format_quote Originally Posted by FollowerOfChrist
But if ya'll believe the Gospel has been changed, then why do ya'll use the NT to try to prove Jesus never clamed to be God. Kinda like ya'll was doing in the "Why do you bash Christians for eating unclean foods" thread.
For the simple reason is because you believe the NT to be true and unchanged. You would not accept the Qur'an as a reference source, however, you may see that even the reference source you accept, does not support what you profess to believe.
format_quote Originally Posted by FollowerOfChrist
Anyways, this is why I can't be apart of Islam. There no way God can hate someone.
As you read through old threads in this forum you will discover a few things you may not have anticipated to find. Many of us here (Myself included) said essentially the same words you are now saying, during our years following Paulism in the belief we were Christians. During our Christian years we loved and worshiped an idealistic man-made concept. after we came to Islam we learned to truly love Jesus(as) and not what we were told was Jesus(as).
When I was Christian I thought I loved Jesus(as) after coming to Islam I came to truly Love Jesus(as).
Now to get back to your quote. love and hate are human emotions, Allaah(swt) is beyond the need of emotions. We can not even contemplate the concepts of love and hate as they relate to him. But we do know that all who reject and transgress against him and die without repenting will face eternal punishment. If you believe Allaah(swt) prepared Hell for the transgressors because he loves them, why should I object. You are free to state your opinions and views.
This is my second post on this forum and thought it would be appropriate because I came here to learn how Muslims view God.
As said before, Christians are told to love everyone, to pray for those who persecute us and to overcome good with evil. We believe that God is the Merciful Saviour and Just Judge for everyone. Everything about God is unmeasurable, which is why we will never realise how much He loves us until we meet Him. We are told that "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."- John 4
Here is a quote from the book of Mathew:
"... But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven... For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.
This means that a perfect person does not only do things when he will get something in return. God does not do this either. A perfect person does not only love those who love him. God, who is infinitely perfect does not only love those who love Him.
This is how Christians know God, so find it difficult to imagine Him only loving those who love Him back.
This is my second post on this forum and thought it would be appropriate because I came here to learn how Muslims view God.
As said before, Christians are told to love everyone, to pray for those who persecute us and to overcome good with evil. We believe that God is the Merciful Saviour and Just Judge for everyone. Everything about God is unmeasurable, which is why we will never realise how much He loves us until we meet Him. We are told that "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."- John 4
Here is a quote from the book of Mathew:
"... But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven... For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.
This means that a perfect person does not only do things when he will get something in return. God does not do this either. A perfect person does not only love those who love him. God, who is infinitely perfect does not only love those who love Him.
This is how Christians know God, so find it difficult to imagine Him only loving those who love Him back.
In my nearly half a century as a Christian, I can understand that. But I found that the attempts to give Human attributes to Allaah(swt) gave my former Christian view a very restricted view of the infinite love and mercy of Allaah(swt)
God(swt) has no need of us, we can not harm nor affect him. It is our own choice that will bring us Allaah(swt)'s rewards or punishments. Allaah(swt) does love all of us, but we have to accept his love and repent of our sins. It is our choice if we gather the love or hate of Allaah(swt) We ourselves choose if we want his infinite love or his infinite hate.
Malachi 1:2-3 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Romans 9:13-15 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
It seems to me that you are misunderstanding and misinterpreting "hate" and also "love." It also seems to me that you are closing your ears and eyes in order to selectively see and hear what you want to assume to be correct rather than what is.
format_quote Originally Posted by MEG
Hello!
This is my second post on this forum and thought it would be appropriate because I came here to learn how Muslims view God.
As said before, Christians are told to love everyone, to pray for those who persecute us and to overcome good with evil. We believe that God is the Merciful Saviour and Just Judge for everyone. Everything about God is unmeasurable, which is why we will never realise how much He loves us until we meet Him. We are told that "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."- John 4
Here is a quote from the book of Mathew:
"... But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven... For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.
This means that a perfect person does not only do things when he will get something in return. God does not do this either. A perfect person does not only love those who love him. God, who is infinitely perfect does not only love those who love Him.
This is how Christians know God, so find it difficult to imagine Him only loving those who love Him back.
Does your god love non-Christians?
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
In my nearly half a century as a Christian, I can understand that. But I found that the attempts to give Human attributes to Allaah(swt) gave my former Christian view a very restricted view of the infinite love and mercy of Allaah(swt)
God(swt) has no need of us, we can not harm nor affect him. It is our own choice that will bring us Allaah(swt)'s rewards or punishments. Allaah(swt) does love all of us, but we have to accept his love and repent of our sins. It is our choice if we gather the love or hate of Allaah(swt) We ourselves choose if we want his infinite love or his infinite hate
I agree. We can't give human attributes to God, which is why it's so difficult to be perfect for Him. God does have no need for us, but wants to share His eternal love with us. Because God is loving, He has given us free will, even though it means we may choose satan.
Does your god love non-Christians?
Yes.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female..."
"And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold..."
"And if he shall lose one of them, doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the desert, and go after that which was lost, until he find it?"
In the bible its clear God loves the ones that follow and obey God and love God with all there heart - How can christians claim God loves all when they believe that non christians are going to hell?
peace
Last edited by Zafran; 09-12-2010 at 07:05 PM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
the way i look at it, is if you haven't fulfill reasons for that particular person/thing to love you, then how can you expect them to love you.
for example, you may have a particular preferences about a life partner in the way they look like, or perhaps even their manners, job, wealth, etc. thus, if you had met someone that didn't look how you wanted them/didn't meet your expectations, are you going to like/love them? no.
does that mean you are unfair or that you are unjustice to them? no.
is there any blame on you for rejecting that person after you have made clear what your prefer in a life partner? no.
is there a blame on that person to keep expecting your love, despite the fact that they have done nothing to earn it? yes.
So what about in relation to God. if we have done nothing but disobey him, why should we expect His love. we must fulfill our end of the bargain as well....its only fair.
its our own fault if we reject His message after its been made clear (which it has been). You cant go around playing victim when you haven't bothered fulfilling the requirements to attain His love. does that make sense to you?
give me a good reason why you should consider them a life partner if they have not fulfilled the expectations. we don't live in a Hollywood movie, we live in reality so its best we get real.
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
C'mon, sister!!!! What do you mean "Does your God?" Christians and Muslims both supposedly believe in the God of Abraham. And now you're trying to make it sound as if we have different God[s]. God is God. Anyway, yes, in Christian theology God loves everybody. That includes sinners, rapists, killers, kidnappers, robbers, adulteress, atheists, or whatever.
format_quote Originally Posted by FollowerOfChrist
C'mon, sister!!!! What do you mean "Does your God?" Christians and Muslims both supposedly believe in the God of Abraham. And now you're trying to make it sound as if we have different God[s]. God is God. Anyway, yes, in Christian theology God loves everybody. That includes sinners, rapists, killers, kidnappers, robbers, adulteress, atheists, or whatever.
you worship a middle eastern man named Jesus.. and we worship the one who has created him, so how can we believe in the same god?
if your god loves everyone then why the need for many of you to go out 'preaching the good word' by force as well subjugate others in the process while stealing their wealth for millenniums worth of every imaginable warfare? if your god loves everyone then it wouldn't matter who is a jew or a hindu, or a Zoroastrian for that matter .. did you even bother read what your fellow christian quoted directly from your book? why all the contradictions and hypocrisy?
you should start by addressing those angry Jesusans by wtc. it seems your govt has committed a crime, pinned it on others, and finds so much value in rehashing it to foster all that Jesus love on daily basis by spreading hatred and instigating wars all over the middle east...
hypocrites in every way imaginable!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
you worship a middle eastern man named Jesus.. and we worship the one who has created him, so how can we believe in the same god? if your god loves everyone then why the need for many of you to go out 'preaching the good word' by force as well subjugate others in the process while stealing their wealth for millenniums worth of every imaginable warfare? if your god loves everyone then it wouldn't matter who is a jew or a hindu, or a Zoroastrian for that matter .. did you even bother read what your fellow christian quoted directly from your book? why all the contradictions and hypocrisy?
you should start by addressing those angry Jesusans by wtc. it seems your govt has committed a crime, pinned it on others, and finds so much value in rehashing it to foster all that Jesus love on daily basis by spreading hatred and instigating wars all over the middle east...
hypocrites in every way imaginable!
Listen , I was just simply answering you question. Now you wanna turn this into a debate. God is not like humans. He is not capable of hating anyone. That's what makes him better than all of us. We believe in the God of Abraham right? Longer than Muslims. We believe Jesus IS that God in the flesh. It's the Muslims understanding of who God is that is different. And WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??!?! You can't make generalizations like that about Christians. A lot of people who represent Islam make the religion look bad. For example, I got muslim friends (mostly females) and most of them have abusive parents. I believe there's islamic folks that don't have crazy, psychotic, politcal beliefs like you do. I've never met one. And even though I never that doesn't a muslim that doesn't have nutty politcal beliefs, I'm not gonna make generalizations like you. What government talking about? Don't you know Muslims countries have some of the WORST government systems in the world. As a matter of fact, look at muslims countries compared Christian countries. There's been cases where rape victims have been stoned to death. And who stones people to death? Even the JEWS stopped doing that a minute ago. Why are y'all still doing it? The BIRTHPLACE of Islam is still doing it. I was just answersing your question. I really don't wanna argue with you, sweetie. You have HAVE this arguement.
Last edited by Woodrow; 09-12-2010 at 12:49 PM.
Reason: Rmoved inappropriate term. we discourage interpersonal comments between genders.
In the bibkle its clear God loves the ones that follow and obey God and love God with all there heart - How can christians claim God loves all when they believe that non christians are going to hell?
peace
First of all, start paying attention to the posts. What does "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" mean? What does that mean? Just because G-d punishes you doesn't mean he doesn't love you. My parents punished me for all the bad I did. I almost NEVER obeyed their rules. They STILL love me even though I didn't obey them. And that's the same thing with G-d. Do you get it yet?
This is my first post in this forum.
What had me interested in this thread was its title “In Islam, does God love everybody?” Yet, going through the messages I noticed that the discussion has shifted to whether God loves everyone according to the Christian doctrine. Allow me to stick with the initial subject.
From the second surah already humanity is categorized in three groups: the believers, the disbelievers and the hypocrites.
So, let us see how Allah feels about the disbelievers:
S2:06: As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
S2:07: Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
S2:19: Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder and the flash of lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears by reason of the thunder-claps, for fear of death, Allah encompasseth the disbelievers (in His guidance, His omniscience and His omnipotence).
S2:39: But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.
S2:98: Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael! Then, lo! Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers.
S2:104: O ye who believe, say not (unto the Prophet): "Listen to us" but say "Look upon us," and be ye listeners. For disbelievers is a painful doom.
The examples can be numerous but I suppose the above are enough to support my point of view. I wonder though how it is that for Muslims the above are statements proving Allah is an all-loving God.
And by the way, what is the point of free will when the consequences don't offer any alternative other than paradise or eternal fire?
you worship a middle eastern man named Jesus.. and we worship the one who has created him, so how can we believe in the same god?
if your god loves everyone then why the need for many of you to go out 'preaching the good word' by force as well subjugate others in the process while stealing their wealth for millenniums worth of every imaginable warfare? if your god loves everyone then it wouldn't matter who is a jew or a hindu, or a Zoroastrian for that matter .. did you even bother read what your fellow christian quoted directly from your book? why all the contradictions and hypocrisy?
you should start by addressing those angry Jesusans by wtc. it seems your govt has committed a crime, pinned it on others, and finds so much value in rehashing it to foster all that Jesus love on daily basis by spreading hatred and instigating wars all over the middle east...
hypocrites in every way imaginable!
I am surprised at how ignorant the message in this post is. Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God, but have different beliefs about Him. They are all the Abrahamic religions. Christians believe that "He came unto his own", Muslims don't, but there is only one God so how could you believe that you believe in a different god?
Who ever preaches the Word of God by force is in the minority and is sinning. I don't know how you came up with 'many of you'. And I don't know what you mean by every imaginable warfare. That is something involving the American government and sheepish British government, it has nothing to do with Christians. The governments are also protecting those women who are having acid thrown in their face for receiving higher education.
God does love the Jews, Hindus and Zoroastrians. He doesn't only love those who can return the favour. If He only loves those who love Him, then why did He persist when the Israelites kept turning to idols and sacrificing their cihldren in pagan traditions?
The reason why there are different interpretations is because some people ignore Sacred Tradition, removed a lot from the Bible, adjusted it and don't take into account cultural aspects. Regardless, of this, the message of Christ remains the same. We still have the original Bible however and the churches are slowly being reunited, so please don't accuse it of contradictions.
And I'm sorry to say to make your argument meaningless, but the American government has nothing to do with Christianity.
Half of what I wrote wasn't to do with this thread
format_quote Originally Posted by FollowerOfChrist
Listen ,
EDITED by Woodrow (Offending word removed from original reply)
I was just simply answering you question. Now you wanna turn this into a debate.
I am not debating you, I am telling you things as viewed by others!
God is not like humans.
is that so? is that why he prayed to himself, da mned the earth for not bearing him fruit and then later self-immolated?
He is not capable of hating anyone. That's what makes him better than all of us.
see previous comment above including that out of your own book!
We believe in the God of Abraham right?
Who is the God of Abraham? is it Jesus?
Longer than Muslims.
Really how so? Paganism can't be made akin to monotheism, Zoroastrianism is even older than Christianity-- it doesn't make it anymore credible!
We believe Jesus IS that God in the flesh.
Indeed.. a mangod that leaves the universe behind to descend in west Asia can no longer be in keeping with strict monotheism, let alone the laws of logic!
It's the Muslims understanding of who God is that is different.
actually no, you are utterly monolithic in your beliefs.. no religion that came before or after christianity that is on the path of Abraham (Mandeans, Sabeans, Judiasm, Islam) believe in a self-immolating mangod to be the God of Abraham!
And WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??!?! You can't make generalizations like that about Christians.
You represent yourselves and you have been representing yourselves like unleashed satanists!
A lot of people who represent Islam make the religion look bad.
This concerns me how? It is utterly inconsequential to me, how you view Islam!
For example, I got muslim friends (mostly females) and most of them have abusive parents. I believe there's islamic folks that don't have crazy, psychotic, politcal beliefs like you do. I've never met one. And even though I never that doesn't a muslim that doesn't have nutty politcal beliefs, I'm not gonna make generalizations like you. What government talking about? Don't you know Muslims countries have some of the WORST government systems in the world. As a matter of fact, look at muslims countries compared Christian countries. There's been cases where rape victims have been stoned to death. And who stones people to death? Even the JEWS stopped doing that a minute ago. Why are y'all still doing it? The BIRTHPLACE of Islam is still doing it. I was just answersing your question. I really don't wanna argue with you, sweetie. You have HAVE this arguement.
I don't know what this diatribe is all about, I suggest you work on it, on your own private time, as I really haven't the time nor the interest to dignify gibber with a response.
However I'd refrain from calling me sweetheart, if you have a desire of membership sustainability on this forum, we don't take kindly to pornographic sentiments!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
@ follower of Christ, i'll leave The Vales Lily to reply to you if she so wants, but if you dare refer to any sisters here as "sweet heart" and the likes, i will personally make sure that your time here is cut short. i hope i have made myself clear.
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
Love Love Love is the only thing i see Christians preaching. with all this talk about love, 1. One wouldn't be blamed for thinking they were perfect 2. one also wouldn't be blamed for thinking they knew that loved turned sour...it doesn't take that much brains to figure it out and it certainly doesn't need all this going around in unnecessary circles.
it would be that much more better if they actually put their money where mouths are and implemented what they preach.
I would have thought that if one loves another that you don't make fabrications about him and/or speak on his behalf. Poor Isa, aleyhiasallam for the lies they attribute to him . Who likes things being spoken to about them in their behalf without their permission....doesn't sound like love to me.
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
The examples can be numerous but I suppose the above are enough to support my point of view. I wonder though how it is that for Muslims the above are statements proving Allah is an all-loving God.
The fact that you are still breathing and writing down the sentences above (and maybe leads a very comfortable life) while disbelieving in Allah SWT who created you and sustains you is itself undeniable proof that Allah SWT provides boundless mercy (what you prefer to call as "love") to everyone, even the disbelievers.
Now, the act of disbelieving in Him is your own choice, and everyone will be judged in the most just manner.
I am surprised at how ignorant the message in this post is. Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God, but have different beliefs about Him. They are all the Abrahamic religions. Christians believe that "He came unto his own", Muslims don't, but there is only one God so how could you believe that you believe in a different god?
I am surprised at the level of ignorance in your message.
Let me write it in black and white so that no one else attempt to confuse everything by using so many meaningless words.
Muslims ------> declare that there is no god but Allah, and worship The One God.
Christians -----> declare that God is a three person entities with the Father, the Son (who is a man born in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago) and uh...... oh yes... Holy Spirit! (this third person very rarely spoken about by christians that it is almost an afterthought whose purpose is to complete the trinity concept)
So, Muslims and christians definitely NOT worship the same god. You worship a human being (among others), we worship The One God.
Who ever preaches the Word of God by force is in the minority and is sinning. I don't know how you came up with 'many of you'. And I don't know what you mean by every imaginable warfare. That is something involving the American government and sheepish British government, it has nothing to do with Christians. The governments are also protecting those women who are having acid thrown in their face for receiving higher education.
Right. So the christian governments protecting women by killing a millions of them in afghanistan and Iraq?
Or, should I even mention "Rwanda" to remind our loving non-violent christian leaders?
God does love the Jews, Hindus and Zoroastrians. He doesn't only love those who can return the favour. If He only loves those who love Him, then why did He persist when the Israelites kept turning to idols and sacrificing their cihldren in pagan traditions?
God have mercy on everyone, but He rewards and punishes us according to our own deeds, and in the hereafter only His pardons and mercy that will save us.
The reason why there are different interpretations is because some people ignore Sacred Tradition, removed a lot from the Bible, adjusted it and don't take into account cultural aspects.
It seems to me that christianity is 0.1% what Jesus pbuh taught, and 99.9% what Paul and other folks commanded.
Regardless, of this, the message of Christ remains the same. We still have the original Bible however and the churches are slowly being reunited, so please don't accuse it of contradictions.
original bible?
which one is that?
the one that was written during the time of Jesus pbuh?
I'd like to read it.
Oh yes, there are countless contradictions in some mainstream versions of the bible (God knows how many versions there are), you may want to venture to the comparative religion section to read some related threads.
And I'm sorry to say to make your argument meaningless, but the American government has nothing to do with Christianity.
Half of what I wrote wasn't to do with this thread
fair enough.
Last edited by Tilmeez; 09-12-2010 at 07:28 PM.
Reason: You! my brother in Islam :)
Love Love Love is the only thing i see Christians preaching. with all this talk about love, 1. One wouldn't be blamed for thinking they were perfect 2. one also wouldn't be blamed for thinking they knew that loved turned sour...it doesn't take that much brains to figure it out and it certainly doesn't need all this going around in unnecessary circles.
it would be that much more better if they actually put their money where mouths are and implemented what they preach.
I would have thought that if one loves another that you don't make fabrications about him and/or speak on his behalf. Poor Isa, aleyhiasallam for the lies they attribute to him . Who likes things being spoken to about them in their behalf without their permission....doesn't sound like love to me.
Christians preach love because we are told "love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart... Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets". Of course we can never live up to His expectations, which is why we repent. You do the same, do you not?
Please don't tell us we are lying. Anyone who knows the basics of Christianity knows that Christians believe in the Holy Trinity and that Christ taught to pray for those who persecute us. If you tell us that that isn't in the Bible, then you must be reading that 'knitter's bible' that Waterstones is selling.
Any way, can't we just agree to disagree? Unless you believe in multiple gods, I don't know how you can accuse Christians of believing in a god different to yours. Of course we have different beliefs about Him, but I also have a different opinion of my boyfriend to my mum. Doesn't mean I have two boyfriends and that my mum is lying about him. It's what she believes his personality to be.
Anyway, to conclude my discovery, I have the impression from these posts, that in Islam, God doesn't love everybody and that if you don't have the Islamic belief, then you are a liar. Is this correct?
Christians preach love because we are told "love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart... Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets". Of course we can never live up to His expectations, which is why we repent. You do the same, do you not?
agreed - If you want to know the answer of the question does God love everybody? - You should see how much the indivdual loves God. Why should God love somebody who doesnt care about God? and doesnt love God at all?
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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. Who likes things being spoken to about them in their behalf without their permission....doesn't sound like love to me.
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