Evolution and Islam are mutually exclusive

Thanks for the great reply abz2000

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Originally Posted by Serinity

Brilliant reply. May Allah SWT bless you and all of us. Ameen.

It'd be impossible without a intelligent designer. They may say "But there is a chance" is like saying "jumping down this building without breaking anything is poosible" only someone without common sense would say that.

The ascending numeric order would NEVER happen. Just like me being created would never have happened if Allah SWT didn't create me. Common sense tells that. Only someone with a lot of faith on 'chance' would say otherwise.

Tell me, what I am writing now, could it be by chance?! Could an air plane flying in their air be random? Could a plane be formed if I threw items at the wall? Or if I threw a deck of cars, would it be able to be arranged in a numerical order? NO, never could it happen. Ever.

Why? Because our minds would never accept it, why? Because it is soo unlikely it is impossible. It can't happen, there is no chance it could. Actually it'd require more faith to believe that by chance it could happen, than to believe it can't happen. It'd require soo much faith, it'd be blind faith. But the rebellious ones earn Jahannam.

Because our minds tells us for something to ascend in numerical order, or a car to be made requires intelligence. For a plane to be built requires intelligence.

I see this whole "chance" thing as blind faith.

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You're thinking about this very primitively. Imagine you have a box of 1million dice and you throw the box in the air, what are the chances that every single die will land on 1? It's incredibly low, but not impossible. I'll tell you why.

Because no matter what the dice will land... and they will land on a number. So the probability of the dice all landing on 1 is the exact same as them landing in any other configuration. Just because it's ordered, does not mean it's less likely lol. It's like playing the lottery, you may think the numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 is less likely than say 5,9,13,23,26,27,37 but they're exactly the same. So your deck of cards analogy is flawed because as long as it's not impossible, there is always a chance, just a very very very low chance.

Also one thing I notice about humans is our ability to think is governed by what we know to be true. You're absolutely right that a chair cannot create itself or a glass of water cannot fill itself etc but this is because we live in a system where everything needs to be created. Can we really apply this thought process to the universe? If so then by extension god would also need to be created. Perhaps the answer is so complex we cannot even think of the correct question to ask.

Imagine showing the inner workings of a jet engine to a monkey, the monkey will have literally no idea whatsoever about how it works, the monkey probably cannot even begin to think about the correct questions to even ask. To the monkey, it's simply incomprehensible. I honestly believe humans and the universe is like monkeys are a jet engine. We simply cannot even fathom how it came to be. We just don't have the ability to process such questions.

What all of this has to do with your the first question to us? You asked what is Muslims´opinion about evolution and now you are explaining here your own opinions about science and this and that like you would like to make us to think alike. What you at least try to prove with kind of posts? Propably that we Muslims shouldn´t believe as we do?

We have had here many atheists and agnostics before and with them kind of discussions usually goes far to the outer space. And definitely out of topic.

And by the way, we don´t play lottery. Islam forbids the gambling.

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Originally Posted by sister herb

What all of this has to do with your the first question to us? You asked what is Muslims´opinion about evolution and now you are explaining here your own opinions about science and this and that like you would like to make us to think alike. What you at least try to prove with kind of posts? Propably that we Muslims shouldn´t believe as we do?

We have had here many atheists and agnostics before and with them kind of discussions usually goes far to the outer space. And definitely out of topic.

And by the way, we don´t play lottery. Islam forbids the gambling.

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I said right from the start I'm only interested in the evolutionary argument but others insisted on talking about creation of the universe...

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Originally Posted by Lucozade

Thanks for the great reply abz2000




You're thinking about this very primitively. Imagine you have a box of 1million dice and you throw the box in the air, what are the chances that every single die will land on 1? It's incredibly low, but not impossible. I'll tell you why.

Because no matter what the dice will land... and they will land on a number. So the probability of the dice all landing on 1 is the exact same as them landing in any other configuration. Just because it's ordered, does not mean it's less likely lol. It's like playing the lottery, you may think the numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 is less likely than say 5,9,13,23,26,27,37 but they're exactly the same. So your deck of cards analogy is flawed because as long as it's not impossible, there is always a chance, just a very very very low chance.

Also one thing I notice about humans is our ability to think is governed by what we know to be true. You're absolutely right that a chair cannot create itself or a glass of water cannot fill itself etc but this is because we live in a system where everything needs to be created. Can we really apply this thought process to the universe? If so then by extension god would also need to be created. Perhaps the answer is so complex we cannot even think of the correct question to ask.

Imagine showing the inner workings of a jet engine to a monkey, the monkey will have literally no idea whatsoever about how it works, the monkey probably cannot even begin to think about the correct questions to even ask. To the monkey, it's simply incomprehensible. I honestly believe humans and the universe is like monkeys are a jet engine. We simply cannot even But the rebellious ones earn Jahannam.ng fathom how it came to be. We just don't have the ability to process such questions.

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There is no such thing as chance. I don't believe in chance. Everything is determined by Allah SWT, everything is fixed.

IF I throw a dice, it is already determined before hand. I have a chance of getting an 1 1/6, but overall, everything is determined by Allah SWT, not chance. You may believe in chance, I do not.

If I throw a dice, there is the wind, the strength of throw, the landings the rotations, etc. Everything is governed by the Laws of Allah SWT. So nothing is random, it only appears to us like that. Rather, we are too incompetent to calculate whether it will be a 1 or a 5.

Everything that is exists is created and thus needs a Creator who is not created, as He SWT is the Creator. The laws and rules are created by Allah SWT. so the laws of creation itself only applies to the creation, not Allah SWT.

my mind can't accept that a PC could assemble itself, or by chance. It is virtually impossible.

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Originally Posted by Lucozade

I said right from the start I'm only interested in the evolutionary argument but others insisted on talking about creation of the universe...

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How's that deck of cards experiment working for you? Any "luck?"

Fact is, the deck experiment will NEVER succeed, and it is stupid to rely on chance. It is blind faith, Wallah.

Anyways, I ain't going to in this debate.

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Originally Posted by Serinity

There is no such thing as chance. I don't believe in chance. Everything is determined by Allah SWT, everything is fixed.

IF I throw a dice, it is already determined before hand. I have a chance of getting an 1 1/6, but overall, everything is determined by Allah SWT, not chance. You may believe in chance, I do not.

If I throw a dice, there is the wind, the strength of throw, the landings the rotations, etc. Everything is governed by the Laws of Allah SWT. So nothing is random, it only appears to us like that. Rather, we are too incompetent to calculate whether it will be a 1 or a 5.

Everything that is exists is created and thus needs a Creator who is not created, as He SWT is the Creator. The laws and rules are created by Allah SWT. so the laws of creation itself only applies to the creation, not Allah SWT.

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So you're claiming that Allah will NEVER allow the deck of cards to land in order? Who are you to decide this? You're claiming to know what Allah will and will not allow.

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Originally Posted by Lucozade

So you're claiming that Allah will NEVER allow the deck of cards to land in order? Who are you to decide this? You're claiming to know what Allah will and will not allow.

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I won't play into your games, and no that was not what I said. It simply won't happen, unless Allah SWT wills it.

By Allah SWT, it could happen IF ALLAH SWT Willed it, but By Allah SWT, it will NEVER happen by Chance. Get the difference? Chance doesn't govern anything, it is Allah SWT that governs the Universe by His Laws.

Point is, it can never happen by chance.

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Originally Posted by Lucozade

So you're claiming that Allah will NEVER allow the deck of cards to land in order? Who are you to decide this? You're claiming to know what Allah will and will not allow.

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No you are foolishly claiming that by random "chance" that it will happen without Divine Order. You are the fool here. Not us.

you gotta admit, belief in chance is the most superstitious belief on earth.

I am going to post this story about the debate between Imam Abu Hanifah and the atheist. This sums it up without any further time wasted on such people...

Long ago in the city of Baghdad, there was a Muslim empire. On one side of the River Tigris were the royal palaces and on the other side was the city. The Muslims were gathered in the Royal Palace when an atheist approached them. He said to them, ‘I don’t believe in God, there cannot be a God, you cannot hear Him or see Him, you’re wasting your time! Bring me your best debater and I will debate this issue with him.’

The best debater at the time was Imam Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. A messenger from among the Muslims was sent over the River Tigris to the city, where Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was, in order to tell him about the atheist who was awaiting him. On crossing the River Tigris, the messenger conveyed the message to Abu Hanifah Rahimullah saying, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, an atheist is waiting for you, to debate you, please come!’ Abu Hanifah Rahimullah told the messenger that he would be on his way.
The messenger went over the River Tigris once again and to the Royal Palaces, where everyone including the atheist awaited the arrival of Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. It was sunset at the time and one hour had passed, but Abu Hanifah Rahimullah still hadn’t arrived. Another hour had passed, but still there was no sign of him. The Muslims started to become tense and worried about his late arrival. They did not want the atheist to think that they were too scared to debate him, yet they did not want to take up the challenge themselves as Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was the best of Debaters from among the Muslims. Another hour passed, and suddenly the atheist started laughing and said, ‘ Your best debater is too scared! He knows he’s wrong, he is too frightened to come and debate with me. I guarantee he will not turn up today.’

The Muslims increased in apprehension and eventually it had passed midnight, and the atheist had a smile on his face. The clock ticked on, and finally Abu Hanifah Rahimullah had arrived. The Muslims inquired about his lateness and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, a messenger sent for you hours ago, and you arrive now, explain your lateness to us.’

Abu Hanifah Rahimullah apologizes for his lateness and begins to explain, while the atheist listens to his story.

‘Once the messenger delivered the message to me, I began to make my way to the River Tigris, and on reaching the river bank I realized there was no boat, in order to cross the river. It was getting dark, and I looked around, there was no boat anywhere nor was there a navigator or a sailor in order for me to cross the river to get to the Royal Palaces. I continued to look around for a boat, as I did not want the atheist to think I was running away and did not want to debate with him.

I was standing on the river bank looking for a navigator or a boat when something caught my attention in the middle of the river. I looked forward, and to my amazement I saw planks of wood rising to the surface from the sea bed. I was shocked, amazed, I couldn’t believe what I saw seeing. Ready made planks of wood were rising up to the surface and joining together. They were all the same width and length, I was astounded at what I saw.

I continued to look into the middle of the river, and then I saw nails coming up from the sea floor. They positioned themselves onto the boat and held the planks together, without them being banged. I stood in amazement and thought to myself, ‘Oh Allah, how can this happen, planks of wood rising to the surface by itself, and then nails positioning themselves onto the boat without being banged?’ I could not understand what was happening before my eyes.’

The atheist meanwhile was listening with a smile on his face. Abu Hanifah Rahimullah continued, ‘I was still standing on the river bank watching these planks of wood join together with nails. I could see water seeping through the gaps in the wood, and suddenly I saw a sealant appear from the river and it began sealing the gaps without someone having poured it, again I thought, ‘Ya Allah, how is this possible, how can sealant appear and seal the gaps without someone having poured it, and nails appear without someone having banged them.’ I looked closer and I could see a boat forming before my eyes, I stood in amazement and was filled with shock. All of a sudden a sail appeared and I thought to myself, ‘How is this happening, a boat has appeared before my eyes by itself, planks of wood, nails, sealant and now a sail, but how can I use this boat in order to cross the river to the Royal Palaces?’ I stood staring in wonderment and suddenly the boat began to move. It came towards me against the current. It stood floating beside me while I was on the river bank, as if telling me to embark onto it. I went on the boat and yet again it began to move. There was no navigator or sailor on the boat, and the boat began to travel towards the direction of the royal palaces, without anyone having programmed it as to where to go. I could not understand what was happening, and how this boat had formed and was taking me to my destination against the flow of water. The boat eventually reached the other side of the River Tigris and I disembarked. I turned around and the boat had disappeared, and that is why I am late.’

At this moment, the atheist burst out laughing and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, I heard that you were the best debater from among the Muslims, I heard that you were the wisest, the most knowledgeable from among your people. From seeing you today, I can say that you show none of these qualities. You speak of a boat appearing from nowhere, without someone having built it. Nails positioning themselves without someone having banged them, sealant being poured without someone having poured it, and the boat taking you to your destination without a navigator against the tide, your taking childish, your talking ridiculous, I swear I do not believe a word of it!’

Abu Hanifah Rahimullah turned to the atheist and replied, ‘You don’t believe a word of it? You don't believe that nails can appear by themselves? You don't believe sealant can be poured by itself? You don't believe that a boat can move without a navigator, hence you don’t believe that a boat can appear without a boat maker?’

The atheist remarked defiantly, ‘Yes I don't believe a word of it!’

Abu Hanifah Rahimullah replied, ‘If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the whole world, the universe, the stars, the oceans, and the planets came into being without a creator?

The atheist astonished at his reply got up and fled.

I was hoping for a mature discussion about Islam, Muslims and evolution. Clearly this isn't going to happen so thanks for your time. Thanks to the few who did engage in this topic and provided a decent reply.

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Originally Posted by Lucozade

I was hoping for a mature discussion about Islam, Muslims and evolution. Clearly this isn't going to happen so thanks for your time. Thanks to the few who did engage in this topic and provided a decent reply.

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So you did exactly what the atheist did with Abu Hanifah: got up and fled. Don't let the door hit your backside on the way out...

Greetings,

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Originally Posted by Misbah0411

No you are foolishly claiming that by random "chance" that it will happen without Divine Order. You are the fool here. Not us.

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Nobody is claiming that. By saying this, you indicate that you do not understand the evolutionist position. Serinity has had this explained to him many times and he still doesn't understand it either.

The evidence overwhelmingly points to evolution by natural selection; there is no debate in the scientific community about that. Your inability to understand it will not alter this fact.

Peace

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Originally Posted by czgibson

Greetings,



Nobody is claiming that. By saying this, you indicate that you do not understand the evolutionist position. Serinity has had this explained to him many times and he still doesn't understand it either.

The evidence overwhelmingly points to evolution by natural selection; there is no debate in the scientific community about that. Your inability to understand it will not alter this fact.

Peace

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Now I challenge you to throw them deck of cards in the air and see if they fall down in the order that I requested. I too will give you millions of years to do it. Good luck....

Proteins Isomers and Peptide bonds... more milliseconds have passed since the big bang than the likelihood of these forming anything by chance... this unholy trinity of evolution theory is a fatal Achilles heel in their agenda.

Scimi

Greetings,

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Originally Posted by Misbah0411

Now I challenge you to throw them deck of cards in the air and see if they fall down in the order that I requested. I too will give you millions of years to do it. Good luck....

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Why? This is a pointless challenge that has nothing to do with the truth or otherwise of evolution. Again, you show that you do not understand the position.

Peace

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Originally Posted by czgibson

Greetings,



Why? This is a pointless challenge that has nothing to do with the truth or otherwise of evolution. Again, you show that you do not understand the position.

Peace

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It exposes the.......

In the end only Allah SWT can guide. we are only a warner.

It is clear for the one who use reason that Allah SWT created this Universe, but the disbelievers refuse to reason, and insist on their falsehood, trying to destroy truth by their mouths.

The way every cell has been created, and how small it is, very small and compact yet contains soo much information.

we have not seen a single example of something forming by bombing a place or throwing cards at the wall, hoping for some intelligent being to form. Simply ridiculous. Our minds will never accept it - cause it is falsehood.
Everyone will be questioned on the day of judgment. None will be wronged.

Greetings,

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Originally Posted by Misbah0411

It exposes the .........

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Do you think this kind of talk is what Allah had in mind when he instructed you to "argue with them in a way that is best" (Qur'an 16:125)?

Peace