back, in Deuteronomy 17, we find a similar phrase, but the voice is different. This time Moses is delivering a message from G-d directly to the Israelites, speaking to the Israelites as a single group, instead of us hearing what G-d says to Moses.

Deuteronomy 17:15 You shall put (appoint) upon yourself a king that G-d will pick him; from amongst your brethren you shall appoint a king; you will not be able to give upon yourself a foreign man that is not your brother.

This verse, just a chapter behind the verse about the prophet is quite explicit. It uses the phrase "amongst (their/your) brethren" and then clarifies that a foreigner, which is definitely a non-Israelite, is not the Israelite's brother.

In the translation that you gave me, SpaceFalcon, I found the following:
Devarim 17:14. When you come to the land the Lord, your God, is giving you, and you possess it and live therein, and you say, "I will set a king over myself, like all the nations around me,"

15. you shall set a king over you, one whom the Lord, your God, chooses; from among your brothers, you shall set a king over yourself; you shall not appoint a foreigner over yourself, one who is not your brother.

According to the article, this is used as evidence that "brethren" can only refer to one from among the Israelites. "brethren" is being defined by the word "foreigners" which in turn is being defined by one "who is noot your brother".

So this is really a logical loop. Because if brethren is understood to be Ishmaelites, then they would not be foreigners becuase they would be brethren!

Also, it doesn't really matter how many times "brethren" refers to Isrealites, the question is could it refer to Ishmaeilites?

So I don't think Messiahtruth has refuted anything on this issue, as of yet.

About the Prophecy:

Was the first born son of Abraham (Ishmael) and his descendants included in God's covenant and promise? A few verses from the Bible may help shed some light on this question;

1) Genesis 12:2-3 speaks of God's promise to Abraham and his descendants before any child was born to him.

2) Genesis 17:4 reiterates God's promise after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac.

3) In Genesis, ch. 21. Isaac is specifically blessed but Ishmael was also specifically blessed and promised by God to become "a great nation" especially in Genesis 21:13, 18.

4) According to Deuteronomy 21:15-17 the traditional rights and privileges of the first born son are not to be affected by the social status of his mother (being a "free" woman such as Sarah, Isaac's mother, or a "Bondwoman" such as Hagar, Ishmael's mother). This is only consistent with the moral and humanitarian principles of all revealed faiths.

5) The full legitimacy of Ishmael as Abraham's son and "seed" and the full legitimacy of his mother, Hagar, as Abraham's wife are clearly stated in Genesis 21:13 and 16:3. After Jesus, the last Israelite messenger and prophet, it was time that God's promise to bless Ishmael and his descendants be fulfilled. Less than 600years after Jesus, came the last messenger of God, Muhammad, from the progeny of Abraham through Ishmael. God's blessing of both of the main branches of Abraham's family tree was now fullfilled. But are there additional corroborating evidence that the Bible did in fact foretell the advent of prophet Muhammad?

*

MUHAMMAD:
The Prophet Like Unto Moses

Long time after Abraham, God's promise to send the long-awaited Messenger was repeated this time in Moses' words.
In Deuteronomy 18:18, Moses spoke of the prophet to be sent by God who is:

1) From among the Israelite's "brethren", a reference to their Ishmaelite cousins as Ishmael was the other son of Abraham who was explicitly promised to become a "great nation".

2) A prophet like unto Moses. There were hardly any two prophets ,who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad. Both were given comprehensive law code of life, both encountered their enemies and were victors in miraculous ways, both were accepted as prophets/statesmen and both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlooks not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well (e.g. the natural birth, family life and death of Moses and Muhammad but not of Jesus, who was regarded by His followers as the Son of God and not exclusively a messenger of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslim belief Jesus was).

*

THE AWAITED PROPHET WAS TO COME FROM ARABIA

Deuteronomy 33:1-2 combines references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran. According to Genesis 21:21, the wilderness of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia, specifically Mecca).

Indeed the King James version of the Bible mentions the pilgrims passing through the valley of Ba'ca (another name of Mecca) in Psalms 84:4-6.

Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar? According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.

*

MUHAMMAD'S MIGRATION FROM MECCA TO MEDINA:
PROPHECIED IN THE BIBLE?

Habakkuk 3:3 speaks of God (God's help) coming from Te'man (an Oasis North of Medina according to J. Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible), and the holy one (coming) from Paran. That holy one who under persecution migrated from Paran (Mecca) to be received enthusiastically in Medina was none but prophet Muhammad.
Indeed the incident of the migration of the prophet and his persecuted followers is vividly described in Isaiah 21:13-17. That section foretold as well about the battle of Badr in which the few ill-armed faithful miraculously defeated the "mighty" men of Ke'dar, who sought to destroy Islam and intimidate their own folks who turned -to Islam.

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · 03-16-2005

For a muslim response on Devarim/Deuteronomy 18:
http://www.answering-christianity.co...s_rebuttal.htm

**yoshiyahu** · 03-16-2005

Hi Ansar,

Descendants of Ishmael would be considered as Cousins, not Brothers. But I think that is a relatively minor point in the whole debate. The text, as a whole, speaks of prophets in general. There is one prophet who fulfilled, word for word, the conditions of the text, and that was Joshua. I am writing an article on this actually. I'll see if I can finish it tonight, and then post it here in the thread.

**SpaceFalcon2001** · 03-16-2005

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

In the translation that you gave me, SpaceFalcon, I found the following:
Devarim 17:14. When you come to the land the Lord, your God, is giving you, and you possess it and live therein, and you say, "I will set a king over myself, like all the nations around me,"

15. you shall set a king over you, one whom the Lord, your God, chooses; from among your brothers, you shall set a king over yourself; you shall not appoint a foreigner over yourself, one who is not your brother.

According to the article, this is used as evidence that "brethren" can only refer to one from among the Israelites. "brethren" is being defined by the word "foreigners" which in turn is being defined by one "who is noot your brother".

So this is really a logical loop. Because if brethren is understood to be Ishmaelites, then they would not be foreigners becuase they would be brethren!

Also, it doesn't really matter how many times "brethren" refers to Isrealites, the question is could it refer to Ishmaeilites?

In fact, it could not. Just as a Muslim is not seen as a Jew, he is not a brother in that sense. We are related through Abraham, but not through the Covenant of Moses, that passes through Isaac and Jacob. A king of Israel is bound by the laws of the Torah, a Muslim/Ishmaelite is not. Thus, a king may only come from those who are Israelites.

As you might recall when I showed what HaShem said concerning Ishmael, he would be made into a great nation, but it would be a seperate nation from that of Isaac, the one who's children would recieve the covenant, and we can see that Ishmaelites were a nation outside of Israel.

**yoshiyahu** · 03-16-2005

Ansar, here is a verse from the Torah that indicates that "brethren" equates with "Israelites" in the Mosaic Covenant.

Deuteronomy 17:14-15.

When ... you say "Let us set a king over us like the nations around us, "be sure to appoint over you the king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Israelite.

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · 03-16-2005

Yoshiyahu, that is the very verse I was responding to. You can scroll back to read my response. Two points on that verse:
1. this is really a logical loop. Because if brethren is understood to be Ishmaelites, then they would not be foreigners becuase they would be brethren!
2. Even if this verse clarifies brethren as only being Israelites, it does not mean that it cannot take on different meanings in a different conteext, as it does in many other verses.

Could brethren refer to Ishmaelites?
Brown's Hebrew lexicon states that the hebrew word can refer to an indefinite relative or kin in a wider way, like cousins.
In Deuteronomy 2:4, 8, 'brethren' was used in conjunction with the Edomites, who were basically their cousins.

For more info:
http://www.answering-christianity.co...s_rebuttal.htm

Also, who do Jews think this refers to?

**yoshiyahu** · 03-16-2005

Greetings Ansar, I don't have time to look up your reference right now, but I will tommorrow. Here is part of the article I am working on. It is not finished, but it will explain my POV on this issue.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Let us first examine the text

A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the L-rd, your G-d will set up for you you shall hearken to him... I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him (Devarim 18:15,18-19, Judaica Press Translation)

The question now is whether the text refers to a specific prophet, or simply prophets in general. The answer is both. The text refers to an Israelite, as it says "from among their brothers, like you". Here, Moses identifies the prophet(s) as being Israelite by the term brothers (cross-reference Devarim 17:14-15), and reinforces this when he says "like you." However, the verse does not speak of a single prophet in paticular. It simply speaks of "a prophet";it could be similarly be paraphrased as "G-d will send you prophets and put words into their mouths...."

Continuing in the same manner of verses 18 & 19, verses 20-22 speak of false prophets, but no one assumes that it is speaking of a specific person! However, let us hypothetically assume that this proof-text does indeed refer to a single person. If, hypothetically, the text did refer to a single person, it could only be Yehoshua (Joshua) ben Nun - Moses' successor.

No man shall be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I
was with Moshe, so I will be with thee [Yehoshua]: I will not fail thee
nor forsake thee. Yehoshua 1:5

And HaShem said to Yehoshua, This day will I begin to magnify thee in the
sight of all Yisra'el, that they may know that, as I was with Moshe, so
I will be with thee. Yehoshua 3:7

Yehoshua was an Israelite successor of Moses chosen by G-d, fulfilling the requirements of verse 15. He taught the will of HaShem to the people, fulfilling the requirements of verse 18.

In summary, this proof-text can refer to any Israelite prophet. It does not refer to a single prophet in specific, nor is there any indication that it is a messianic prophecy. However, if it was to speak of a single prophet, the requirements of the text were fulfilled by Moses' successor, Yehoshua.

**yoshiyahu** · 03-16-2005

Greetings Asnar,

Do you have another site with a similar article? I do not visit that site because it promotes false information about Jewish beliefs. (Specifically, it claims that raping 3-year olds is allowed in Judaism - which is contrary to all of Torah and Talmud. See: http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/three.html)

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · 03-16-2005

I know the site is useless, but it is the only website that is posting that article. The article is not done by the person who runs that website.

So I suggest just looking at the article.

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · 03-16-2005

I'll comment on your POV tomorrow insha'Allah.

Peace be with you, brother!

**أحمد** · 03-16-2005

yoshiyahu

Just out of curiosity; what does the alef of your avatar stand for?

PS: I'm only curious, I don't think you've been asked that question before either, also I wonder how many people on this forum can actually read hebrew anyway . . . :zip:

**SpaceFalcon2001** · 03-16-2005

1, that's me, sorta.

Anyway א (Aleph) is the first letter of the hebrew alphabet.

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · 03-17-2005

Yoshiyahu,
You said that it does not refer to a single prophets, but rather many to come.

However, I assume that you would say that, the best single candidate amongst the Prophets would be yusha bin Nun?

Well, I agree with the Jews who say we should analyze the Torah according to the Torah.

So let's examine the following:

Devarim 33:1-2 And this is the blessing with which Moses, the man of God, blessed the children of Israel [just] before his death.

He said: "The Lord came from Sinai and shone forth from Seir to them; He appeared from Mount Paran and came with some of the holy myriads; from His right hand was a fiery Law for them

This verse speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran.

Where is paran?
Genesis 21:21 21. And he dwelt in the desert of Paran, and his mother took for him a wife from the land of Egypt.
This is talking about Prophet Ishmael whom we know was sent to Mecca with his mother. Therefore, the wilderness of Pran is Arabia, and specifically Mecca.

Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar? According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.

So if we analyze this, it makes it more claer that Yusha could not be the expected Prophet.

What's more, if we compare Moses and Muhammad we find more simmilarities. I don't need to post the charts that you have obviously seen, but we can examine Yusha bin Nun and see if he fits the Prophecy.

Devarim shows us that this Prophet whom God will bring will speak God's words and give commands in God's name. We have no evidence that Yusha brought any new revelation or laws. He only followed the laws of Prophet Moses. Judaism holds Yusha several degrees below Prophet Moses in significance and status. Prophet Muhammad is the only one who made such a revoloution like Prophet Moses.

And finally, ) Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:
"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned saying, ‘Read this, I pray thee’; and he saith, ‘I am not learned’.

"When Archangel Gabriel commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying ‘Iqra’, he replied "I am not learned".

Based on the above, I find it very hard to believe that this prophecy referred to Moses supporter and follower, Yusha bin Nun. I find it much more believable that it refers to Prophet Muhammad.

**SpaceFalcon2001** · 03-17-2005

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

He said: "The Lord came from Sinai and shone forth from Seir to them; He appeared from Mount Paran and came with some of the holy myriads; from His right hand was a fiery Law for them

This verse speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran.

Where is paran?

As written in a midrash:
Verse 2 states that God came to Israel from Seir and Paran, which, as the Midrash records, recalls that God had offered the Torah to the decendants of Esau, who dwelled in Seir, and to the Ishmaelites, who dwelled in Paran, both of whom refused to accept the Torah because it was not in line with their ways. Then, accompanied by some of His myriads of holy angels, God came and offered His firey Torah to the Israelites, who submitted themselves to His sovereignty and accepted His Torah without question or qualification.
Thus, as the only nation worthy of receiving the Torah -- and indeed the only nation that accepted it as an eternal heritage -- Israel is supremely worthy of Moses' blessing. Sforno adds that Moses made this point as a source of merit for Israel, so that God would fulfill His blessings.
--------------
and as written by the Ramban:
In these introductory remarks, Moses incorperated three outstanding merits of Israel: (a) God dwells among them; (b) they accepted His Torah; and (c) they acknowledged His sovereignty.

Devarim shows us that this Prophet whom God will bring will speak God's words and give commands in God's name. We have no evidence that Yusha brought any new revelation or laws. He only followed the laws of Prophet Moses.

Giving commands is not the same as bringing more commandments. Joshua successfully lead the Israelites throughout caanan through many battles, many commands were issues.

New laws and revelations cannot be introduced.

Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)

Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. (Deut 4:2)

Keep them to perform [them] as the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside either to the right or to the left. (Deut 5:29)

Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy G-d, and keep His charge, and His statutes, and His judgments, and His commandments, always

The Torah may never be changed, it is eternal.

**أحمد** · 03-18-2005

Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001

1, that's me, sorta.

Anyway א (Aleph) is the first letter of the hebrew alphabet.

I didn't mean in that way, because I have studied hebrew . . .

I meant what does the word stand for . . .

**SpaceFalcon2001** · 03-18-2005

Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed

I didn't mean in that way, because I have studied hebrew . . .

I meant what does the word stand for . . .

His sig says Shalom! How can you study hebrew and not recogize the word for hello, goodbye, and peace?!

**yoshiyahu** · 03-18-2005

Hi Ahmed!

It doesn't stand for anything in paticular. Over the past few weeks I've been changing my avatars to something with a Hebrew letter.

Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed

yoshiyahu

Just out of curiosity; what does the alef of your avatar stand for?

PS: I'm only curious, I don't think you've been asked that question before either, also I wonder how many people on this forum can actually read hebrew anyway . . . :zip:

**yoshiyahu** · 03-18-2005

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

However, I assume that you would say that, the best single candidate amongst the Prophets would be yusha bin Nun?

Yusha = Joshua (English) or Yehoshua (Hebrew), right?

If so, I would say that yes, Joshua/Yehoshua/Yusha most definetely fits the conditions set in Duet 18.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

So if we analyze this, it makes it more claer that Yusha could not be the expected Prophet.

I don't understand how those passages are relevant to the Deut. 18 passage which we are discussing.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

What's more, if we compare Moses and Muhammad we find more simmilarities. I don't need to post the charts that you have obviously seen, but we can examine Yusha bin Nun and see if he fits the Prophecy.

Actually, I've only seen one chart comparing Moses, Muhammed, and Jesus (which was from a Christian POV). I wouldn't mind viewing one from a Muslim POV.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Devarim shows us that this Prophet whom God will bring will speak God's words and give commands in God's name. We have no evidence that Yusha brought any new revelation or laws.

Where does it say that the prophet will give additional laws? However, there is evidence that Joshua gave the Israelite people commands:

Hashem told Moses "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man who has the Spirit of Hashem on him, and ordain him. Present him to Elazar the High Priest and all of the Congregation of Israel, and instate him as they watch. Impart some of your splendor to him, so that all the Congregation of Israel will obey him." (Numbers 27:18-20)

In this verse, the actions done were so that "the congregation of Israel will obey him".

I believe that some things done in Judaism today were given by the Prophet Joshua. I will ask my Rabbi about this to be sure.

**yoshiyahu** · 03-20-2005

Hi! THis was the reply I recieved.

The one thing that comes immediately to my mind is the
rule which the Jewish People took on themselves at the
beginning of his leadership, that anyone who would
disobey his command (as a righteous Jewish King) would
be liable to the death penalty.

Also the "Aleinu" prayer in every Jewish prayer
service is from the time of Yehoshua