Deoband and Tablighi Jamat

format_quote Originally Posted by Zzz_

Deobandi are not the saviors of the ummah, nor everything they do is according to the Quran and Sunnah. And you tabligi jamat worships and teaches from their shirk based Fazale Amal book more than the Quran and Sunnah.

keep on hating them, it doesn't affect them, my friend.

format_quote Originally Posted by azc

keep on hating them, it doesn't affect them, my friend.

Is that what you say to all those who point out the deviance of others? Have you even read their Fazale Amal?

format_quote Originally Posted by azc

I'm not interested at all to see who calls whom as deviant. I've fazaile amal and have read it. Did you..?

I have no interest reading shirk, lies and fabricated books. If you read it and still ok with it then you need to either check your aqeedah or your level of knowledge. The attached pdf in my previous post clearly outlines the lies and shirk committed in fazale amal but you are just going to play blind eye to that huh?

I've taken important highlights from the pdf and posted them here for the readers: https://imgur.com/a/oEameQx

format_quote Originally Posted by azc

You need to grow up now, brother.

wow. that's your response to someone who highlights a book that preaches shirk?

smh...

@Zzz_ :

''incident from Fadhaail-e-Aamaal in which ibn Jalaa relates that he saw in a vision Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) giving him a piece of bread. He ate half of it and after he woke up, the other half was in his hand.''

It is taken from following books, mentioned therein:

Dalaail-un-nubuwwah of Imaam Bayhaqi rh, vol.7 pg.47

Musnadul Faarooq by ibn Katheer rh, vol.1 pg.223

Hafiz ibn Hajar RA in his al-Isaabah vol.6 pg.216
and
Fath al-Baari vol.2 pg.629; Qadeemi

Imaam Bukhari RA himself has made indication towards this incident in his Taareekh al-Kabeer vol.7 pg.304

ibn Katheer RA and ibn Hajar RA have classified this incident as authentic.

Musnadul Faarooq vol.1 pg.23; Fath al-Baari Qadeemi vol.2 pg.629

Note: I advise you to read Kitab Al Rooh of sh Ibn Qayyim rh, I'd like to see whether or not you issue the same fatwa of shirk against him.

I'm not interested at all in making allegations against imams or scholars and discussing their books. It doesn't benefit us, rather, create rift and hatred.

Shytan wants to spread hatred and unfortunately, we follow the foot steps of shytan.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zzz_

No, you seriously need to grow up. You are blind following your sufi and shirk based resources. Calling the sunni scholars fitna mongering for bringing to out attention the deviance of others only reflects on you and your mentality. I guess we're done here, to you be your shirk amali deen to us ours.

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we are descended of Adam (a.s.) not African and arabs and jews. That is what they want you to believe so you would worship them. Judge each people based on their merit and the jews and arabs don't deserve any praise or admiration given their track records. Some arabs quote fabricated and weak hadith about the prophet (S) saying to 'love the arabs for i'm an arab'. Prophet (S) only praised 2 regions, as-sham and yemen and no other arab land. And these regions are the ones being massacred and starved to death by the gulf arabs and their zionist auliyah.

''incident from Fadhaail-e-Aamaal in which ibn Jalaa relates that he saw in a vision Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) giving him a piece of bread. He ate half of it and after he woke up, the other half was in his hand.''

It is taken from following books, mentioned therein:

Dalaail-un-nubuwwah of Imaam Bayhaqi rh, vol.7 pg.47

Musnadul Faarooq by ibn Katheer rh, vol.1 pg.223

Hafiz ibn Hajar RA in his al-Isaabah vol.6 pg.216
and
Fath al-Baari vol.2 pg.629; Qadeemi

Imaam Bukhari RA himself has made indication towards this incident in his Taareekh al-Kabeer vol.7 pg.304

ibn Katheer RA and ibn Hajar RA have classified this incident as authentic
.
Musnadul Faarooq vol.1 pg.23; Fath al-Baari Qadeemi vol.2 pg.629

So you think imam Ibn kathir rh, imam bayhaqî rh, hafiz hajar rh, imam Bukhari rh etc were involved in shirk because author of fazaile amal got this incident from their books...

format_quote Originally Posted by Zzz_

Deobandi are not the saviors of the ummah, nor everything they do is according to the Quran and Sunnah. And your tabligi jamat teaches from their shirk based Fazale Amal book more than the Quran and Sunnah.

Asalamu Alaikum

Most Deobandis are pretty okay in terms of aqeedah, even if some of their famous figures may have had some questionable views (I've honestly seen Deobandis quote Ibn Taymiyyah more than Ashraf Ali Thanvi).

As for Tablighi Jamaat, they're just a dawah group. The members can vary from one another greatly in terms of aqeedah.

format_quote Originally Posted by JustTime

Akhi, it is best not to delve into such things they are Muslims and have brought many to Islam and we should leave it at that Insha'Allah

I'm just annoyed by stubborn hard headed muslims who are so arrogant in defending shirk that they would attack others, including scholars, for speaking out against such things and be so blind in what they believe. These are the people who want to hold hands with all sects and sing kumbayah when the caliphs went war against such innovators.

And i don't deny the good that jamat does but they are like khamr, there is some good in them but the bad outweighs the good.

Jamaa’at al-Tableegh – pros and cons

“Jamaa’at al-Tableegh” is one of the groups that are working for Islam. Their efforts in calling people to Allaah (da’wah) cannot be denied. But like many other groups they make some mistakes, and some points should be noted concerning them. These points may be summed up as follows, noting that these mistakes may vary within this group, depending on the environment and society in which they find themselves. In societies in which knowledge and scholars are prevalent and the madhhab of Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah is widespread, the mistakes are much less; in other societies these mistakes may be greater. Some of their mistakes are:

1 – Not adopting the ‘aqeedah of Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaa'ah. This is clearly seen from the variations in the ‘aqeedah of some of their members and even of some of their leaders.

2 – Their not paying attention to shar’i knowledge.

3 – Their misinterpretation of some Qur’aanic verses in a manner that was not intended by Allaah. For example they interpret the verses on jihad as referring to “going out for da’wah”. The verses which mentioned the word khurooj (going out) etc. are interpreted by them as meaning going out for da’wah.

4 – They make their system of going out for da’wah an act of worship. So they started to misquote the Qur’aan to support their system which specifies certain numbers of days and months. This system, which they think is based on evidence from Qur’aan, is widespread among them in all countries and environments.

5 – They do some things that go against sharee’ah, such as appointing one of them to make du’aa’ for them whilst the group goes out for da’wah, and they think that their success or failure depends on whether or not this man was sincere and his du’aa’ accepted.

6 – Da’eef (weak) and mawdoo’ (fabricated) ahaadeeth are widespread among them, and this is not befitting for those who aim to call people to Allaah.

7 – They do not speak of munkaraat (evil things), thinking that enjoining what is good is sufficient. Hence we find that they do not speak about evils that are widespread among the people, even though the slogan of this ummah – which they continually repeat – is:

“Let there arise out of you a group of people inviting to all that is good (Islam), enjoining Al-Ma‘roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do) and forbidding Al-Munkar (polytheism and disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden). And it is they who are the successful”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:104 – interpretation of the meaning]
The successful are those who enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil, not just those who do only one of the two.

8 – Some of them fall into self-admiration and arrogance, which leads them to look down on others, and even to look down on the scholars and describe them as inactive and sleeping, or to show off. So you find them talking about how they went out and travelled, and they saw such and such, which leads to unfavourable results, as we have mentioned.

9 – They regard going out for da’wah as better than many acts of worship such as jihad and seeking knowledge, even though those things are obligatory duties, or may be obligatory for some people but not others.

10 – Some of them audaciously issue fatwas, and discuss tafseer and hadeeth. That is because they allow each one of them to address the people and explain to them. This leads to them speak audaciously on matters of sharee’ah. So the inevitably speak of the meaning of a ruling, hadeeth or verse when they have not read anything about it, or listened to any of the scholars. And some of them are new Muslims or have only recently come back to Islam.
11- Some of them are negligent with regard to the rights of their children and wives. We have discussed the seriousness of this matter in the answer to question no. 3043.

Hence the scholars do not allow people to go out with them, except for those who want to help them and correct the mistakes that they have fallen into.
We should not keep the people away from them altogether, rather we must try to correct their mistakes and advise them so that their efforts will continue and they will be correct according to the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

There follow the fatwas of some of the scholars concerning Jamaa’at al-Tableegh:

1 – Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz said:

Jamaa’at al-Tableegh do not have proper understanding of the issues of ‘aqeedah, so it is not permissible to go out with them, except for one who has knowledge and understanding of the correct ‘aqeedah of Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaa'ah, so that he can guide them and advise them, and cooperate with them in doing good, because they are very active, but they need more knowledge and someone who can guide them of those who have knowledge of Tawheed and the Sunnah. May Allaah bless us all with proper understanding of Islam and make us steadfast in adhering to it.
Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 8/331

2 – Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan said:

Going out for the sake of Allaah does not refer to the kind of going out that they mean nowadays. Going out for the sake of Allaah means going out to fight. What they call going out nowadays is a bid’ah (innovation) that was not narrated from the salaf.

Going out to call people to Allaah cannot be limited to a certain number of days, rather one should call people to Allaah according to one's abilities, without limiting that to a group or to forty days or more or less than that.

Similarly the daa’iyah must have knowledge. It is not permissible for a person to call people to Allaah when he is ignorant. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say (O Muhammad): This is my way; I invite unto Allaah (i.e. to the Oneness of Allaah — Islamic Monotheism) with sure knowledge” [Yoosuf 12:108]

i.e., with knowledge, because the caller must know that to which he calls people, what is obligatory, mustahabb, haraam and makrooh. He has to know what shirk, sin, kufr, immorality and disobedience are; he has to know the degrees of denouncing evil and how to do it.

The kind of going out that distracts people from seeking knowledge is wrong, because seeking knowledge is an obligation, and it can only be achieved by learning, not by inspiration. This is one of the misguided Sufi myths, because action without knowledge is misguidance, and hoping to acquire knowledge without learning is an illusion.

From Thalaath Mihaadaraat fi’l-‘Ilm wa’l-Da’wah.

No group in ummah including Tj is perfect.

Neither I'm salafi nor a tj follower find this fact that Tj is spreading awareness of deen, brotherhood, harmony in ummah globally is a miracle in itself.

Generally, Fatwas of scholars about other groups of ummah are personal opinion.

format_quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez

How is spreading awareness of Diin a miracle?

Second, you do realize that the term mujizaat is reserved for the Prophets (peace be upon them all)
The term karamaat is for the friends of Allaah
And the term Istidraaj is for the unexplained, supernatural actions carried out by the evil ones.



Are you accusing scholars of using personal bias to issue Fataawaa against others????

Here you are saying on another thread how al-Bukhaari narrated from Shia and here you say this?

The fact that al-Bukhaari narrated from Shia (the Shia then were different from those the term is used for today) shows he took the truth from wherever it came and did not let personal bias intervene.

While some may, how can you paint all scholars with the same brush? Deobandis have rightly given Fatwaa against the TJ for their use of mind boggling weak and at times untraceable narrations.

One thing often surprises me that how tj has spread in every corner of the world without any kind of help from any government or organization.

I've seen their ijtimah which sometimes goes around 5 million people e.g. Bijnor ijtima and how beautifully they managed without any support of local administration is just amazing.

In hadith we read sahaba ikram ra loved each other, a glimpse of this love can be seen in tj workers. About 11 years ago I happened to stay in markaz nizamuddin for 2 nights I observed several qualities of sahaba ra in them.

I know darul uloom and mazahirul uloom have given the fatwa against women's jamat as well.

nevertheless, I appreciate their efforts for deen.

format_quote Originally Posted by azc

Tj is spreading awareness of deen, brotherhood, harmony in ummah globally is a miracle in itself.

yes, they are as much a miracle as the christians spreading christianity or the ahamdiyyahs spreading their deen. A Muslim sitting home, not talking to anyone is doing more for the deen then tj, at the very least he is not out there speading falsehood about the deen.

Fatwas of scholars about other groups of ummah are personal opinion.

Fatwa by definition is an islamic ruling. To accuse the scholars of passing personal opinions as fatwas is very telling of you. Next you'll be saying the prophet(S) was also passing his personal opinion when he said there will be 73 sects in Islam and only one will be victorious, and that other groups are our brothers and we should unite as one ummah. You got that shirky tariq jameel written all over you.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zzz_

yes, they are as much a miracle as the christians spreading christianity or the ahamdiyyahs spreading their deen. A Muslim sitting home, not talking to anyone is doing more for the deen then tj, at the very least he is not out there speading falsehood about the deen.

Fatwa by definition is an islamic ruling. To accuse the scholars of passing personal opinions as fatwas is very telling of you. Next you'll be saying the prophet(S) was also passing his personal opinion when he said there will be 73 sects in Islam and only one will be victorious, and that other groups are our brothers and we should unite as one ummah. You got that shirky tariq jameel written all over you.

your fatwa is still awaited about classical scholars. Have you forgotten..?
Or should I remind you that author of fazaile amal took so called ''shirk stories'' from their books...?

format_quote Originally Posted by azc

your fatwa is still awaited about classical scholars. Have you forgotten..?
Or should I remind you that author of fazaile amal took so called ''shirk stories'' from their books...?

problem with subcontinent people is that like the chritians they go to extreme in their religion. They may have taken stories from the classical scholars, but those stories have been added to by those authors. and your sufi scholars and their grave worship and other bidah doesn't count. keep defending falsehood and shirk, it will only come to stand against you on J-day.