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Mercy and Admonishment

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    Mercy and Admonishment

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    (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    (Peace be upon you)

    I think as a Muslim we have to be careful when we talk about the Bible because ultimately what happened therein describes what God did but we should not conflate it with God wanting also that outcome - God has always wanted sinners to know that God can forgive any and all sins with sincere forgiveness and repentance and that there is no sin in the world that cannot be encompassed by God's mercy.

    Jesus was not a Christian; he was a Jewish Rabbi. He followed the Mosaic law about not eating pig's meat. He subscribed to the the Mosaic law about punishing adulterers even though he showed through his mercy as the punishment was being carried out on a woman. Ultimately, what he did want to do is not abrogate the Torah but by going to the spirit of its substance to arrive at its essence. Jesus was sent to make the Jews understand that they should desist from hypocrisy, false pride, and show. And Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) arrived to make a continuity of that Message. The aim of shariah (Islamic law) is primarily mercy, which you as a scholar should know better than myself @Huzaifah ibn Adam

    Talking about homosexuals/lesbians as you have continued to do is not befitting a scholar as you should also know that while shariah (Islamic law) forbids illegal intercourse (whether in heterosexual or homosexual sex), God has not appointed you as a judge over them to condemn people who do identify as having same-sex feelings. In fact, because of posts like yours and other posts, I'm going to InshaAllah (God-willing) create a thread on shariah (Islamic law) because I think people like you misunderstand what it is that we as mankind have been sent to do. And I find it sad that I have to do this because as a scholar you're supposed to be teaching me better, not me attempting to do the opposite as a Muslim layperson.

    (And peace be upon you)
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy



    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    I think as a Muslim we have to be careful when we talk about the Bible because ultimately what happened therein describes what God did but we should not conflate it with God wanting also that outcome
    Strange you say that. Please see the quote once again:
    format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam View Post
    Ezekiel 5:15
    So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it.

    Ezekiel 25:17 (NKJV) I will execute great vengeance on them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I lay My vengeance upon them."



    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    - God has always wanted sinners to know that God can forgive any and all sins with sincere forgiveness and repentance and that there is no sin in the world that cannot be encompassed by God's mercy.
    Yes, this is true. There is a fine balance between showing mercy and admonishing the sinners. You are equating any kind of admonition as hate. That is not true. Admonishing the sinners is a kind of mercy for them, to save them from the everlasting fire. It is also a mercy for the society as whole, it saves the society from evil.

    See what Allah says in Surah Al-Furqan:

    And those who do not invoke with Allah another deity or kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed], except by right, and do not commit unlawful sexual intercourse. And whoever should do that will meet a penalty. [25:68]
    Multiplied for him is the punishment on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein humiliated - [25:69]

    and then in the next Ayah Allah says:

    Except for those who repent, believe and do righteous work. For them Allah will replace their evil deeds with good. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. [25:70]

    As you can see, admonition comes before declaring mercy, otherwise nobody would stop from sin. Your attitude seems more like an encouragement to sin by disguising it as mercy and love for the sinner.



    What if I say as an admin here that I hate spam, and I hate unnecessary cross-gender PMs and idle chit-chat, but I don't hate the spammers and I will not ban them nor will I infract them, do you think this is going to work? No. We have to set the rules, and we have to warn about them, and at the same time we consider each violation based on the circumstances and the person committing them. New and vulnerable members are not treated the same as old offending members.
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy

    (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    (Peace be upon you)

    @ibn-Adam

    My response to our IB scholar has a context. And the context lies in this thread and you can read his posts there. And I respectfully completely disagree with you: Mercy comes before admonition; you cannot selectively quote from the Quran when Allah Himself says of Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), "And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds." Whose character is that we're supposed to emulate in Islam? Also, does the Quran not say (3:159) of Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), "So by mercy from Allah , [O Muhammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you."

    I do not equate all admonition as hate but you should read that thread which led me to write here as I did. Also, we cannot save anyone from the Fire or lead anyone to Paradise. Does Allah not say in the Quran (28:56): "Surely you cannot guide whom you love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way"?

    People take the concept of "enjoining good and forbidding evil" too far, and they are ill-aware of the consequence of their words; and scholars should be more mindful of their words than laypersons (though all of us should be equally mindful).

    Also, I should remind you and everyone (including myself) that we'll be all judged for our own actions individually, and on Judgment Day scholars will be judged second after martyrs.

    Also, I'd like to convey an authentic hadith (prophetic tradition) in Bukhari: On the Day of Reckoning a religious scholar is cast into hell. People he knows say to him, 'While in the world you communicated the commandments of the religion. Why has this torment befallen you?' And he will say; 'I told people not to sin, but sinned myself. And I did not do those things I told them to do. I am being punished for that.'”

    I'd also like to clarify that while I do have every respect for our IB scholar, I do think we should remember that we're not (any of us no matter how religious or how many rakats of Tahajjud we've been praying) safe from arrogance and also being judgmental of sinners; my objection is not to any person straightforwardly telling any person that the acts within homosexuality is haram (forbidden). That is fundamentally true; no one, to the best of my knowledge, here or elsewhere on IB denies that as a fact from Islam. However, my problem is with people looking down on such sinners and also equating them with evil when there is more evil in our own selves for which we should be concerned than looking to condemn a group of people who already feel the harshness of judgment in society; we should be encouraging people with same-sex feelings to refrain from their sins and also seeing that we would be better able to assist such persons with their inclination to sin if we came from a place of understanding and compassion. We have on IB an individual who had reverted to Islam, and he was a person with homosexual feelings; I don't think he's any longer active, but I can't imagine him or any guest who might be having the same inclination reading such posts on IB and feeling that Islam has no place for him when that is clearly not true because Islam has a place for every human being no matter how much of a sinner he/she is because Allah loves to forgive us our sins.

    Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: Treat people with ease and do not be hard on them; give them glad tidings and do not make them run away (from Islam).”

    Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: A man utters a word pleasing to Allah without considering it of any significance for which Allah exalts his ranks (in Jannah); another one speaks a word displeasing to Allah without considering it of any importance, and for this reason he will sink down into Hell.

    (And peace be upon you)
    Last edited by Search; 08-23-2016 at 06:31 AM.
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy

    ^ Yes, I have seen that thread and I'm fully aware of the context that you are speaking from.

    I'm not selectively quoting from Quran. If you read the Quran, you'll find whenever there is a mention of a sin, Allah warns of the punishment and consequences, and then says those who repent they'll be forgiven.

    Allah's Mercy precedes His Warth, but at the same time, it is important for someone in authority to warn people of the consequences of their misdeeds.

    We cannot say that Allah is Merciful so do as you please. We have to tell the world that sins will be punished and at the same time, we have to tell them that if they repent, they will be forgiven and they will have double reward.
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy

    Please do not edit your posts after a reply has been posted. You can address new points in a new post.
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy

    (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    (Peace be upon you)


    format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam View Post
    ^ Yes, I have seen that thread and I'm fully aware of the context that you are speaking from.

    I'm not selectively quoting from Quran. If you read the Quran, you'll find whenever there is a mention of a sin, Allah warns of the punishment and consequences, and then says those who repent they'll be forgiven.

    Allah's Mercy precedes His Warth, but at the same time, it is important for someone in authority to warn people of the consequences of their misdeeds.

    We cannot say that Allah is Merciful so do as you please. We have to tell the world that sins will be punished and at the same time, we have to tell them that if they repent, they will be forgiven and they will have double reward.
    Again, I respectfully disagree with you on the above points because the defining characteristic of the Quran is also mercy.

    Allah says (Quran 10:57), "Mankind there has come to you a guidance from your Lord and a healing for (the diseases) in your hearts, and for those who believe a guidance and a mercy."

    Allah says (Quran 17:82), "And We reveal of the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to the believers, and it adds only to the perdition of the unjust."

    Allah says (Quran 41:44), "And declare (O Muhammad) that [the Quran] is a guidance and healing for the believers."

    Allah says (Quran 9:14), "And shall heal the breast of the believers."

    Also, the Quran says (39:53-54), "O ’Ibadi (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves Despair not of the Mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And turn in repentance and in obedience with true Faith (Islamic Monotheism) to your Lord and submit to Him, (in Islam), before the torment comes upon you, then you will not be helped." Here, Allah mentions transgression and then mentions Himself in the context of Forgiveness and Mercy.

    And Allah says in the Quran (3:135-136): “And those who, when they have committed fahishah (illegal sexual intercourse) or wronged themselves with evil, remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their sins; — and none can forgive sins but Allah — and do not persist in what (wrong) they have done, while they know. For such, the reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and Gardens with rivers flowing underneath (Paradise), wherein they shall abide forever. How excellent is this reward for the doers (who do righteous deeds according to Allah’s orders).” Again, Allah here mentions the specific sin of illegal intercourse and then the believer knows the proper course of action afterwards is to immediately remember Allah and ask forgiveness if the believer has committed that sin.

    That's why I said you're selectively quoting the Quran.

    More importantly, in Islam, we're to emulate the character of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) who was "a mercy to the worlds" (Quran 21:107). The Quran is not something to be recited from our throats but something which is meant to have a transformation occur in our characters and that transformation is to be merciful to others and harsh with ourselves because our nafs (ego) is the most evil and if we're not seeing that then something is seriously wrong with us because others are not more than evil than our own selves.

    My point has never been to say that we cannot say a sin is immoral or wrong or haram (forbidden); that is a given. We have to differentiate between haqq (truth) and baatil (falsehood). However, my problem is and has always been people condemning others and not talking about the mercy and forgiveness and reward of Allah in regards to sin when that is the first thing about which we should speak because a merciful attitude attracts people to Islam and a harsh attitude repels people from Islam.

    In the Quran, you'll find the following word repetitions which should tell us something about what we should be speaking more often:


    The expression "forgiveness" (mughfirah), which is one of the basic morals of the Quran, is repeated exactly 234 times, and the word "payment or reward" is repeated 117 times.

    "Reward" (ajr) and "action" (fail) are both repeated 107 times.

    "Love" (al-mahabbah) and "obedience" (al-ta'ah) also appear the same number of times: 83.

    The number of appearances of "right guidance" (al-huda) and "mercy" (al-rahma) is the same: 79.

    The words "paradise" and "hell" are each repeated 77 times.

    The expression "the righteous" (al-abraar) is used 6 times but "the wicked" (al-fujjaar) is used 3 times.


    And I don't think you've read my posts carefully in that thread because if you did, I think you'd be able to see that I have a specific concern which drives me posting as I did here and in that thread: I'd rather a person with same-sex tendencies even if he/she cannot refrain from illegal intercourse still retain his/her Islam and that we do not make these persons feel unwanted because we're all sinning and we should not deem ourselves fit to condemn others because their sins still does not make them unfit to be Muslims and our sins make us unfit to judge both their unique positions of being given a test which we cannot fathom and their sins. They can be forgiven, just as we can, because Allah is Great.

    Allah says in the Quran (12:53), "For man's very soul incites him to evil unless my Lord shows mercy."

    (And peace be upon you)
    Last edited by Search; 08-23-2016 at 07:23 AM.
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    I'd rather a person with same-sex tendencies even if he/she cannot refrain from illegal intercourse still retain his/her Islam and that we do not make these persons feel unwanted because we're all sinning and we should not deem ourselves fit to condemn others because their sins still does not make them unfit to be Muslims and our sins make us unfit to judge both their unique positions of being given a test which we cannot fathom and their sins. They can be forgiven, just as we can, because Allah is Great.
    Nobody is judging them here. Their actions are condemned. You are asking us to even stop displaying dislike to such actions. If you don't display dislike when a sin is mentioned, then it is clearly an encouragement to continue sinning.

    Even in the thread where this started, the OP links an article about non-Muslims, so your statement that it "make[s] them unfit to be Muslims" and that they can "still retain his/her Islam" is not at all relevant here. Why are you so concerned about condemning them? They are not going to come here and read that thread on IB when they have already got so much publicity in the news.



    I don't deny the fact that Islam, Qur'an and the Prophet is mercy for the mankind. But at the same time, public sins are meant to be publicly condemned. If you remain silent in the guise of being "tolerant", then who is going to teach them that their sinning is wrong? It is the duty of the scholars and those in authority. And the general public is also meant to show public dislike for sins, not remain silent.

    Of course, that does not mean ostracizing the sinners. They should be helped and encouraged to repent, not encouraged to sin. Nobody here is saying that they are "unfit to be Muslim".

    I feel you are crossing the line between showing mercy and admonishing the sinner by speaking against those who publicly express dislike for such sins. Showing mercy is to help them in correcting their ways and helping them in repenting, not in keeping silent about it.
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy

    (In the Name of the Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    (Peace be upon you)


    format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam View Post
    Nobody is judging them here.
    Our IB scholar's words in regards to them in the aforementioned thread said "despicable" clearly implying that they are so outright or used most likely as a descriptor for the homosexuals themselves, telling us that a person like this is "not a man," comparing them to gangs of "raping males," saying that "it is the duty of the scholar to spread such hatred." So, I completely disagree with you about nobody judging them here on IB. In fact, the entire thread was filled with judgment about them from our IB scholar. We should hold our scholars accountable to higher standards. If we set the bar high, then we benefit them and ourselves and others.

    Their actions are condemned.
    True. Let there be no doubt in anyone that illegal intercourse whether in homosexuality or heterosexuality is haram (forbidden).

    You are asking us to even stop displaying dislike to such actions.
    Tell me where if you're truthful and bring your proof.

    If you don't display dislike when a sin is mentioned, then it is clearly an encouragement to continue sinning.
    Disliking a sin is not the same as being hateful of a sinner. I hope you genuinely know what the difference is. While some may struggle being able to make that distinction, it is worth struggling in that way because the person struggling benefits the sinner and himself/herself. He benefits the sinner in preventing oppression from himself/herself, and he benefits himself/herself by preventing arrogance, malice, and hatred in taking a hold of himself/herself.

    Even in the thread where this started, the OP links an article about non-Muslims, so your statement that it "make[s] them unfit to be Muslims" and that they can "still retain his/her Islam" is not at all relevant here.
    Please kindly do not be tunnel-visioned: I hope you remember you yourself said in the "Thank you" thread that the number of visitors every month averages to about 150,000 persons. I'd say that there is a very good chance that some of the people who come here on IB identify themselves as homosexuals/lesbians, whether non-Muslim or Muslim. If they see a person of knowledge speaking like I've quoted above, how do you think they'd feel? Do you think they will feel they have a place left in Islam? Social media's reach today is not limited to just the "members" of IB, but it goes far beyond that, and nobody knows who is reading what. In fact, our sister Little_Lion's daughter identifies herself as lesbian. Do you think our IB scholar knew that when he posted the words he did? I certainly did not, and unless he's a mind-reader, I'm guessing he did not either.

    In fact, to prove to you the importance of what I've said, I am linking you to some past threads on IB about people identifying themselves as homosexual/lesbian (some of them who were Muslim, some of them who were non-Muslim newly looking into Islam):
    Being Gay and Muslim
    I'm ugly and gay. Why was God so unjust to me this way?
    Being gay and Islam
    IM Muslim n im Gay
    Is there a place for me in Islam as a lesbian woman

    I'm homosexual.Can I kill myself?

    Now, do you see how our words can matter and count, and why especially an Islamic scholar should not be so quick to judgment and be careful about how he's conveying the message (as should we all)? What would you rather have if these were your only two options: A person identifying as homosexual/lesbian becoming a murtad (apostate) believing that the attitude in Islam teaches hatred for something they believe they cannot control? OR a person identifying as homosexual/lesbian frequently committing illegal intercourse and sincerely repenting believing that the attitude in Islam leaves the doors of Allah's mercy and forgiveness open to them? I'd rather the latter; everyone deserves to be told that their sins will not prevent them from doors of Paradise and Allah's Pleasure as long as they seek forgiveness and sincerely repent for their sins and try their best to live righteous lives.

    Why are you so concerned about condemning them?
    Have you ever known homosexuals/lesbians? I have. And they're human beings. That's why I am so concerned.

    They are not going to come here and read that thread on IB when they have already got so much publicity in the news.
    It's not about that one individual thread; again, I ask you to sincerely reflect on the fact that there are people, Muslims and non-Muslims, and definitely some of them identify themselves as being homosexual/lesbian, who visit IB and you don't know what thread they're reading. While I am not lesbian or a homosexual, I had an opportunity to also meet a homosexual Muslim when I was an atheist who talked about his struggles with reconciling his faith and his identity. Again, this is not about the news article; this is about the judgmental mentality and hatred of homosexuals and lesbians that I saw on display rather than encouraging them to not sin. Finally, while I am a heterosexual woman, straight, that is, as to your point about the news article not being read here because there are other media outlets covering this story, I should like to mention that is irrelevant because you cannot know for sure that nobody will read that thread on IB who is a homosexual/lesbian, perhaps even Muslim, as a visitor on IB. And I should also like to mention a fact: While I became a member of IB in 2015, I used to read IB threads off and on for roughly four to five years before I became a member, and I bet you didn't know me then either, but I did exist, and I did read some threads.

    I don't deny the fact that Islam, Qur'an and the Prophet is mercy for the mankind. But at the same time, public sins are meant to be publicly condemned.
    There is no such thing as a "public sin" in terms of homosexuality or heterosexuality in regards to illegal intercourse because shari (legal) proof requires four witnesses. Everything else is suspicion or backbiting or slander.

    If you remain silent in the guise of being "tolerant", then who is going to teach them that their sinning is wrong?
    I have never said we should be silent. There is a differentiation we have to make between baatil (falsehood) and haqq (truth) but we cannot do it in the way our IB scholar has done, and we should not encourage him to do so either because I see it as harmful to the cause itself.

    It is the duty of the scholars and those in authority. And the general public is also meant to show public dislike for sins, not remain silent.
    See above.

    Of course, that does not mean ostracizing the sinners.
    And yet that is what happens and has been happening in all faith communities in regards to homosexuals/lesbians. They are "hated" and treated to "judgment."

    They should be helped and encouraged to repent, not encouraged to sin. Nobody here is saying that they are "unfit to be Muslim".
    No, they reach that conclusion all by themselves when they encounter intolerance from people who do not make a differentiation between sin and the sinner.

    I feel you are crossing the line between showing mercy and admonishing the sinner by speaking against those who publicly express dislike for such sins. Showing mercy is to help them in correcting their ways and helping them in repenting, not in keeping silent about it.
    I respectfully disagree with you, and here's why: We have to be merciful because that is the prophetic attitude towards sinners. Being merciful doesn't mean saying that haram (forbidden) is halal (permissible). Being merciful, however, means that we are the kind of persons whom people can go to for advice and that we do not turn people away from Islam due to our own prejudices against certain groups of people whose struggles we can never understand or with whom we can never empathize. They deserve our sympathy, not our judgment, not our prejudice, not our beratement in the guise of preventing their sins when it is clearly instead about believing erroneously that Quran desires us to hate them without making a distinction between their sins and them as sinners capable of attaining Allah's Forgiveness and Mercy.

    I hope I now have sufficiently clarified my position.

    (And peace be upon you)
    Last edited by Search; 08-23-2016 at 12:10 PM.
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    Our IB scholar's words in regards to them in the aforementioned thread said "despicable" clearly implying that they are so outright or used most likely as a descriptor for the homosexuals themselves, telling us that a person like this is "not a man," comparing them to gangs of "raping males," saying that "it is the duty of the scholar to spread such hatred." So, I completely disagree with you about nobody judging them here on IB. In fact, the entire thread was filled with judgment about them from our IB scholar. We should hold our scholars accountable to higher standards. If we set the bar high, then we benefit them and ourselves and others.
    If we speak out against Shirk saying there is no place for Shirk in Islam, and that Allah will punish mushrikeen in the Hereafter, would you consider it Shirko-phobic?

    If we speak out against zina calling it a major sin in Islam, would you consider it as heterophobic?

    If we speak out against interest and say it is an invitation of war against Allah and His Messenger, would you call it as hate against bankers?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    You are asking us to even stop displaying dislike to such actions.
    Tell me where if you're truthful and bring your proof.
    Speaking out against someone who publicly displays dislike for sin is asking us all to stop doing that. We wouldn't have all this discussion if you had not spoken out against showing dislike to sin.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    What would you rather have if these were your only two options: A person identifying as homosexual/lesbian becoming a murtad (apostate) believing that the attitude in Islam teaches hatred for something they believe they cannot control? OR a person identifying as homosexual/lesbian frequently committing illegal intercourse and sincerely repenting believing that the attitude in Islam leaves the doors of Allah's mercy and forgiveness open to them? I'd rather the latter; everyone deserves to be told that their sins will not prevent them from doors of Paradise and Allah's Pleasure as long as they seek forgiveness and sincerely repent for their sins and try their best to live righteous lives.
    We all agree with this. Nobody said the doors of forgiveness are closed.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    There is no such thing as a "public sin" in terms of homosexuality or heterosexuality in regards to illegal intercourse because shari (legal) proof requires four witnesses. Everything else is suspicion or backbiting or slander.
    There is. Anyone who publicly proclaims to be an active homosexual, and acts and behaves in that way, is also a sinner. Because it comes in a Hadith:

    Ibn 'Abbas (May Allah be pleased with them) said:
    The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) cursed those men who are effeminate, and women who imitate men.

    Another narration is: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) cursed men who copy women and cursed women who copy men. [Al-Bukhari].


    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    Being merciful doesn't mean saying that haram (forbidden) is halal (permissible). Being merciful, however, means that we are the kind of persons whom people can go to for advice and that we do not turn people away from Islam
    Agreed.
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    Re: Mercy and Admonishment

    Eish. Sister "Search" is very upset about my condemnation of homosexuality. Nevertheless, I will continue writing against it. We know what we have to do. It's the duty of every person to speak out against such crimes which are - as the Bible would say - "an abomination against God". However, many people do not do so. Hence, it becomes necessary for one person to take the duty upon himself to deliver the message and take the hatred of people that comes with it.

    Sister Search says that I am "turning them away from Islaam". That's not the case. I'm writing about what Islaam - and even the Old Testament - has to say about it. In fact, in my post: "Cherry Picking and the Fallacy of Selective Attention", very few words are from me. All I did was simply quote the Old Testament. So I am "spreading hatred and intolerance" by reading out the Old Testament to the people who accept it as a "Holy Book"?

    My post "Despicable." was in reference to those two Kuffaar who are homosexual sodomites and went to have surrogate children. They are destroying the lives of those children. They are not keeping their evil deeds to themselves; no, they have to bring innocent children into it, and mess up their lives, and perhaps as a result of it those children could grow up to become homosexuals themselves. I will say it again, without fear: "Despicable."

    -------------

    We will speak out against any and every sin. Those who commit the sin - whichever sin it may be that is being addressed - must repent. Every single human being (besides the Ambiyaa عليهم السلام) is a sinner. If I come out condemning drug-dealers and selling drugs, will that also be classed as "hate speech" and "spreading hatred and intolerance"?

    -------------------------

    On a side-note (because someone said that the Sharee`ah is based on mercy):

    The Sharee`ah (Divine Law) of Islaam is based upon Justice (`Adl). For example: A rapist rapes a woman. We cannot say "forgive him." He has violated her rights, oppressed her and harmed her. He must be killed. The Qaadhi (Islaamic Judge) will give the death penalty against him. The woman who was wronged must have her revenge. This is "Justice". No one has the right to deny her this justice. It will be an act of oppression against the male relatives of this poor woman to prevent them from killing the rapist in a manner he deserves.

    Islaam gives a great deal of emphasis to Justice. Justice, itself, is a Mercy.

    -------------------
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy

    (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    (Peace be upon you)

    format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam View Post
    If we speak out against Shirk saying there is no place for Shirk in Islam, and that Allah will punish mushrikeen in the Hereafter, would you consider it Shirko-phobic?

    If we speak out against zina calling it a major sin in Islam, would you consider it as heterophobic?

    If we speak out against interest and say it is an invitation of war against Allah and His Messenger, would you call it as hate against bankers?
    I haven't used the term homophobia; however, it is interesting to me that you're implying that term in the context of this conversation. That said, yes, our IB brother Huzaifah ibn Adam did display unwarranted prejudice towards homosexuals/lesbians, and I do not believe that prejudice is either conducive or helpful or even desirable to helping our brothers and sisters in either humanity or in our own faith to be turning away from sexual behaviors specific to homosexuality/lesbianism.

    Speaking out against someone who publicly displays dislike for sin is asking us all to stop doing that. We wouldn't have all this discussion if you had not spoken out against showing dislike to sin.
    My default position is to respect all human beings. That said, I will always speak out against anyone who displays prejudice in any of its forms; and I will not pay attention to whether the individual is the highest leader in all of the land or a scholar; because no one should be immunized from criticism. And the only reason that we're even having this discussion is because our IB scholar didn't simply say that sexual behaviors involved in homosexuality/lesbianism is haram (forbidden) but went farther and used specific discourse that was inaccurate ("raping males"), bigoted ("despicable"), and discriminatory ("it is the duty of a scholar to spread such hatred").

    We all agree with this. Nobody said the doors of forgiveness are closed.
    Glad to hear that except that was not said by our IB scholar Huzaifah ibn Adam until post #22 in the thread I'd referenced.

    There is. Anyone who publicly proclaims to be an active homosexual, and acts and behaves in that way, is also a sinner.
    What is an "active homosexual"? Does anyone of you even know here? One of the most common acts in homosexuality is mutual masturbation and not necessarily or even sodomy as most of you here erroneously seem to believe. How can a person act and behave like an "active homosexual" in such a way that the public understands him to be an "active homosexual"? In shariah (Islamic law), there is no such thing, I repeat, because 4 witnesses have to see anal penetration or there has to be an oral confession given to a judge. And even in the case of oral confession, that person is questioned to ensure that it is a voluntary confession, the person confessing is of sane mind, the person is physically mature, that the person understands what the punishment of such a confession is, and also, the confession has to be repeated a certain number of times to ensure again that the person's confession is entirely voluntary. Let me repeat that no one can know what sexual behaviors anyone practices within the privacy of his/her home, and as Muslims, we do not speculate as all such speculation is an evil.

    Because it comes in a Hadith:

    Ibn 'Abbas (May Allah be pleased with them) said:
    The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) cursed those men who are effeminate, and women who imitate men.

    Another narration is: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) cursed men who copy women and cursed women who copy men. [Al-Bukhari].
    First of all, this is a great misconception among the straight community that homosexuals or lesbians behave in ways that move across gendered lines. There are "masculine" homosexuals just as there are "feminine" lesbians and most of the time you will not be able to tell who is what. Only in Hollywood setups are fictional characters made to be so obviously one way. Real life, however, does not imitate art. Are there "feminine" homosexuals and "masculine" lesbians? Yes. However, most of the time, you cannot look at human beings and verify one way or the other if they are gay because you will not be able to tell. Moreover, transgender male or female and cross-dressers would fit that hadith (prophetic tradition) easily whereas there's little chance homosexuals and lesbians will categorically fit into this hadith (prophetic tradition).

    Moreover, we would need to define what "feminine" men are and what "masculine" women are: For example, we know that Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) would be awash with tears at the memory of him having buried his infant girl during jahilliyah (ignorance, when he had not converted to Islam). Moreover, we know from Seerah (biography), Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) were one day crying under the shade of a tree because they were fearful of Allah's punishment. So, being "emotional" as a man is not considered in Islam "feminine" behavior because as Muslims we're supposed to have our hearts moved when we think of Allah in any context.

    Secondly, Nusaybah bint Ka'ab shielded Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) fought with the sword enemies of Islam to protect him and was wounded in the Battle of Uhud. Also, al-Shafa' was appointed an inspector in Medina during the Caliphate of Umar (may Allah be pleased with him). So, participating in battles or working are also not "masculine" behaviors. Also, in Sahih Muslim, it is reported from Abu Salama Bin Abdur Rahman Bin Awf that they used to do cut their hair so to reduce the burden that is caused by hair. So, women cutting their hair short also is not definable as "masculine" in regards to this hadith (prophetic tradition) unless the intention is to specifically imitate men. And none can read intentions in the breasts of either man or woman but Allah.

    Agreed.
    Good.

    (And peace be upon you)
    Last edited by Search; 08-24-2016 at 10:29 PM.
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    Re: Mercy and Admonishment

    (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    (Peace be upon you)

    Hello. God-willing, you're doing well and this message is received by you in good health and good spirits.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam View Post
    Eish. Sister "Search" is very upset about my condemnation of homosexuality.
    You have to understand that if you'd simply said that illegal intercourse is haram (forbidden) whether in homosexuality or heterosexuality, we would not be having this conversation, because I'd have agreed with you. However, what upsets is not stating a fact from Islam. What upsets me is the specific disrespectful attitude you've shown to people who might be struggling with same-sex desires because you do not come from a place of compassion.

    Nevertheless, I will continue writing against it.
    That is your right and your choice; however, you must remember the hadith (prophetic tradition) "Such a time will come that scholars will be an element of mischief" (Abu Nuaim).

    We know what we have to do. It's the duty of every person to speak out against such crimes which are - as the Bible would say - "an abomination against God". However, many people do not do so. Hence, it becomes necessary for one person to take the duty upon himself to deliver the message and take the hatred of people that comes with it.
    As Muslims, I cannot count the number of times I've heard that Bible is "corrupted" and yet here you are as an Islamic scholar using the Bible as a reference to speak out against homosexuals/lesbians. Do you not see the irony of your position?

    No, on the contrary, most people constantly berate homosexuals/lesbians for being "evil," "twisted," an "abomination against God," and most of the time such people are Bible-thumping "Christians" who are not Christ-like. Yet you want to align yourself with people like that. Instead of speaking about how much pleasure any human being struggling with any desire (whether in homosexuality or heterosexuality) can attain in living a righteous life, you want to take a negative tone and demonize them for their struggles.

    Sister Search says that I am "turning them away from Islaam". That's not the case.
    How do you know you're not? Do you know who is reading your posts? Your post can be read anywhere in the world by anyone and you would not know that person but that person would know your words. Why do you think you should be above using better words and wisdom to approach their situations?

    I'm writing about what Islaam - and even the Old Testament - has to say about it.
    Really? Saying things like "despicable," "raping males," "it is the duty of the scholar to spread such hatred," is speaking about what Islam and the Old Testament has to say about it? That is you, specifically, making negative value judgments.

    Again, I hope you see the irony of using the Old Testament to bolster your position because Jeremiah 8:8 says, "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

    And the Quran says the following:

    "Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this)." (Quran 2:75)

    "So woe to those who write the 'scripture' with their own hands, then say, 'This is from Allah,' in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." (Quran 2:79)

    "There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, 'That is from Allah,' but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!" (Quran 3:78)

    Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us."

    In fact, in my post: "Cherry Picking and the Fallacy of Selective Attention", very few words are from me. All I did was simply quote the Old Testament.
    And people specifically told you that it is not a constructive thread; while some Christians' hypocrisy can be exposed through both your threads, your method and approach was called into question because as a scholar people see your job as calling people to the Truth (and not denigrating Christianity).

    So I am "spreading hatred and intolerance" by reading out the Old Testament to the people who accept it as a "Holy Book"?
    It all depends on your intention. And I don't know your intention. That said, I do know your methods. And they are not from the prophetic attitude.

    My post "Despicable." was in reference to those two Kuffaar who are homosexual sodomites and went to have surrogate children. They are destroying the lives of those children.
    That remains to be seen. That said, what would it have cost you to say that you hope these men and the children are are guided to Islam? Did you say that? Did you even hope for that in your heart? Don't answer that question to me; answer that question in your heart.

    They are not keeping their evil deeds to themselves; no, they have to bring innocent children into it, and mess up their lives, and perhaps as a result of it those children could grow up to become homosexuals themselves.
    That remains to be seen. See above.

    I will say it again, without fear: "Despicable."
    In today's times, people are running away from religion, and they are running away from religion, because as you once said yourself, this time has come to pass as said in a hadith (prophetic tradition): "Such a time will come to people that only the name of Islam and the image of the Quran will remain. Mosques will be prosperous on the outside, but will have no salvation in them. Their scholars will be the most evil under the sky. Corruption emerged from them and will return to them." (al-Bayhaqi)

    We will speak out against any and every sin. Those who commit the sin - whichever sin it may be that is being addressed - must repent. Every single human being (besides the Ambiyaa عليهم السلام) is a sinner. If I come out condemning drug-dealers and selling drugs, will that also be classed as "hate speech" and "spreading hatred and intolerance"?
    That would also include you being a sinner. That depends on how you're speaking about drug-dealers. If you're speaking about them in a way that is conducive to them reforming their life and coming back to Allah, then you're not "spreading hatred and tolerance."

    On a side-note (because someone said that the Sharee`ah is based on mercy):

    The Sharee`ah (Divine Law) of Islaam is based upon Justice (`Adl). For example: A rapist rapes a woman. We cannot say "forgive him." He has violated her rights, oppressed her and harmed her. He must be killed. The Qaadhi (Islaamic Judge) will give the death penalty against him. The woman who was wronged must have her revenge. This is "Justice". No one has the right to deny her this justice. It will be an act of oppression against the male relatives of this poor woman to prevent them from killing the rapist in a manner he deserves.

    Islaam gives a great deal of emphasis to Justice. Justice, itself, is a Mercy.
    Shariah is based in both justice and mercy. So, I agree. However, the essence of shariah is Divine Mercy, otherwise Allah would not have sent it as guidance to mankind as the Quran itself says.

    Taqabbal Allahu minna wa minkum (May Allaah accept it from you and us).

    (And peace be upon you)
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    My default position is to respect all human beings.
    Do you respect pedophiles who rape children? They also fall under the category of "human beings". What about a pedophile who rapes and kills his own children? Will you respect him?

    What about a rapist who rapes and kills someone close to you? Will you still respect him?

    If you say "yes", then there's no point in me discussing further. If you say "no", then why are you differentiating between these guys and homosexuals? What makes them unworthy of respect but the others worthy of respect? If you say "it's because they're harming other people while the homosexuals aren't harming anyone", then that isn't true. Homosexuality is Haraam; when they do it, they're opposing Allaah Ta`aalaa. The consequence of the sin of homosexuality is that the entire area is afflicted by `Adhaab (punishment) from Allaah Ta`aalaa (in many different forms). Allaah Ta`aalaa destroyed the entire towns of Sodom and Gomorrah because they were homosexuals. There is a narration which says that when Zinaa becomes rampant in a society, the rain is withheld. Zakaah, too; if people do not pay it, the rain is withheld. So sins can and do affect an entire community, not just the perpetrator.

    That said, every single person - `Aalim and non-`Aalim - commits sins. Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم clearly stated this in a Hadeeth. "All of the children of Adam are sinners, but the best of sinners are those who repent." Only Ambiyaa are sinless.

    So we are not saying the doors of repentance are closed; on the contrary, they're very wide open. For all of us.

    The fact is this: the whole world today has become pro homosexuality and homosexuals. It has become a crime to say that homosexuality is Haraam. Very soon the West will expect `Ulamaa to speak pro homosexuality as well. To say that it is permissible. To conduct gay marriages in the Masaajid. When such a lax, lackadaisical attitude exists regarding a particular sin/abomination, it must be spoken against far more intensely than would otherwise be the case. You need to pull people out of this idea that homosexuality is "okay". It's not. Those who commit sodomy have been cursed in the Hadeeth.

    The `Ulamaa must speak out against it much more, and harshly.
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy

    (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    (Peace be upon you)

    True, and I repeat herein, my default position is to respect all human beings.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam View Post
    Do you respect pedophiles who rape children?
    Do I respect the heinous action? No, brother. However, I do make a distinction between this person and the evil he's committed.

    Allah has said in the Quran (17:70), "And We have certainly honored the children of Adam."

    They also fall under the category of "human beings".
    All human beings, no matter how much of a "monster" they act, remain in the category of "human beings."

    What about a pedophile who rapes and kills his own children? Will you respect him?
    Does the action described herein shock me? Yes, brother. Is the action something I find unable to contemplate even? Yes, brother.

    However, do I respect this individual's humanness even in the face of his manifest evil? Yes, brother.

    You have to understand that as human beings we're all born in innocence which is why there is no sin written for children, but as adults, our actions are weighted according to intentions, and as adults, we commit evil because of nafs (ego), shaitaan (satan), dunya (world), and hawa (idle desires).

    Is salvation possible for even this human being despite his evil action? Yes, brother.

    You are the scholar, and since you are, please you tell me what is from wisdom (that which is not learned from the books) that you are able to take from this hadith (prophetic tradition) in Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 676:

    "There was a man who had heartlessly murdered ninety-nine people. Then, he felt remorse.

    He went to a learned man and told him about his past, explaining that he wished to repent, reform, and become a better person.

    "I wonder if Allah will pardon me?" he asked.

    For all his learning, the scholar was a man who had not been able to digest what he had learned.

    "You will not be pardoned," he said.

    "Then I may as well kill you, too," said the other.

    And kill him he did.

    He then found another worthy individual and told him that he had killed a hundred people.

    "I wonder," he said, "whether Allah will pardon me if I repent?"

    Being a truly wise man, he replied, "Of course you will be pardoned; repent at once. I have just one piece of advice for you: avoid the company of wicked people and mix with good people, for bad company leads one into sin:"

    The man expressed repentance and regret, weeping as he sincerely implored his Lord to pardon him.

    Then, turning his back on bad company, he set off to find a neighborhood where righteous people lived.

    On the way, his appointed hour arrived, and he died.

    The angels of punishment and of mercy both came to take away his soul.

    The angels of punishment said that as a sinful person he rightfully belonged to them, but the angels of mercy also claimed him, saying, "He repented and had resolved to become a good man. He was on his way to a place where righteous people live, but his appointed hour had come."

    A great debate ensued, and Gabriel was sent as an arbitrator to settle this affair.

    After hearing both sides he gave this verdict: "Measure the ground. If the spot where he died is closer to the good people, then he belongs to the angels of mercy, but if it is nearer to the wicked people, he will be given to the angels of punishment."

    They measured the ground. Because the man had just set out, he was still closer to the wicked.

    But because he was sincere in his repentance, the Lord moved the spot where he lay and brought it to just outside the city of the good people. That penitent servant was handed over to the angels of mercy."


    What about a rapist who rapes and kills someone close to you? Will you still respect him?
    Let's go back to the Seerah (biography) and see what the prophetic attitude is even in the face of manifest evil like you've described.

    Hind bint `Utbah went out with the army of Quraish in Uhud prompting them to her utmost to eradicate Muslims. When the pagan army fled away from Muslims at the beginning of the battle, she was very angry. On that day, she did not flee like the men had. On the other hand, she committed a very evil and repugnant act. In addition to mutilating the Muslim corpses, she approached Hamzah ibn `Andil-Muttalib and split open his belly and out of rancor and enmity to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), she pulled out his liver and chewed on it.

    At the end of the battle when the disbelievers won Muslims, Hind committed a very repugnant act. She began maiming the corpses of Muslims one by one. She was cutting ears and noses. She approached Hamzah ibn `Andil-Muttalib and split open his interior, she pulled out his liver and, out of rancor, she masticated it, but she spit it out as it tasted unpleasant to her.

    Can you imagine the distress of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him)? And yes, indeed, he (peace and blessings be upon him) was very distressed.

    Moreover, Hind went out with the disbelievers in Al-Ahzab battle and continued confronting Islam shortly before the opening of Mecca, even she refuse her husband attitude when he asked the people of Mecca to enter their homes seeking the protection of the prophet. Besides, she prompted people of Mecca to kill her husband as he acted submissively to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

    However, when she came to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to accept Islam, he (peace and blessings be upon him) accepted her Islam. If Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had stopped respecting her as a human being, she would never have been able to bring Islam.

    Forgiving a person who has wronged you or a wrongdoer who has harmed your family member is very, very, very hard. If I pretended to be a saint here to you or anyone, I'd surely be a liar. For sure, I would be shaken, and like any human being, I would probably want revenge and would be emotionally and mentally disturbed due to what's happened. I'd want the perpetrator punished. However, at the same time, I'd also know that my feelings do not determine Islam, but Islam should determine my feelings. Therefore, I'd still have to know that respecting human being is the default position in itself and the evidence for this is as follows:

    Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "All creatures are like Allah's family. The best one in the sight of Allah is he who treats his family well." (Bayhaqi).

    Inscribed on the sword of Prophet Muhammad were the words: "Forgive him who wrongs you; join him who cuts you off; do good to him who does evil to you, and speak the truth although it be against yourself."

    Also, is shirk (idolatry) not more heinous than any other sin a person commits in the world? Yet Qais ibn Sa’d reported: "A funeral passed by the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and he stood up. It was said to him, 'It is a Jew.' The Prophet said, 'Was he not a soul?'" (Bukhari.)

    If Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) showed respect to a non-Muslim in a funeral bier upon his death, then is it not more the right of a sinful human being upon us to show respect for him/her when he/she is alive?

    Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) showed that respect to the non-Muslim in the funeral bier when he himself (peace and blessings be upon him) is sinless. Is it not more then our responsibility to show respect for a sinful human being when we are not sinless?

    AllahuAkbar (God is Great).

    If you say "yes", then there's no point in me discussing further. If you say "no", then why are you differentiating between these guys and homosexuals? What makes them unworthy of respect but the others worthy of respect? If you say "it's because they're harming other people while the homosexuals aren't harming anyone", then that isn't true. Homosexuality is Haraam; when they do it, they're opposing Allaah Ta`aalaa. The consequence of the sin of homosexuality is that the entire area is afflicted by `Adhaab (punishment) from Allaah Ta`aalaa (in many different forms). Allaah Ta`aalaa destroyed the entire towns of Sodom and Gomorrah because they were homosexuals. There is a narration which says that when Zinaa becomes rampant in a society, the rain is withheld. Zakaah, too; if people do not pay it, the rain is withheld. So sins can and do affect an entire community, not just the perpetrator.
    I would agree with you that illegal intercourse in either homosexuality or heterosexuality harms society. I also agree with you that as Muslims we do believe that individual sins spiritually, if enough people do so engage in sins, do collectively harm society; however, there is a proactive and constructive approach that needs to be taken to this issue. I have said this before on IB, and I'd say it again, that in our time not only non-Muslims need dawaa (invitation) but also Muslims.

    So, what we have to understand that the widespread illegal intercourse (whether in homosexuality or heterosexuality) in a society is a symptom of the problem, and the problem lays in the heart. Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "There is in the body a clump of flesh - if it becomes good, the whole body becomes good and if it becomes bad, the whole body becomes bad. And indeed it is the heart" (Bukhari). Where does Islam reside? In the heart. Where is iman (faith)? In the heart. Where is ihsan (excellence)? In the heart. When any of these things are missing in the heart, the heart needs to be awakened.

    The reason the heart needs to be awakened is because they have forgotten Allah and so Allah has made them to forget themselves (Quran 59:19), that is, have made the people forget their purpose in life.

    In this instance, as always, we should go back to the Quran for the solution. The Quran (29:45) says: “Recite what has been revealed to you of the Book, and perform the salah. Verily, the salah prevents from al-fahsha’ (immoral sins) and al-munkar (evil deeds) and the remembering (praising) of Allah is greater indeed. And Allah knows what you do.”

    The first solution comprises of reciting the Quran to people, Muslims and non-Muslims, and explaining to them the importance of living a righteous life under the shelter of Allah. That's what you have to do; you don't have to make value judgments about them. Let Allah's Revelation talk to them and their hearts. Let the conversation be between Allah and the sinful servant, and don't bring in yourself and your judgments because that is unnecessary and detracts from the conveyance of the Message. Please understand Islam is a breathing, living, miraculous, positive, transformation-inducing vehicle in a human being's life if channeled properly into the hearts of people. All you really have to do is be the means through which this vehicle is accepted to be lived as a way of life. You won't be able to do that if you make people to run away from you. And that's why Prophet said, “Treat people with ease and do not be hard on them; give them glad tidings and do not make them run away (from Islam).”

    The second solution as given by Allah is salah (prayer) for people, and so you have to urge the Muslims as a Islamic scholar to inculcate a prayerful life so that they can be prevented from committing illegal intercourse and other misdeeds. Again, remind people but in a way that is conducive to them taking your advice and implementing it in a practical way in their life.

    That said, every single person - `Aalim and non-`Aalim - commits sins. Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم clearly stated this in a Hadeeth. "All of the children of Adam are sinners, but the best of sinners are those who repent." Only Ambiyaa are sinless.

    So we are not saying the doors of repentance are closed; on the contrary, they're very wide open. For all of us.
    Alhamdhullilah (all praise, thanks, and credit is to Allah).

    The fact is this: the whole world today has become pro homosexuality and homosexuals. It has become a crime to say that homosexuality is Haraam. Very soon the West will expect `Ulamaa to speak pro homosexuality as well. To say that it is permissible. To conduct gay marriages in the Masaajid. When such a lax, lackadaisical attitude exists regarding a particular sin/abomination, it must be spoken against far more intensely than would otherwise be the case. You need to pull people out of this idea that homosexuality is "okay". It's not. Those who commit sodomy have been cursed in the Hadeeth.

    The `Ulamaa must speak out against it much more, and harshly.
    I do agree that illegal intercourse (whether in homosexuality or heterosexuality) is accepted and even becoming more acceptable. That said, I strongly believe that you as an Islamic scholar should convey that illegal intercourse is haram (forbidden) as a fact without making value judgments about the people committing these sins (and I've already given you the reason above).

    Also, what does the West have anything to do with anything? Do you recite the Quran and forget yourself what (8:30) Allah has said, "But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the Best of Planners."

    Recite the Revelation (Quran) and let Allah talk to the sinner himself/herself, because otherwise governments in the West or East will indeed say that you are spreading hatred and you will yourself be giving them ammunition to say so because you're interjecting yourself into this conversation with your value judgments instead of letting Allah's Revelation giving the talking-to to the sinful. Whether you are in the West or East, having the choice of moral conscience or religion is protected as an individual human right and as law, and it is this that that will protect you if Allah wills after you place your trust in Allah if you're truly able to withhold value judgments and instead speak within the boundaries of respect that should also be your default position as a human being for another human being no matter how sinful this person is because this person is Allah's creation.

    Neither should you nor I accept illegal intercourse ever as acceptable behavior, because that is the cause of moral and social corruption in the land; however, both you and I have to be able to come to terms with the fact that it is happening and deal with this happening in a constructive and proactive way.

    And also, again, you have to realize that illegal intercourse is a symptom of the problem and should not be confused with the problem itself. The problem is something else, and I'll tell you what the problem is: Illegal intercourse is becoming widespread because Islam has been failed to be established in the hearts of people, and therefore the outward manifestation of that lack of establishment of Islam in the heart is the limbs committing illegal intercourse. People are committing illegal intercourse because they are failing to find either compassion and practical solutions from the very 'Ulamaa (scholars) that are supposed to be relieving them of their distress and stresses in life, even though the hadith characterizes 'Ulamaa (scholars) as the "inheritors of the prophet." You're as an Islamic scholar supposed to inherit not only the knowledge of Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) but his attitude and mannerisms which made him to be so beloved to the people and enabled Islam to be established in the hearts of people (even in the hearts of people who hated Islam more than they hated anything). Instead, what we're finding here and elsewhere with the 'Ulamaa (scholars) is that there's a very real and and growing disconnect between the common persons and the 'Ulamaa (scholars). Why? Because the 'Ulamaa (scholars) are harsh in their language and uninterested in attempting to understand the struggles of the common laypersons. The 'Ulamaa (scholars) are chastising first and showing mercy second as an afterthought (if at all). The 'Ulamaa (scholars) are concerned now about growing Islamophobia in the West and the East but had not been concerned for years and years about giving their non-Muslim neighbors dawaa (invitation) with their actions or fulfilling the rights of their neighbors; in fact, the 'Ulamaa (scholars) would still rather speak about Islamophobia than address the disrespectful attitude they sometimes even know exists in many Muslims towards non-Muslims' honor, property, and life and is also practiced in many Muslim-majority countries. The 'Ulamaa (scholars) are more concerned about whether their knowledge and positions are being respected as "scholars" and not about whether they themselves are giving others respect as human beings. With such manifestation of poor akhlaaq (character and manners) and adab (etiquette) in our 'Ulamaa (scholars), how are the common people that are corrupted supposed to become free of their corruption? The 'Ulamaa (scholars) are only seeing a reflection of their own corrupt heart and attitudes in the people.

    With that, I also want to say that you as an Islamic scholar have struggled to attain the knowledge of Islam you have, and that is an impressive feat Masha-Allah (as Allah willed). I have nothing but best wishes and respect for you and wish you attain glorious heights as a humble and beautiful Islamic scholar and also a person Insha-Allah (God-willing). I hope you take what I've here on board in the best way because ultimately your success as an Islamic scholar and as a human being is also my success and our ummah's (nation's) success. And therefore, your individual adoption InshaAllah (God-willing) of a prophetic attitude is also one in the best interest of our ummah (nation). I have said this once on IB, but I'll say it here, that I believe we're currently in the time akin to the Meccan period of the Seerah (biography), and therefore our attitude to our weak brothers and sisters whether in humanity or faith should ideally be about meeting them in a corrupt world with knowledge, compassion, and support humbly in the face of their struggles. We must be firm and truthful always about what is halal (permissible) and haram (forbidden) but we must also be sympathetic and let them know of the Infinite Pleasure of Allah to be attained in their jihad (struggle) against their own selves and their desires. In today's corrupt world, everything is topsy-turvy and people have been socially conditioned from top-to-down about following their desires and therefore we have to talk to the people at their weak level (with feeble knowledge and discernment of truth and falsehood and indwelt little to no faith) because Prophet Muhammad said, "Speak to the people according to their level of knowledge, do you want Allah and His Messenger to be rejected?" (Bukhari)

    Barkallahu feek (may Allah bless you).

    (And peace be upon you)
    Last edited by Search; 08-25-2016 at 07:22 AM.
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  19. #15
    Serinity's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Mercy and Admonishment

    :Salams

    If we do not condemn and speak out, who will? If we do not explicitly say and act accordingly to shariah, who will? If we let people sin in public, let people who are disbelievers dress like prostitutes, under the disguise of "tolerance" that in fact is BAD tolerance, and infact it is tolerating evil.

    we should not tolerate or respect their sin.

    Truth may hurt, but if we do not state what Islam says, then we are doing an injustice.

    Public display of any shirk or homosexuality should never be allowed under shariah cuz it is indirect encouragment of sin. If we do not condemn and disassociate ourselves from the disbelievers, who will?

    we can not assimilate with the disbelievers, nor can we let their stuff rampant without clear explicit condemnation. Sodomy is a sin, therefore we condemn it. IF we tolerate that, I'd say we are NOT helping the sinners. If we do NOT make it clear for the sinners, what ISLAM says, we are NOT helping we are just encouraging the sin, and are being part of the problem.

    If we "respect" or "tolerate" sodomy, we are doing an injustice. we should clearly state we condemn it, we hate it, and dislike it. Sodomy is not like having sex with the opposite sex, it is worse.

    I ask this: if we let poison lose, tolerating it, not doing anything about it, it will eventually affect society as a whole. Islam came to rid evil and all disease.

    we should not respect or tolerate their anti Islamic actions. we will condemn it, and we will stand against it, and we wont tolerate it.
    Any scholar can correct me.

    Allahu alam.
    Last edited by Serinity; 08-25-2016 at 01:58 PM.
    Mercy and Admonishment

    Meaning of Shirk according to The Qur'an
    " Worshipping anyone or anything besides Allah " or " distributing anything exclusive to Allah, to anyone or anything else "

    Meaning of Tawheed according to The Qur'an
    Worshipping none but Allah. Affirming whatever is exclusive to Him, Him alone.
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    naveedsubhani's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Mercy and Admonishment

    Must try to spread true things to people
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    Re: Mercy and Admonishment

    Greetings and peace be with you Serinity;

    If we do not condemn and speak out, who will?
    You ask, 'who will' and the most important answer is, who will take any notice. Most of us on this forum like giving advice, but I sense very few of us take any advice, sadly this makes us hypocrites. If I thought for one moment that speaking out would make a difference, then yes, speak out.

    I always sense the greater challenge is to try and change ourselves, and not try and change other people.

    In the spirit of praying for the wisdom and strength to do God's will.

    Eric
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy

    format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam View Post
    If we speak out against Shirk saying there is no place for Shirk in Islam, and that Allah will punish mushrikeen in the Hereafter, would you consider it Shirko-phobic?

    If we speak out against zina calling it a major sin in Islam, would you consider it as heterophobic?

    If we speak out against interest and say it is an invitation of war against Allah and His Messenger, would you call it as hate against bankers?
    I don't see that Sister Search ever said anything like that.

    Speaking out against such acts is mandatory. Spreading hatred against people; not so good. As Essa said concerning the woman caught in adultery (who had to have been set up), "let those of you without sin through the first stone (at her)."

    Some sins have more obvious consequences in the dunya. Some feel more repugnant to us. But even the tiniest sin is marring God's creating.

    I made a decision recently, that every time I feel like complaining about someone (for their sins that affect or bother me), I will make dua for them instead. Better for all parties involved.
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    Re: Bible verses about sodomy



    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    I haven't used the term homophobia; however, it is interesting to me that you're implying that term in the context of this conversation. That said, yes, our IB brother Huzaifah ibn Adam did display unwarranted prejudice towards homosexuals/lesbians, and I do not believe that prejudice is either conducive or helpful or even desirable to helping our brothers and sisters in either humanity or in our own faith to be turning away from sexual behaviors specific to homosexuality/lesbianism.
    I think the point is more clear now. You acknowledge that his posts cannot be classified as 'homophobia', it is just 'unwarranted prejudice' against them. In this case, I can agree with you but I believe in the current times, when the whole western world is standing up in support of lgbt behaviour, it is our duty as Muslims to denounce it to the extent of our capacity.

    What is an "active homosexual"? Does anyone of you even know here? One of the most common acts in homosexuality is mutual masturbation and not necessarily or even sodomy as most of you here erroneously seem to believe. How can a person act and behave like an "active homosexual" in such a way that the public understands him to be an "active homosexual"? In shariah (Islamic law), there is no such thing, I repeat, because 4 witnesses have to see anal penetration or there has to be an oral confession given to a judge. And even in the case of oral confession, that person is questioned to ensure that it is a voluntary confession, the person confessing is of sane mind, the person is physically mature, that the person understands what the punishment of such a confession is, and also, the confession has to be repeated a certain number of times to ensure again that the person's confession is entirely voluntary. Let me repeat that no one can know what sexual behaviors anyone practices within the privacy of his/her home, and as Muslims, we do not speculate as all such speculation is an evil.
    I used the term "active" to differentiate between those who simply feel attracted towards the same gender (and they do not act on it), and those who actively fulfill their such desires, be it in any form. We do not have to know what they do in their privacy, if they openly identify themselves as active homosexual, that is sufficient for their sin. Do you think anything other penetration is not considered as a sin? We don't have to speculate when they themselves openly proclaim their sexuality.

    Moreover, we would need to define what "feminine" men are and what "masculine" women are: For example, we know that Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) would be awash with tears at the memory of him having buried his infant girl during jahilliyah (ignorance, when he had not converted to Islam). Moreover, we know from Seerah (biography), Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) were one day crying under the shade of a tree because they were fearful of Allah's punishment. So, being "emotional" as a man is not considered in Islam "feminine" behavior because as Muslims we're supposed to have our hearts moved when we think of Allah in any context.

    Secondly, Nusaybah bint Ka'ab shielded Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) fought with the sword enemies of Islam to protect him and was wounded in the Battle of Uhud. Also, al-Shafa' was appointed an inspector in Medina during the Caliphate of Umar (may Allah be pleased with him). So, participating in battles or working are also not "masculine" behaviors. Also, in Sahih Muslim, it is reported from Abu Salama Bin Abdur Rahman Bin Awf that they used to do cut their hair so to reduce the burden that is caused by hair. So, women cutting their hair short also is not definable as "masculine" in regards to this hadith (prophetic tradition) unless the intention is to specifically imitate men. And none can read intentions in the breasts of either man or woman but Allah.
    I think you are missing the point. The Hadith I quoted is clear and you are trying to find leeways for it.

    By masculine behaviour, it means those women who take on the appearance of men and similarly, feminine men means those men who act like women to attract other men towards them. It has no relation to being emotional or being brave, because any human being can be emotional and can be brave.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    That is your right and your choice; however, you must remember the hadith (prophetic tradition) "Such a time will come that scholars will be an element of mischief" (Abu Nuaim).
    This is the umpteenth time you have hurled insults in this thread on our scholars by implying that they are "sinful", "their recitation of Quran does not go beyond their throat", "insincere and will be judged after martyrs", "egoistic", "causing people to stay away from Islam", "having poor akhlaq and adab" etc. You seem to be the most knowledgeable, pious, sincere and concerned member here. I hope nobody misunderstands you.

    Again, I hope you see the irony of using the Old Testament to bolster your position because Jeremiah 8:8 says, "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

    And the Quran says the following:

    "Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this)." (Quran 2:75)

    "So woe to those who write the 'scripture' with their own hands, then say, 'This is from Allah,' in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." (Quran 2:79)

    "There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, 'That is from Allah,' but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!" (Quran 3:78)

    Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us."
    I think you are forgetting that Torah and Injil were revealed by Allah, and whatever we find in them that corresponds to Islamic teachings, we can assume that that part is still a preserved part of the revelation.

    The Bible quotes mentioned by brother Huzaifah reinforce our point that all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah, عليهم السلام, taught the same message and they all severely warned their people of the consequences of sins.


    In today's times, people are running away from religion, and they are running away from religion, because as you once said yourself, this time has come to pass as said in a hadith (prophetic tradition): "Such a time will come to people that only the name of Islam and the image of the Quran will remain. Mosques will be prosperous on the outside, but will have no salvation in them. Their scholars will be the most evil under the sky. Corruption emerged from them and will return to them." (al-Bayhaqi)
    Once again. Thank you for being the good one here.


    Let's go back to the Seerah (biography) and see what the prophetic attitude is even in the face of manifest evil like you've described.

    Hind bint `Utbah went out with the army of Quraish in Uhud prompting them to her utmost to eradicate Muslims. When the pagan army fled away from Muslims at the beginning of the battle, she was very angry. On that day, she did not flee like the men had. On the other hand, she committed a very evil and repugnant act. In addition to mutilating the Muslim corpses, she approached Hamzah ibn `Andil-Muttalib and split open his belly and out of rancor and enmity to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), she pulled out his liver and chewed on it.

    At the end of the battle when the disbelievers won Muslims, Hind committed a very repugnant act. She began maiming the corpses of Muslims one by one. She was cutting ears and noses. She approached Hamzah ibn `Andil-Muttalib and split open his interior, she pulled out his liver and, out of rancor, she masticated it, but she spit it out as it tasted unpleasant to her.

    Can you imagine the distress of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him)? And yes, indeed, he (peace and blessings be upon him) was very distressed.

    Moreover, Hind went out with the disbelievers in Al-Ahzab battle and continued confronting Islam shortly before the opening of Mecca, even she refuse her husband attitude when he asked the people of Mecca to enter their homes seeking the protection of the prophet. Besides, she prompted people of Mecca to kill her husband as he acted submissively to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

    However, when she came to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to accept Islam, he (peace and blessings be upon him) accepted her Islam. If Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had stopped respecting her as a human being, she would never have been able to bring Islam.

    Forgiving a person who has wronged you or a wrongdoer who has harmed your family member is very, very, very hard. If I pretended to be a saint here to you or anyone, I'd surely be a liar. For sure, I would be shaken, and like any human being, I would probably want revenge and would be emotionally and mentally disturbed due to what's happened. I'd want the perpetrator punished. However, at the same time, I'd also know that my feelings do not determine Islam, but Islam should determine my feelings. Therefore, I'd still have to know that respecting human being is the default position in itself and the evidence for this is as follows:

    Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "All creatures are like Allah's family. The best one in the sight of Allah is he who treats his family well." (Bayhaqi).

    Inscribed on the sword of Prophet Muhammad were the words: "Forgive him who wrongs you; join him who cuts you off; do good to him who does evil to you, and speak the truth although it be against yourself."

    Also, is shirk (idolatry) not more heinous than any other sin a person commits in the world? Yet Qais ibn Sa’d reported: "A funeral passed by the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and he stood up. It was said to him, 'It is a Jew.' The Prophet said, 'Was he not a soul?'" (Bukhari.)

    If Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) showed respect to a non-Muslim in a funeral bier upon his death, then is it not more the right of a sinful human being upon us to show respect for him/her when he/she is alive?

    Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) showed that respect to the non-Muslim in the funeral bier when he himself (peace and blessings be upon him) is sinless. Is it not more then our responsibility to show respect for a sinful human being when we are not sinless?

    AllahuAkbar (God is Great).
    We are not discussing about treatment of those repent. We are discussing about public denouncing of sins and those who sin.

    Narrated Jubair bin Mut`im:

    That he heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "The person who severs the bond of kinship will not enter Paradise." [Bukhari]


    Abu Bakr As-Siddiq narrated that the Messenger of Allah said :
    "The one who treats his slaves badly will not enter paradise." [Tirmidhi]

    It was narrated from Abu Darda’ that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:
    “No one who is addicted to wine will enter Paradise.” [Ibn Majah]



    There are many such Ahadith that publicly denounce sins and sinners. Does this mean they are all hated by the Messenger of Allah ? Not at all. He is simply saying that such actions are so severe that they can prevent a person from entering Paradise. Obviously, those who repent sincerely, the doors of forgiveness are wide open for them.

    That said, I strongly believe that you as an Islamic scholar should convey that illegal intercourse is haram (forbidden) as a fact without making value judgments about the people committing these sins (and I've already given you the reason above).
    I hope you do not imply that the Messenger of Allah was also judging people who committed those sins mentioned above by saying that they will not enter paradise.

    It seems like you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Our members are not judging them when they speak against them. They are simply saying whatever they are saying in general terms.


    format_quote Originally Posted by LaSorcia View Post
    I don't see that Sister Search ever said anything like that.

    Speaking out against such acts is mandatory. Spreading hatred against people; not so good. As Essa said concerning the woman caught in adultery (who had to have been set up), "let those of you without sin through the first stone (at her)."

    Some sins have more obvious consequences in the dunya. Some feel more repugnant to us. But even the tiniest sin is marring God's creating.

    I made a decision recently, that every time I feel like complaining about someone (for their sins that affect or bother me), I will make dua for them instead. Better for all parties involved.
    Yes, we agree with you. The point we are trying to make is that such public denouncement is not supposed to be taken as spreading hatred.
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    Re: Mercy and Admonishment

    Greetings and peace be with you Serinity;

    If we "respect" or "tolerate" sodomy, we are doing an injustice.
    I agree with you, but truthfully, how will this intolerance influence change?

    we should clearly state we condemn it, we hate it, and dislike it.
    It seems that religious people are being branded as hateful and intolerant people, sadly we seem to be loosing the moral high ground.

    I ask this: if we let poison lose, tolerating it, not doing anything about it, it will eventually affect society as a whole. Islam came to rid evil and all disease.
    Religion seems to be loosing the war against sexual freedom, we live in times when advertising says we are worth it, and we should have what we want. Marriage for life has little meaning in the UK, by the time a child reaches fifteen, about half of them are not living with both their biological parents.

    I believe if religion is to start clawing back the moral high ground, we should be promoting what we stand for, more than what we are against. In other words, the loving relationship in marriage between one man and one woman for life, and before God. We should be promoting the advantages for the husband and wife, and particularly the advantages for children.

    It is even in the interest of the government and society to promote marriage for life, the country would save paying out billions of pounds in benefits. I believe that children will also grow up with fewer problems too.

    In the spirit of praying for the sanctity of marriage.

    Eric
    Last edited by Eric H; 08-26-2016 at 04:44 AM.
    Mercy and Admonishment

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
    chat Quote


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