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  1. #1
    Array Podo's Avatar
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    Why is the Koran True? (OP)


    Hello everyone. I'm new here, and I'm hoping to stick around and have good discussions.

    My purpose for this thread is to ask you all, in your own words, why you consider the narrative in the Koran to be the accurate and unaltered word of god.

    I realize this may seem like a silly question, so I'll provide context for my curiosity. I'm an apatheist, someone who doesn't think that the existence or nonexistence of deities is an important question. Whether one exists or not, to me, is neither here nor there; I care about how a person acts and what they do for the people around them, and less about why they do the things they do. I have read a lot of religious texts in my life, however, because I find religion both fascinating and nonetheless a decent source of philosophy.

    This philosophical view is what brought me to this forum. I have read the Koran twice now, once in English and once in German, unfortunately I do not speak Arabic or I'd have read it in that, too. For the most part, I like the philosophical message of the Koran, very much. I think it's undeniably more comprehensive/tolerant than any other Abrahamic text, and is also much clearer and less allegorical than most other religious texts. I don't think it's perfect, of course, but the philosophical and moral framework that one can construct from its pages are, at worst, decent, and at best they're conducive to a rather functional society. I like it enough, in fact, that I've found myself idly considering the idea of joining a muslim community.

    My hang-up, however, is the belief aspect. I can (and do) respect the Koran as a philosophical text, a historical text, and even as a moral treatise. My issue is the last leap to actual belief in a deity. I understand that the pillars of Islam require the belief that there is no god but god, and that Muhammad was his last messenger, but the idea of believing in something that can't be established as observably true is difficult for me, especially since I have never put much thought or care into the existence of deities one way or another.

    So, to re-iterate my question, how do you all get past this point? What made you take the leap of faith, as it were? How do you reconcile the unprovable nature of the divine with the modern, materialist world?

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
    3 | Likes Al Khorasani, czgibson, greenhill liked this post

  2. #41
    umie's Avatar
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

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    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Will you prove the 'bold parts' of your post...
    The famous verse about beating your wife is 4:34.
    The mistreatment of women is observable on the streets.
    1 | Likes czgibson liked this post

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Greetings.

    How civil and interesting this post has been. Fairly diverse range and thought process.

    The Creator, God exists in the mind as it cannot be proven scientifically. So it needs a thought process.

    The pill (in my humblest opinion) that is hardest to swallow is to humble oneself and surrender to His Will. On top of that, one also needs to be patient. What? We're insignificant slaves? Essentially, it's our pride that gets in the way.

    So, the first message of the Quran to come down, a message proclaimed to be for all of mankind is 'iqra!' and it was said 3 times before the verse was completed with the sentences. Recite or Read, the Quran was revealed with the Word from the Creator telling mankind to 'read!'.

    At the same time it can be said to it was to introduce Himself to our prophet for him to recite in His name.

    The Quran also goes on asking us many occasions to use our reason, to ponder, consider and other suggestions for us think about the message.

    But, Satan has a very prominent role to play to mislead people from the true path. Hence, the same message from the Single source, repeatedly sent via prophets and messengers eventually became corrupted and over generations becoming splinter or modified religions as it was his (Satan's) solemn oath to deviate people from finding the truth. He has done an excellent job. Misleading vast majority and as a result, there are Muslims who do not necessarily reflect Islam. Unfortunately, that what is highlighted by the media has probably had an effect as I often hear people studying all other Books and if they ever get to the Quran, it would literally be because they have run out of other Books. So well have the controlling society 'isolated' the Quran from being a choice.


    There's much I want to say but time does not permit.

    But before I go, id like to suggest you to take a look at Jeffrey Lang 'the purpose of life' on YouTube.


    Why is the Koran True?

    As long as my heart does beat, I shall live, not lie
    For when my heart does stop its beat, with truth, I die.

  5. #43
    azc's Avatar
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    The famous verse about beating your wife is 4:34.
    The mistreatment of women is observable on the streets.
    @Podo

    Let us take a look at Surah An-Nisa, Ayah 34:

    Men are “qawwamuna” over women, because God has given some more than others, and because they support them from their means, and the righteous women are the truly devout ones [ God fearing ] , who guard in their husbands absence the intimacy which God has ordained to be guarded.
    And as for those women whose “nushuz” you have reason to fear, remind them [ of God and His teachings ] ;

    then leave them alone in bed;

    then [ as a last resort ] “hit” them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great ! [ Surah 4:34 ]

    The hadith in Muslim’s Sahih states that the Prophet s.a.w. in his Farewell Pilgrimage said:

    Lo ! My last recommendation to you is that you should treat women well. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that – except if they commit a manifest indecency [fahisha mubina = ranging from immorality to adultery]. If they do, then refuse to share their beds and hit them without indecent violence [fadribuhunna darban ghayra mubarrih]. Then, if they desist, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over you is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision. you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over you is that you treat them excellently in their garbhh
    Our Prophet s.a.w uses the expression “fahisa mubina” as the equivalent of “nushuz” . The word “nushuz” in this verse [ Surah 4:34 ] therefor refers to “ fahisa mubina”, which refers to manifest obscenity. The word “nushuz” used in reference to the wife therefor doesn’t mean disobedience or a case of simple disagreement. It means lewd acts, immoral behaviour that could lead to adultery.

    Prophet himself defined the permissible form of hitting in the Farewell

    My last recommendation to you is that you should treat women well. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that – “except if they commit a manifest indecency” [ fahisha mubina ]. If they do, then refuse to share their beds and hit them “without indecent violence”[ fadribuhunna darban ghayra mubarrih ].

    Qatada said as narrated by al-Tabari in his tafsir: “Ghayr mubarrih” means ghayr sha’in = not disgraceful/ outrageous/ obscene/ indecent [hitting].” `

    Ata’ said: “I asked Ibn `Abbas ra: ‘What is the hitting that is ghayr al-mubarrih?’ He replied: ‘[With] the siwak [toothbrush] and the like”.
    http://www.nour-dv.org.uk/tafseer-su...-wife-beating/
    Why is the Koran True?

    Allah (swt) knows best

  6. #44
    Aaqib's Avatar
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    Sorry, I totally forgot about this part of your post. The mistreatment of women is common among muslims...because too many muslims do not truely understand their religion. Quran says you can beat up your wife...so they beat up their wife for every fart she makes...they do not understand that this is absolutely the last measure you can take as a husband if all other methods have failed. you see women walking several feet behind their husbands for some crooked reason...I never understand why, but it might be some misinterpretement of a rule in the Quran.
    Sister, don't make ridiculous claims such as the Quran saying that a husband can beat up their wife. How could a sound, logical person make a claim like this??
    Why is the Koran True?

    He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him [59:23]




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  8. #45
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaqib View Post
    Sister, don't make ridiculous claims such as the Quran saying that a husband can beat up their wife. How could a sound, logical person make a claim like this??
    İ think you did not follow this thread at all...because if you did, you would not be reacting like that.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Podo
    You see podo...verse 3:34 is also a perfect example of a verse which can be easily interpreted without further investigation. This is a verse where people have been asking quetions about it to our prophet during his life...so you can find hadeeth about this issue.
    İn the Quran it looks like İslam gives men permission to beat up their wives...but if you look into the tafsir or hadeeth...you will find out what is really meant with this verse.
    1 | Likes Aaqib liked this post

  9. #46
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    From the small parts I've been able to learn enough to understand, the poetry is very advanced. Does this mean it HAS to be divine? No. But, it doesn't rule divinity out, I suppose.
    The people of Quraish endorsed a proposal and requested Abu Talib to talk to the Prophet very softly and he begged him to abandon his affair. To this suggestion the Prophet firmly replied:

    "0 my uncle, if they placed the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left hand to cause me to renounce my task, verily I would not desist therefrom until Allah made manifest His cause or I perished in the attempt."​

    Then they chose Utbah, the old and wise aristocrat of the Quraysh, to undertake that task. ‘He came closer to Muhammad [pbuh] and addressed him in the following words:

    We have seen no other man of Arabia, who has brought so great a calamity to a nation, as you have done. You have outraged our gods and religion and taxed our forefathers and wise men with impiety and error and created strife amongst us. You have left no stone unturned to estrange the relations with us. If you are doing all this with a view to getting wealth, we will join together to give you greater riches than any Quraishite has possessed. If ambition moves you, we will make you our chief. If you desire kingship we will readily offer you that. If you are under the power of an evil spirit which seems to haunt and dominate you so that you cannot shake off its yoke, then we shall call in skilful physicians to cure you.

    "Have you said all?" asked Muhammad [pbuh]; and then hearing that all had been said, he spoke forth, and started to recite the first 5 ayat of this surah:




    The Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] went on reciting the surah while ‘Utbah sitting and listening attentively with his hand behind his back to support him. When the Messenger reached the verse that required prostration, he immediately prostrated himself. After that, he turned to ‘Utbah saying:
    "Well Abu Al-Waleed! You have heard my reply, you are now free to do whatever you please." ‘Utbah then retired to his company to apprise them of the Prophet’s attitude. When his compatriots saw him, they swore that he had returned to them with a countenance unlike the one he had before meeting the Prophet [pbuh] . He immediately communicated to them the details of the talk he gave and the reply he received, and appended saying:
    "I have never heard words similar to those ones he recited. They definitely relate neither to poetry nor to witchcraft nor do they derive from soothsaying. O people of Quraish! I request you to heed my advice and grant the man full freedom to pursue his goals, in which case you could safely detach yourselves from him. I swear that his words bear a supreme Message. Should the other Arabs rid you of him, they will then spare you the trouble, on the other hand if he accedes to power over the Arabs, then you will bask in his kingship and share him his might." These words of course fell on deaf ears, and did not appeal to the infidels, who jeered at ‘Utbah and claimed that the Prophet [pbuh] had bewitched him. (Arraheeq Almakhtoom)

    The point is: Quran isn't just another piece of poetry; even top elite of Meccan polytheists acknowledged that.


  10. #47
    ChosenTCO's Avatar
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Allow me to drop my two cents in here. I will try to be brief ... "try"

    Firstly: Im sorry to burst your bubble, but if your looking for definitive, indisputable, and quantifiable proof of God, then im sorry but you most probably wont find anything like that here (at least non that i know of).

    Thing is ... you have to understand that this dunya's (world) sole purpose is to test the majority of us in our faith which is based on lack of absolute knowledge. What i mean by this is that there is no way to know for certain whether or not God exists except after death (that is somewhat hinted at even in the Quran where god refers to death as Yakeen which translates to certainty). Because, if you think about it, if there was definitive proof, say a miracle where no one can deny that this can only be from God, then what element of faith is there to test when it is superseded with absolute knowledge?

    Note: there are few people who where tested in other things such as patience or arrogance.

    1. Prophet was tested for his patience since he had absolute certainty of God (meaning he actually was able to establish God's presence not only through his belief).
    2. Iblis (the father/leader of all current devils) was tested in his pride .


    Secondly: I wanted to talk about why i personally believe islam to be the one true religion, but before i do, id like to ask you a question first.


    What would it take for you to believe in a supernatural deity or a God? What would it take for you to actually jump and take that leap of faith and admit that the idea of a God being the creator of the universe is more reassuring to you than it being out of coincidence? What would it take for you to make that leap of faith?
    1 | Likes umie liked this post

  11. #48
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO View Post
    Allow me to drop my two cents in here. I will try to be brief ... "try"

    Firstly: Im sorry to burst your bubble, but if your looking for definitive, indisputable, and quantifiable proof of God, then im sorry but you most probably wont find anything like that here (at least non that i know of).

    Thing is ... you have to understand that this dunya's (world) sole purpose is to test the majority of us in our faith which is based on lack of absolute knowledge. What i mean by this is that there is no way to know for certain whether or not God exists except after death (that is somewhat hinted at even in the Quran where god refers to death as Yakeen which translates to certainty). Because, if you think about it, if there was definitive proof, say a miracle where no one can deny that this can only be from God, then what element of faith is there to test when it is superseded with absolute knowledge?

    Note: there are few people who where tested in other things such as patience or arrogance.

    1. Prophet was tested for his patience since he had absolute certainty of God (meaning he actually was able to establish God's presence not only through his belief).
    2. Iblis (the father/leader of all current devils) was tested in his pride .


    Secondly: I wanted to talk about why i personally believe islam to be the one true religion, but before i do, id like to ask you a question first.

    What would it take for you to believe in a supernatural deity or a God? What would it take for you to actually jump and take that leap of faith and admit that the idea of a God being the creator of the universe is more reassuring to you than it being out of coincidence? What would it take for you to make that leap of faith?
    in podo's defence:
    There is no bubble to burst. Podo legitimally askes how we can be sure that God exists and why out of all other religions would Islam be the true one...other religions also claim they are the true religion.
    This is a normal reaction from someone who is foreign to faith and who used to look for logical answers.
    at least he tries to learn our viewpoint by asking.

    For him the logical world is solid ground, and he does not know yet that Islam is also solid...so he is not ready for his leap yet.
    Our job is to provide him our viewpoint in a way he can understand so that the doubts in his way to God can be wiped away.
    He needs to know that Islam is also solid, and he needs to know that he can gain a lot by believing in God.

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