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    Why is the Koran True? (OP)


    Hello everyone. I'm new here, and I'm hoping to stick around and have good discussions.

    My purpose for this thread is to ask you all, in your own words, why you consider the narrative in the Koran to be the accurate and unaltered word of god.

    I realize this may seem like a silly question, so I'll provide context for my curiosity. I'm an apatheist, someone who doesn't think that the existence or nonexistence of deities is an important question. Whether one exists or not, to me, is neither here nor there; I care about how a person acts and what they do for the people around them, and less about why they do the things they do. I have read a lot of religious texts in my life, however, because I find religion both fascinating and nonetheless a decent source of philosophy.

    This philosophical view is what brought me to this forum. I have read the Koran twice now, once in English and once in German, unfortunately I do not speak Arabic or I'd have read it in that, too. For the most part, I like the philosophical message of the Koran, very much. I think it's undeniably more comprehensive/tolerant than any other Abrahamic text, and is also much clearer and less allegorical than most other religious texts. I don't think it's perfect, of course, but the philosophical and moral framework that one can construct from its pages are, at worst, decent, and at best they're conducive to a rather functional society. I like it enough, in fact, that I've found myself idly considering the idea of joining a muslim community.

    My hang-up, however, is the belief aspect. I can (and do) respect the Koran as a philosophical text, a historical text, and even as a moral treatise. My issue is the last leap to actual belief in a deity. I understand that the pillars of Islam require the belief that there is no god but god, and that Muhammad was his last messenger, but the idea of believing in something that can't be established as observably true is difficult for me, especially since I have never put much thought or care into the existence of deities one way or another.

    So, to re-iterate my question, how do you all get past this point? What made you take the leap of faith, as it were? How do you reconcile the unprovable nature of the divine with the modern, materialist world?

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

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    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post

    If you agree that it is very statistically unlikely that life is being created without God, then what other logical answer can there be? and what exactly is keeping you from believing in God? I do not find that logical.
    While again, I understand your thought process, just because something is supremely unlikely doesn't mean that god is the inevitable alternative. I'm not necessarily ruling it out, but a lack of proof for something doesn't necessitate that a god is responsible. Furthermore, let's say that one does believe that the universe needed, at the very least, an original push from some kind of creator deity. Why would it be the god of Islam? That's more what I'm here to find out from all of you; why, out of all the religions of the world, should/would someone choose this god over the millions of others? Everyone is an atheist when it comes to all religions other than one's own, after all.


    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    So, this person would be rewarded greatly for his good deeds, but in the end he will not be granted into heaven.
    What rewards exist other than heaven? I do not remember a part of the Koran that mentions this, but it was a while ago that I last read it. I'd be grateful if you could point me in the right direction, in terms of the Suras that mention this particular part.


    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    I do not know whether you mean yourself with "this person", but if it is you, then I would recommend you to remove this doubt and start truely believing in God. as you can see it is very logical and you do not have to give up logic, reason and science for it.

    Your well being is very dependant on this.
    It's 50% me and 50% hypothetical

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    Update:

    Let me please elaborate this a little:
    (The description I give in this post is as far as I think how it would be. to my fellow muslims: If I am wrong, I am sorry, so please correct me.)
    After your death you will be going through some stages:
    first the Barzaq, this is the time between your death and the Day of Judgement. The time in Barzaq is relative. It is different for every individual. Some will experience it as a few seconds, or hours...other will experience it as centuries.
    After the Day of Judgement there is eternal Heaven or eternal Hell. This is an absulute day for every individual. Everyone will be awakened from the death and walk into Heaven or fall in Hell on this day.

    So during the Barzaq you will have these options:
    if you have died with faith in God in your heart, but you have sins, this would be weight against your good deeds and compensated, if you still have sins left over, you will be punished for these greatly. For those people, Barzaq can be one of the pits of Hell.

    if you have died with no faith in God, but you have done a lot of good deeds, this would be weight against your sins and compensated, if you still have good deeds left over, you will be rewarded greatly for this. For those people, Barzaq can be one of the gardens of Heaven.

    Eventually, on the Judgement day, when we all awake at the same time...Believers will be totally sin free as for the disbelievers will be totally good-deeds-free. We all will see the Heaven on the other side of a deep canyon. the bottom of this canyon is Hell.
    the Heaven is only reachable by crossing a bridge, the Siraat bridge. this Brigde is a wide bridge for believers, but it will become very narrow for disbelievers. people who manage to get to the other side (with Gods mercy) will enter Heaven for eternity. others will fall off the bridge into Hell for eternity.


    So, again, it all boils down to believing or not believing in God.


    I have to nuance this a little bit.

    God is mercyfull. if you have faith in God in your heart with the weight of a mustard seed, you will be considered as a believer.
    Eventually, God is the one who will judge over you.
    See, this is more what I was looking for! Thanks for elaborating. The "believe or burn forever" idea has always made me pause, and it's something that is relatively unique to Abrahamic religions. But this actually seems to reflect the constant claims of muslims and the Koran that their god is one of mercy, since those who live righteous lives still sound like they will have that taken into consideration.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    Then one would conclude that the person hasn't read or studied the Quran as one of the central claims of the Quran is that is from God. It underpins the whole moral, existential, eschatological message.
    True! However, I'm curious as to the general opinion of someone who, for whatever reason, didn't believe that the Koran was created by a god but who nevertheless supported the philosophical and moral framework it provided.

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    While again, I understand your thought process, just because something is supremely unlikely doesn't mean that god is the inevitable alternative. I'm not necessarily ruling it out, but a lack of proof for something doesn't necessitate that a god is responsible. Furthermore, let's say that one does believe that the universe needed, at the very least, an original push from some kind of creator deity. Why would it be the god of Islam? That's more what I'm here to find out from all of you; why, out of all the religions of the world, should/would someone choose this god over the millions of others? Everyone is an atheist when it comes to all religions other than one's own, after all.
    Fair point.
    just because something is supremely unlikely doesn't mean that god is the inevitable alternative. if you have a theory and after examining it the theory tuns out to be false then you have to think out another theory. That is how science works. In this case however you have already an alternative. God proved his existence time after time with his miracles. with mozes splitting the seas, with noah and his ark, with Jesus healing the sick and bringing the dead back to life, with Mohammed with the revelation of the Quran. People just had to acknowledge his existence.

    If you look at how the Quran is revealed. Mohammed pbuh was illiterate...he could not have written the Quran on his own. Yet the Quran is revealed part by part in 20 years time with his help. It's style is poetic all over and the style does not change, that means, no indication that there was a second author.
    If you analyse the Quran you would see it is flawless. The verses do not contradict with each other (you have to read the Tafsir also to fully understand what the verses are about) and nothing in the Quran contradicts with science.
    (This is a challenge to find a mistake in the Quran)

    In short, the revelation of the Quran is miraculous. You just have to see and acknowledge that.

    Why God of Islam? There is no God of Islam. There is only one God...our God...it is the God of the Jews, Christians, Hindu, Budhists and all other religions. God created first Adam pbuh. After Adam people started to add innovations to their faith. there was no one to correct them, so slowly they started to wander of the right path and a new religion was born. God send a new prophet to guide the people to the right path out of mercy. History repeated himself over and over again...every time creating a new religion and every time a prophet was send to them to guide people back to the one universal religion. So every prophet, Jesus pbuh, Mozes pbuh, Abraham pbuh, Adam pbuh, Noah pbuh, Solomon pbuh, David pbuh, Muhammed pbuh and many many others...all share the same universal religion. Islam is not the name of the religion...It is just Arabic for "submission to God". It contains every other religion.

    Do you think it is coincidence that the basic message of every religion is the same? the basic morals and teachings are the same...well that is why.
    You can find flaws in every other religion. just investigate and you will find out. You will never find flaws in Islam.

    So, summarized...God can never be proven using pure science. God already ruled that out, because if that could be proven...then we did not have to believe Him...our test here on earth would be useless.
    So Existence of God cannot be proven.
    You have to see the miracles around you and the miracles in the past and trust that he is there. God provided miracles all over..you just have to see it.
    Islam is the universal religion and is flawless. all other religions contain flaws.
    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    What rewards exist other than heaven? I do not remember a part of the Koran that mentions this, but it was a while ago that I last read it. I'd be grateful if you could point me in the right direction, in terms of the Suras that mention this particular part.
    There are many other rewards. Going to heaven is not the only reward. two people in Heaven would experience Heaven totally different. Eating the same fruit would cause a much greater pleasure for the one than for the other...but since they cannot feel each others experiences...ther will not be jealousy between them.
    As said, Barzaq can be one of the gardens of Heaven for a limited period of time. this is also a reward.
    The ultimate reward is to be in front of God
    Then you have many many suras who speak about rewards when you do this or do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post

    It's 50% me and 50% hypothetical

    See, this is more what I was looking for! Thanks for elaborating. The "believe or burn forever" idea has always made me pause, and it's something that is relatively unique to Abrahamic religions. But this actually seems to reflect the constant claims of muslims and the Koran that their god is one of mercy, since those who live righteous lives still sound like they will have that taken into consideration.
    The punishment of Hell for eternity is needed to give us the true freedom of will. you have to be able to choose consiously between good and evil otherwise it has no use. you have to have a choice between good and bad to be able to choose...without the bad, you cannot choose for the good...God can not pretend to have an eternal hell...that would be lying...Then God would be an imposter...So eternal Hell is actually an option.

    But again...God is mercyfull. you would have to do a lot wrong to deserve eternal Hell. If you would repent at the last second of your lifetime...or if you have faith in God with the weight of a mustard grain...your final destination will be Heaven.
    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    True! However, I'm curious as to the general opinion of someone who, for whatever reason, didn't believe that the Koran was created by a god but who nevertheless supported the philosophical and moral framework it provided.
    Again...that is not enough. if you absolutely ruled God out of your heart...then you can support the philosophical framework of the Quran all you want...but that will not benefit you much...You may experience Heaven in Barzaq for a very long time...but eventually on judgement day...your destination would be hell after all.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    I suppose i was attracted to Islam from finding God first, then Islam..Which i think is the opposite to the OP..

    The only way to truly beleive in God in my experience is open your heart and mind to Him, take a good honest look at yourself and ask Him to forgive your sins..Ask Him for guidnace and mercy and see what happens..Look for a sign.

    I dont think its possible to truly believe in God unless you open your heart and mind to Him first.

    I believe the Quran is the Truth as it describes what i experinced and observed on my spiritual journey..
    Last edited by beleiver; 2 Weeks Ago at 12:23 PM.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    https://iera.org/product/the-eternal-challenge-2/

    Best part is, it's free to order the book! All the answers are in this book, in sh'Allah

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    Why is the Koran True?


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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Plain and Easy

    Its from the Creator of the everything it exists and all major religions have Prophesied its coming with the last messenger of the Creator Lord and so its true a holy book with no discrepancies , see these threads how other religions Prophesied this last Testament with the last Messenger of God, The Creator.

    https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/mi...ot-be-mohammed

    https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/mi...-muhammad-pbuh

    - - - Updated - - -

    Plain and Easy

    Its from the Creator of the everything it exists and all major religions have Prophesied its coming with the last messenger of the Creator Lord and so its true, see these threads how other religions Prophesied this last Testament with the last Messenger of God, The Creator.

    https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/mi...ot-be-mohammed

    https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/mi...-muhammad-pbuh
    Why is the Koran True?

    My Sect : No Sect

    My Aqeedha : Aqeedha of Sahabas as in http://legacy.quran.com/112

    Just a Muslim with Glorious Quran and (hadith) sunnah as my guide as in verse 41:33 '' And who is better in speech than one who invites to Allah and does righteousness and says, "Indeed, I am of the Muslims."

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    God proved his existence time after time with his miracles. with mozes splitting the seas, with noah and his ark, with Jesus healing the sick and bringing the dead back to life, with Mohammed with the revelation of the Quran. People just had to acknowledge his existence.
    Other religions have their stories of miracles too, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    If you look at how the Quran is revealed. Mohammed pbuh was illiterate...he could not have written the Quran on his own. Yet the Quran is revealed part by part in 20 years time with his help. It's style is poetic all over and the style does not change, that means, no indication that there was a second author.
    If you analyse the Quran you would see it is flawless. The verses do not contradict with each other (you have to read the Tafsir also to fully understand what the verses are about) and nothing in the Quran contradicts with science.
    (This is a challenge to find a mistake in the Quran)
    This is actually something I find intriguing, and a large part of why I decided to post on this forum in the first place. Granted, I've only read the Koran in translation, but the idea that a (supposedly) illiterate trader with no real knowledge of anything other than trading matters could write something such as the Koran is unlikely at best and worth investigating at worst. I'm an amateur linguist (I speak English, German, Mandarin, my Russian and Spanish is alright, and in university I studied Old English, Old Norse, and Middle Egyptian) and my interest in the Koran partially stems from my interest, via Middle Egyptian, of Classical Arabic. From the small parts I've been able to learn enough to understand, the poetry is very advanced. Does this mean it HAS to be divine? No. But, it doesn't rule divinity out, I suppose.

    Something I find troubling, though, is that to "fully understand" the Koran, I've heard from many sources that you need to read this, and read that, and talk to so-and-so, and etc etc. It seems like one needs a degree in Koranic studies to "fully understand" the text. This seems to contradict sure 16:89, though, which is and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything (16:89). Wouldn't a book that is designed to be the clear word of a creator deity logically be easy to understand? Why would the revelations not be clear, with easy to understand examples? Some of the Koran is very straightforward, absolutely, but some isn't. This seems counterintuitive.


    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    Do you think it is coincidence that the basic message of every religion is the same? the basic morals and teachings are the same...well that is why.
    You can find flaws in every other religion. just investigate and you will find out. You will never find flaws in Islam.
    I think that depends on how you determine flaws. Logical contradictions? Maybe not. I can't say that I'm very pleased with the treatment of women, however. Is that a logical flaw? No, but it's still not something that I would consider a positive thing. I think its issues are fewer than many other spiritual paths, for sure, but it isn't flawless.



    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    So, summarized...God can never be proven using pure science. God already ruled that out, because if that could be proven...then we did not have to believe Him...our test here on earth would be useless.
    So Existence of God cannot be proven.
    This is a common thread for most religions, unfortunately. It's also the part that I struggle with.



    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    Again...that is not enough. if you absolutely ruled God out of your heart...then you can support the philosophical framework of the Quran all you want...but that will not benefit you much...You may experience Heaven in Barzaq for a very long time...but eventually on judgement day...your destination would be hell after all.
    What happens to those who don't have the option to convert to Islam? For argument's sake, what happens to the people who live in remote areas and never are exposed to this religion?

    Thank you for your continued engagement! I appreciate you taking the time to engage with all my inquiry.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by beleiver View Post
    I suppose i was attracted to Islam from finding God first, then Islam..Which i think is the opposite to the OP..

    The only way to truly beleive in God in my experience is open your heart and mind to Him, take a good honest look at yourself and ask Him to forgive your sins..Ask Him for guidnace and mercy and see what happens..Look for a sign.

    I dont think its possible to truly believe in God unless you open your heart and mind to Him first.

    I believe the Quran is the Truth as it describes what i experinced and observed on my spiritual journey..
    How did you find a god before having a religion to base it on? Or are you meaning that you were a different religion before converting to Islam?

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Best thing to do is get off mass media including news for a week if possible so that you become more aware of yourself and the reality of your surroundings without anyone else putting a slant on it for you, get into focus mode with a few algebra exercises, then read it without illogical prejudice like a baby takes in knowledge, and then compare it with every other way of life you know about, then come to a conclusion being honest with yourself. The next step if uncertain would be to read a respectable biography of the Prophet (pbuh) from a follower of his way.
    One of the most important things to do is to try and focus on what's being explained as if taking it from a very high ranking teacher and whilst trying to avoid the stimulus generalizations and comparisons from movies, secular news pieces, soaps and commercials that flash before the mind and bewitch the victim because a book never is the same when you've already watched the movie, your own projections are stifled and the first gif file your brain finds and flashes and compares with as reference points are from algorithms which are the most familiar feeling or frequently occuring.

    Hence the goodly word negates falsehood then confirms truth upon truth.
    Why is the Koran True?

    Long ago has hope perished, as have our men of honor
    M.A



    The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    Best thing to do is get off mass media including news for a week if possible so that you become more aware of yourself and the reality of your surroundings without anyone else putting a slant on it for you, get into focus mode with a few algebra exercises, then read it without illogical prejudice like a baby takes in knowledge, and then compare it with every other way of life you know about, then come to a conclusion being honest with yourself. The next step if uncertain would be to read a respectable biography of the Prophet (pbuh) from a follower of his way.
    One of the most important things to do is to try and focus on what's being explained as if taking it from a very high ranking teacher and whilst trying to avoid the stimulus generalizations and comparisons from movies, secular news pieces, soaps and commercials that flash before the mind and bewitch the victim because a book never is the same when you've already watched the movie, your own projections are stifled and the first gif file your brain finds and flashes and compares with as reference points are from algorithms which are the most familiar feeling or frequently occuring.

    Hence the goodly word negates falsehood then confirms truth upon truth.
    I work as a software developer so getting off of the internet for extended periods of time is difficult, if not impossible. However, I do go camping/hiking often, so I'll bring the Koran with me next time I do that. I usually bring a book of some kind, so it won't change the routine very much.

    As for biographies, while I haven't read a full biography of Muhammad, I have read After the Prophet by Lesely Hazelton, as well as The Complete History of Islam, by Karen Armstrong, so I'm not entirely ignorant of the history and events surrounding that time period. Do you have recommendations for a good biography?

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    The sealed nectar

    And

    Abridged biography of prophet muhammad by abdul wahhab at-tamimi
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    Why is the Koran True?

    Long ago has hope perished, as have our men of honor
    M.A



    The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress

    Frederick Douglas

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    How did you find a god before having a religion to base it on? Or are you meaning that you were a different religion before converting to Islam?
    To cut a long story short, it was when i was at a low point in my life and one day i tried meditatation..
    I reflected on my problems and contemplated Truthfully how i got where i was, I had this realisation that most my woes were my own doing as much as the people i blamed (my ex and her new spouse) i decided to let go and forgive, but who would forgive me? And then i remembered God..
    While i was in this moment of clarity i simply asked Him to forgive my sins (which were many) and kind of made a pact to try and be a better more positive person and not think anymore negative thoughts, It felt such a weight was lifted from my soul i literally felt like i was floating..
    The following weeks and years my luck changed and i had many coincidences and such which confimed i was on to something, and it went from there..
    2 | Likes umie, greenhill liked this post

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    The sealed nectar

    And

    Abridged biography of prophet muhammad by abdul wahhab at-tamimi
    That's great, thanks!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by beleiver View Post
    To cut a long story short, it was when i was at a low point in my life and one day i tried meditatation..
    I reflected on my problems and contemplated Truthfully how i got where i was, I had this realisation that most my woes were my own doing as much as the people i blamed (my ex and her new spouse) i decided to let go and forgive, but who would forgive me? And then i remembered God..
    While i was in this moment of clarity i simply asked Him to forgive my sins (which were many) and kind of made a pact to try and be a better more positive person and not think anymore negative thoughts, It felt such a weight was lifted from my soul i literally felt like i was floating..
    The following weeks and years my luck changed and i had many coincidences and such which confimed i was on to something, and it went from there..
    Interesting. So you began meditating and felt a presence? That's intriguing. Were you muslim before, or were you of a different abrahamic denomination? What lead you to this particular religion? How many years have you been practicing?

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    Other religions have their stories of miracles too, though.
    of course. the origin is the same. God sends his prophets to those people, provides them miracles, they are being guided to the correct path...but after some generations people start to add innovations to it and a new religion is created, complete with its own God, prophet and even miracles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post

    This is actually something I find intriguing, and a large part of why I decided to post on this forum in the first place. Granted, I've only read the Koran in translation, but the idea that a (supposedly) illiterate trader with no real knowledge of anything other than trading matters could write something such as the Koran is unlikely at best and worth investigating at worst. I'm an amateur linguist (I speak English, German, Mandarin, my Russian and Spanish is alright, and in university I studied Old English, Old Norse, and Middle Egyptian) and my interest in the Koran partially stems from my interest, via Middle Egyptian, of Classical Arabic. From the small parts I've been able to learn enough to understand, the poetry is very advanced. Does this mean it HAS to be divine? No. But, it doesn't rule divinity out, I suppose.
    If notice, this is the second issue you mention that is does not HAS to be divine...but very like it is...but you have no alternative.

    1st the creation of life that it is very unlikely that it happened on its own...
    2nd an illiterate person to reveal a complicated book like the Quren...

    Are you waiting for more indications to finally see the miracle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post

    Something I find troubling, though, is that to "fully understand" the Koran, I've heard from many sources that you need to read this, and read that, and talk to so-and-so, and etc etc. It seems like one needs a degree in Koranic studies to "fully understand" the text. This seems to contradict sure 16:89, though, which is and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything (16:89). Wouldn't a book that is designed to be the clear word of a creator deity logically be easy to understand? Why would the revelations not be clear, with easy to understand examples? Some of the Koran is very straightforward, absolutely, but some isn't. This seems counterintuitive.

    I am not asking you to read anything. I do not like that at all. But the Tafsir is something different. It is a guide, a reference book which systematically gives background information on every surah and verse in what period it was revealed, what was happening in the world at that moment, what the verse is referring to and the translation of it.
    You see, the Quran can be too direct sometimes. For example it speaks about disobedient people in the past who were turned into apes as a punishment to set an example. (Al-Baqara/ The Cow 2/65-66)
    To understand this verse, you need to know who these people were and what they have done wrong. The Tafsir provides you this kind of information.
    THe Tafsir does not have a high status for us muslims. it is just a book like every other book. But we use it to gain that little bit of extra information on the sura's we are interested in.
    I would recommend the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir...that is commonly accepted among most muslims.
    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    I think that depends on how you determine flaws. Logical contradictions? Maybe not. I can't say that I'm very pleased with the treatment of women, however. Is that a logical flaw? No, but it's still not something that I would consider a positive thing. I think its issues are fewer than many other spiritual paths, for sure, but it isn't flawless.

    No, I mean ANY kind of flaw. Of course there are logical flaws (the easiest kind of flaws to prove it's wrong) in other religions..like verses who literally contradict each other.

    what you mention as flaws (the treatment of women, I do not think you understand it as good as you think you do.
    I do not know what exactly you are referring, but let me give you a few examples:
    The thing that a women inherits half of the share that her brother gets. This looks like injustice. Why would men inherit twice as much as women.
    This, because of another rule withing the Islam: Men are obligated to take of women. Everything a man owns, he has to share with his wife. His wife owns 50% of the mans posessions.
    But the women does not have to share a thing. Everything the wife owns, is 100% hers and she can not be forced to share it with her husband.

    another example:
    The testimony of the women is worth half of the testimony of the man.
    This is because of the characteristics of men and women...We can say that men and women are equal all we want, but physically, we are really not equal.
    Divine wisdom has granted women, in general, very sensitive emotions, tender feelings, and a predisposition towards care and love of other members of the family. This makes a woman capable of her natural task of childbearing, nursing, taking care of all the needs of the young child, etc. Based on these emotional characteristics of the woman, she might very well follow her emotional inclinations and swerve from harsh realities due to an emotional involvement in a case. A woman's loving and kind feelings might overcome what she has witnessed, and thus she may distort the story of her witness and testimony. At the same time the biological changes that occur in her body due to menses, pregnancy, child-birth and post-natal conditions reduce the sharpness of her memory and may make her forget the details of the issue.

    I can mention a few other examples but please give me your version of the story what you think that is not correct in the treatment of women in Islam.

    One more thing on this issue. Muslim men mistreating their wives is not a fault of the religion but more personal or cultural. women walking several feet behind her husband on the street, beating up women just because she forgot something, circumcision of women, are not things that are rules in Islam, but things that grew crooked in a culture. Has nothing to do with religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post

    This is a common thread for most religions, unfortunately. It's also the part that I struggle with.


    What exactly is it that makes you struggle with this so much? can you please explain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post

    What happens to those who don't have the option to convert to Islam? For argument's sake, what happens to the people who live in remote areas and never are exposed to this religion?


    That is also the part I struggle with at the moment. My personal opinion about those people: (not all muslims agree with me on this)
    Children, people with the syndrome of down, and all other people who have not the ability to distinguish between good and wrong, go directly to heaven.
    these people did not have a chance in the world to prove themselves so, they have no sins and they go directly to heaven.

    People who live in distinct areas, who have no access to true information about Islam, who can not do their own investigation, where the only available information about Islam is on the news on TV or on newspapers (bad manipulated information)...but who still believe in a God...chooses to do good...avoids the bad should also come in the same category of people like children and mentally incapable people.
    They never had the chance to learn about Islam...but they still believe in a God and they choose to be good people.

    Again, not all Muslims agree with me on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post

    Thank you for your continued engagement! I appreciate you taking the time to engage with all my inquiry.


    No, I have to thank you for being interested and asking the right questions. I enjoy these kind of discussions with people because this enables me to look at my own religion from a different view. As a born Muslim, you take some things as granted automatically, never really giving a thought about it, but these kind of discussions make you aware of this, and you start to think about things.
    Untill so far, these kind of discussions only made my faith grow stronger...the more I investigated, learned and discussed, the more I started to truely understand and love my religion.

    I really wanted to write this responce earlier, but I had a long weekend and really wanted to spend some time with my family...which is also very important.

    Sorry about that.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    f course. the origin is the same. God sends his prophets to those people, provides them miracles, they are being guided to the correct path...but after some generations people start to add innovations to it and a new religion is created, complete with its own God, prophet and even miracles.
    So you see all religion as having a single origin, interesting. How do you think about other people who have different religions? Do you think they're bad, or just misguided?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    If notice, this is the second issue you mention that is does not HAS to be divine...but very like it is...but you have no alternative.

    1st the creation of life that it is very unlikely that it happened on its own...
    2nd an illiterate person to reveal a complicated book like the Quren...

    Are you waiting for more indications to finally see the miracle?
    Well it's not entirely true that there is no alternative. It's true that the genesis of life on Earth is unlikely on its own, as it is true that an illiterate person could have composed one of the greatest works of poetry that humanity has ever seen. However, as another poster has said, that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. It is entirely possible that life began on its own, as it is possible that the revelations were fabricated and/or the history about Muhammad being illiterate is false. We just don't know, and we don't know one way or another. I'm not discounting the possibility of a divine source for either thing, but "I don't know, therefore god did it" is a pretty weak argument. The "I don't know" aspect is what I find particularly difficult, and why I'm here having this discussion in the first place, and why I find this dialogue so helpful and enlightening.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    I am not asking you to read anything. I do not like that at all. But the Tafsir is something different. It is a guide, a reference book which systematically gives background information on every surah and verse in what period it was revealed, what was happening in the world at that moment, what the verse is referring to and the translation of it.
    You see, the Quran can be too direct sometimes. For example it speaks about disobedient people in the past who were turned into apes as a punishment to set an example. (Al-Baqara/ The Cow 2/65-66)
    To understand this verse, you need to know who these people were and what they have done wrong. The Tafsir provides you this kind of information.
    THe Tafsir does not have a high status for us muslims. it is just a book like every other book. But we use it to gain that little bit of extra information on the sura's we are interested in.
    I would recommend the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir...that is commonly accepted among most muslims.
    Thank you for your clarification, I'll look into getting one of these books

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    what you mention as flaws (the treatment of women, I do not think you understand it as good as you think you do.
    I do not know what exactly you are referring, but let me give you a few examples:
    The thing that a women inherits half of the share that her brother gets. This looks like injustice. Why would men inherit twice as much as women.
    This, because of another rule withing the Islam: Men are obligated to take of women. Everything a man owns, he has to share with his wife. His wife owns 50% of the mans posessions.
    But the women does not have to share a thing. Everything the wife owns, is 100% hers and she can not be forced to share it with her husband.

    another example:
    The testimony of the women is worth half of the testimony of the man.
    This is because of the characteristics of men and women...We can say that men and women are equal all we want, but physically, we are really not equal.
    Divine wisdom has granted women, in general, very sensitive emotions, tender feelings, and a predisposition towards care and love of other members of the family. This makes a woman capable of her natural task of childbearing, nursing, taking care of all the needs of the young child, etc. Based on these emotional characteristics of the woman, she might very well follow her emotional inclinations and swerve from harsh realities due to an emotional involvement in a case. A woman's loving and kind feelings might overcome what she has witnessed, and thus she may distort the story of her witness and testimony. At the same time the biological changes that occur in her body due to menses, pregnancy, child-birth and post-natal conditions reduce the sharpness of her memory and may make her forget the details of the issue.

    I can mention a few other examples but please give me your version of the story what you think that is not correct in the treatment of women in Islam.

    One more thing on this issue. Muslim men mistreating their wives is not a fault of the religion but more personal or cultural. women walking several feet behind her husband on the street, beating up women just because she forgot something, circumcision of women, are not things that are rules in Islam, but things that grew crooked in a culture. Has nothing to do with religion.
    First Example:
    That is interesting, I hadn't thought of that before. However, I have a followup question. If a muslim person put in their will that their daughter and son inherited 50% each of his possessions, would you see that as a negative thing?

    Second Example:
    I had read (In the contextual notes in my Koran) that this was because in the prophet's time, women were largely illiterate, and that the second woman was designed to stop the first from being mislead or confused. I have seen nothing about women being too emotional to stand testimony, though. What sources can you direct me to that reinforces your explanation?

    The biggest issue I see with world muslims mistreating their wives is the seeming lack of backlash from the muslim community. Now, I will point out that I only have access to English-language and German-language news sources on the matter, since I don't speak Arabic. But, it seems like there is a widespread lack of condemnation against those who mistreat their wives, daughters, and female work colleagues. I understand that this is more a cultural thing than a religious thing, but I still don't see nearly as much outcry of support for women that I would expect or want from the population in general.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    What exactly is it that makes you struggle with this so much? can you please explain?
    Because I'm a scientist. Like an actual scientist, I get paid to do science. Materialism is king; things that cannot be estimated, tested, and proven are not how I've spent my life thinking. I would like to be able to see past the materialistic bent that I have adopted, but it is difficult. I like learning, I like experiencing new things, but religion has been this shadowy box of mystery for me for most of my life. I'm interested in it, but I can't seem to make myself actually believe. Which, as I've mentioned, is why I'm here. I want to talk to others, see what they think, and get ideas for different ways to look at things and process information.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    That is also the part I struggle with at the moment. My personal opinion about those people: (not all muslims agree with me on this)
    Children, people with the syndrome of down, and all other people who have not the ability to distinguish between good and wrong, go directly to heaven.
    these people did not have a chance in the world to prove themselves so, they have no sins and they go directly to heaven.

    People who live in distinct areas, who have no access to true information about Islam, who can not do their own investigation, where the only available information about Islam is on the news on TV or on newspapers (bad manipulated information)...but who still believe in a God...chooses to do good...avoids the bad should also come in the same category of people like children and mentally incapable people.
    They never had the chance to learn about Islam...but they still believe in a God and they choose to be good people.

    Again, not all Muslims agree with me on this.
    Thank you for sharing

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    I really wanted to write this responce earlier, but I had a long weekend and really wanted to spend some time with my family...which is also very important.

    Sorry about that.
    I understand! The last weekend was Mother's Day here in Canada, so I totally get it. Thanks again for entertaining my questions and having a discussion, I really appreciate it
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    @Podo :

    The last weekend was Mother's Day here in Canada
    We don't believe in formality, rather, Islam injuncts us to be obedient to our parents literally.

    Abu Hurairah (R.A.) narrates that a person asked the Prophet Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam "Who has the greatest claim on me with regard to service and kind treatment?" The Prophet replied, "Your mother, and again your mother, and once again your mother. After her, is the claim of your father, then that of your near relations, and then of the relations next to them."

    religion has been this shadowy box of mystery for me for most of my life. I'm interested in it, but I can't seem to make myself actually believe.
    “…Are you pleased with the life of this world rather than the hereafter ? But little is the enjoyment of the life of this world as compared with the Hereafter” (Quran, Al-Tawbah: 38)


    “Beautified for people is the love of that which they desire – of women and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.” [Quran, 3: 14]

    The biggest issue I see with world muslims mistreating their wives is the seeming lack of backlash from the muslim community.
    No, this is a false propaganda.

    Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
    “The most perfect of the believers in faith is the one who is best in attitude, and the best of you is the one who is best in attitude towards his womenfolk.”

    Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (1162)

    If a muslim person put in their will that their daughter and son inherited 50% each of his possessions, would you see that as a negative thing?
    Islam gives laws of inheritance. All other religions are lacking in it.

    Plz see this link:

    http://inheritance.ilmsummit.org/pro...nce/rules.aspx
    So you see all religion as having a single origin, interesting. How do you think about other people who have different religions? Do you think they're bad, or just misguided?
    Allah the All-Mighty Says (what means): "This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”[Quran 5:3]

    The Quran says (what means):"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers.”[Quran 3:85]
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    So you see all religion as having a single origin, interesting. How do you think about other people who have different religions? Do you think they're bad, or just misguided?
    yes, all religion have the same origin...which makes sense...Every prophet came to guide us to the one and the same God...everytime people wandered off the right path and created a new religion.
    about people of different religions:
    If they have no knowledge about islam and they never had the opportunity or possibility to study it...but they still somehow believe in a God, then they can be considered muslims.
    If they have knowledge about Islam but they just reject it, then they are misguided.
    If they reject Islam and they see Muslims as their enemy, they are misguided and bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post

    Well it's not entirely true that there is no alternative. It's true that the genesis of life on Earth is unlikely on its own, as it is true that an illiterate person could have composed one of the greatest works of poetry that humanity has ever seen. However, as another poster has said, that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. It is entirely possible that life began on its own, as it is possible that the revelations were fabricated and/or the history about Muhammad being illiterate is false. We just don't know, and we don't know one way or another. I'm not discounting the possibility of a divine source for either thing, but "I don't know, therefore god did it" is a pretty weak argument. The "I don't know" aspect is what I find particularly difficult, and why I'm here having this discussion in the first place, and why I find this dialogue so helpful and enlightening.
    we discussed in our former posts that the chance of forming a body on its own is astronomically small...the time of 14 billion years might not even be long enough for such an event...and that the chance of getting struck by a giant meteor and start all over in that timeframe is much higher.

    then we had the issue that a body forming on its own, how small the chance is, still no explanation how that body somehow can be alive.

    So, how can you see this as a valid alternative?

    you are making one big mistake: I never use the argument "I don't know, therefore god did it"
    because it is not the one or the other. "I don't know, therefore God did it" is a weak argument...it can be used as an answer to any question...but that does not mean it is a useful answer...just like the answer to the question "2 + 3 = ?" can be "a number".
    Of course it is a number...but which number?

    Of course God did it, but how did he do that?

    Remember, sciense and religion do not contradict each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    Thank you for your clarification, I'll look into getting one of these books
    you can also find them as a free pdf online or as an application. perhaps easier because you can use the search function which makes it easier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post

    First Example:
    That is interesting, I hadn't thought of that before. However, I have a followup question. If a muslim person put in their will that their daughter and son inherited 50% each of his possessions, would you see that as a negative thing?
    It depends. If they live in the western world, then that would be OK.
    If they live in a country with sharia laws, that would be a negative thing...because the brother has to share his property with his wife if he is married. this means that the sister got a much bigger share then her brother.

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    Second Example:
    I had read (In the contextual notes in my Koran) that this was because in the prophet's time, women were largely illiterate, and that the second woman was designed to stop the first from being mislead or confused. I have seen nothing about women being too emotional to stand testimony, though. What sources can you direct me to that reinforces your explanation?
    Islam is an universal religion. Islam never forbade women to have an education or to work...keeping women illiterate was always a cultural issue. wouldn't it be injustice to say that women need each other in testimonies because they are illiterate? so, this answer makes no sense.

    If you are looking for verses in the quran saying that women are emotional...you will not find anything...The quran is not a science book.
    It just states that women need each other for testimony, period....and if you want to know the wisdom behind it, then you have to investigate.
    sometimes this question is already asked to our prophet and he gave an answer...if so, you can find it in the hadeeth...if not, then the reason is unknown and needs to be investigated.

    And indeed, we all know that women are different then men. they are more emotional...they are more sensitive to hormone changes...they have more massive hormone changes then men.
    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    The biggest issue I see with world muslims mistreating their wives is the seeming lack of backlash from the muslim community. Now, I will point out that I only have access to English-language and German-language news sources on the matter, since I don't speak Arabic. But, it seems like there is a widespread lack of condemnation against those who mistreat their wives, daughters, and female work colleagues. I understand that this is more a cultural thing than a religious thing, but I still don't see nearly as much outcry of support for women that I would expect or want from the population in general.
    that might be true unfortunately...but still it is not a religious issue. it is cultural. Islam commands to treat your wife in your best way...
    again, I agree with you that you see that kind of things a lot in the muslim world...but it is wrong to attribute that to Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post

    Because I'm a scientist. Like an actual scientist, I get paid to do science. Materialism is king; things that cannot be estimated, tested, and proven are not how I've spent my life thinking. I would like to be able to see past the materialistic bent that I have adopted, but it is difficult. I like learning, I like experiencing new things, but religion has been this shadowy box of mystery for me for most of my life. I'm interested in it, but I can't seem to make myself actually believe. Which, as I've mentioned, is why I'm here. I want to talk to others, see what they think, and get ideas for different ways to look at things and process information.
    I am a scientist too. maybe not that much like you, because I only have a Bachelor of Science degree...(right now I am work as the Lead Engineer Radiography) So, I am also a technical person. I also always searched for logical explanations ans was not satisfied with answers like "because God has ordered that"...but that shadowy box you are describing stays unreachable for science...so for science it is a black box...and scientist know how to handle black boxes...we cannot look into it...but we can define the input, observe the output and try to describe it's characteristics.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    I had read (In the contextual notes in my Koran) that this was because in the prophet's time, women were largely illiterate, and that the second woman was designed to stop the first from being mislead or confused. I have seen nothing about women being too emotional to stand testimony, though. What sources can you direct me to that reinforces your explanation?

    As a scientist, you are probably aware that the brains of men and women are mapped and networked in different ways - the fact that men and women often find it difficult to understand each other's reasonings and point of view, and why sacrifice of personal opinions is sometimes the norm simply for the sake of cohesion. This is evidenced by the fact that iq tests have had to be revised to include what women are better at in order to ensure women don't keep appearing to fall short.

    Women are fitted with a natural emotional bias that often puts what they consider as their "own" above all other things - even if it means being selfish - and this is an important trait in child rearing. However - when it comes to social and international dealings and interactions this trait can cause a lot of resentment since society works a little more on the basis of mutual advancement in that many millions of families are involved.

    The fact that a man loses face and honour when lying as it indicates weakness and or criminality - whereas a woman can usually lie and then just weep and curse when caught out, and then even be seen as a victim due to emotional leniency is also something to consider.

    None of this necessarily means that women are evil (although they are usually more easily convinced by breakable logic than men are, and are less likely to think too far into the future when the present is a mess and needs to be at least presentable - and we are informed that more of them will be seduced by dajjal's deceptions and material splendour than will men), but it does show that a trusted male guardian and ultimate decision maker (who evaluates and judges by truth and justice) keeps humanity advancing. A nation divided cannot stand for long - since he/she who doesn't gather with truth and justice - scatters abroad.
    The deceptions and guardianship role that criminal governments and institutions have been projecting onto women recently are an indicator that the secular machine knows the weak spot and is targeting that as it's method of attempting to break down society and gaining total control over it. This is done by using easily collapsible short term false logic and making deception and treachery appear like david's stone against men

    Men are usually more blunt in showing hate or dislike and willing to fight and die in a non-ideal or unacceptable situation than women who are (needfully) more short term survival geared and very easily adapt to the new boss even when violated or abused - both evaluate on a different level - an intimate wink or a sharp stare during testimony usually works easier on women who see the need to appease than on men since a woman does not need to wield tools like a man in order to get to the next stage but needs to wield men like tools - this is a recipe for biased decision-making.

    Being the physically weaker and more dependent half also plays a part in this, therefore blame is to naturally be measured with a little leniency.
    I don't know if some people are hating on me for my piece of mind but thats what i sincerely believe as being true regardless of what the usurious banker controlled mass media drills into the brains of the masses - i know why they do it, obviously, the physical tasks usually required of men are being borne by machines - hence economical equations of criminals tend to lean towards the easier to control and subdue part - even though humanity dies in the process.
    Last edited by Abz2000; 1 Week Ago at 12:26 PM.
    Why is the Koran True?

    Long ago has hope perished, as have our men of honor
    M.A



    The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress

    Frederick Douglas

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    that might be true unfortunately...but still it is not a religious issue. it is cultural. Islam commands to treat your wife in your best way...
    again, I agree with you that you see that kind of things a lot in the muslim world...but it is wrong to attribute that to Islam.
    This is actually very refreshing to hear, to be honest. I agree fully that it is more of a cultural thing, but far too often muslims (the ones that I've encountered, anyway) deny that mistreatment happens at all. The simple fact that you acknowledge it and condemn it is very reassuring.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    I am a scientist too. maybe not that much like you, because I only have a Bachelor of Science degree...(right now I am work as the Lead Engineer Radiography) So, I am also a technical person. I also always searched for logical explanations ans was not satisfied with answers like "because God has ordered that"...but that shadowy box you are describing stays unreachable for science...so for science it is a black box...and scientist know how to handle black boxes...we cannot look into it...but we can define the input, observe the output and try to describe it's characteristics.
    This is the single most compelling thought I have read on the whole of these boards so far. So you see the black box of religion as something that you can isolate the input to, and therefore observe the output? Input in this case being prayers and submission, and the output being improvement of life? Do I understand you correctly?

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    This is the single most compelling thought I have read on the whole of these boards so far. So you see the black box of religion as something that you can isolate the input to, and therefore observe the output? Input in this case being prayers and submission, and the output being improvement of life? Do I understand you correctly?
    Not completely isolate of course but yes...something like that.

    Input can be:
    prayers, submission to God, Going with the idea that you are never alone, that everything has a purpose and happens for a reason, knowing everything you experience is a part of you undergoing a test, etc.

    Output can be:
    improvement of life like: (of course your ultimate goal is not the improvement of life, but the improvement of life in thehereafter)
    suddenly having an important purpose in your life...you are not a goalless being anymore.
    never feeling alone
    always having a witness
    much more calm in life...because if injustice has been done to you, and you can not change that...you know in thehereafter you will get justice after all.
    you do not get upset as quickly because of this...you know people will eventually will get what they deserve.
    you are much more aware with your actions...you respect others much more and you put effort in not to harm anyone.
    increased patience and being friendly and helpfull.
    You trust God that every rule in the Quran is logical...so you start investigating it and every confirmation strengthens your faith.
    Having your knowledge improved not only by science, but also with wisdom from the Quran.
    etc.
    etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I would advise you...just try it...you will have nothing to lose...you do not have to change your lifestyle...you do not have to give up anything...
    but you can gain so much more in life. if it does not work, you can just forget about it.

    you won't regret it. trust me. Let God enter your heart.

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    This is actually very refreshing to hear, to be honest. I agree fully that it is more of a cultural thing, but far too often muslims (the ones that I've encountered, anyway) deny that mistreatment happens at all. The simple fact that you acknowledge it and condemn it is very reassuring.
    Sorry, I totally forgot about this part of your post. The mistreatment of women is common among muslims...because too many muslims do not truely understand their religion. Quran says you can beat up your wife...so they beat up their wife for every fart she makes...they do not understand that this is absolutely the last measure you can take as a husband if all other methods have failed. you see women walking several feet behind their husbands for some crooked reason...I never understand why, but it might be some misinterpretement of a rule in the Quran.

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    Sorry, I totally forgot about this part of your post. The mistreatment of women is common among muslims ...because too many muslims do not truely understand their religion. Quran says you can beat up your wife ...so they beat up their wife for every fart she makes...they do not understand that this is absolutely the last measure you can take as a husband if all other methods have failed. you see women walking several feet behind their husbands for some crooked reason...I never understand why, but it might be some misinterpretement of a rule in the Quran.
    Will you prove the 'bold parts' of your post...

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