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Why is the Koran True?

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    Why is the Koran True?

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    Hello everyone. I'm new here, and I'm hoping to stick around and have good discussions.

    My purpose for this thread is to ask you all, in your own words, why you consider the narrative in the Koran to be the accurate and unaltered word of god.

    I realize this may seem like a silly question, so I'll provide context for my curiosity. I'm an apatheist, someone who doesn't think that the existence or nonexistence of deities is an important question. Whether one exists or not, to me, is neither here nor there; I care about how a person acts and what they do for the people around them, and less about why they do the things they do. I have read a lot of religious texts in my life, however, because I find religion both fascinating and nonetheless a decent source of philosophy.

    This philosophical view is what brought me to this forum. I have read the Koran twice now, once in English and once in German, unfortunately I do not speak Arabic or I'd have read it in that, too. For the most part, I like the philosophical message of the Koran, very much. I think it's undeniably more comprehensive/tolerant than any other Abrahamic text, and is also much clearer and less allegorical than most other religious texts. I don't think it's perfect, of course, but the philosophical and moral framework that one can construct from its pages are, at worst, decent, and at best they're conducive to a rather functional society. I like it enough, in fact, that I've found myself idly considering the idea of joining a muslim community.

    My hang-up, however, is the belief aspect. I can (and do) respect the Koran as a philosophical text, a historical text, and even as a moral treatise. My issue is the last leap to actual belief in a deity. I understand that the pillars of Islam require the belief that there is no god but god, and that Muhammad was his last messenger, but the idea of believing in something that can't be established as observably true is difficult for me, especially since I have never put much thought or care into the existence of deities one way or another.

    So, to re-iterate my question, how do you all get past this point? What made you take the leap of faith, as it were? How do you reconcile the unprovable nature of the divine with the modern, materialist world?

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Hah, guter Idee, aber ich weiss nicht wie! Es ist warum ich fragen dich

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, Ich sehe dein Dokument! Danke schon
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    You can have a look here too

    https://issuu.com/cpsglobal/docs/godarises

    You are welcome !

    Issuu
    Issuu is a digital publishing platform that makes it simple to publish magazines, catalogs, newspapers, books, and more online. Easily share your publications and get them in front of Issuu’s millions of monthly readers. Title: God Arises, Author: CPS Global, Name: God Arises, Length: 473 pages, Page: 1, Published: 2011-03-10...
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    Hello everyone. I'm new here, and I'm hoping to stick around and have good discussions.

    My purpose for this thread is to ask you all, in your own words, why you consider the narrative in the Koran to be the accurate and unaltered word of god.

    I realize this may seem like a silly question, so I'll provide context for my curiosity. I'm an apatheist, someone who doesn't think that the existence or nonexistence of deities is an important question. Whether one exists or not, to me, is neither here nor there; I care about how a person acts and what they do for the people around them, and less about why they do the things they do. I have read a lot of religious texts in my life, however, because I find religion both fascinating and nonetheless a decent source of philosophy.

    This philosophical view is what brought me to this forum. I have read the Koran twice now, once in English and once in German, unfortunately I do not speak Arabic or I'd have read it in that, too. For the most part, I like the philosophical message of the Koran, very much. I think it's undeniably more comprehensive/tolerant than any other Abrahamic text, and is also much clearer and less allegorical than most other religious texts. I don't think it's perfect, of course, but the philosophical and moral framework that one can construct from its pages are, at worst, decent, and at best they're conducive to a rather functional society. I like it enough, in fact, that I've found myself idly considering the idea of joining a muslim community.

    My hang-up, however, is the belief aspect. I can (and do) respect the Koran as a philosophical text, a historical text, and even as a moral treatise. My issue is the last leap to actual belief in a deity. I understand that the pillars of Islam require the belief that there is no god but god, and that Muhammad was his last messenger, but the idea of believing in something that can't be established as observably true is difficult for me, especially since I have never put much thought or care into the existence of deities one way or another.

    So, to re-iterate my question, how do you all get past this point? What made you take the leap of faith, as it were? How do you reconcile the unprovable nature of the divine with the modern, materialist world?

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
    Oh boy, this is going to be a long conversation. I'll try to summarise, but if you express further interest I and other members will expand upon these initial remarks:

    1. The concept of God

    The universe had a start, this is scientifically accepted. God is simply what caused the universe to be, it's important to stress this since many like to equate belief in God with believing in unicorns or other mythical creatures of that sort. The concept of God is perfectly logical, and it has been rigorously proven that the universe forming by chance is so mindbogglingly low you might as well make it zero.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjGPHF5A6Po
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T_P14JjMcM

    2. Claims it is God's word

    Pretty basic start. The Quran claims it is God's word, therefore, we should at the very least consider its claims. Funnily enough, other religious texts from faiths such as Hinduism or Christianity don't really directly make this claim (the Bible calls itself the inspired word of God, and the Rigveda can be interpreted in an atheistic manner).

    3. No contradictions/errors

    The Quran further solidifies its claims by lacking any contradictions/errors. Many may claim it has contradictions/errors, but these have been debunked by many before me, and will be debunked by many after me. A simple google search will find you many intelligent Islamic apologists who prove very well how the Quran has no contradictions/errors, and even provide their own evidences for the truth of Islam. Here are just a few:

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqY...zM4hA3w/videos
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx4...YjIemzw/videos
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnZ...Hk1nEOA/videos
    https://www.youtube.com/user/TheDawowProject/channels
    https://www.youtube.com/user/DawahFilms/videos
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHD...DIc8efQ/videos
    https://www.letmeturnthetables.com/
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/
    https://alfinlandi.wordpress.com/author/alfinlandi/

    What's more, the Quran actually challenges its readers to try and find contradictions within it, a falsification test if you will. Speaking of which:

    4. Produce something like it challenge

    Other than the challenge to try to find contradictions, the Quran also has other falsification tests. The most famous one is the challenge to try and produce a single chapter (i.e just 3 verses) like it. In order to qualify as like the Quran, this chapter must be coherent and in the same literary style in the Quran. This has never been done throughout history (as per the consensus of literary scholars), and is regarded as being impossible in its entirety as the Quran's literary style is quite literally unique, not a single piece in history has been written in the same literary style. It's also the only literary piece in history to achieve this (have a unique literary style that nobody can replicate). Here are some links explaining the subject in more detail, and debunking those who claim the challenge has been beaten:

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/
    https://suralikeitrefuted.wordpress.com/

    5. Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (Peace Be Upon Him)

    If we are to suppose that the Quran was invented by Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (Peace Be Upon Him), then why would he do so? For power/wealth? He already belonged to the most powerful tribe in in Mecca (the Quraysh). Not only that, but when he was preaching, wealth was offered to him in spades if he just stopped preaching, yet he still preached despite experiencing horrible persecution. He also spent most of his life (even when he managed to take power) living a very humble lifestyle. For women? He was married to the wealthiest woman in Mecca, for most of his life lived in a monogamous relationship, and again, was offered such lucrative rewards if he just stopped preaching. Not to mention if we wanted material gains, why not preach a faith more palatable to the Meccans? The only other option is that he's crazy, which he isn't. He has no symptoms of any mental illness, in fact, he has quite the opposite. Here are some links explaining this in more detail:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Yv-uXwihI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOJgeNJeFgI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9cF31bUf70

    Also, nobody else could have made Islam, since Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (Peace Be Upon Him) was certainly not a made up historical figure (there is far too much proof of his existence), if he borrowed from previous sources literally everyone would call him out for it (we'd also be able to discover it pretty quickly), and if he was simply preaching on someone else's behalf, why is it he is central to Islam's message? What kind of person would accept someone else taking their idea and using it for their own gains, whilst sidelining them into the background? It also could not have been a group effort since again, only Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (Peace Be Upon Him) holds such a high status in Islam, none of his contemporaries hold such a high position.

    6. Other claims

    There are numerous other pieces of proof people have, and of course it is impossible to go over all of them. The previous links in point number 3 will be a great guide in order to find these other pieces of proof, but I will also recommend Abdur Raheem Green's series on why Islam is the truth, which of course I will provide a link for:

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...4B62A190046A64

    Feel free to also ask me and other members on this forum anything.
    Last edited by Alamgir; 05-03-2018 at 10:18 PM.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    That's a lot of information, thanks very much for taking the time to collect it all. I've actually seen some of it before, part of why I posted in this board is because there's also a lot of garbage material floating about the interwebs and sifting through the trash to find the gold is a herculean task. I'm going to start with the Abdur Raheem Green series and then more or less go down the list in order. I appreciate the effort
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    That's a lot of information, thanks very much for taking the time to collect it all. I've actually seen some of it before, part of why I posted in this board is because there's also a lot of garbage material floating about the interwebs and sifting through the trash to find the gold is a herculean task. I'm going to start with the Abdur Raheem Green series and then more or less go down the list in order. I appreciate the effort
    I know it's long, sorry.

    Green's series is probably the best place to start, you can make your way from there.

    Make sure you do not keep any questions kept up inside you, always ask them so we can answer them.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    I shall do, thanks very much
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    So, to re-iterate my question, how do you all get past this point? What made you take the leap of faith, as it were? How do you reconcile the unprovable nature of the divine with the modern, materialist world?
    God explains why we are here and why the universe exists in the first place, there are many things Humans do like ethics, aesthetics, finding meaning, politics and History that cannot be just reduced to materialism. I would even argue that human freewill and consciousness can not be reduced to a materialistic view. - all other answers IMO are weak or non answers. There are other religions like Hinduism and Buddhisms but they lack urgency unlike the Monotheistic religions, specifically Islam and Christianity but I disagree with Jesus pbuh being divine or the trinity.

    Islam seems to be the best explanation and is holistic view of the universe and how we know God through revelation, prophets and the universe itself. It also links all of humanity to a monotheistic God and gives a solid Purpose and meaning to life, which I believe any materialistic philosophy from The Greeks to the logical positivist does not provide.

    You might want to check out Al Ghazzali, Hamza Yusuf and Abdal hakim murad - the reading of the Quran and some Muslim scholars past and present played a critical role on my journey in Islam.

    edit - I like to add that God is not an Object that can be empirically verifiable - God is a metaphysical like free will, causality, being. God grounds all of reality including Time and space which is needed in the first place for empiricism.

    peace
    Last edited by Zafran; 05-03-2018 at 11:55 PM.
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    Why is the Koran True?

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    There are other religions like Hinduism and Buddhisms but they lack urgency unlike the Monotheistic religions, specifically Islam and Christianity but I disagree with Jesus pbuh being divine or the trinity.
    I'm interested in the above quoted section. What makes you say that? I've read a lot of Buddhist and Hindu texts, and I'm not sure I follow you. Are you referring to the cycle of Samsara and the fulfillment of dharma? Hinduism, moreso than Buddhism, in my opinion, offers a strikingly unified theory for the oneness and purpose for the universe, including a form of soft monotheism with all the Hindu deities being aspects of Krishna, the single unifying aspect. Furthermore, the concept of dharma itself provides an inherent purpose for each living being (assuming you're an adherent, anyway).

    To be clear, I'm not trying to argue as much as I'm interested in why you think that Islam's message is more complete than that of the bulk of Hindu scripture, or the Buddhist texts.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post

    My hang-up, however, is the belief aspect. I can (and do) respect the Koran as a philosophical text, a historical text, and even as a moral treatise. My issue is the last leap to actual belief in a deity. I understand that the pillars of Islam require the belief that there is no god but god, and that Muhammad was his last messenger, but the idea of believing in something that can't be established as observably true is difficult for me, especially since I have never put much thought or care into the existence of deities one way or another.

    So, to re-iterate my question, how do you all get past this point? What made you take the leap of faith, as it were? How do you reconcile the unprovable nature of the divine with the modern, materialist world?

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
    The question is, how can YOU get past this point? How can you possibly believe that everything you see around you with such perfection can exist on its own without an intelligent designer behind it?
    I know it sounds logical to say that if there is a chance that something will happen, then no matter how small that chance is, that will happen if you wait long enough.
    but please consider this example:
    certain atoms must mix with each in certain way under certain conditions to form a DNA molecule. These molecules should find each other to form a Gen, Gens must form a chromosome. only then cells can be formed...still the environment must be just right. after then a body can be formed...then still you would have a body with no life in it. so the first thing is, is the 14 billion years of time enough to form a body on its own by just coincidence? I do not think so.
    the second thing is, even if the 14 billion years was long enough, this would still not explain how those cells and bodies came to life.
    There has to be something intelligent behind this all. Believing that everything evolved on its own just does not make sense.
    I am not against evolution, do not get me wrong, But evolution without God is just not possible.

    So to me, there is no other logical answer than to believe in God.

    About why we believe that the Quran is accurate and unaltered, you should learn more about the history of Islam, how the procedure was how the quran was revealed and under which conditions.
    We could give you information about this if you are interested.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Update:
    I am also a person who is driven by logic. I love science and for me, everything must be good explainable. But believing in God does not mean rejecting science and logic.
    I still support the Big bang theory. I still support evolution. they are perfectly in sync with my religion. behind the scenes of this Big Bang and evolution God is still present. Evolution, if it is really true, is a tool God uses to create different lifeforms.
    It would make no sense to believe in a religion that is the opposite to science. God would not create a world and teach something opposite to it in his Holy Books.
    So first rule: believing in a God does not mean you should stop using your own mind.
    Second part of your question why is it important to believe in God:
    many people ask themselves the question, what is the purpose of life?
    a little background information about this.
    God does not need any helpers or whatsoever. He created out of compassion and loving-kindness. He is perfectly capable of creating perfect and powerfull creatures like angels, and he did.
    But he also chose to create humans who can be lazy and stubborn and disobediant. we are not so fast, strong or powerfull as the angels.
    But still we could have a higher rank than the angels. This, because we have one feature that the angels do not have: a free will.
    We can choose to obey God on our own or not to. Angels do not have that option. they cannot say they do not want to obey, they are not programmed to do so
    so, despite our weaknesses and other shortcomings, we choose to believe and obey God...out of free will...and that exactly gives us a higher rank than the angels.

    So the purpose of life is actualy: finding out on your own that there is a God and to believe and obey him.
    That is our test on this world, that is our task. I say "test", but it is not really a test. God already knows the outcome of it. he does not need to test us. This "test" is meant for ourselves...to make us witnesses of our very own choices and decisions.
    an example: if we never lived in this world, and God would just create us and threw us directly in Hell, we would complain something like "why God? what did we do to deserve such punishment?" and Gods reply would be something like "because I know you better than you know yourself". But that answer would never satisfy us. By coming to this world first, we will be witnesses of our own acts, choices and decisions. and then we will understand why we are granted to Heaven or thrown in Hell.

    That is why believing in God is important.

    Sorry for the long post, but the answer is just not so easy.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    I'm interested in the above quoted section. What makes you say that? I've read a lot of Buddhist and Hindu texts, and I'm not sure I follow you. Are you referring to the cycle of Samsara and the fulfillment of dharma? Hinduism, moreso than Buddhism, in my opinion, offers a strikingly unified theory for the oneness and purpose for the universe, including a form of soft monotheism with all the Hindu deities being aspects of Krishna, the single unifying aspect. Furthermore, the concept of dharma itself provides an inherent purpose for each living being (assuming you're an adherent, anyway).

    To be clear, I'm not trying to argue as much as I'm interested in why you think that Islam's message is more complete than that of the bulk of Hindu scripture, or the Buddhist texts.
    Very simple If I'm coming back here again and have endless chances I have no reason to believe in it. It lacks Urgency. Especially in the life I'm living.
    Last edited by Zafran; 05-05-2018 at 12:28 AM.
    Why is the Koran True?

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    Very simple If I'm coming back here again and have endless chances I have no reason to believe in it. It lacks Urgency. Especially in the life I'm living.
    Then I guess my next question is, why is it important to you that your ethos have a sense of urgency? If a system has one try or many, why does that matter? In the Buddhist/Hindu systems, the progression of the soul is not tied to a single lifetime, unlike most religions, so they are only "less urgent" when looked at from an outside perspective. I would imagine other paths would look very rushed to a Buddhist or a Hindu.

    format_quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    Update:
    I am also a person who is driven by logic. I love science and for me, everything must be good explainable. But believing in God does not mean rejecting science and logic.
    I still support the Big bang theory. I still support evolution. they are perfectly in sync with my religion. behind the scenes of this Big Bang and evolution God is still present. Evolution, if it is really true, is a tool God uses to create different lifeforms.
    It would make no sense to believe in a religion that is the opposite to science. God would not create a world and teach something opposite to it in his Holy Books.
    So first rule: believing in a God does not mean you should stop using your own mind.
    Second part of your question why is it important to believe in God:
    many people ask themselves the question, what is the purpose of life?
    a little background information about this.
    God does not need any helpers or whatsoever. He created out of compassion and loving-kindness. He is perfectly capable of creating perfect and powerfull creatures like angels, and he did.
    But he also chose to create humans who can be lazy and stubborn and disobediant. we are not so fast, strong or powerfull as the angels.
    But still we could have a higher rank than the angels. This, because we have one feature that the angels do not have: a free will.
    We can choose to obey God on our own or not to. Angels do not have that option. they cannot say they do not want to obey, they are not programmed to do so
    so, despite our weaknesses and other shortcomings, we choose to believe and obey God...out of free will...and that exactly gives us a higher rank than the angels.

    So the purpose of life is actualy: finding out on your own that there is a God and to believe and obey him.
    That is our test on this world, that is our task. I say "test", but it is not really a test. God already knows the outcome of it. he does not need to test us. This "test" is meant for ourselves...to make us witnesses of our very own choices and decisions.
    an example: if we never lived in this world, and God would just create us and threw us directly in Hell, we would complain something like "why God? what did we do to deserve such punishment?" and Gods reply would be something like "because I know you better than you know yourself". But that answer would never satisfy us. By coming to this world first, we will be witnesses of our own acts, choices and decisions. and then we will understand why we are granted to Heaven or thrown in Hell.

    That is why believing in God is important.

    Sorry for the long post, but the answer is just not so easy.
    If I understand you correctly, and please correct me if I do not, would be it be fair to say that you can reconcile modern science and your religion by placing god as the originator of the scientific processes that we can observe in the modern day, such as gravity, evolution, the big bang, etc? You don't deny our current understanding of the universe, you just attribute the existence of the universe as well as the principle laws (thermodynamics, physics, etc) to your god?
    If so, I suppose I can understand this approach. I don't know that I agree that life being spontaneously created without the help of a deity is impossible, but it is very statistically unlikely, and I can definitely see your logic and understand how you have reached your conclusion.

    Regarding the second part of your post, I appreciate your taking the time to answer thoughtfully. With that in mind, what would your opinion be towards someone who, for argument's sake, wasn't sure of the existence of a god, but who nevertheless based their philosophy on the Koran and otherwise lived according to its teachings? Is the final belief in god required, in your opinion, or is an honest attempt in the face of doubt acceptable?
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    If I understand you correctly, and please correct me if I do not, would be it be fair to say that you can reconcile modern science and your religion by placing god as the originator of the scientific processes that we can observe in the modern day, such as gravity, evolution, the big bang, etc? You don't deny our current understanding of the universe, you just attribute the existence of the universe as well as the principle laws (thermodynamics, physics, etc) to your god?
    Yes, you summarized it correctly. The originator, the designer and the initiator of every law of nature and every event happening is God, nothing happens without His will. I do not deny our current understanding of the scientific processes, (if its pure scientific, not like Darwin to promote his atheism)
    So, I do support evolution.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    If so, I suppose I can understand this approach. I don't know that I agree that life being spontaneously created without the help of a deity is impossible, but it is very statistically unlikely, and I can definitely see your logic and understand how you have reached your conclusion.
    If you agree that it is very statistically unlikely that life is being created without God, then what other logical answer can there be? and what exactly is keeping you from believing in God? I do not find that logical.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    Regarding the second part of your post, I appreciate your taking the time to answer thoughtfully. With that in mind, what would your opinion be towards someone who, for argument's sake, wasn't sure of the existence of a god, but who nevertheless based their philosophy on the Koran and otherwise lived according to its teachings? Is the final belief in god required, in your opinion, or is an honest attempt in the face of doubt acceptable?
    No it is not acceptable.
    if it was the other way around:
    someone who was sure of the existence of God, who believed that the Quran was His word, but did not understand the logic behind it, but still trusts that the teaching is correct and lives accordingly, that would be acceptable. Because he might not understand everything but he trusts that he is walking on Gods path.

    Someone who still doubts in the existence of God, but lives accordingly to the teachings of God, would fail the test. you remember what our purpose of life is? to find God, to believe in him.

    So, this person would be rewarded greatly for his good deeds, but in the end he will not be granted into heaven.

    Of course, i am not the one who decides this persons faith in the end, but with such doubt in one's heart, it is very risky.

    I do not know whether you mean yourself with "this person", but if it is you, then I would recommend you to remove this doubt and start truely believing in God. as you can see it is very logical and you do not have to give up logic, reason and science for it.

    Your well being is very dependant on this.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Update:

    Let me please elaborate this a little:
    (The description I give in this post is as far as I think how it would be. to my fellow muslims: If I am wrong, I am sorry, so please correct me.)
    After your death you will be going through some stages:
    first the Barzaq, this is the time between your death and the Day of Judgement. The time in Barzaq is relative. It is different for every individual. Some will experience it as a few seconds, or hours...other will experience it as centuries.
    After the Day of Judgement there is eternal Heaven or eternal Hell. This is an absulute day for every individual. Everyone will be awakened from the death and walk into Heaven or fall in Hell on this day.

    So during the Barzaq you will have these options:
    if you have died with faith in God in your heart, but you have sins, this would be weight against your good deeds and compensated, if you still have sins left over, you will be punished for these greatly. For those people, Barzaq can be one of the pits of Hell.

    if you have died with no faith in God, but you have done a lot of good deeds, this would be weight against your sins and compensated, if you still have good deeds left over, you will be rewarded greatly for this. For those people, Barzaq can be one of the gardens of Heaven.

    Eventually, on the Judgement day, when we all awake at the same time...Believers will be totally sin free as for the disbelievers will be totally good-deeds-free. We all will see the Heaven on the other side of a deep canyon. the bottom of this canyon is Hell.
    the Heaven is only reachable by crossing a bridge, the Siraat bridge. this Brigde is a wide bridge for believers, but it will become very narrow for disbelievers. people who manage to get to the other side (with Gods mercy) will enter Heaven for eternity. others will fall off the bridge into Hell for eternity.


    So, again, it all boils down to believing or not believing in God.


    I have to nuance this a little bit.

    God is mercyfull. if you have faith in God in your heart with the weight of a mustard seed, you will be considered as a believer.
    Eventually, God is the one who will judge over you.
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Greetings,

    format_quote Originally Posted by umie
    If you agree that it is very statistically unlikely that life is being created without God, then what other logical answer can there be? and what exactly is keeping you from believing in God? I do not find that logical.
    Lots of things are statistically unlikely. It doesn't mean they don't happen. People win lotteries, meet friends by chance or survive serious accidents against astronomical odds, but we don't automatically assign a supernatural explanation to these outcomes. In other words, supernatural agency is not the only remaining logical answer.

    Peace
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings,
    Lots of things are statistically unlikely. It doesn't mean they don't happen. People win lotteries, meet friends by chance or survive serious accidents against astronomical odds, but we don't automatically assign a supernatural explanation to these outcomes. In other words, supernatural agency is not the only remaining logical answer.
    Peace
    İ do respect you czgibson, but İ think you've got not idea how big the difference between these odds is.
    Having a serious accident after being struck by lightning...and then survive against astronomical odds...and in the hospital meeting a friend who has survived a similar accident...and then winning the main prize in the lottery every month for the rest of your life...would still be a much much bigger chance then the universe as we know it being created on its own.
    You cannot even compare these chances.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ow and consider this...the Earth is 14 billion years old...it took the earth 14 billion years to get to the state we live in...if in these 14 billion years the earth got struck by a big meteor...everything would be destroyed totally...yet somehow miraculously this did not happen...
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    Greetings,

    format_quote Originally Posted by umie View Post
    İ do respect you czgibson, but İ think you've got not idea how big the difference between these odds is.
    Having a serious accident after being struck by lightning...and then survive against astronomical odds...and in the hospital meeting a friend who has survived a similar accident...and then winning the main prize in the lottery every month for the rest of your life...would still be a much much bigger chance then the universe as we know it being created on its own.
    I respect you too, and I think on the whole you have a rather reasonable approach to thinking about these things.

    My point here is that if something is said to be statistically unlikely, that is not equivalent to saying it can't happen. Therefore it cannot be ruled out by logic alone.

    I've given you some examples of unlikely things, and you say that you have a much more unlikely example, but it really doesn't alter the point.

    And that's even if you could safely assign a probability to the formation of the universe. It's only happened once, as far as we know, so in a sense the probability of the universe forming is 1, because it has.

    I know people have attempted to speculate as rigorously as possible on what the probability might be, but any figures you come across are riven with doubts and wide margins of error due to our total ignorance on what happened before the Big Bang.

    Ow and consider this...the Earth is 14 billion years old...it took the earth 14 billion years to get to the state we live in...if in these 14 billion years the earth got struck by a big meteor...everything would be destroyed totally...yet somehow miraculously this did not happen...
    Telling us about things that have not happened may or may not get us very far with figuring out what may have caused things to happen first. However, the universe has a vast amount of space in it, so the odds against such a cataclysm can be estimated more reliably (i. e. we can safely describe their minimum bounds).

    Peace
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    Re: Why is the Koran True?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    Then I guess my next question is, why is it important to you that your ethos have a sense of urgency? If a system has one try or many, why does that matter? In the Buddhist/Hindu systems, the progression of the soul is not tied to a single lifetime, unlike most religions, so they are only "less urgent" when looked at from an outside perspective. I would imagine other paths would look very rushed to a Buddhist or a Hindu.
    Urgency is everything - we do most things because they stare us right in the face - death. Saying we are going to come back a lot of times (like a video game) the tension and the seriousness is sort of lost in the process. pascal wager on the thing your going to take much more time on the one life and one shot. If your going to get loads of chances you might as well take your time.........but that is a huge risk especially if you are not coming back.

    Looking at life it doesn't seem to be made for us to stay for long anyway - too many things kill you and test you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    format_quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    for argument's sake, wasn't sure of the existence of a god, but who nevertheless based their philosophy on the Koran and otherwise lived according to its teachings? Is the final belief in god required, in your opinion, or is an honest attempt in the face of doubt acceptable?
    Then one would conclude that the person hasn't read or studied the Quran as one of the central claims of the Quran is that is from God. It underpins the whole moral, existential, eschatological message.

    - - - Updated - - -

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings,



    Lots of things are statistically unlikely. It doesn't mean they don't happen. People win lotteries, meet friends by chance or survive serious accidents against astronomical odds, but we don't automatically assign a supernatural explanation to these outcomes. In other words, supernatural agency is not the only remaining logical answer.

    Peace
    Like miracles also - on a serious note Muslims regard the Laws and regularities of nature as an act/habit of God - so if low probability things happen then they have occurred for a reason and not out of some random chance - there isnt demarcation between the supernatural and natural in Islam - Instead we have the seen and unseen. They are all creation's of God.
    Last edited by Zafran; 05-08-2018 at 09:47 PM.
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    Why is the Koran True?

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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